Author Topic: Cyborgs can't be far off...  (Read 11154 times)

Chodon

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on: April 02, 2008, 10:13:24 PM
It's just a matter of time until the Borg are real.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/82

Seriously, that is some fantastic technology and it's awesome that it is being put to a good cause.

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Reply #1 on: April 03, 2008, 04:01:35 AM
Can't be arsed to watch a video clip, but are we talking bionic limbs here?

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oddpod

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Reply #2 on: April 03, 2008, 08:05:53 AM
looks goood compared to other prostetic limbs i have seen, i wuld like to know what the contrrole method is

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Chodon

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Reply #3 on: April 03, 2008, 10:26:23 AM
Can't be arsed to watch a video clip, but are we talking bionic limbs here?
Yeah, I think it's made by the same guy that made the Segway.  It has 14 degrees of freedom.  The goal was to make something that could pick up a grape or a raisin, tell the difference without looking, not crush it, and be able to eat it.  He got pretty darn close.
The need for this is because there are 24 DUAL complete (like from the shoulder) arm amputees from the wars in Iraq (I don't want to turn this into a pro/con war debate, this is just a statement of fact).  Those guys really, really need something like this.

The video is 5:20 and looks like something out of the movie AI to me.

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oddpod

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Reply #4 on: April 03, 2008, 12:18:22 PM
indead

i think thare are alot more aplicashons for the teck than hellping vets,

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Reply #5 on: April 03, 2008, 02:47:17 PM
indead

i think thare are alot more aplicashons for the teck than hellping vets,

Undoubtedly, but replacing lost limbs is a great first priority.

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Chodon

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Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 03:42:12 PM
So when can we really call people "cyborgs" with this type of technology?  Does this prosthetic qualify someone as a cyborg?  What about below the elbow?  What about eyeglasses?  Wristwatches?

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Heradel

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Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 04:08:32 PM
So when can we really call people "cyborgs" with this type of technology?  Does this prosthetic qualify someone as a cyborg?  What about below the elbow?  What about eyeglasses?  Wristwatches?

Only when the artificial limb exceeds the capacities of the original human appendage. So a fake eye that has a 10x optical zoom is cybernetic, but the current ones that give something like 200/20 and some color perception aren't.

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Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 04:14:48 PM
So when can we really call people "cyborgs" with this type of technology?  Does this prosthetic qualify someone as a cyborg?  What about below the elbow?  What about eyeglasses?  Wristwatches?

Only when the artificial limb exceeds the capacities of the original human appendage. So a fake eye that has a 10x optical zoom is cybernetic, but the current ones that give something like 200/20 and some color perception aren't.

My wristwatch exceeds the capabilities of my original human wrist by adding a handy time display. Does that mean that, by your definition, I am a cyborg?

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Heradel

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Reply #9 on: April 03, 2008, 05:17:13 PM
So when can we really call people "cyborgs" with this type of technology?  Does this prosthetic qualify someone as a cyborg?  What about below the elbow?  What about eyeglasses?  Wristwatches?

Only when the artificial limb exceeds the capacities of the original human appendage. So a fake eye that has a 10x optical zoom is cybernetic, but the current ones that give something like 200/20 and some color perception aren't.

My wristwatch exceeds the capabilities of my original human wrist by adding a handy time display. Does that mean that, by your definition, I am a cyborg?

A wristwatch isn't a limb. If you had an LED display implanted below the skin of your wrist/forearm and the display shone through the skin it might be considered a cybernetic implant, but a wristwatch fails the test of some sort of mechanical fusion with the organic.

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wintermute

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Reply #10 on: April 03, 2008, 07:32:15 PM
So when can we really call people "cyborgs" with this type of technology?  Does this prosthetic qualify someone as a cyborg?  What about below the elbow?  What about eyeglasses?  Wristwatches?

Only when the artificial limb exceeds the capacities of the original human appendage. So a fake eye that has a 10x optical zoom is cybernetic, but the current ones that give something like 200/20 and some color perception aren't.

My wristwatch exceeds the capabilities of my original human wrist by adding a handy time display. Does that mean that, by your definition, I am a cyborg?

A wristwatch isn't a limb. If you had an LED display implanted below the skin of your wrist/forearm and the display shone through the skin it might be considered a cybernetic implant, but a wristwatch fails the test of some sort of mechanical fusion with the organic.

A point that was omitted from your original definition. But I'm not sure that it ends up making more sense. An artificial arm, for example, may detect small movements in your shoulder stump (rather than being directly tied into nerves), and convert that into a range of motion that surpasses the average human arm. But, as there's no "mechanical fusion with the organic" (or at least, no more than when I press the buttons on this here keyboard), it would fail your definition of cybernetic.

This may be exactly what you intend, but such an arm seems to far better fit my ill-defined concept of "cybernetics" than would an implanted watch; that seems no more cyborgish than the RFID chips that people put in their dogs...

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Heradel

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Reply #11 on: April 03, 2008, 08:01:59 PM
A wristwatch isn't a limb. If you had an LED display implanted below the skin of your wrist/forearm and the display shone through the skin it might be considered a cybernetic implant, but a wristwatch fails the test of some sort of mechanical fusion with the organic.

A point that was omitted from your original definition. But I'm not sure that it ends up making more sense. An artificial arm, for example, may detect small movements in your shoulder stump (rather than being directly tied into nerves), and convert that into a range of motion that surpasses the average human arm. But, as there's no "mechanical fusion with the organic" (or at least, no more than when I press the buttons on this here keyboard), it would fail your definition of cybernetic.

This may be exactly what you intend, but such an arm seems to far better fit my ill-defined concept of "cybernetics" than would an implanted watch; that seems no more cyborgish than the RFID chips that people put in their dogs...
I'll go to the dictionary on this one:
Quote from: American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
cyborg |ˈsīˌbôrg|
noun
a fictional or hypothetical person whose physical abilities are extended beyond normal human limitations by mechanical elements built into the body.
ORIGIN 1960s: blend of cyber- and organism.

I was being a bit more specific because we were talking about artificial limbs. I'd argue that a greater range of motion doesn't necessarily translate to exceeding the capabilities of a regular limb if there's only one thing that's better and it's at the cost of other things. Something meets the cyborg standard when it replicates in all categories a human limb, and then does it one better. So same heat/cold/pain/tactile response, and then more range of motion/double jointedness and then stronger/faster/harder.

But a limb is a pretty high barrier of entry to cyborgishness. I seem to remember an old thread where we talked about a guy that had an RFID chip implanted that controlled various functions in his house — if he was playing music it would follow him via the speakers he had networked in all the rooms, the lights would come on when he was getting near the doorway, etc. Not a real big cyborg, but it's just a bit better than regular human.

Honestly I'm convinced that small cyborg is going to be pretty common within two decades, but we're never really going to go borg-like except for people with birth defects/accidents and that 5% of the population that will always do anything for the thrill of it.

Myself, I'd get a implant that did the time like I described, or one that acted as a password for my laptop. I'd probably wait a little while to get one that did VR, but only to make sure it works as advertised.

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Chodon

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Reply #12 on: April 04, 2008, 03:58:03 PM
I think the line between cyborg and normal human is going to get less and less defined as time goes on.  If someone from the middle ages were to see a normal person with contact lenses, an ipod in their ears, and digital wristwatch they would certainly think of them as a cyborg.  You and I would consider it a normal person.  Forget about it if the person had even a relatively cheap prosthetic limb!

I think as technology increases we also increase our threshold for what we define a cyborg as.  We're starting to get some really, really interesting questions that make me think I'm living in science fiction though.  For example: the runner with two prosthetic legs who wants to compete in the olympics.  His legs are better at retaining and converting his running energy to speed than normal human legs.  The olympic comission determined he couldn't compete because they believe this is an unfair advantage for him.  20 years ago, he would have been a cyborg.  Today he's just a guy with some prosthetic legs.

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Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 04:56:54 PM
If someone from the middle ages were to see a normal person with contact lenses, an ipod in their ears, and digital wristwatch they would certainly think of them as a cyborg.

No, they'd probably think of them as a demon. I don't think people in the Middle Ages thought in terms of cyborgs ;)

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oddpod

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Reply #14 on: April 04, 2008, 06:17:09 PM
i think its intresting that in ficton ciborgs are mostly kick ass young bloods, ciber ninjers and metalic meat heads. but the most ciberised groop in western sosiaty is the over 60s. hip and knee replacement is a regular acurance, pacemakers are farly comen as are replacement hart valves

its the rise of the ciber-geriatric!

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Heradel

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Reply #15 on: April 04, 2008, 06:27:24 PM
i think its intresting that in ficton ciborgs are mostly kick ass young bloods, ciber ninjers and metalic meat heads. but the most ciberised groop in western sosiaty is the over 60s. hip and knee replacement is a regular acurance, pacemakers are farly comen as are replacement hart valves

its the rise of the ciber-geriatric!

My GF's mother recently went through her hip replacement, having seen some of the recovery process I would argue that it's only getting you back to about if not slightly less than human levels. But it's true that they're the ones with the most artificial parts, and the ones that'll probably get them first.

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Reply #16 on: April 04, 2008, 09:38:45 PM
i think its intresting that in ficton ciborgs are mostly kick ass young bloods, ciber ninjers and metalic meat heads. but the most ciberised groop in western sosiaty is the over 60s. hip and knee replacement is a regular acurance, pacemakers are farly comen as are replacement hart valves

its the rise of the ciber-geriatric!

My GF's mother recently went through her hip replacement, having seen some of the recovery process I would argue that it's only getting you back to about if not slightly less than human levels. But it's true that they're the ones with the most artificial parts, and the ones that'll probably get them first.

I'm with Heradel on this one.  My old man had double knee replacement.  The knees components themselves are stronger than before, but the best he could have ever hoped for was for the new ones to be as good as his old knees when he was forty.  Plus, the new ones will need parts replaced every ten to fifteen years.



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Reply #17 on: April 05, 2008, 06:55:16 AM
i think the "beter than human" bench mark is open to interpretashon
the replacement knees and hips may not be as good as a healthy joint in a yunger human, but thay are far superia to the joints thay are replacing.

"beter" is a realy broad term, is am arm that can punch thrue steal beter than a natural arm that can repare its sellf?
is the gold crown on my tooth a ciber acsesory? it is superia to the top of the origanal tooth as it dosent rot


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Reply #18 on: April 06, 2008, 06:05:47 AM
Saw an item on Discovery Channel about (I think) this lady - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NBdcPibNzM&feature=related - with her artificial vision. Low-rez, yes, but it's a start.

What was interesting was how they mapped out her vision by stimulating one part of her brain at a time, and she would point on a grid where she perceived the flash of light to have come from. Repeat for every pixel.

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Reply #19 on: April 06, 2008, 03:45:00 PM
Saw an item on Discovery Channel about (I think) this lady - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NBdcPibNzM&feature=related - with her artificial vision. Low-rez, yes, but it's a start.

What was interesting was how they mapped out her vision by stimulating one part of her brain at a time, and she would point on a grid where she perceived the flash of light to have come from. Repeat for every pixel.

What I find fascinating about vision is hyperacuity - your retina really isn't that good at making out fine details, but your brain somehow manages to take that low-res image and pull out about 10 times as much detail as is actually there.

How does it do that?

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Reply #20 on: April 07, 2008, 01:50:46 AM
Couldn't resist dropping this here (and stePH, even YOU should be arsed to spend the time on it!):

"Better" from Our Bodies, Ourselves, Our Cybernetic Arms

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oddpod

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Reply #21 on: April 07, 2008, 08:18:45 AM
Couldn't resist dropping this here (and stePH, even YOU should be arsed to spend the time on it!):

"Better" from Our Bodies, Ourselves, Our Cybernetic Arms

HA!
i shuld have sean this coming :)
tiz one of my favoret coulton songs


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