Would you like to be immortal?

[CammoBlammo]

The entire world will just look like a french shopping street or Disney World.

Have you read Cory Doctorow's 'Down and Out in the Magical Kingdom'? From your answer I'm suspecting you have, or we have a nice big coincidence! DOMK is set in Disney World, and humanity has pretty much got the immortaility thing (as in this thread) down pat, except people can be 'backed up' in case of an accident.

His take on how the economy would work is rather interesting. Money and tangible items don't hold value in the same way they do today: the only real currency is 'whoofie' which is related to the respect you have in the community.

You can download the book in pretty well whatever format you prefer here.

[Russell Nash]

The entire world will just look like a french shopping street or Disney World.

Have you read Cory Doctorow's 'Down and Out in the Magical Kingdom'? From your answer I'm suspecting you have, or we have a nice big coincidence! DOMK is set in Disney World, and humanity has pretty much got the immortaility thing (as in this thread) down pat, except people can be 'backed up' in case of an accident.

I subscribe to craphound in my iTunes, but it's all part of my backlog that I never seem to get around to.  The only Doctorow I've listened to or read comes from EscapePod.

I guess great minds just think alike.

[ClintMemo]

Everyone will be trying to do everything.

I, for one, will NOT be trying certified public accountancy. 
(..wish I had a Monty Python picture to put here.)


But that brings up an interesting thought....
I could see societies drafting people into compulsory menial duty.  Once per century, everyone has to spend a decade as a ditch digger or picking up trash along the side of the road.

[Russell Nash]

Everyone will be trying to do everything.

I, for one, will NOT be trying certified public accountancy. 
(..wish I had a Monty Python picture to put here.)


But that brings up an interesting thought....
I could see societies drafting people into compulsory menial duty.  Once per century, everyone has to spend a decade as a ditch digger or picking up trash along the side of the road.

I think there will always be people who need to work.  With everybody trying to invest prices will go through the roof, but it would be unsustainable.  Just like it was with housing this past couple of years and tech before that.  Most investers will boom and bust.  Inflation would be totally out of hand.  We'd end up back where we are.  Some would be very rich.  Some would be comfortable. Most would be scratchy to keep there heads above water.

[gelee]

agreed. but running the circle 100 times instead of two times would be a definite improvement to me.

I could not have put it better myself.

Everyone will be trying to do everything.  It seems to me everywhere would be packed full of people trying to do stuff and only really driving up the prices and cheapening the experience.  Absolutely everywhere will become so commercial that every place will look just like the last.

 It's already happening if you go to eastern Europe.  Everyone thought western Europe was too commercial, so they started going to Prague.  Prague became too commercial they moved on to Budapest.  I was there this summer and it's no different than Prague. 

The entire world will just look like a french shopping street or Disney World.

I can totally live with that.  There will always be something to do that I havent' done.  I'm OK with everyone else trying to do it too.  There will always be people and places where things are different from what I know.  The places that I know will change enough while I'm out getting to know new places that they will be new places themselves when I get back.
As for the dilution of other cultures, or my own, that is perfectly normal.
Culture is NOT static, except in Disney World.  Cultures change.  Do you see everyone in Athens walking around in togas?  Do you think they should?  Of course not.  So, Budapest becomes like Prague, and Atlanta becomes like Chicago.
That's OK. 
Chicago is becoming like Montreal, and Prague is becoming like Paris.  Once upon a time, every major European city was becoming like Paris.  Before that, everything West of the Volga was becoming like Rome, which had previously become like Athens, which itself had become like Persiapolis...ad infinatum, ad nauseum.  This is the nature of human society.  It just happens.  And I, for one, would love to be able to watch it happen.

[Russell Nash]

agreed. but running the circle 100 times instead of two times would be a definite improvement to me.

I could not have put it better myself.

Everyone will be trying to do everything.  It seems to me everywhere would be packed full of people trying to do stuff and only really driving up the prices and cheapening the experience.  Absolutely everywhere will become so commercial that every place will look just like the last.

 It's already happening if you go to eastern Europe.  Everyone thought western Europe was too commercial, so they started going to Prague.  Prague became too commercial they moved on to Budapest.  I was there this summer and it's no different than Prague. 

The entire world will just look like a french shopping street or Disney World.

I can totally live with that.  There will always be something to do that I havent' done.  I'm OK with everyone else trying to do it too.  There will always be people and places where things are different from what I know.  The places that I know will change enough while I'm out getting to know new places that they will be new places themselves when I get back.
As for the dilution of other cultures, or my own, that is perfectly normal.
Culture is NOT static, except in Disney World.  Cultures change.  Do you see everyone in Athens walking around in togas?  Do you think they should?  Of course not.  So, Budapest becomes like Prague, and Atlanta becomes like Chicago.
That's OK. 
Chicago is becoming like Montreal, and Prague is becoming like Paris.  Once upon a time, every major European city was becoming like Paris.  Before that, everything West of the Volga was becoming like Rome, which had previously become like Athens, which itself had become like Persiapolis...ad infinatum, ad nauseum.  This is the nature of human society.  It just happens.  And I, for one, would love to be able to watch it happen.

The point was that if you get set down on the street in Paris, Prague, Budapest, Vienna, etc.  You can't tell which city you're in.  There isn't local color.  There's international chain stores.

[gelee]

In my experience, it rather depends on the street.  Granted, my experience with Europe is limited.  I've only spent time in Rome and Paris, plus some layover time in Dublin and Dusseldorf.  Each seemed very different and distinct, especially the Dusseldorf airport.  Has anyone ever been in that airport?  That was the most surreal place I have ever seen.
I should also qualify my remarks by stating that I live near Atlanta.  It is practicly defined by it's lack of local flavour.

[Russell Nash]

In my experience, it rather depends on the street.  Granted, my experience with Europe is limited.  I've only spent time in Rome and Paris, plus some layover time in Dublin and Dusseldorf.  Each seemed very different and distinct, especially the Dusseldorf airport.  Has anyone ever been in that airport?  That was the most surreal place I have ever seen.
I should also qualify my remarks by stating that I live near Atlanta.  It is practicly defined by it's lack of local flavour.

I didn't mean every street.  I meant the main drag.  The center of the tourist areas.  It then branches out from there to cover the shopping areas for the locals.  Once malls start showing up it's over.

My point was that with more people spending thier time seeing everything this would speed up and everything would homoginize even further. 

[eytanz]

In my experience, it rather depends on the street.  Granted, my experience with Europe is limited.  I've only spent time in Rome and Paris, plus some layover time in Dublin and Dusseldorf.  Each seemed very different and distinct, especially the Dusseldorf airport.  Has anyone ever been in that airport?  That was the most surreal place I have ever seen.
I should also qualify my remarks by stating that I live near Atlanta.  It is practicly defined by it's lack of local flavour.

I didn't mean every street.  I meant the main drag.  The center of the tourist areas.  It then branches out from there to cover the shopping areas for the locals.  Once malls start showing up it's over.

My point was that with more people spending thier time seeing everything this would speed up and everything would homoginize even further. 

I think that's the first thing you posted on this thread I disagree with. I think that if there is any sort of substantial (i.e. more than a few hundred) population of wealthy (or affluent middle class) immortals whose existence is not a secret, there will quickly arise an industry of people generating experiences for them. Whether it's ever changing tourist attractions or whatnot, I think there will always be new things to see and do, as long as there are people who can imagine new variations for people to provide.

[DDog]

The entire world will just look like a french shopping street or Disney World.

Have you read Cory Doctorow's 'Down and Out in the Magical Kingdom'? From your answer I'm suspecting you have, or we have a nice big coincidence! DOMK is set in Disney World, and humanity has pretty much got the immortaility thing (as in this thread) down pat, except people can be 'backed up' in case of an accident.

His take on how the economy would work is rather interesting. Money and tangible items don't hold value in the same way they do today: the only real currency is 'whoofie' which is related to the respect you have in the community.

You can download the book in pretty well whatever format you prefer here.

For stories including person back-ups in case of death and new economies, I love "The Green Leopard Plague."

[Thaurismunths]

But this brand of immortality doesn't change that, it only elongates the circle.
There is nothing keep you from getting hit by a car, getting mugged, shot, stabbed, or crushed in a snow cave. You have only added years to your life, and you have years enough as it is. If anything this immortality will only let you put it off longer and longer until you end up just another million-to-one anecdote.

agreed. but running the circle 100 times instead of two times would be a definite improvement to me.

Why?

[wakela]

There is nothing keep you from getting hit by a car, getting mugged, shot, stabbed, or crushed in a snow cave. You have only added years to your life, and you have years enough as it is. If anything this immortality will only let you put it off longer and longer until you end up just another million-to-one anecdote.

You're right.  We should ban snow caves, at least.

Ha! Good luck trying to ban snow caves in the US.  The special interest groups would never let it happen.  Looks like they are trying to ban then in the UK, but only the fake ones.

[wakela]

An interesting article about longevity at The Economist here.  They mention the concept of the "longevity escape velocity."  The first longevity treatment you receive may let you live long enough for the next treatment to be developed, and then the next and the next.  Then one day you realize it's been 3,000 years, and all of Iapetus looks like a French shopping street. 

[sirana]

But this brand of immortality doesn't change that, it only elongates the circle.
There is nothing keep you from getting hit by a car, getting mugged, shot, stabbed, or crushed in a snow cave. You have only added years to your life, and you have years enough as it is. If anything this immortality will only let you put it off longer and longer until you end up just another million-to-one anecdote.

agreed. but running the circle 100 times instead of two times would be a definite improvement to me.

Why?

Because there are so many things that I would like to do that I wouldn't be able to do them in my normal lifetime, especially if I also want to have a career and a family. 100 years is just not enough to do everything that I would like to do.
When you have "only" 100 years you have to make economical decisions on what things to best spend your time. Maybe I would like to spend 20 years in a Tibetian monastary meditating, but if I do it I won't be able to also have good career in my chosen field.
If you have 1000 years you could simply do both, because 20 years represent a much smaller slice of your complete life expectancy. So you can "waste" your time on things that would be "inefficient" to do because they are not on top of your list.   

[Thaurismunths]

But this brand of immortality doesn't change that, it only elongates the circle.
There is nothing keep you from getting hit by a car, getting mugged, shot, stabbed, or crushed in a snow cave. You have only added years to your life, and you have years enough as it is. If anything this immortality will only let you put it off longer and longer until you end up just another million-to-one anecdote.

agreed. but running the circle 100 times instead of two times would be a definite improvement to me.

Why?

Because there are so many things that I would like to do that I wouldn't be able to do them in my normal lifetime, especially if I also want to have a career and a family. 100 years is just not enough to do everything that I would like to do.
When you have "only" 100 years you have to make economical decisions on what things to best spend your time. Maybe I would like to spend 20 years in a Tibetian monastary meditating, but if I do it I won't be able to also have good career in my chosen field.
If you have 1000 years you could simply do both, because 20 years represent a much smaller slice of your complete life expectancy. So you can "waste" your time on things that would be "inefficient" to do because they are not on top of your list.   

What about scale?
With 100 years 20 represents a significant portion of time. 1/5 of your life.
With 1000 years 20 represents an insignificant portion of time. 1/50 of your life.
What keeps you from saying "I want to spend 200 years doing this?"
Also, if you're willing to commit an insignificant portion of your infinite life doing something like meditating in a monastery, why not spend an insignificant portion of your current life doing that same thing? Why not spend 2 of your current 100 years meditating?

[gelee]

But this brand of immortality doesn't change that, it only elongates the circle.
There is nothing keep you from getting hit by a car, getting mugged, shot, stabbed, or crushed in a snow cave. You have only added years to your life, and you have years enough as it is. If anything this immortality will only let you put it off longer and longer until you end up just another million-to-one anecdote.

agreed. but running the circle 100 times instead of two times would be a definite improvement to me.

Why?

Because there are so many things that I would like to do that I wouldn't be able to do them in my normal lifetime, especially if I also want to have a career and a family. 100 years is just not enough to do everything that I would like to do.
When you have "only" 100 years you have to make economical decisions on what things to best spend your time. Maybe I would like to spend 20 years in a Tibetian monastary meditating, but if I do it I won't be able to also have good career in my chosen field.
If you have 1000 years you could simply do both, because 20 years represent a much smaller slice of your complete life expectancy. So you can "waste" your time on things that would be "inefficient" to do because they are not on top of your list.   

What about scale?
With 100 years 20 represents a significant portion of time. 1/5 of your life.
With 1000 years 20 represents an insignificant portion of time. 1/50 of your life.
What keeps you from saying "I want to spend 200 years doing this?"
Also, if you're willing to commit an insignificant portion of your infinite life doing something like meditating in a monastery, why not spend an insignificant portion of your current life doing that same thing? Why not spend 2 of your current 100 years meditating?

First, the assessment of significant or insignificant is relative in your example.  The amount of time it takes me to see a museum or read a book won't change if I stop aging.  I would just be able to do more of it.
Also, I can't even afford to spend two years on a diversion.  I don't know what you do for a living, but I would be professionaly and financially ruined if I stopped working for two years.  Remember, I've only got another 50 years to live, maybe 60 if I'm lucky.  I don't have time to save up the money to do something like that, nor time to recover from the financial problems that it would bring.  My wife would probably leave me, too.
With a potentially indefinate life span, there would be nothing to stop me from spending 200 years on a diversion.  I could spend however long I needed saving up for the adventure.  How cool would it be to have the option?  I think that would be great.
A lot of this goes back to my personal opinion that more living is better than less living.  I just can't see any personal down-side to living forever.

[sirana]

Also, if you're willing to commit an insignificant portion of your infinite life doing something like meditating in a monastery, why not spend an insignificant portion of your current life doing that same thing? Why not spend 2 of your current 100 years meditating?

Because two years of meditation will just be me sitting around beeing bored, but 20 years will mean me achieving enlightenment.
I'm joking, I'm joking.

There are simply so many things that one could do if one had more time. Read every book that has been written. Be an in depth expert(meaning an university education and 20 year working practise) in every field that interests you. See every city on the Earth (and the ones that will pop up on the Moon, Mars, Europa.) I could go on. 

To turn this around, do you think that you will be able to achieve everything that you'd like to do in your live in the about 100 years that you have?

[DDog]

There are simply so many things that one could do if one had more time. Read every book that has been written. Be an in depth expert(meaning an university education and 20 year working practise) in every field that interests you. See every city on the Earth (and the ones that will pop up on the Moon, Mars, Europa.) I could go on.

I wonder how Xeno's Paradox would be affected if effective time were no longer finite. Could you ever catch up with "every book that has been written"--or would it not matter because you would always have more time later to get to the ones that were written while you were trying to catch up.

[Thaurismunths]

Also, if you're willing to commit an insignificant portion of your infinite life doing something like meditating in a monastery, why not spend an insignificant portion of your current life doing that same thing? Why not spend 2 of your current 100 years meditating?

Because two years of meditation will just be me sitting around beeing bored, but 20 years will mean me achieving enlightenment.
I'm joking, I'm joking.

There are simply so many things that one could do if one had more time. Read every book that has been written. Be an in depth expert(meaning an university education and 20 year working practise) in every field that interests you. See every city on the Earth (and the ones that will pop up on the Moon, Mars, Europa.) I could go on. 

To turn this around, do you think that you will be able to achieve everything that you'd like to do in your live in the about 100 years that you have?

But that's just it, you'll never do everything you want. You'll always have more things to do and not enough time to do them. You will only accomplish relatively more in your extended life.
Also, you haven't added anything that improves your chances of survival. In the long run statistics will catch up with you. Parachutes fail. Wars happen. Growths appear on your neck.

[sirana]

But that's just it, you'll never do everything you want. You'll always have more things to do and not enough time to do them. You will only accomplish relatively more in your extended life.

That is exactly my point. I will accomplish more in my extended life. I am aware that I will never be able to do everything I ever wanted. But in 1000 years I would be able to more of the things I'd like to do and I would find that wonderful.

It would be similar to your argument to say: "Well, since you never could do everything you'd like to do it doesn't matter if you had 8 years or 80 years of your life left."
I doubt that you would choose the 8 years over the 80 years. So why would you choose 80 years over 800?

[Thaurismunths]

But that's just it, you'll never do everything you want. You'll always have more things to do and not enough time to do them. You will only accomplish relatively more in your extended life.

That is exactly my point. I will accomplish more in my extended life. I am aware that I will never be able to do everything I ever wanted. But in 1000 years I would be able to more of the things I'd like to do and I would find that wonderful.

It would be similar to your argument to say: "Well, since you never could do everything you'd like to do it doesn't matter if you had 8 years or 80 years of your life left."
I doubt that you would choose the 8 years over the 80 years. So why would you choose 80 years over 800?

Because of all the global problems that would arise, the grief of losing everyone I know, that if I were immortal but just as frail as I am now fear of death would consume me, and I think suicide is retarded. I would rather have things move on in a natural order.
I'm not eschewing all immortality, just the one you're offering.

[sirana]

Because of all the global problems that would arise, the grief of losing everyone I know, that if I were immortal but just as frail as I am now fear of death would consume me, and I think suicide is retarded. I would rather have things move on in a natural order.
I'm not eschewing all immortality, just the one you're offering.

Fair enough. These are all reasons that I can understand, even if I don't necessarily share them or give them the same weight.

[Thaurismunths]

Because of all the global problems that would arise, the grief of losing everyone I know, that if I were immortal but just as frail as I am now fear of death would consume me, and I think suicide is retarded. I would rather have things move on in a natural order.
I'm not eschewing all immortality, just the one you're offering.

Fair enough. These are all reasons that I can understand, even if I don't necessarily share them or give them the same weight.

Thank you. I feel much the same way about your reasoning and was about to say so.
Also, I'd like to thank you for the topic. Shwankie have been talking about it on and off all week.

[stePH]

At the same time, if immortality is widespread and culturally acceptable, it would seem to inevitably lead to over-population, and knock our already non-sustainable way of life totally off balance. There would be horrible resource wars - the only realistic way for an immortal community to survive is to eliminate all the procreators (mortal or immortal), to make sure that the population is stable. Even if this is achieved non-violently, I still don't think I want to live in a world with no children.

I, on the other hand, would find such a world ideal 

[ClintMemo]

Some issues that I haven't seen brought up in this:
1) You couldn't possibly read every book ever written because the world produces books faster than you can consume them  (every book you'd ever want to read might be possible)
2) Immortality wouldn't be a path to becoming an expert in everything. Your brain is only so big.  Immortality won't make it bigger and it won't make you smarter - wiser perhaps, but not smarter.
3) Just because you could live forever doesn't mean your memory would last forever.  You could end up doing the same things every few hundred years and never know it, or maybe live in constant deja-vu.


All things considered I would still choose to live until Santa's Heat Death villain eats me.