EP144: Friction

[Rigger]

This was a fascinating story, and I agree with every positive review on here so far. It actually made me a bit misty-eyed towards the end.

It is interesting how frequently scholars dismiss the simple wisdom that others can provide simply because their point of view is "uneducated". I liked that our main character wondered what it was like to see from all directions at once; perhaps he found an approximation when he finally saw Western's wisdom.

As for the non-repairing organic lifeform, perhaps that is the cost of their immortality... sort of a cross between an insect and a koi. They grow and shed until they reach adulthood, and from there on life is a battle with entropy.

[Rain]

Really good story

[CammoBlammo]

That's the other thing.  The world didn't matter to this character.  He ignored everything about life to gleen the true wisdom of life from these walls.  I spent this whole story thinking about how he was wasting his time.  In the end the only wisdom he got was from the time he wasn't reading from the walls.  His higher wisom came from his time with a loweer creature. 

I saw this more as a warning to people who try to learn from books without ever looking out thier windows. 

Wasn't that really the point? After spending his life reading from the walls he becomes the one hundred and whatevereth master with a simple comment that the writings of the masters could be found on the wall, but the masters themselves could be met by looking toward the sunset. The author seems to be deliberately ambiguous here. The obvious reference is to the sand, which contains the sand of the masters (as well as the pleb). It could also be a veiled reference to those who have never presumed to even begin reading the wall---the movers, the pilgrims, or even Western's species. In other words, the wise person will not shut the world away, because wisdom will be found there too. You realised very early on something that Gruen was to literally spend his life learning.

I couldn't help wondering if the author was thinking of the book of Ecclesiastes:

For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them? (3:19-22)

and

... and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, says the Teacher; all is vanity.

Besides being wise, the Teacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs. The Teacher sought to find pleasing words, and he wrote words of truth plainly. The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings that are given by one shepherd. Of anything beyond these, my child, beware. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. (12:7-12)

[bolddeceiver]

I would say that, because they're aliens, maybe they don't poop?  Or maybe the pilgrims bring the perfect food -- a food that can be used to its fullest, without any waste products whatsoever.

They're aliens.  Aliens don't necessarily poop like we do.  Witness this guy.

Equally important, an alien culture might not place the same significance or meaning on excretion; especially if microbial pathogenisis isn't as much of a problem for them, it's not hard to imagine a sentient race who defecates as nonchalantly as terrestrial horses.

[Listener]

I would say that, because they're aliens, maybe they don't poop?  Or maybe the pilgrims bring the perfect food -- a food that can be used to its fullest, without any waste products whatsoever.

They're aliens.  Aliens don't necessarily poop like we do.  Witness this guy.

Equally important, an alien culture might not place the same significance or meaning on excretion; especially if microbial pathogenisis isn't as much of a problem for them, it's not hard to imagine a sentient race who defecates as nonchalantly as terrestrial horses.

I believe there's a proverb somewhere about herding elephants with diarrhea...

I love that we've hijacked this perfectly respectable thread and taken it to poopsville.

[Russell Nash]

I would say that, because they're aliens, maybe they don't poop?  Or maybe the pilgrims bring the perfect food -- a food that can be used to its fullest, without any waste products whatsoever.

They're aliens.  Aliens don't necessarily poop like we do.  Witness this guy.

Equally important, an alien culture might not place the same significance or meaning on excretion; especially if microbial pathogenisis isn't as much of a problem for them, it's not hard to imagine a sentient race who defecates as nonchalantly as terrestrial horses.

I believe there's a proverb somewhere about herding elephants with diarrhea...

I love that we've hijacked this perfectly respectable thread and taken it to poopsville.

Don't worry.  If the poop takes off on it's own, I'll split it off.

Poop away!

[Anarkey]

I would say that, because they're aliens, maybe they don't poop?  Or maybe the pilgrims bring the perfect food -- a food that can be used to its fullest, without any waste products whatsoever.

They're aliens.  Aliens don't necessarily poop like we do.  Witness this guy.

Equally important, an alien culture might not place the same significance or meaning on excretion; especially if microbial pathogenisis isn't as much of a problem for them, it's not hard to imagine a sentient race who defecates as nonchalantly as terrestrial horses.

Uhm, no.  I'm not buying that.  A culture of aliens that has reading and writing and a social order almost exactly like ours but no significance to defecation or bodily waste of any type?  Even horses don't sh*t where they eat, and they may defecate where they sleep but they don't sleep lying down.   If nothing else, layering your filth in front of the wall you're trying to read blocks the writing.  No, that doesn't work for me as an explanation, and there's nothing about it in text, you're extrapolating to cover for the author's gaps (which there's nothing wrong with, and in fact drives most of the discussion here, but also doesn't change my mind). 

Are there no internal organs in these things?  Are they not made up of cells?

It's not just that there was no poop, you see, despite the scatological implications of my colostomy bag crack.  There was no snot, no mention of waste air exhaled (unless you count Gruen's constant sighs, but I figured those were meant to be emotive), no sweat, little blood, not even any tears (although maybe there was the mentioned of blurred eyes at one point?)  Nothing.  That's too much of a stretch for me though perhaps I'm too biologically unimaginative. 

I could maybe buy that they don't poop at all...but I don't buy that they don't excrete anything at all.  Gases leaving stomata all over the body,  I'll buy.  Waste expelled in a great gout of vomitus, I buy.  Poop, I buy.  Nothing ever discarded by the biological processes of a complicated enough to be sentient being?  Not so much.  There are some indicators that we're supposed to take these beings as automatons.  Not biological.  Under that circumstance I might buy the no poop, but I have other issues at that point, such as why these automatons are portrayed with human sentiments and animal motivations.  Why they play, for example.  Or dance.  I didn't think there were enough of those non-biological markers to decide absolutely (because if I'm an automaton, why eat? frex) so either way I remain dissatisfied.

And the root of my dissatisfaction is that it seems dishonest of the author to give me this whole organism's raison d'etre of avoiding friction while playing fast and loose with the biology (or at least playing fast and loose with his explanation of the biology).  Also, because it's interesting, and I want to know, and he didn't address what I wanted to know about his aliens, so I feel let down.  As I said, if the crux of the story hadn't revolved around the creature's physical nature, I probably wouldn't have cared.  I can think of very few Escape Pod stories where waste matter has been an explicit part of the story (ok, Acephalous Dreams has sh*t in it, IIRC, and in Jen Pelland's most recent story a guy gets so scared he messes himself, but still, those are exceptions!) and it's never bothered me in all those other stories.  Just here.  Because if you're going to do Natur und Geist (a theme which I love, btw), you have to be faithful about the Natur.  Not just the pretty poetry sunset stuff.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I'm intrigued enough by Anarkey's questions to try to fill in... plus there's a karma imbalance in place for me; I make so many, many poop jokes that just this once I feel obligated to take it seriously.  So...

I give you the humble earthworm.  Granted, what goes in is pretty much soil, but the point is that what comes OUT is... soil.  Maybe Gruen's people function somewhat in reverse; taking in an enriched substance, and leaving behind depleted dirt.

Since these alien critters are presumably made of stone (hence, their ground up bodies leaving behind sand) I'm going to do a bit of chemistry hand waving and say that whatever nutrition they require is chemically bonded in silicates, and that once they metabolize the nutrients, the resulting waste is either completely converted to energy, or leaves the stone body unobtrusively in the same granular form of sand that is naturally shedding from their worn-out bits, anyway.

We've already bought that the entire desert is made from the corpses of Gruen's people... is it that much of a stretch to assume it also holds their coprol remnants?

[Talia]

I tend to think the lynchpin of the story was meant to be the cultural differences between the two races, and the ensuing friendship and lessons learned, rather than an exploration of the main character's race in particular, and that's why further detail wasn't gone into regarding his functions and biology. It's really a philosophical piece, rather than something written to be hard, detailed sci fi (or however one might classify it). At least that's my perception.

I thought it was just great, personally. I particularly enjoyed the descriptions of Western's race's beliefs, and the concept of the Trail. That was fairly vivdly drawn out, I felt, and the concept really stuck with me. Don't we all kind of want to leave our own Trails in this world?

[gelee]

I think that getting stuck on a detail of alien biology is rather missing the point of the story.  I honestly can't recall a single story I've ever read (or heard) that gave much attention to how the non-terrans in questions dealt with the issue of excrement.  For that matter, most stories regarding plain old humans don't bother to mention potty breaks.  It's understood that it's one of the many things going on in the background that the author doesn't feel is involved in the story.  In this case, we are only allowed to see the creature eating to illustrate two points: philosopher types, such as Gruen, are highly valued by this society, and friction is such a big deal that these greatly valued philosophers are spared the trouble of even chewing their own food.  Perhaps those same pilgrims carted away Gruen's sand poo?  Who knows?  Who cares?  It simply does not matter in the context of the story.

[DKT]

I liked this story pretty well.  However, I do agree with Anarkey.  I kept wondering how Gruen was sitting on Western's back for all those years and wondering if that meant Gruen was crapping all over Western.  It's not a big thing, but it did take me out of the story a bit. 

[Swamp]

I have to comment on this story.  I hesitate to give it the designation of my "Best EscapePod Story Ever" becuse I enjoy so many types of stories.  There's fun/adventurous, satire, idea-driven, character-driven, action-driven, whimsical, etc.  Then there are stories that just make you sit back and think.  This story was amzing that way!

It is enjoyable just on the face value of the events as they were told, but you can really draw a lot more out of it.  It's very much like a parable, or an ink blot of literature.  Different people draw different things from it.  Some people draw out...well, poop...while others find other insights. ( no offense intended Anarkey.  I respect your opinion and see where you're coming from.  The poop discussion just makes me smile becuase only in a scifi forum would people have honest dicussions about that.  "yeah, just how did the alien relieve itself and not lose half of its backside in the process"

Some insights have already been mentioned.  Personally, I came away from the story with this thought:  all the knowlege in the world does you very little good, or has little meaning, unless you step away and apply your knowlegde and abilities to help others.  Kind of the "lose your life to find it" sort of thing.  In writing this, I know I am stepping way beyond the reaches of the author's original intent, but hey that is what happens with these types of stories.

Other insights could be: circle of life stuff with the sand, the mutual benefit of interecting with differnt cultures, slowing down your lifestyle to view the world around you, importance of family history, whatever. 

Good stuff.

[Czhorat]

I rather liked this one. The message was a bit simple, but very well delivered. To me it felt like a bit of a throwback to a time when SF stories were more idea-oriented than character-driven. I agree with gelee that asking questions about Gruen's bathroom habits misses the point; it reminds me a bit of the arguments about the orbital mechanics of the system in Asimov's "Nightfall". I saw the story as a parable about the nature of knowledge and experience, the conflict between theoretical study and exploration.

I personally see the point of Gruen's life the same way I look at a monastic hermit in this world. His contemplation sets an example for others to seek knowledge in manner that is, in this case, literally less consuming. His trail, if you will, lies in the example he sets for the pilgrims and seekers who are drawn to the wall to follow his progress and perhaps inspired to learn a bit of it for themselves.

The thing that took me out of the story a bit, and part of the reason I saw it as a bit of a throwback, is Western's characterization. He seemed to me to be a classic noble savage; less technically advanced but wise and selfless and almost holy. We needed him to act the way he did for the themes of the story, but having his goals be purely just and altruistic struck me as a touch simplistic and even demeaning.

[gelee]

I rather liked this one. The message was a bit simple, but very well delivered. To me it felt like a bit of a throwback to a time when SF stories were more idea-oriented than character-driven. I agree with gelee that asking questions about Gruen's bathroom habits misses the point; it reminds me a bit of the arguments about the orbital mechanics of the system in Asimov's "Nightfall". I saw the story as a parable about the nature of knowledge and experience, the conflict between theoretical study and exploration.

I personally see the point of Gruen's life the same way I look at a monastic hermit in this world. His contemplation sets an example for others to seek knowledge in manner that is, in this case, literally less consuming. His trail, if you will, lies in the example he sets for the pilgrims and seekers who are drawn to the wall to follow his progress and perhaps inspired to learn a bit of it for themselves.

The thing that took me out of the story a bit, and part of the reason I saw it as a bit of a throwback, is Western's characterization. He seemed to me to be a classic noble savage; less technically advanced but wise and selfless and almost holy. We needed him to act the way he did for the themes of the story, but having his goals be purely just and altruistic struck me as a touch simplistic and even demeaning.

I agree on every point, but I think we can forgive the "noble savage" characterization of Western.  As Czhorat stated, this was more of a "big idea" story than a "character" story.  In a more character driven story, this would really harm the piece, but I think the writer can get away with it in this case.

[ajames]

I think there may be a bit more complexity to this story than first meets the eye.  Is Gruen a devoted knowledge seeker, ignorant of the world and the simple truths surrounding him, as some have suggested?  If so, then why at the very beginning of the story are we told that he incurred friction daily to turn and watch the sun (this action was deemed "worth it" by Gruen)? 

Czhorat's description of Gruen as a sort of monastic hermit has value, but perhaps diminishes to role of the pilgrims in Gruen's motivations too much.  Is Gruen's desire to gain knowledge, or is it to be the first of his kind to read all the masters?  How many times are we told that no one has accomplished this before?  Gruen even tells Western that he is not interested in children -- any ordinary person can have those.  No, Gruen is interested in a different kind of immortality.  He does not seek enlightenment so much as he seeks accomplishment, and fame.  And his fame depended upon his ability to endure in the task before him, not to learn.  If he was really seeking wisdom, he would have skipped the writings of the 110th master soon after starting to read them, but he felt compelled to skim the remaining words under the watchful eyes of the pilgrims.

Whatever one makes of Gruen's encounter with Western, and there is plenty that could be made of it, this adventure gives the story its depth and poignancy.  I was moved by Gruen's simple stroke of the dying zither.  It wasn't said that this movement incurred friction, but it was understood.  But this, like turning to watch the sunset, was worth it.  That was the heart of the story.

Kudos to the author - he has a place among the masters., and I will be looking for more of his works.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

...Personally, I came away from the story with this thought:  all the knowlege in the world does you very little good, or has little meaning, unless you step away and apply your knowlegde and abilities to help others.  Kind of the "lose your life to find it" sort of thing.  In writing this, I know I am stepping way beyond the reaches of the author's original intent, but hey that is what happens with these types of stories.

Actually, I think you pretty much nailed the author's intent right there.  That's exactly what I took away from it.

As for the poop discussion, well... maybe I can blame the kids, but I am the guy that wrote this piece of...art.

[Djerrid]

Four word summary: "Time wounds all heels"

Favorite EP so far!

HA! I was going to say "Like sands through an hourglass, so are the Days of Our Lives..."

Oh, and this story should have been tagged NSFT. Not safe for treadmills. I could hear my knees grinding as I ran and listened. Then at the end as I'm grunting out the last half mile I get to listen to the song verse reminding me that even though I'm running, I'm still fat! (well, not fat, just working off that mid thirties beer gut heh)

Yeah, that four word summary is definitely the quote of the week.

Also, I was thinking kind of the same thing about old men's bones in grinding knee joints. I wonder if the author was writing this while in the waiting room for hip replacement surgery pouring over old magazines. "Each time I turn the page the cartilage in my shoulder wears down a little more..."

[Mpmagi]

Decent story, but I thought the song really tied it up at the end.

More George Hrab!

[strixus]

This had to be one of my favorite EscapePod stories ever.

I'm currently a graduate student in Philosophy, and often I feel very much like the main character of this story. Set into some life consuming quest for knowledge that will probably kill me before I read everything I need to read and eat my life sunrise to sunset.

In a way, it felt very much like a Kyoto School Zen parable - the least expected and often most overlooked things teach us the most about the world and the nature of ourselves.

Or, to revert to LOLCAT: DO WANT MOAR LIEK.

[corydodt]

And I'm with Kurt Faler... after hearing this fine, fine tale, I was dismayed to hear my knees as I came up the stairs.   Could all that dirt we keep cleaning away from the door actually be my own silt?

Actually, it's literally true that a great deal of the visible dust in your house -- maybe even most -- is particulate skin and hair.  So try not to think about that the next time you're in a sunbeam . . .

[corydodt]

Does anyone else think this story should have been Escape Pod episode #138?

[DKT]

Why?

[DDog]

I loved this story. I don't actually have a list of "favorite EPs ever" but this would be on it if I did.

[ajames]

Does anyone else think this story should have been Escape Pod episode #138?

I almost looked to see what episode 138 actually was (and when), and then it hit me.  Clever.  Yeah, this would probably fit right in with the other masters, and much better than the 110th master.

[CthulhuRlyeh]

Shoes. With Comfy insoles. Ooh. or maybe a hamster ball.