Author Topic: Guns in America  (Read 42369 times)

Chodon

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on: December 19, 2007, 05:14:34 PM
I don't even know where to start with this one.  I'm guessing with my avatar most of you can guess where I stand on the issue.  If not, I will summarize:

There are three types of people (taken from Dave Grossman who has many great books on the topics of personal defense and combat):
1) Sheep - The average person who thinks the government's job is to keep them safe and they do a good job at it.  Unfortunately, this is the majority of the population and it seems the majority of the posters here.
2) Wolves - This is a minority.  These are the people who prey on the sheep.  That is what they do.  They will do it by any means necessary and have no qualms about killing the sheep.
3) Sheepdogs - These people appear as sheep from a distance, and are part of the flock.  However, when the wolf attacks they find out this is not a mere sheep.  They will fight back and protect themselves and the rest of the flock.

The thing with laws about weapons is that the only people that follow them are the sheep and sheepdogs.  The wolves don't care about the laws or they wouldn't be preying on the sheep in the first place!  Laws banning weapons give the wolves the advantage.

As far as Simon's post about Americans killing each other with guns more than in the UK he would find most murders are committed with ILLEGALL handguns.  That doesn't stop criminals (people who are willing to break the law anyway) from using them.  Also, for a number of reasons that could each have their own thread, Americans are most apt to use violence to solve their problems.  It's an unfortunate part of our culture going waaaaaay back to the revolutionary war when we decided we didn't like the British telling us what to do.  It's been there ever since, and it's one of our biggest strengths and our biggest weaknesses.

The only way to prevent you or your loved ones becoming a victim of violence is to become a sheepdog by preparing yourself to defend against the wolves at all times.  The police are not always going to arrive in time.  If you tell Mr. Samurai sword wielding mugger he is in volation of Statute # XYZ subsection 5 he's going to laugh at you.  I, personally, am ready to demonstrate to him he just made the biggest mistake of his life by thinking I'm just another sheep.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Russell Nash

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Reply #1 on: December 19, 2007, 05:35:40 PM
As far as Simon's post about Americans killing each other with guns more than in the UK he would find most murders are committed with ILLEGALL handguns.

I tried, tried, tried to leave this one alone.  I'm sorry in advance to everybody for going even further off topic with this.  I am going to at least limit myself to only one NRA misnomer.

Over 98% of "Illegal handguns" were not imported illegally or originally sold illegally.  They have changed hands illegally.  Mostly by straw purchases, where someone goes into a gun shop to buy a specific gun for someon else who isn't allowed to buy it.  Or they have crossed a border from someplace like Virginia and ended up in DC where it is illegal.  If there were tighter controls on who could get the guns and verification that they continued to possess the gun, the numbers of "Illegal handguns" would decrease.



Chodon

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Reply #2 on: December 19, 2007, 05:49:05 PM
As far as Simon's post about Americans killing each other with guns more than in the UK he would find most murders are committed with ILLEGALL handguns.

I tried, tried, tried to leave this one alone.  I'm sorry in advance to everybody for going even further off topic with this.  I am going to at least limit myself to only one NRA misnomer.

Over 98% of "Illegal handguns" were not imported illegally or originally sold illegally.  They have changed hands illegally.  Mostly by straw purchases, where someone goes into a gun shop to buy a specific gun for someon else who isn't allowed to buy it.  Or they have crossed a border from someplace like Virginia and ended up in DC where it is illegal.  If there were tighter controls on who could get the guns and verification that they continued to possess the gun, the numbers of "Illegal handguns" would decrease.
Exactly.  It goes to show that laws do not stop people from commiting crimes.  The US is flooded with guns.  I think something on the order of 100 million. 
I'm assuming you're saying 98% of handguns are not registered to those who are in posession of them, or they were illegally transported across state lines.  The majority of these are stolen guns.  Not many people are willing to buy a gun for someone they know is a criminal.  If they are, then they are a criminal themselves and probably have a record meaning they can't legally buy guns.
I feel the need to point out that picking up a gun (legally or illegally owned) does not suddenly turn someone into an armed robber or murderer.  People are so convinced that guns hold this magical aura that turns people into a killer.  It's just a chunk of aluminum, steel, and plastic.  The real problem is the criminal intent.  People are going to kill each other like they always have since Kain and Abel.
Does that last line mean Russel is going to come at me with a samurai sword...

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Heradel

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Reply #3 on: December 19, 2007, 07:07:33 PM
The only way to prevent you or your loved ones becoming a victim of violence is to become a sheepdog by preparing yourself to defend against the wolves at all times.  The police are not always going to arrive in time.  If you tell Mr. Samurai sword wielding mugger he is in volation of Statute # XYZ subsection 5 he's going to laugh at you.  I, personally, am ready to demonstrate to him he just made the biggest mistake of his life by thinking I'm just another sheep.

Which raises the problems of escalation, injury due to accidental discharge, and children in the house (both accidental shootings and suicide by gun). Now, I've been to places where having a gun is a sensible precaution and not having one, especially if you have something valuable/are seen as having something valuable, can be suicidal. The United States is not one of these places (Guatemala mostly, for anyone wondering what the dangerous places were). While training, teaching your kids, keeping the gun and the ammo in separate locked boxes hidden away reduces these risks, if you have it for protection you're probably not keeping the gun and ammo separate (or even unloaded) and probably not locked well.

I'm from the DC area, I was on my school's rifle team. I don't think all guns should be banned from private ownership, but DC's handgun ban is sensible, and I don't have a problem banning guns with a decidedly aggressive use. You don't need a M-16 to hunt anything(not that I hunt, I shot black dots). It's like using an ATV in a forest instead of walking or biking or canoeing. When it comes to the second amendment, I've always seen it as a militia's right to bear arms instead of an individual's.

is it illegal in the US to carry a sword on you? like anywhere? just out in the open...?
does it have to be registered?

Depends on the jurisdiction and the size of the blade. I think most places would ban anything over 6-12 inches.

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #4 on: December 19, 2007, 07:22:15 PM
I apologize if I sounded condescending, Simon.  My attempt at satire is aimed as the general philosophy of banning things to solve problems.  That it was aimed at the British in this case is incidental.  If the story had come from Illinois, I would have said "Future Illinois Headlines."  (There's plenty of stupidity on this side of the Atlantic too.)

Russell: Assault weapons ban?  Please.  What proportion of murders are carried out with "assault weapons" as opposed to handguns, hunting rifles and shotguns (or kitchen knives)?  I can't recall any killing that was done with an "assault weapon," although I can think of lots that were done with low-caliber handguns.  Banning assault weapons is a silly stunt to make politicians feel like they're increasing their karma.  Thugs use guns that they can hide in their pants.  Only responsible citizens like Chodon are interested in assault weapons, and I feel safer with huge and deadly weapons in such people's hands.

I find it telling that no one ever calls for a ban on alcohol.  How many of these katana-related deaths involved alcohol?  All of them, I'm guessing?  Alcohol is way more dangerous than guns and swords combined, so why not ban that?  The reason: Politicians can't get away with banning something that the average person wants or needs: People get pissed off.  So when they feel the urge to make useless laws, they go after stuff that only a few people want, like samurai swords or assault rifles.  It's not because those things are more dangerous, just that they're less popular.  Banning them creates the perception that politicians are "doing something" without risking large-scale public objection.

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eytanz

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Reply #5 on: December 19, 2007, 07:34:03 PM
I can't recall any killing that was done with an "assault weapon,"

Really? What about the Omaha mall shooting on December 6th?



Russell Nash

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Reply #6 on: December 19, 2007, 07:37:50 PM
As far as Simon's post about Americans killing each other with guns more than in the UK he would find most murders are committed with ILLEGALL handguns.

I tried, tried, tried to leave this one alone.  I'm sorry in advance to everybody for going even further off topic with this.  I am going to at least limit myself to only one NRA misnomer.

Over 98% of "Illegal handguns" were not imported illegally or originally sold illegally.  They have changed hands illegally.  Mostly by straw purchases, where someone goes into a gun shop to buy a specific gun for someon else who isn't allowed to buy it.  Or they have crossed a border from someplace like Virginia and ended up in DC where it is illegal.  If there were tighter controls on who could get the guns and verification that they continued to possess the gun, the numbers of "Illegal handguns" would decrease.
Exactly.  It goes to show that laws do not stop people from commiting crimes.  The US is flooded with guns.  I think something on the order of 100 million. 
I'm assuming you're saying 98% of handguns are not registered to those who are in posession of them, or they were illegally transported across state lines.  The majority of these are stolen guns.  Not many people are willing to buy a gun for someone they know is a criminal.  If they are, then they are a criminal themselves and probably have a record meaning they can't legally buy guns.
I feel the need to point out that picking up a gun (legally or illegally owned) does not suddenly turn someone into an armed robber or murderer.  People are so convinced that guns hold this magical aura that turns people into a killer.  It's just a chunk of aluminum, steel, and plastic.  The real problem is the criminal intent.  People are going to kill each other like they always have since Kain and Abel.
Does that last line mean Russel is going to come at me with a samurai sword...

Moderator note: Sorry about this folks.  One more post and I'll split it off to it's own thread.

I was going to do a big point by point thing, but it's not worth it.  This is one of the topics where I pay attention to everything I hear about it.  I make a point out of knowing this stuff.  I don't just listen to one special interest group.  I will correct a couple of points you misstated from my last post.

1) I never said all gun owners are criminals.

2) I didn't say 98% of guns are illegal.  I said over 98% (I think it's over 99.8%) of illegal guns are bought legally

3) Samurai swords are for pussies.  Didn't really state it, but I thought my posts from throughout the year made my position clear.

Now instead of getting into an arguement with you about how I'm right and you're not I'm linking to this article that asked where guns used in crime came from.  It deals with Ohio, because Ohio is the 6th largest supplier of guns used in crimes.  Here's to opening paragraph:

Quote
Ohio ranked seventh in the nation as a source of guns used in crimes. 6,135 guns sold in Ohio were used to commit crimes last year . 1,819 guns used in crimes in 39 states last year were first sold in Ohio. 123 crime guns traced by Cleveland police last year were first sold at one suburban dealership -- Atlantic Gun & Tackle in Bedford Heights. Cleveland seized 1,095 guns in 2006 and 956 so far in 2007. Some guns used in crimes are stolen or borrowed. Others, criminals say, are found in bushes or under rocks. The origins of some guns can never be traced because they are too old or the serial numbers are filed off. The majority, though, are bought legally from federally licensed gun dealers and then resold on the streets. And local law enforcement can't do much about it.



Russell Nash

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Reply #7 on: December 19, 2007, 07:57:43 PM




I was referring to people who are stright out willing to kill to protect big illegal business.  It's almost exclusively drug dealers and they carry big firepower.

NPR
Time
USAToday
The Washington Times

All of these mention cops being killed by assault weapons that were banned, but now aren't



Chodon

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Reply #8 on: December 19, 2007, 08:02:52 PM
I'll bet just as many cops died by assault weapons before the ban as after.  All the AWB did was ban import of detachable magazine rifles with 3 or more "deadly features" including flash supressors, bayonet lugs, and pistol grips and ban the import of magazines with a capacity of greater than 10 rounds.  Oooohhh...pistol grips.  Scary!  I'm glad the government is here to protect us against all those bayonettings I've been hearing about.  They also banned the US's most popular squirrel rifle as an "assault weapon", the Ruger 10/22.

I don't think laws preventing the sale/posession of guns will solve gun crime in America.  The market is flooded with them and criminals disregard the laws by definition.  I choose to be a sheepdog instead of a sheep.  I'll leave it at that.

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #9 on: December 19, 2007, 08:38:25 PM
Samurai swords are for pussies.

Ouch!  Hope no samurai were insulted by that.  Watch your back, Russell!
I can't recall any killing that was done with an "assault weapon,"

Really? What about the Omaha mall shooting on December 6th?

Does a semi-automatic rifle count as an "assault weapon?"  I guess I don't know.  Depends on who you ask, I guess.  I was thinking of machine guns...  If so, I guess I do recall a notorious killing with an assault weapon.  Still a small minority of the total, in any case.

The incident really proves Chodon's point, though.  Guys like this are able to commit these mass killings only because their victims are unarmed.  If the average person was armed, this sort of thing would never happen, because the victims would be able to defend themselves.  Laws are ineffective in keeping guns out of evil hands.  This gun was stolen: The killer was breaking the law just by having it.

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eytanz

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Reply #10 on: December 19, 2007, 09:16:36 PM
Does a semi-automatic rifle count as an "assault weapon?"  I guess I don't know.  Depends on who you ask, I guess.  I was thinking of machine guns...  If so, I guess I do recall a notorious killing with an assault weapon.  Still a small minority of the total, in any case.

At least in the US, the term "assault weapon" (as defined by law, such as the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban which expired 3 years ago), always refers to a semi-automatic rifle. Machine guns are not rifles, and as far as I know, they are illegal in the US (which might explain why you don't recall killings using them).

Also, I don't really plan on staying involved in this thread, since this is one of those issues which is more about individual prejudices than any sort of rational thought. I feel that like several other issues, debating this is more a matter of ideology than anything else. I will say two things: First, that the only time I was ever feared my life was at risk from a rifle it was the one assigned to me by the military. And the second, which is in a way direct result of my army experiences, is that if Chodon and Tweedy are actually correct about the fact that you need to be armed to survive a shopping trip, I'd honestly prefer not to survive.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 09:27:31 PM by eytanz »



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #11 on: December 19, 2007, 09:42:59 PM
At least in the US, the term "assault weapon" (as defined by law, such as the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban which expired 3 years ago), always refers to a semi-automatic rifle. Machine guns are not rifles, and as far as I know, they are illegal in the US (which might explain why you don't recall killings using them).
I guess I didn't know that...  I had assumed that "assault weapon" had some relevant meaning.  If all we're talking about is something as pedantic as whether a weapon holds 15 rounds or 30, or whether it has two grips or one, then who gives a shit?  If I am attacking unarmed targets, such factors aren't going to make the least bit of difference.  If I'm a mafioso who fights cops for a living, then I'm not going to be getting my weapons legally anyway and the ban won't effect me.  Unless we're talking military-grade firepower, then it's a meaningless issue.

If Chodon and Tweedy are actually correct about the fact that you need to be armed to survive a shopping trip, I'd honestly prefer not to survive.
A-Okay, if that's what you believe.  Just, please, don't inflict your choice on me.  Let me make my own.

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Czhorat

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Reply #12 on: December 19, 2007, 09:47:04 PM
There are three types of people (taken from Dave Grossman who has many great books on the topics of personal defense and combat):
1) Sheep - The average person who thinks the government's job is to keep them safe and they do a good job at it.  Unfortunately, this is the majority of the population and it seems the majority of the posters here.
2) Wolves - This is a minority.  These are the people who prey on the sheep.  That is what they do.  They will do it by any means necessary and have no qualms about killing the sheep.
3) Sheepdogs - These people appear as sheep from a distance, and are part of the flock.  However, when the wolf attacks they find out this is not a mere sheep.  They will fight back and protect themselves and the rest of the flock.

This type of thinking scares me. It feels like the justification of someone who wants to live in a wild-west fantasy world in which the only law is that which you can take into your own hands. It also goes back to the good/evil discussion we had earlier in response to EP 134: Me and My Shadow. Part of the fallacy, in my opinion, is the idea that you can simply divide people into "good guys" and "bad guys" and that bad acts will always be carried out by bad people. I have very little faith in the average person on the street to be able to store and use a gun responsibly and judiciously. I have no faith that innocent bystanders would not be killed by someone defending his property or life against a perceived threat, that the average gun ownwer wouldn't let his weapon fall into the wrong hands, that people wouldn't buy weapons legally and sell them to those who couldn't legally own them because of failed background checks or other circumstances.

I suppose my question to you, Chodon, is how is society to decide who is a "wolf", who is a "sheepdog", and who is just to short-sighted and careless to own a weapon? Is there some kind of test in your mind, or should we just let everyone arm themselves to the best of their ability and means and let the chips fall where they may?

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eytanz

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Reply #13 on: December 19, 2007, 10:00:12 PM
If Chodon and Tweedy are actually correct about the fact that you need to be armed to survive a shopping trip, I'd honestly prefer not to survive.
A-Okay, if that's what you believe.  Just, please, don't inflict your choice on me.  Let me make my own.

Well, that depends on what you mean by choice here. If you live in a dystopia where your personal safety is threatened whenever you leave the house, you should have the choice to defend yourself. I'm not sure that, if it were up to me, I'd give you the choice of creating such a dystopia to live in.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #14 on: December 19, 2007, 10:04:44 PM
If Chodon and Tweedy are actually correct about the fact that you need to be armed to survive a shopping trip, I'd honestly prefer not to survive.
A-Okay, if that's what you believe.  Just, please, don't inflict your choice on me.  Let me make my own.

Well, that depends on what you mean by choice here. If you live in a dystopia where your personal safety is threatened whenever you leave the house, you should have the choice to defend yourself. I'm not sure that, if it were up to me, I'd give you the choice of creating such a dystopia to live in.

That's just a petty insult, eytanz.  That's beneath you.

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Heradel

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Reply #15 on: December 19, 2007, 10:13:03 PM
If Chodon and Tweedy are actually correct about the fact that you need to be armed to survive a shopping trip, I'd honestly prefer not to survive.
A-Okay, if that's what you believe.  Just, please, don't inflict your choice on me.  Let me make my own.
Seriously? An incident like that happens once every few years. Dividing by malls, the population at large, days, and so on, your odds of getting killed like that are several billion to one. Statistically your odds of shooting yourself with the gun by accident or by suicide, or of a child or other person not trained in firearms safety shooting someone are an order of magnitude or two more likely.

Add to that that the police rushing into a situation like that don't know the shooter from you, that you could panic, or miss and hit someone else. It's a freaking mall. Even if there's no one you can see behind the shooter, a lot of those walls would barely slow down a bullet.

The other problem with your argument is that you're too tightly defined on what happens to you. Governmental policy is made with the masses in mind, and I'd have a very hard time believing that more guns == less violence when taken over the population as a whole. Actually, I don't need to, because Britain has less guns, and as more guns have entered the island, there has been more gun violence. Knives and blackjacks and samurai swords can kill as well, but a gun lets you get back from the person and feel a little disconnected with the act. Not a lot because there's recoil (which is one of the problems with tazers), but enough to make that decision a little easier and less personal than a sword. It's not like it's a new critique of guns either, as I seem to remember Paradise Lost critiquing cannon in the same manner.  

I suppose my question to you, Chodon, is how is society to decide who is a "wolf", who is a "sheepdog", and who is just to short-sighted and careless to own a weapon? Is there some kind of test in your mind, or should we just let everyone arm themselves to the best of their ability and means and let the chips fall where they may?

Also, he's breaking down the population into tightly defined groups that the population doesn't like to be broken down into.

Honestly, if you think there's such a problem with gun violence here that you need a shotgun to get some milk go someplace where they don't respect the rule of law and see if you still think we do afterwards.

As to the assault weapons ban I agree that that definition wasn't the best, and that a better option would probably be the ATF rating guns on an individual basis. That said, by it's definition it's a weapon used in an assault capacity, which has no place anywhere where people are congregating.

And the ban is useful in that it controls the supply of the weapons inside of the states, driving up black market prices. While some will always get through, there will be a smaller population of guns, and their rarity and higher price will price out a lot of the lower-level shooters that form the majority of street violence.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #16 on: December 19, 2007, 10:14:41 PM
I can't recall any killing that was done with an "assault weapon,"

Really? What about the Omaha mall shooting on December 6th?

Does a semi-automatic rifle count as an "assault weapon?"  I guess I don't know.  Depends on who you ask, I guess.  I was thinking of machine guns...  If so, I guess I do recall a notorious killing with an assault weapon.  Still a small minority of the total, in any case.[/quote]

Very broad definition here, but assault weapon is a manufactured word from the mid 80's or so.  It basically means the civillian version of a military rifle.  It's semi-automatic meaning you just keep pulling the trigger and it fires, no re-cocking, and capable of being fired rapidly.  It's uses a rifle cartrage, more powerful than a handgun (there are exceptions I'm sure).  And it has a rifle length barrel, more power and more accurate.

The incident really proves Chodon's point, though.  Guys like this are able to commit these mass killings only because their victims are unarmed.  If the average person was armed, this sort of thing would never happen, because the victims would be able to defend themselves.  Laws are ineffective in keeping guns out of evil hands.  This gun was stolen: The killer was breaking the law just by having it.

He was only breaking the law as much as if he'd driven his mother's car.  He took the gun from his stepfather. Depending on state law it probably depends more on if he has a firearms license whether or not he was breaking the law.


Edit:  Apologies to Eytanz
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 10:29:49 PM by Russell Nash »



qwints

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Reply #17 on: December 19, 2007, 10:14:59 PM

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eytanz

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Reply #18 on: December 19, 2007, 10:19:42 PM
If Chodon and Tweedy are actually correct about the fact that you need to be armed to survive a shopping trip, I'd honestly prefer not to survive.
A-Okay, if that's what you believe.  Just, please, don't inflict your choice on me.  Let me make my own.

Well, that depends on what you mean by choice here. If you live in a dystopia where your personal safety is threatened whenever you leave the house, you should have the choice to defend yourself. I'm not sure that, if it were up to me, I'd give you the choice of creating such a dystopia to live in.

That's just a petty insult, eytanz.  That's beneath you.

Um, what insult? I apologize if I insulted you - I certainly didn't intend to, and for that matter, I still don't see how. I answered your question, albeit in different terms than you put it, but not in a way that seemed to me to be insulting in any way.

Let me reverse this - if I were to tell you "imagine a world in which the government regulates people's lives, to the degree that people do not have a right to privacy from the government, and a wide array of behaviors that are currently acceptable would be prohibited" would you not think of it as a dystopia? Would you give me the choice to create one?

Just to clarify this post since re-reading it it looks a bit unclear: I'm not being sarcastic. I seriously do not understand what about my earlier post is an insult.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 10:39:05 PM by eytanz »



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #19 on: December 19, 2007, 10:42:37 PM
If Chodon and Tweedy are actually correct about the fact that you need to be armed to survive a shopping trip, I'd honestly prefer not to survive.
A-Okay, if that's what you believe.  Just, please, don't inflict your choice on me.  Let me make my own.

Well, that depends on what you mean by choice here. If you live in a dystopia where your personal safety is threatened whenever you leave the house, you should have the choice to defend yourself. I'm not sure that, if it were up to me, I'd give you the choice of creating such a dystopia to live in.

That's just a petty insult, eytanz.  That's beneath you.

Um, what insult? I apologize if I insulted you - I certainly didn't intend to, and for that matter, I still don't see how. I answered your question, albeit in different terms than you put it, but not in a way that seemed to me to be insulting in any way.

Let me reverse this - if I were to tell you "imagine a world in which the government regulates people's lives, to the degree that people do not have a right to privacy from the government, and a wide array of behaviors that are currently acceptable would be prohibited" would you not think of it as a dystopia? Would you give me the choice to create one?

Equating my view with a fantastic worst-case-scenario is indeed an insult.  If (for instance) you were arguing for government-funded health care, it would be insulting for me to equate that with the desire to create a police state.  That is what you did to me: I am arguing the average citizens should be permitted to carry arms, and you equated that with a desire for violent anarchy.  I obviously don't want that and it's insulting for you to insinuate that I do.

If Chodon and Tweedy are actually correct about the fact that you need to be armed to survive a shopping trip, I'd honestly prefer not to survive.
A-Okay, if that's what you believe.  Just, please, don't inflict your choice on me.  Let me make my own.
Seriously? An incident like that happens once every few years. Dividing by malls, the population at large, days, and so on, your odds of getting killed like that are several billion to one. Statistically your odds of shooting yourself with the gun by accident or by suicide, or of a child or other person not trained in firearms safety shooting someone are an order of magnitude or two more likely.
What?  Of course not "seriously!"  Eytanz offered a dichotomous choice as a rhetorical device and I responded in kind.  No one thinks American malls are so dangerous that you're likely to be murdered unless you're packing a shotgun.  Geez.

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eytanz

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Reply #20 on: December 19, 2007, 10:53:16 PM
Equating my view with a fantastic worst-case-scenario is indeed an insult.  If (for instance) you were arguing for government-funded health care, it would be insulting for me to equate that with the desire to create a police state.  That is what you did to me: I am arguing the average citizens should be permitted to carry arms, and you equated that with a desire for violent anarchy.  I obviously don't want that and it's insulting for you to insinuate that I do.

Oh, I see the confusion. Let me clarify - I did not, and do not, believe, or wish to imply, that you desire a violent anarchy. I never even used the word "anarchy". What I did mean is as follows:

You said: "Guys like this are able to commit these mass killings only because their victims are unarmed." I read that as not only advocating that average citizens should be permitted to carry arms, but as saying that you think it's a good idea. As far as I am concerned, any society where it is a good idea for average citizens to carry arms to protect themselves is a dystopia.

In other words, I wasn't saying you desire things to get any more violent or anarchic. I was saying that I think that if you are correct in your analysis of the situation, you already are living in a violent dystopia.

And I wouldn't be offended if you would say I desire to create a police state, since I'm pretty sure that if the kind of ideal government I desire actually existed, you would call it a police state. So, from a certain viewpoint (which, based on what I know of you, you probably possess), you would be justified in saying that, even though the government I desire does not actually resemble any actual police state that ever existed.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #21 on: December 19, 2007, 11:13:44 PM
Oh, I see the confusion. Let me clarify - I did not, and do not, believe, or wish to imply, that you desire a violent anarchy. I never even used the word "anarchy". What I did mean is as follows:

You said: "Guys like this are able to commit these mass killings only because their victims are unarmed." I read that as not only advocating that average citizens should be permitted to carry arms, but as saying that you think it's a good idea. As far as I am concerned, any society where it is a good idea for average citizens to carry arms to protect themselves is a dystopia.

In other words, I wasn't saying you desire things to get any more violent or anarchic. I was saying that I think that if you are correct in your analysis of the situation, you already are living in a violent dystopia.

And I wouldn't be offended if you would say I desire to create a police state, since I'm pretty sure that if the kind of ideal government I desire actually existed, you would call it a police state. So, from a certain viewpoint (which, based on what I know of you, you probably possess), you would be justified in saying that, even though the government I desire does not actually resemble any actual police state that ever existed.

Good.  Apology accepted (or whatever).

I do think that it would be a good thing if the average man (woman) on the street were armed.  But that is not because I think I live in a violent dystopia.  Rather, I think that an armed populace is a good way to prevent the creation of a dystopia, violent or otherwise.

Related to what Heradel was saying: I don't want to carry a gun to the mall because I expect someone to shoot at me.  I want to carry a gun to the mall because I think that makes it less likely that someone will shoot at me.  An armed populace is a harder target, hence the bad guy is less likely to start shooting in the first place.  The common factor in every massacre is that only the killer is armed.

I won't ask what your ideal state looks like...

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eytanz

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Reply #22 on: December 19, 2007, 11:21:26 PM
Related to what Heradel was saying: I don't want to carry a gun to the mall because I expect someone to shoot at me.  I want to carry a gun to the mall because I think that makes it less likely that someone will shoot at me.  An armed populace is a harder target, hence the bad guy is less likely to start shooting in the first place.  The common factor in every massacre is that only the killer is armed.

Well, in that case, to return to your original question, I don't think that if it were up to me I'd give you the choice to do so. I believe that people only have a reactive right to defend themselves, not a proactive right. That is what the police is for (and if the police is not effective, my solution would be to strengthen the police, not the rest of the population).

Quote
I won't ask what your ideal state looks like...
Well, I partially answered that above anyway, but a full answer would take us very far afield from this thread, so I'll leave it to a more appropriate time.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #23 on: December 19, 2007, 11:34:22 PM
And there we have a divergence in philosophy that goes way beyond guns.

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Reply #24 on: December 19, 2007, 11:48:50 PM
I do have a few real questions for Chodon or Mr. Tweedy if either cares to answer. Perhaps the mere asking will make my point a bit clearer.

1) How should it be decided who is to be allowed access to weapons? Would you draw the line at convicted killers or other felons? The mentally disabled? Some other criteria? If there is a line to be drawn, how would you keep people with the legal access to weapons from distributing them to those from whom you wish to withhold such access?

2) Are there any limits on the type of weapon with which you would allow citizens to arm themselves? Would you consider disallowing any of the following: easilly concealed weapons, semi-automatic weapons, full automatic weapons, armor piercing bullets, rocket-propelled grenades, flamethrowers, or anything else? What about body armor?

3) Finally, how would you arm law enforcement personnel? Do you think your answer to questions one and two have any impact on this question and, if so, would it create a safer or more dangerous environment overall?


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