art you cannot appreciate without destroying it

[Listener]

http://floggingbabel.blogspot.com/2008/01/bottled-stories.html

So this guy writes short-short stories, puts them in bottles, seals the bottles, and gives them away at charity auctions or for special occasions.

Then he takese very record of the story -- saved files, notes, printouts, edits, whatever -- and destroys them.  The only copy of the story is inside the bottle.

So, to appreciate the art that is the story, you must destroy the art that is the bottle.

I find it a very clever idea.

[eytanz]

That does not appeal to me, though I cannot tell you why.

For me, fine food would be the ultimate artform you must destroy to appreciate (maybe I'm just influenced by the fact that my most recent EP listen was "The Girlfriends of Dorian Gray")...

[Heradel]

Food's not really unique though. Certainly one dish will not be exactly the same to the molecular level, but unless the dish will only be made once and never recreated (the meat of the last of a species or something [not that you would, or that the person that was wouldn't be a horrible person]) it doesn't have the same unique appeal. Same problem with performances. There will be standout ones but, especially with theater, performances are done in such a way they can be recreated night after night.

Maybe if the artwork was at the quantum level and to observe it you would forever alter it.

And thinking about it, I'm pretty sure there's some sort of scanning technology that could read the story in the bottle, though I'd guess that the story could never live up to the expectation.

[DKT]

That's pretty cool although I don't think I could ever do it.  It's an interesting concept, though, to read the story or to have the object, but not both. 

It could also be the best Dadaist art of the 21st century.  Imagine cracking it open after paying a decent amount at a charity event only to realize you'd read that Swanwick story in last years "Year's best SF&F" anthology.

[Thaurismunths]

Personally I find that to be an amazing concept and I don't know which side would win.
I love the idea of a story in a bottle, kind of a Schroedinger's Story. It could be the greatest, most life-altering, mind-blowing story ever written, or it could rival some of William Topaz McGonagall's works.
I suspect I would keep it on the shelf for some years, crack it open and read it, then leave it on the shelf as a reminder.

[Russell Nash]

How would you open it?  Do you smash the bottle or do you cut it in half?  Then do you keep the bottle (maybe in another bottle) or throw it away?

[Simon]

So it's a fortune cookie...

But a fortune cookie as art, that doesn't taste as good.

Hmmm...

[Alasdair5000]

I rather like that:)  Reminds me of something a local artist did a little while back, producing faded concert t shirts for concerts that never actually happened.

[Russell Nash]

I rather like that:)  Reminds me of something a local artist did a little while back, producing faded concert t shirts for concerts that never actually happened.

That I like.  Was it like Ritchie Valens and Bob Dylan's gig in '71 or fictional bands?

[Alasdair5000]

Real artists, fake concerts.

[DDog]

Food's not really unique though. Certainly one dish will not be exactly the same to the molecular level, but unless the dish will only be made once and never recreated (the meat of the last of a species or something [not that you would, or that the person that was wouldn't be a horrible person]) it doesn't have the same unique appeal.

Neil Gaiman's "Sunbird."

[Heradel]

Neil Gaiman's "Sunbird."

I remembered that story post-posting.

[wakela]

I've been homebrewing beer for a few years now.  There are so many variables you can't control (well, you can --professional breweries do it--, but it becomes impractical) that you could brew the exact same recipe twice and different results.  Plus, the yeast continues to be active in the bottle, so the character of the beer will change over time.  The first bottle tastes different from the last.  So when I'm down to the last few bottles of a batch that I really liked, I wonder if I should save them.  But that doesn't work either.  It's always with a little sadness that I take that last swallow.  But I make sure I do so when I'm whipping up the next batch to ease the sting.

[Listener]

I've been homebrewing beer for a few years now.  There are so many variables you can't control (well, you can --professional breweries do it--, but it becomes impractical) that you could brew the exact same recipe twice and different results.  Plus, the yeast continues to be active in the bottle, so the character of the beer will change over time.  The first bottle tastes different from the last.  So when I'm down to the last few bottles of a batch that I really liked, I wonder if I should save them.  But that doesn't work either.  It's always with a little sadness that I take that last swallow.  But I make sure I do so when I'm whipping up the next batch to ease the sting.

That's like me with pickles.  Every time I make a batch of pickles, the recipe is slightly different.  I usually send a jar to my in-laws (my wife sees them most days when dropping off our daughter) and sometimes they like them, sometimes they don't.  But if they tell me a recipe they like... well... oh well... not like I'll actually remember what went into them.

[wakela]

I've been homebrewing beer for a few years now.  There are so many variables you can't control (well, you can --professional breweries do it--, but it becomes impractical) that you could brew the exact same recipe twice and different results.  Plus, the yeast continues to be active in the bottle, so the character of the beer will change over time.  The first bottle tastes different from the last.  So when I'm down to the last few bottles of a batch that I really liked, I wonder if I should save them.  But that doesn't work either.  It's always with a little sadness that I take that last swallow.  But I make sure I do so when I'm whipping up the next batch to ease the sting.

That's like me with pickles.  Every time I make a batch of pickles, the recipe is slightly different.  I usually send a jar to my in-laws (my wife sees them most days when dropping off our daughter) and sometimes they like them, sometimes they don't.  But if they tell me a recipe they like... well... oh well... not like I'll actually remember what went into them.

Boy, I sure like a good pickle, that's no lie.  I'm going to have to google some pickle making resources.  Do you have a favorite?  A friend of mine's grandmother makes painfully spicy pickles that we just can'T stop eating.
For some reason, since getting into beer brewing, I've been attracted to making things that take a long time and that have some lack-of-control element.  Like beer, cheese, and bread.  In all those cases you provide the raw materials, but yeast ( and sometimes mold in the case of cheese) does the work for you.  My understanding is the picking is more like soaking stuff.  There isn't a living, biological element.  Is this right?

[Russell Nash]

I've been homebrewing beer for a few years now.  There are so many variables you can't control (well, you can --professional breweries do it--, but it becomes impractical) that you could brew the exact same recipe twice and different results.  Plus, the yeast continues to be active in the bottle, so the character of the beer will change over time.  The first bottle tastes different from the last.  So when I'm down to the last few bottles of a batch that I really liked, I wonder if I should save them.  But that doesn't work either.  It's always with a little sadness that I take that last swallow.  But I make sure I do so when I'm whipping up the next batch to ease the sting.

That's like me with pickles.  Every time I make a batch of pickles, the recipe is slightly different.  I usually send a jar to my in-laws (my wife sees them most days when dropping off our daughter) and sometimes they like them, sometimes they don't.  But if they tell me a recipe they like... well... oh well... not like I'll actually remember what went into them.

Boy, I sure like a good pickle, that's no lie.  I'm going to have to google some pickle making resources.  Do you have a favorite?  A friend of mine's grandmother makes painfully spicy pickles that we just can'T stop eating.
For some reason, since getting into beer brewing, I've been attracted to making things that take a long time and that have some lack-of-control element.  Like beer, cheese, and bread.  In all those cases you provide the raw materials, but yeast ( and sometimes mold in the case of cheese) does the work for you.  My understanding is the picking is more like soaking stuff.  There isn't a living, biological element.  Is this right?

My mother used to do the pickle thing.  I remember seeing the cooker on the counter top for what seemed like weeks.  Maybe this is why I don't like pickles.

[Darwinist]

My mother used to do the pickle thing.  I remember seeing the cooker on the counter top for what seemed like weeks.  Maybe this is why I don't like pickles.

I love pickes for the same reason.  My mom and aunts would take over the kitchen for extended periods and can all kinds of stuff:  pickles (cukes), tomatoes, corn, etc.  It seemed llike the house smelled like dill for weeks.   I miss that. 

[Listener]

I use the recipe from Instructables, but use more vinegar than they suggest, lots of onions (sweet or green), and dill.  And I use both white and red-wine vinegar.  Also, about double the garlic.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Refrigerator-Pickles---Quick-n_-Easy/

I prefer these because they're less... pickly, I guess.  I mean, I like a good pickly pickle, but I also like the less-pickly, non-sweet kind too.

[Thaurismunths]

The first bottle tastes different from the last.

Not if you drink them fast enough.
Back at Hooligan House we use to have 25 gal. going at a time, and Tuesday we would bottle & unbottle.

For some reason, since getting into beer brewing, I've been attracted to making things that take a long time and that have some lack-of-control element.  Like beer, cheese, and bread.

Do you make cheese?
How 'bout bread?

[wakela]

The first bottle tastes different from the last.

Not if you drink them fast enough.
Back at Hooligan House we use to have 25 gal. going at a time, and Tuesday we would bottle & unbottle.

Very true.  Maybe that's my problem.  But since it is such an effort to brew a batch I tend to horde them for as long as I can. 
25 gal is very respectable.  So you had 5gal * 5 going at any one time?  All the same, all different?  Extract or all grain? Any favorite recipes?

With a wife and small kid I find it hard to take half a day to make a batch.  Wife is always looking in the kitchen asking when I'm going to be done.  "Hey, I'm cooking and cleaning.  You always tell me you want me to do more cooking and cleaning."  <-- ineffective strategy.

For some reason, since getting into beer brewing, I've been attracted to making things that take a long time and that have some lack-of-control element.  Like beer, cheese, and bread.

Do you make cheese?
How 'bout bread?

Nope.  Just the thought appeals to me.  I've been listening to some homebrewing podcasts, and they sometimes talk about making cheese and bread, and it peaked my interest.  Apparently, when making sourdough bread you cultivate the yeast by just leaving a flour and water mixture sitting on the counter top for a few days (weeks?).  It picks up whatever yeast happens to be floating around your kitchen.  This means the bread will taste different based on your location, which is a pretty weird thing to factor into a recipe.  Then you have this alien yeast civilization that you need to care for and keep alive to start your next loaf.  It's somehow a science fictiony idea even though it's one of the oldest human activities.
How about yourself? 

[DDog]

Apparently, when making sourdough bread you cultivate the yeast by just leaving a flour and water mixture sitting on the counter top for a few days (weeks?).  It picks up whatever yeast happens to be floating around your kitchen.  This means the bread will taste different based on your location, which is a pretty weird thing to factor into a recipe.  Then you have this alien yeast civilization that you need to care for and keep alive to start your next loaf.  It's somehow a science fictiony idea even though it's one of the oldest human activities.

Anyone want to write that EP or PP flash story?

[Thaurismunths]

Very true.  Maybe that's my problem.  But since it is such an effort to brew a batch I tend to horde them for as long as I can. 
25 gal is very respectable.  So you had 5gal * 5 going at any one time?  All the same, all different?  Extract or all grain? Any favorite recipes?

Yep. Actually between the three of us we had 7 carboys, but a few were always at some stage of empty.
We were running extract and partial mash, but never got around to running all grain. We figured that we could be making beer for something like $.50 a liter. My brother has an all grain setup that he rarely uses (heretic!) and which I might take if I get the room for it.
As for recipes I'm afraid Shea was the brew master of the house. I just put stuff in the kettle and made sure it didn't boil over. Most of what we did was from recipes we got at Michigan Brewing Company, amazing beer there, which we would tweak a little.

Apparently, when making sourdough bread you cultivate the yeast by just leaving a flour and water mixture sitting on the counter top for a few days (weeks?).  It picks up whatever yeast happens to be floating around your kitchen.  This means the bread will taste different based on your location, which is a pretty weird thing to factor into a recipe.  Then you have this alien yeast civilization that you need to care for and keep alive to start your next loaf.  It's somehow a science fictiony idea even though it's one of the oldest human activities.
How about yourself? 

I love to bake. Love it even as much as microbrews.
My dad used to bake sandwich bread ever week when I was a kid, and baking fresh loaves of exotic breads has always had this romantic appeal. Nothing is better than getting up stupidly early on a Saturday morning, putting on NPR, and baking a couple pans of cinnamon rolls.
My current project is sourdough; I can't get them to rise quite right. It's probably because I'm not keeping the starter fresh enough when I make the dough. Making the starter is every bit as easy as you've said: 1) Leave paste uncovered on counter for a few days. 2) Pour out half of paste, add more flour and water. 3) Repeat step 2 every day for a week or so, then do it once a week and put it in the fridge between feedings. My current starter is based on wild yeasts I got off of wild grapes. The white powdery stuff on red grapes is wild yeast, usable for breads, beers, wines, and vinegars.
As for cheeses, that's Shwankie's forte.

edit:spelling

[wakela]

Thread derailment imminent!

Very true.  Maybe that's my problem.  But since it is such an effort to brew a batch I tend to horde them for as long as I can. 
25 gal is very respectable.  So you had 5gal * 5 going at any one time?  All the same, all different?  Extract or all grain? Any favorite recipes?

Yep. Actually between the three of us we had 7 carboys, but a few were always at some stage of empty.
We were running extract and partial mash, but never got around to running all grain. We figured that we could be making beer for something like $.50 a liter. My brother has an all grain setup that he rarely uses (heretic!) and which I might take if I get the room for it.

This was when you were in college?  Hell, I was wasting time on Super Mario, and you were making beer.  You came out ahead in that deal; it's doesn't matter what we actually got our degrees in. 
Here in Japan a carboy will run you about US$100. So I have one.  I haven't jumped into all grain or kegging because the recommended equipment I read about isn't always available here.  Or I just don't know how to find it. 

Apparently, when making sourdough bread you cultivate the yeast by just leaving a flour and water mixture sitting on the counter top for a few days (weeks?).  It picks up whatever yeast happens to be floating around your kitchen.  This means the bread will taste different based on your location, which is a pretty weird thing to factor into a recipe.  Then you have this alien yeast civilization that you need to care for and keep alive to start your next loaf.  It's somehow a science fictiony idea even though it's one of the oldest human activities.
How about yourself? 

I love to bake. Love it even as much as microbrews.
My dad used to bake sandwich bread ever week when I was a kid, and baking fresh loaves of exotic breads has always had this romantic appeal. Nothing is better than getting up stupidly early on a Saturday morning, putting on NPR, and baking a couple pans of cinnamon rolls.
My current project is sourdough; I can't get them to rise quite right. It's probably because I'm not keeping the starter fresh enough when I make the dough. Making the starter is every bit as easy as you've said: 1) Leave paste uncovered on counter for a few days. 2) Pour out half of paste, add more flour and water. 3) Repeat step 2 every day for a week or so, then do it once a week and put it in the fridge between feedings. My current starter is based on wild yeasts I got off of wild grapes. The white powdery stuff on red grapes is wild yeast, usable for breads, beers, wines, and vinegars.
As for cheeses, that's Shwankie's forte.

edit:spelling

This was the podcast I heard about making sourdough. 
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio
Scroll down to the Januray 10 episode.  Not sure if they say anything new for you, but you never know.

What do you think of bread machines?  Are they heretical?  I gave my wife a bread machine a few years back, but she's rarely used it.  Even if it's not as good as scratch, it's still much better than the supermarket. 

Wife just got her own coffee roaster.  With that, a carboy, and a sourdough starter we may as well just start our own off-the-grid commune. 

[wakela]

I use the recipe from Instructables, but use more vinegar than they suggest, lots of onions (sweet or green), and dill.  And I use both white and red-wine vinegar.  Also, about double the garlic.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Refrigerator-Pickles---Quick-n_-Easy/

I prefer these because they're less... pickly, I guess.  I mean, I like a good pickly pickle, but I also like the less-pickly, non-sweet kind too.

Thanks!
The pickles I produced with this process were positively peachy!  Perhaps you would partake of the products of this pickling procedure.

[Chodon]

Holy crap!  How did I miss that this thread started talking about homebrewing?  I listened to BBR also (before some hood swiped my ipod off my desk), and I'm a huge fan.  I currently am working on a batch of English Pale Ale and have recently finished a batch of 80- Scotch ale.  The 80- was a little weak because I added the water straight away without measuring the specific gravity as I added.  Oops.

I'm trying to plan a batch of mead/metheglin right now.  I have about 14lb of honey laying around.  I just need to decide what spices/additives to add.  I'm thinking some serious ginger root to make a ginger beer mead.  I had Sam Adam's hard ginger ale from their 2006 patriot pack and I haven't been able to get it out of my mind since.

Good to know there are other homebrewers on here.  We should set up a beer exchange or something.