Author Topic: When US citizens get their "W" money  (Read 50779 times)

birdless

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Reply #50 on: April 14, 2008, 06:24:31 PM
I did some serious thinking about this thread yesterday to determine the real, true, root cause of the problems I see in government.  I came to the following conclusion: government isn't the problem, it's the people that put them in place.

A perfect example is Detroit's mayor, Kwame Kilpatrick.  He is a neoptist, liar, and an adulterer.  Not attributes that make a good leader, but people still voted for him.  THAT is my problem.  People put these terrible leaders in positions of power and as long as they are fat, dumb, and happy they're okay with negligent leaders.  The United States, as a whole, is complacent.  More people need to be activists for their causes, and need to strive to be well-informed.  Nobody seems to care (present company excepted) as long as they can watch their stories and get to McDonald's.
Who was his opponent? Was it yet another case of voting between the lesser of two evils? What's the voter to do when faced with that increasingly prevalent problem? I think it's oversimplified to say it's the governments fault or it's the people's fault.

How does being an adulterer affect a guys ability to be a mayor??  Honestly does anyone give a rat's ass if the CEO of a major company has a girlfriend on the side? 
I personally thought the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair was the non-issue of the decade and a waste of everybody's time.
I think it is a reflection of someone's character and moral, two things that important to me.  I don't think it represents very good jugement because it is a selfish act that does not take into consideration the feelings or reprocussions of their actions.  That is something that reflects on one's ability to be a mayor.  Plus you neglected the fact that he LIED about it several times and perjered himself.

I totally agree, Chodon. Be it President, Mayor or CEO, it reflects on their character, and dammit, you can't underrate that in the leader of our nation!



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Reply #51 on: April 14, 2008, 07:02:01 PM
I personally thought the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair was the non-issue of the decade and a waste of everybody's time.
I think it is a reflection of someone's character and moral, two things that important to me.  I don't think it represents very good jugement because it is a selfish act that does not take into consideration the feelings or reprocussions of their actions.  That is something that reflects on one's ability to be a mayor.  Plus you neglected the fact that he LIED about it several times and perjered himself.

Lying about it was the wrong move.  I've always maintained that he should have answered any questions on the subject with "I don't recognize your right to ask me that question."  Or more succinctly, "none of your goddamn business."

For the record, I never was a Clinton "supporter", and if GWB is diddling interns I still don't care.  I have serious issues with how his administration is running things, but I don't give two shits about his personal business.

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Reply #52 on: April 14, 2008, 07:04:36 PM
How does being an adulterer affect a guys ability to be a mayor??  Honestly does anyone give a rat's ass if the CEO of a major company has a girlfriend on the side? 
I personally thought the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair was the non-issue of the decade and a waste of everybody's time.
I think it is a reflection of someone's character and moral, two things that important to me.  I don't think it represents very good jugement because it is a selfish act that does not take into consideration the feelings or reprocussions of their actions.  That is something that reflects on one's ability to be a mayor.  Plus you neglected the fact that he LIED about it several times and perjered himself.
I didn't leave anything out, because I know nothing of the case.  

I think these "charactor" issues are a big bag of BS.  I posted about a year ago about a show I saw on PBS in the pre-internet days.  Basically every US President had an affair while in office except for Carter and it looks like Bush II.  Carter was totally ineffectual and Bush has been an absolute disaster.  FDR is considered one of the absolute greats and his secretary lived with him and Eleanor was down the hall.  Churchill was a drunkard and adulterer.  Hitler only drank the ocassional beer and was completely monogamous.

If you didn't buy from a company, because the CEO had an affair; you basically wouldn't be able to live as a resident of the first world.  

I contribute to causes I think are of the utmost importance like the JPFO and MCRGO.
Groups of importance.  I only give to little unimportant groups like UNICEF and Doctors Without Borders.
Why do you call them unimportant?  I certainly didn't say that in my post.  I think those are fantastic groups to give money to.  I simply think the JPFO and MCRGO are also important groups.  They teach courses on firearms safety and hand out gun locks. 

Poorly worded I admit.  I have a serious problem with gun rights groups.  They act like they're some grassroots movement, but they're essentially corporate lobbying entities.  Chodon complains constantly about how this country doesn't work and how stupid decisions are made all of the time.  Many of those stupid decisions come from corporate lobbying pressure.  If he didn't give money to these lobbyists, Colt or Smith & Wesson would.  They do not worry about their budgets.  

If you want to be really rich, found one of these organizations.  Once you start making a good amount of noise, you can give yourself a massive salary and just watch the money flow in.

The funny ass thing about this is I'm not anti-gun.



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Reply #53 on: April 14, 2008, 07:12:30 PM
I contribute to causes I think are of the utmost importance like the JPFO and MCRGO.
Groups of importance.  I only give to little unimportant groups like UNICEF and Doctors Without Borders.
Why do you call them unimportant?  I certainly didn't say that in my post.  I think those are fantastic groups to give money to.  I simply think the JPFO and MCRGO are also important groups.  They teach courses on firearms safety and hand out gun locks. 

I think the point is that by describing them as being "of the utmost importance", you're implicitly stating that all other causes (UNICEF, DWB, Amnesty International,  The Innocence Project, your local childrens' hospital, or the Rosie O'Donnell Retirement Fund) are of lesser importance. Had you left out that one word, I doubt Mr Nash would have felt compelled to comment.

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Reply #54 on: April 14, 2008, 07:22:10 PM
Chiming in with Russell here, but the NRA goes too far with what they do. I was on the rifle team in High School, and though I won't hunt (against my belief system), I don't want to ban all guns. But gun control is proper and necessary, especially in cities. Out in the country and in earlier times it was a lot more logical for people to be armed, but in city life it's insane. There's room for discussion about self-defense, but DC's handgun ban is a good idea implemented badly due to the availability of guns from out of the city. But the intent of getting the number of guns down in the city is a good idea that is necessary for the general welfare.

A handgun can be used for protection. But if it's ten times more likely that a given gun is used in a crime instead of self-defense, well, something has to change.

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birdless

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Reply #55 on: April 14, 2008, 07:25:02 PM
Lying about it was the wrong move.  I've always maintained that he should have answered any questions on the subject with "I don't recognize your right to ask me that question."  Or more succinctly, "none of your goddamn business."

For the record, I never was a Clinton "supporter", and if GWB is diddling interns I still don't care.  I have serious issues with how his administration is running things, but I don't give two shits about his personal business.
Well, respecting the leader isn't, I guess, absolutely necessary, but I would prefer to be able to respect the leader of my country, and it's hard for me to respect someone who puts their own selfish desires above the love of his family. Of course, we all do that from time to time in smaller ways, and I'm not talking about a moment of weakness; I'm talking about calculated, persistent, premeditated cheating on your spouse.

I think these "charactor" issues are a big bag of BS.  I posted about a year ago about a show I saw on PBS in the pre-internet days.  Basically every US President had an affair while in office except for Carter and it looks like Bush II.  Carter was totally ineffectual and Bush has been an absolute disaster.  FDR is considered one of the absolute greats and his secretary lived with him and Eleanor was down the hall.  Churchill was a drunkard and adulterer.  Hitler only drank the ocassional beer and was completely monogamous.
This show on PBS, did they really state some hard sources for these claims or was it some deftly manipulated revisionist history? Yeah, I know, we've had some good presidents who made some bad judgments in their personal lives, but to state that all but two have had affairs seems a little sensationalistic, to me. No offense, Nash, it's just hard for me to buy that, ya know? :-\



Chodon

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Reply #56 on: April 14, 2008, 08:15:14 PM
I contribute to causes I think are of the utmost importance like the JPFO and MCRGO.
Groups of importance.  I only give to little unimportant groups like UNICEF and Doctors Without Borders.
Why do you call them unimportant?  I certainly didn't say that in my post.  I think those are fantastic groups to give money to.  I simply think the JPFO and MCRGO are also important groups.  They teach courses on firearms safety and hand out gun locks. 

I think the point is that by describing them as being "of the utmost importance", you're implicitly stating that all other causes (UNICEF, DWB, Amnesty International,  The Innocence Project, your local childrens' hospital, or the Rosie O'Donnell Retirement Fund) are of lesser importance. Had you left out that one word, I doubt Mr Nash would have felt compelled to comment.
I should have stated "of the utmost importance to me".  My views on firearms are a matter of public record.  I don't want to turn this into a debate about guns again.  We had that debate already.  I just wanted to say I think people need to get more involved and take politics more seriously.  If they really took the time to get educated they would see through all the BS that is out there on both sides.  I don't support JPFO and MCRGO for their lobbying purposes, I support them because they also do good in the community.

I'm all for people supporting whatever organizations they want.  It's their own money and they can do what they damn well please with it.

As far as leaders having affairs, I'm always going to have an issue with it.  If someone is willing to lie to their spouse, the person they supposedly love more than anyone in the world, why wouldn't they lie to you or me? 

I do NOT consider FDR an absolute great.  And with the comparison of Hitler, I think Godwin's Law is in effect.  I think that one's dedication to their family is ONE of many indicators of their skill as a leader.  For example, I haven't cheated on my wife, but I would be a shitty president.  Not as bad as Hitler, but probably worse than Bush 2.

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Reply #57 on: April 15, 2008, 03:33:13 AM
A couple of (I hope) brief thoughts:

1) Chodon, my comments about "if you think X sucks, then you should do something about it" were NOT directed at you personally.  I violated one of my own logical pet peeves by switching between the "individual you" in part of the post, and the "collective/hypothetical you" in other parts.  You're one of the Junior Achievement volunteers also, aren't you?  It's not you that my anger and frustration are directed at... it's the whiny slob who works French hours (say, less than 35 a week), plays WoW (or an equivalent) every other waking hour, and complains that he doesn't have time to get involved that ticks me off.  Fortunately, I don't have to be around people like that very often.

2)  I think "character" and "morals" in a politician are both unlikely and undesirable.  At least in the sense that you guys are talking about.  Someone's fidelity to their wife has less than zero impact on how they do their job; in fact, if they are seeking a job like POTUS, they've already established that family is not coming first.  If you're casting your vote based on who is more "moral" (and good luck defining that in a measurable way) you end up with... um... my boss*.  (To be continued 1-20-2009.  :( )

3)  Why I am not a Libertarian:  there is more to government than gun control and getting rid of taxes.  I used to think it was great to hear Libertarian thinkers talk about what a wonderful world it would be if that nasty old government would stop reaching into our pockets and just leave us alone.  "We're responsible adults!  We can take care of ourselves!"  But that's not the end of the story.   We need a government; therefore, we have one.  Like a gun, it is dangerous when it is not handled properly.  You can ignore it (sometimes at your peril), but you don't dare ban it.  And you hope you don't have to use it on someone else.  But, sometimes, despite your best intentions, that isn't up to you.  (and to follow the analogy, we have just spent seven years witnessing what happens when the drunken teenagers find the key to dad's gun safe... but again, I shouldn't really elaborate ;) )


*Very, VERY indirectly... but close enough to wait a year.

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Reply #58 on: April 15, 2008, 04:17:52 AM
I don't have time to deal with all this right now, but I need clairification on a couple points.


Okay, this is something very interesting to me.  I don't understand how bureaucracy (one of the few things government does well) can make something more efficient. 


I'm unclear what you mean by "bureaucracy."  In the sense of having a large group of people in a series of heirarchical relationships and governed by formal rules, that's just about the only way we've discovered to get large groups of unrelated people to work together and apply a variety of specialized skills to large-scale problems and processes.  Every couple years, some wisacre comes along and wants to be "unbureacratic" and tears down the structure of departments, staff, etc. Which just re-emerges, now labeled as "teams," "squads," "production units," "pods" (I am not making that last one up), or what have you, but basically the same pattern because nobody's really got a better one. So in that sense, "bureaucracy" -- with all its attendent problems -- seems to be an unavoidable consequence of dealing with large problems and processes.  (Small organizations find their own ways to be eccentric and dysfunctional.)

Since I assume you're smart enough to know all that, what do you mean by bureacracy?



There are some things government does BETTER than the private sector, or things the private sector can't do at all.  Examples include roads, police, national defense.  They do not do it more efficiently though. 


And now we come to our second problematic term: efficiency.  By efficient, I mean using fewer units of input (usually standardized to a monetary cost) to produce the same out put (ditto) than competing solutions.  I don't understand how you're using the term in this context.



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Chodon

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Reply #59 on: April 15, 2008, 11:39:55 AM
A couple of (I hope) brief thoughts:
1) Chodon, my comments about "if you think X sucks, then you should do something about it" were NOT directed at you personally.  I violated one of my own logical pet peeves by switching between the "individual you" in part of the post, and the "collective/hypothetical you" in other parts.  You're one of the Junior Achievement volunteers also, aren't you?  It's not you that my anger and frustration are directed at... it's the whiny slob who works French hours (say, less than 35 a week), plays WoW (or an equivalent) every other waking hour, and complains that he doesn't have time to get involved that ticks me off.  Fortunately, I don't have to be around people like that very often.
Thanks for the clarification.  Makes sense to me, and I agree.  In fact, I start a new JA class this week!  Woo-hoo!  It's my first time teaching 7th grade though...we'll see how it goes. :-\
2)  I think "character" and "morals" in a politician are both unlikely and undesirable.  At least in the sense that you guys are talking about.  Someone's fidelity to their wife has less than zero impact on how they do their job; in fact, if they are seeking a job like POTUS, they've already established that family is not coming first.  If you're casting your vote based on who is more "moral" (and good luck defining that in a measurable way) you end up with... um... my boss*.  (To be continued 1-20-2009.  :( )
I guess that is one where we both articulated our points well, but are going to have to agree to disagree.  Again, I wouldn't use morality as my only criterion for voting, but it would be an additional factor.  I think it reflects on one's ability to maintain promises, but if their policies are shit I would rather they didn't follow through on them.
3)  Why I am not a Libertarian:  there is more to government than gun control and getting rid of taxes.  I used to think it was great to hear Libertarian thinkers talk about what a wonderful world it would be if that nasty old government would stop reaching into our pockets and just leave us alone.  "We're responsible adults!  We can take care of ourselves!"  But that's not the end of the story.   We need a government; therefore, we have one.  Like a gun, it is dangerous when it is not handled properly.  You can ignore it (sometimes at your peril), but you don't dare ban it.  And you hope you don't have to use it on someone else.  But, sometimes, despite your best intentions, that isn't up to you.  (and to follow the analogy, we have just spent seven years witnessing what happens when the drunken teenagers find the key to dad's gun safe... but again, I shouldn't really elaborate ;) )
I have been seriously reconsidering my Libertarian party membership lately.  The realization I had earlier this week that government isn't really the problem, it's the people that put them in place made me realize minimizing government isn't going to fix the problem.  Unfortunately, I haven't figured out what will, so I know I sound like a whiney do-nothing.  I'll admit: I don't have an answer right now, and probably will never have THE answer.  I'm just not content with the status quo.

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Chodon

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Reply #60 on: April 15, 2008, 12:04:12 PM
Okay, this is something very interesting to me.  I don't understand how bureaucracy (one of the few things government does well) can make something more efficient. 
I'm unclear what you mean by "bureaucracy."  In the sense of having a large group of people in a series of heirarchical relationships and governed by formal rules, that's just about the only way we've discovered to get large groups of unrelated people to work together and apply a variety of specialized skills to large-scale problems and processes.  Every couple years, some wisacre comes along and wants to be "unbureacratic" and tears down the structure of departments, staff, etc. Which just re-emerges, now labeled as "teams," "squads," "production units," "pods" (I am not making that last one up), or what have you, but basically the same pattern because nobody's really got a better one. So in that sense, "bureaucracy" -- with all its attendent problems -- seems to be an unavoidable consequence of dealing with large problems and processes.  (Small organizations find their own ways to be eccentric and dysfunctional.)

Since I assume you're smart enough to know all that, what do you mean by bureacracy?
I meant the hassle one has to go through to get the government to perform, and how the rules are sometimes followed to the letter to the exclusion of the intent.  An example is Act Two of This American Life from a few weeks ago.  I consider it to be synonymous with waste, laziness, and a disregard for one's fellows.  It also whittle's away at people's liberties, making them jump through hoops to receive things such as permits (many of which are for rights which are constitutionally granted).  I realize a certain amount of bureaucracy is required in business and government, but I think it should be minimized in order to reduce administrative overhead expedite results. 

There are some things government does BETTER than the private sector, or things the private sector can't do at all.  Examples include roads, police, national defense.  They do not do it more efficiently though. 
And now we come to our second problematic term: efficiency.  By efficient, I mean using fewer units of input (usually standardized to a monetary cost) to produce the same out put (ditto) than competing solutions.  I don't understand how you're using the term in this context.
I don't know what the hell I was saying there.  That didn't even make sense to me now that I re-read it.  If there is only one way of doing something the efficiency is undefined (because, as you said, it is a comparison).   ???
I guess I was trying to make the point that those major programs were very expensive, but the business sector never would have attempted them, so there is no way of telling how much money was wasted (or saved).

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Reply #61 on: April 15, 2008, 01:14:48 PM
There are some things government does BETTER than the private sector, or things the private sector can't do at all.  Examples include roads, police, national defense.  They do not do it more efficiently though. 
And now we come to our second problematic term: efficiency.  By efficient, I mean using fewer units of input (usually standardized to a monetary cost) to produce the same out put (ditto) than competing solutions.  I don't understand how you're using the term in this context.
I don't know what the hell I was saying there.  That didn't even make sense to me now that I re-read it.  If there is only one way of doing something the efficiency is undefined (because, as you said, it is a comparison).   ???
I guess I was trying to make the point that those major programs were very expensive, but the business sector never would have attempted them, so there is no way of telling how much money was wasted (or saved).

All of the things you listed could be done by private industry.

The earliest roads were built by car manufacturers, in the same way that railway operators pay for train tracks; had roads and railways ether both been publicly funded, or both been privately funded, America's model of mass transportation may have been very different.

Private police forces are not unknown, but I think most citizens are understandably cautious about giving police powers to non-governmental organisations.

The founding father's preferred model for national defence was to have no standing army, and rely on militias of private citizens when a defence was needed. The idea was that, without a standing army, America would not be able to start a war of aggression or oppress the population. Of course, expecting private individuals to own military equipment works fine when the height of technology is a barrel-loaded musket, but falls down when you need air support.

Things private industry cannot do tend to be in the field of long-term blue-sky research. The US government sank tens (hundreds?) of billions of dollars into developing computers over a period of decades, before industry had the slightest interest in using the now-proven, mature technology. Without NASA spending billions on working out how to get satellites into orbit, CNN certainly wouldn't have wanted to do the basic research. I can only hope that government research into space travel gets back on track, so that it reaches the point where private industry can see a suitable return on investment.

The thing that government can do far, far better than private business is to to throw money at researchers without caring if they get it back in time for the next shareholder's meeting.

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Windup

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Reply #62 on: April 15, 2008, 10:32:41 PM

<snip> Since I assume you're smart enough to know all that, what do you mean by bureacracy?


I meant the hassle one has to go through to get the government to perform, and how the rules are sometimes followed to the letter to the exclusion of the intent.  An example is Act Two of This American Life from a few weeks ago.  I consider it to be synonymous with waste, laziness, and a disregard for one's fellows.  It also whittle's away at people's liberties, making them jump through hoops to receive things such as permits (many of which are for rights which are constitutionally granted).  I realize a certain amount of bureaucracy is required in business and government, but I think it should be minimized in order to reduce administrative overhead expedite results. 


Ah. OK, so it's not bureacracy that bugs you, it's a badly-run bureacracy that bugs you. 

Sadly, the government has no monopoly on this, as anyone who's tried to re-book an airline seat after having their flight cancelled or pry a payment out of an insurance company lately probably knows.  Or, for extra bonus points, have a mutual fund company explain why you're paying a 12b-1 fee (a marketing fee they justify charging because it will "increase assets and lead to lower costs" and to "compensate marketing service providers) on a closed fund that being purchased directly from the fund family.  The real answer: "Because we can."  The answer you get: <<insert almost any string of words that is not the real answer>>  Though I guess that's technically not bureacracy, more like simple extortion.


There are some things government does BETTER than the private sector, or things the private sector can't do at all.  Examples include roads, police, national defense.  They do not do it more efficiently though. 


And now we come to our second problematic term: efficiency.  By efficient, I mean using fewer units of input (usually standardized to a monetary cost) to produce the same out put (ditto) than competing solutions.  I don't understand how you're using the term in this context.


I don't know what the hell I was saying there.  That didn't even make sense to me now that I re-read it.  If there is only one way of doing something the efficiency is undefined (because, as you said, it is a comparison).   ???


OK, just so long as we're all operating at the same general level of confusion.  ;D




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Reply #63 on: May 01, 2008, 09:54:25 PM
Cha-ching.  Got my "W" money deposited in to the checking account yesterday (April 30th).   Debt retired today.  Mission Accomplished! 

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


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Reply #64 on: May 01, 2008, 10:09:44 PM
Cha-ching.  Got my "W" money deposited in to the checking account yesterday (April 30th).   Debt retired today.  Mission Accomplished! 

At least somebody's mission got accomplished (you hear me, George?)

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Reply #65 on: May 02, 2008, 01:55:17 AM
Heh... don't know if this is y'all's cup of tea, but Serj Tankian made a cute reference to having a "Mishun akomplishd" in his "Empty Walls" video.  (Currently, my wife's favorite song.)

Speaking of said lovely wife, she told me she found out that this W money is basically coming out of any refunds we would have received on our 2008 returns... which sounds like a "pre-bate" to me.  Has anyone else got a sense of the fine print behind this deal?  If it's something we're basically going to have to pay back next tax cycle, I'd rather not spend it like a foolish grasshopper now.  I'd rather keep believing that the Congress is fiscally irresponsible, frankly.  ;)

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Windup

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Reply #66 on: May 02, 2008, 03:29:18 AM
Heh... don't know if this is y'all's cup of tea, but Serj Tankian made a cute reference to having a "Mishun akomplishd" in his "Empty Walls" video.  (Currently, my wife's favorite song.)

Speaking of said lovely wife, she told me she found out that this W money is basically coming out of any refunds we would have received on our 2008 returns... which sounds like a "pre-bate" to me.  Has anyone else got a sense of the fine print behind this deal?  If it's something we're basically going to have to pay back next tax cycle, I'd rather not spend it like a foolish grasshopper now.  I'd rather keep believing that the Congress is fiscally irresponsible, frankly.  ;)


Dunno about Congress, but my guess is that the Chinese will want their money back, eventually...

"My whole job is in the space between 'should be' and 'is.' It's a big space."


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Reply #67 on: May 02, 2008, 03:49:25 AM
Heh... don't know if this is y'all's cup of tea, but Serj Tankian made a cute reference to having a "Mishun akomplishd" in his "Empty Walls" video.  (Currently, my wife's favorite song.)

Speaking of said lovely wife, she told me she found out that this W money is basically coming out of any refunds we would have received on our 2008 returns... which sounds like a "pre-bate" to me.  Has anyone else got a sense of the fine print behind this deal?  If it's something we're basically going to have to pay back next tax cycle, I'd rather not spend it like a foolish grasshopper now.  I'd rather keep believing that the Congress is fiscally irresponsible, frankly.  ;)


Dunno about Congress, but my guess is that the Chinese will want their money back, eventually...

They tend to take the loooong view, though.... I wouldn't be surprised to find out that all of this is going according to Mao's plans.

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Chodon

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Reply #68 on: May 02, 2008, 10:02:45 AM
Heh... don't know if this is y'all's cup of tea, but Serj Tankian made a cute reference to having a "Mishun akomplishd" in his "Empty Walls" video.  (Currently, my wife's favorite song.)

Speaking of said lovely wife, she told me she found out that this W money is basically coming out of any refunds we would have received on our 2008 returns... which sounds like a "pre-bate" to me.  Has anyone else got a sense of the fine print behind this deal?  If it's something we're basically going to have to pay back next tax cycle, I'd rather not spend it like a foolish grasshopper now.  I'd rather keep believing that the Congress is fiscally irresponsible, frankly.  ;)


Dunno about Congress, but my guess is that the Chinese will want their money back, eventually...

They tend to take the loooong view, though.... I wouldn't be surprised to find out that all of this is going according to Mao's plans.
I posted a pie chart back on page 1 of this thread that shows who owns the US national debt.  China (or foreign countries in general) do not own a significant portion of the US debt.  I was really surprised, considering how everyone says China owns everything in the US.  Most of it is owned by the gov't itself (which is just as fishy as far as I am concerned), and the US population in the form of bonds.

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Reply #69 on: May 03, 2008, 02:46:11 AM
Heh... don't know if this is y'all's cup of tea, but Serj Tankian made a cute reference to having a "Mishun akomplishd" in his "Empty Walls" video.  (Currently, my wife's favorite song.)

Speaking of said lovely wife, she told me she found out that this W money is basically coming out of any refunds we would have received on our 2008 returns... which sounds like a "pre-bate" to me.  Has anyone else got a sense of the fine print behind this deal?  If it's something we're basically going to have to pay back next tax cycle, I'd rather not spend it like a foolish grasshopper now.  I'd rather keep believing that the Congress is fiscally irresponsible, frankly.  ;)


Dunno about Congress, but my guess is that the Chinese will want their money back, eventually...

They tend to take the loooong view, though.... I wouldn't be surprised to find out that all of this is going according to Mao's plans.
I posted a pie chart back on page 1 of this thread that shows who owns the US national debt.  China (or foreign countries in general) do not own a significant portion of the US debt.  I was really surprised, considering how everyone says China owns everything in the US.  Most of it is owned by the gov't itself (which is just as fishy as far as I am concerned), and the US population in the form of bonds.

Government of the money, by the money, and for the money.  So, I guess we literally owe it to ourselves?

I remember a lot of the same sentiments we are hearing about China now, being said about Japan 20 years ago.  Japanese companies started outperforming us, and started buying up our famous landmarks (like Rockefeller Center) and companies... and look how that turned out. 

(Wakela want to weigh in with a ground's eye view?)

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Windup

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Reply #70 on: May 03, 2008, 04:28:50 AM

I posted a pie chart back on page 1 of this thread that shows who owns the US national debt.  China (or foreign countries in general) do not own a significant portion of the US debt.  I was really surprised, considering how everyone says China owns everything in the US.  Most of it is owned by the gov't itself (which is just as fishy as far as I am concerned), and the US population in the form of bonds.


What you're seeing there with government ownership is the Social Security Trust Fund.  As the difference between collections from Social Security taxes and payouts in Social Security benefits -- currently a large positive number -- shrinks over time, the fund will buy fewer and fewer bonds, and eventually start selling them. 

For some reason, people wierd out about this. Often people whose personal portfolios contain large numbers of -- wait for it -- government bonds.   Of course, sometimes it's because they have help wierding out.  I recall one of the pro-privatization trustees declaring dramatically in his Congressional testimony, "As a Trustee of Social Security, I'm here to tell you that the Trust Fund consists of nothing but IOU's!" 

Well, I'm the owner of a private retirement account, and guess what?  IT CONSISTS OF NOTHING BUT IOU'S, EITHER!!!  That's because being an IOU is the definition of a financial asset.  A bond is an IOU for a series of future payments; a stock is an IOU for the current assets and future profits of a corporation, and so on. 

When people smart enough to know what they're saying is dumb go ahead and say it anyway -- especially with an air of gravitis -- I find THAT really fishy...

As for the Chinese, no, the absolute amount they hold is not large, but they've been large buyers over the past decade, while demand from within the US has remained largely stagnant. So they're contributing a lot of the "new money" (a.k.a. "marginal demand") important for setting currrent long-term rates (a.k.a. "price").  Though the current fear among the Captains of Investment Banking of anything that isn't government-guaranteed may have changed who the big, current buyers are. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 06:06:06 AM by Windup »

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Chodon

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Reply #71 on: May 03, 2008, 01:45:28 PM

I posted a pie chart back on page 1 of this thread that shows who owns the US national debt.  China (or foreign countries in general) do not own a significant portion of the US debt.  I was really surprised, considering how everyone says China owns everything in the US.  Most of it is owned by the gov't itself (which is just as fishy as far as I am concerned), and the US population in the form of bonds.

What you're seeing there with government ownership is the Social Security Trust Fund.  As the difference between collections from Social Security taxes and payouts in Social Security benefits -- currently a large positive number -- shrinks over time, the fund will buy fewer and fewer bonds, and eventually start selling them. 
Isn't it a little concerning to you that the government can issue itself bonds like this though?  That's the part I find concerning.  This whole thread started talking about the "W" money, which I see as one major threat to the value of US currency (which the international market tends to agree with at the moment).  Businesses can't issue bonds to themselves.  Individuals can't do that.  Why can the government?  Where are they getting the assets to buy the bonds?  Issuance of more bonds? ???

For some reason, people wierd out about this. Often people whose personal portfolios contain large numbers of -- wait for it -- government bonds.   Of course, sometimes it's because they have help wierding out.  I recall one of the pro-privatization trustees declaring dramatically in his Congressional testimony, "As a Trustee of Social Security, I'm here to tell you that the Trust Fund consists of nothing but IOU's!" 

Well, I'm the owner of a private retirement account, and guess what?  IT CONSISTS OF NOTHING BUT IOU'S, EITHER!!!  That's because being an IOU is the definition of a financial asset.  A bond is an IOU for a series of future payments; a stock is an IOU for the current assets and future profits of a corporation, and so on. 
That isn't entirely true.  If a corporation goes bankrupt (chapter 7, not 11) bondholders are entitled to a share of the assets proportional to their bond value.  Stockholders, well, not so much.  Bonds come first.  Government bonds however are backed up by the government's word.  It has worked fantastic in the past, and probably will in the future.  However, if the government somehow went bankrupt it's not like they are going to mail you a landing gear from an old F-4 to repay the bond commitments in the way you might get some cash from sale of a business' assets at auction.  Of course, the government can't go bankrupt because they can print their own cash.  What does that mean?  The cash would be de-valued (inflation).

When people smart enough to know what they're saying is dumb go ahead and say it anyway -- especially with an air of gravitis -- I find THAT really fishy...
I'm not sure it that one was meant as a dig at me or not...I just stated that I don't like the government buying their own bonds.  It is essentially creating cash out of nothing, which is what I find fishy.  If I said anything dumb (which I do often) I would make sure to retract it, not go ahead and say it anyway.

As for the Chinese, no, the absolute amount they hold is not large, but they've been large buyers over the past decade, while demand from within the US has remained largely stagnant. So they're contributing a lot of the "new money" (a.k.a. "marginal demand") important for setting currrent long-term rates (a.k.a. "price").  Though the current fear among the Captains of Investment Banking of anything that isn't government-guaranteed may have changed who the big, current buyers are. 
People blame the Chinese for everything lately, and it's really getting old.  Lead in paint (which was specified by toy manufacturers, not the Chinese).  Mattel is the manufacturer of these toys, not the People's Republic of China!  Now it's the fact they are buying US government securities.  It's like there is some sort of smear campaign against China.  Yes, China's human rights record is terrible.  They have most favored nation trade status though.  The consequences of boycotting them would be enormous.  Consumer products pricing would be through the roof. 

One thing I don't understand (Windup, maybe you could clear this up for me) is if the Chinese ownership of US bonds is personal ownership (Chinese citizens buying bonds) or governmental.  I would be a lot more concerned about the latter.

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Windup

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Reply #72 on: May 03, 2008, 04:41:18 PM

I posted a pie chart back on page 1 of this thread that shows who owns the US national debt.  China (or foreign countries in general) do not own a significant portion of the US debt.  I was really surprised, considering how everyone says China owns everything in the US.  Most of it is owned by the gov't itself (which is just as fishy as far as I am concerned), and the US population in the form of bonds.

What you're seeing there with government ownership is the Social Security Trust Fund.  As the difference between collections from Social Security taxes and payouts in Social Security benefits -- currently a large positive number -- shrinks over time, the fund will buy fewer and fewer bonds, and eventually start selling them. 
Isn't it a little concerning to you that the government can issue itself bonds like this though?  That's the part I find concerning.  This whole thread started talking about the "W" money, which I see as one major threat to the value of US currency (which the international market tends to agree with at the moment).  Businesses can't issue bonds to themselves.  Individuals can't do that.  Why can the government?  Where are they getting the assets to buy the bonds?  Issuance of more bonds? ???

Bear in mind that we have essentially two entities here -- the SS Trust Fund and the General Fund. Reality is far more complicated, but for purposes of illustration, it makes sense to divide the bookkeeping world into "SS Trust Fund" and "The General Fund" (a.k.a. "everything else").

Currently, the General Fund is issuing bonds and spending the proceeds, while the Trust Fund keeps buying them.  Essentially, the Trust Fund gives the General Fund its current cash (from Social Security taxes) in exchange for a promise by the General Fund to give back more cash (principle + interest) at a future date.  The same thing happens if the bond is purchased by a bank, a corporation, or me. At the moment, as the bonds fall due, the Trust fund uses the proceeds to buy more bonds. Eventually, the Trust will stop buying bonds and start taking the payments and paying the cash out to beneficiaries.  When that happens, the General Fund must either borrow funds from another source, raise additional tax revenue, or cut spending on other programs -- the exact same set of choices it faces if those bonds were held by anyone else.

To the extent that there's a problem here, it's that for accounting purposes, the surplus (spending lower than tax receipts) being accumuated by the Trust Fund offsets the deficit (spending higher than tax receipts) being racked up by the General Fund.  While that doesn't endanger Social Security, it means the problems in the General Fund are worse than most people realize. 

[/quote]

For some reason, people wierd out about this. Often people whose personal portfolios contain large numbers of -- wait for it -- government bonds.   Of course, sometimes it's because they have help wierding out.  I recall one of the pro-privatization trustees declaring dramatically in his Congressional testimony, "As a Trustee of Social Security, I'm here to tell you that the Trust Fund consists of nothing but IOU's!" 

Well, I'm the owner of a private retirement account, and guess what?  IT CONSISTS OF NOTHING BUT IOU'S, EITHER!!!  That's because being an IOU is the definition of a financial asset.  A bond is an IOU for a series of future payments; a stock is an IOU for the current assets and future profits of a corporation, and so on. 


That isn't entirely true.  If a corporation goes bankrupt (chapter 7, not 11) bondholders are entitled to a share of the assets proportional to their bond value.  Stockholders, well, not so much.  Bonds come first.  Government bonds however are backed up by the government's word.  It has worked fantastic in the past, and probably will in the future.  However, if the government somehow went bankrupt it's not like they are going to mail you a landing gear from an old F-4 to repay the bond commitments in the way you might get some cash from sale of a business' assets at auction.  Of course, the government can't go bankrupt because they can print their own cash.  What does that mean?  The cash would be de-valued (inflation).


My point is that anything we call a financial asset is an IOU of some sort.  An IOU is no better or worse than the entity that issues it, and comes down to the reliability and adequacy of the entity's future cash flows. (An elementary fact that seems to have eluded many of those "well-disciplined" private bankers pulling down six and seven figure salaries, but that's a different discussion.) Trying to get people upset about the fact the trust fund "contains nothing but IOU's" is intellectually dishonest.  It's going to contain IOU's from somebody -- whose would you rather it was holding right now -- the US Government's, or say, Bear Sterns?

And no, the "saying thing you know to be dumb with a tone of gravitis" comment was certainly not directed at you. You seem to be making a perfectly honest attempt to get your head around the situation.  The comment was directed at people like the trustee I mentioned, and worthies of places such as the Heritage Foundation, who assume the tones of vastly superior wisdom and experience, and the proceed to make blatantly dishonest statements, like the one about IOU's.  Or the web "calculator" that a pro-privatization site put up that would tell you things like "your monthly payments would be $302.68 higher with private accounts than with standard Social Security."  Anyone who has done even a modicum of serious retirement planning knows that any predictions about the ultimate outcome of an investment program are wildly speculative, especially more than a few years out.  Alas, it will probably work, because the share of the population that's done realistic retirement planning is very small.


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Chodon

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Reply #73 on: May 04, 2008, 02:34:18 AM
Bear in mind that we have essentially two entities here -- the SS Trust Fund and the General Fund. Reality is far more complicated, but for purposes of illustration, it makes sense to divide the bookkeeping world into "SS Trust Fund" and "The General Fund" (a.k.a. "everything else").

Currently, the General Fund is issuing bonds and spending the proceeds, while the Trust Fund keeps buying them.  Essentially, the Trust Fund gives the General Fund its current cash (from Social Security taxes) in exchange for a promise by the General Fund to give back more cash (principle + interest) at a future date.  The same thing happens if the bond is purchased by a bank, a corporation, or me. At the moment, as the bonds fall due, the Trust fund uses the proceeds to buy more bonds. Eventually, the Trust will stop buying bonds and start taking the payments and paying the cash out to beneficiaries.  When that happens, the General Fund must either borrow funds from another source, raise additional tax revenue, or cut spending on other programs -- the exact same set of choices it faces if those bonds were held by anyone else.

To the extent that there's a problem here, it's that for accounting purposes, the surplus (spending lower than tax receipts) being accumuated by the Trust Fund offsets the deficit (spending higher than tax receipts) being racked up by the General Fund.  While that doesn't endanger Social Security, it means the problems in the General Fund are worse than most people realize. 

It seems pretty clear that you have a better understanding of the cogs behind the system than I, so maybe you could answer some questions for me.

Where does the trust fund get the cash from which to buy the bonds?  It just seems at some point there is money being pulled out of some magic hat, which to me screams 'inflation'.  The government is running without a balanced budget, that much we know.  Are they issuing enough bonds to generate the cash to cover the shortfall in tax revenue?  If not, how are they making up the difference?

On a side note, why is inflation so stinking high right now?  Everyone (including the media) is complaining about high prices for food, fuel, raw materials, etc.  To me it just looks like the dollar is devaluing.  I remember when 1 British Pound was $1.50, now it's over $2.  What is the root cause?

Thanks for the clarification on this stuff, Windup!  ;D

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Windup

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Reply #74 on: May 04, 2008, 07:34:39 AM

Where does the trust fund get the cash from which to buy the bonds?  It just seems at some point there is money being pulled out of some magic hat, which to me screams 'inflation'. 


The Social Security Trust Fund's main source of income is payroll taxes on workers and employers.  This shows up as the FICA line on your pay stub; your employer contributes an equal amount.  If you're self-employed, you pay the equivalent of both the "worker" and "employer" portions. 

Throughout most of the system's history, there was a rough parity between the taxes collected and the benefits paid out on a yearly basis.  The purpose of the Trust Funds was to serve as a "buffer" to ensure that benefit checks could be issued monthly in an orderly manner, even if payroll tax collections fluctuated over time. Following reforms during the Reagan administration, the system began to collect more in taxes than it paid out in benefits on an ongoing basis, with the intention of accumulating a large surplus -- invested exclusively in government-issued securities for safety -- that would be drawn down to pay for the retirement of the baby boomers. 

As a result of some additional reforms passed later, the SS trust funds get some additional income from a tax on the Social Security benefits of high-income recipients.  However, this is fairly small compared to the payroll tax.


The government is running without a balanced budget, that much we know.  Are they issuing enough bonds to generate the cash to cover the shortfall in tax revenue?  If not, how are they making up the difference?


Meanwhile, over at the General Fund, expenditures are higher than tax collections.  To make up the difference, the Federal government issues bonds -- meaning that someone gives them money up front, in exchange for a series of payments. 


On a side note, why is inflation so stinking high right now?  Everyone (including the media) is complaining about high prices for food, fuel, raw materials, etc.  To me it just looks like the dollar is devaluing.  I remember when 1 British Pound was $1.50, now it's over $2.  What is the root cause?


Don't get me started on the whole screwed-up way we talk about inflation. 

The rising price of any good or service or group of goods or services doesn't prove squat about inflation one way or another.  In an economy of any complexity at all, some prices will be rising and some will be falling.  What the inflation number tries to get at is the change in the general level of prices in the economy.  For example, if the increase in the cost of oil were precisely offset by a fall in the price of steel (or whatever), there would be no change at all in the general price level, even though the price of oil rose. If the price of everything in the economy were to rise at the same time, that would definitely constitute a rise in general price level.  However, except in very extreme situations -- like Zimbabwe -- that never happens.

At the simplest level, inflation means there is too much money chasing too few goods and services -- the money supply has been allowed to grow faster than the "real" economy.  Unfortunately, figuring out both the "size" of the real economy and the effective size of the money supply are both fraught with statistical uncertainty.  To make matters worse, there also appears to be a psychological "expectations" component that's even harder to quantify.

So, somewhere in the system, we're creating dollars faster than we're creating things to buy with dollars, but it's darn difficult to figure out where the problem actually lies. Much of the bad economic news -- bankruptcies, defaults, reduction in lending, reduction in the rate at which money changes hands, etc. tend to reduce the effective money supply.  The Fed has been trying to offset this by buying special securities and paying for them with dollars it creates in an effort to increase the money supply and lower interest rates.

But the bottom line is, nobody knows for sure. One of the big undereported stories of the last twenty years is that many of the tools we used to rely on to figure out say, the money supply have become useless.  M1, once considered the most definitive measure of total dollars, became so unstable sometime in the late 80's that the Fed quit using it.  Ditto a number of other important metrics. 


I remember when 1 British Pound was $1.50, now it's over $2.  What is the root cause?


Exchange rates are a somewhat-seperate deal. 

The main reason you'll accept that little electronic blip representing some number of "dollars" that your employer gives you for a week's work are that you have confidence that when you go to the grocery store or gas station and propose to exchange the electronic blips for goods and services, you'll be able to do so.  The merchants accept the dollars from you because they believe the same thing -- they'll be able to acquire things they want by offering dollars for them.  And so on.

So, the ultimate value of any medium of exchange -- dollars, gold, dinar, francs, pretty shells, etc. -- lies in people's belief that they can use it to get what they want.  In one sense, a nation's currency is an IOU for the output of the entire economy. 

For years, what we've been getting more stuff from other economies than we've been giving in return -- imports have been larger than exports.  The net effect is that we push a steadily-growing amount of dollars to other countries, whose citizens assume that at some time in the future, they'll be able to use them to get something they want.  (These are often held in the form of Treasury securities held by central banks of other countries.) Remember, those dollars represent a claim on the future output of the American economy. 

At some point in this process, enough people decide that maybe the American economy won't be able to produce enough "stuff" to cover all those dollars, (or that inflation may require them to pay more dollars for what they want than they expected) so they start demanding more dollars in exchange for their "stuff," or to be paid in another currency.  This makes Americans less likely to buy imported products -- because they cost more -- and since American producers pay most of their expenses in dollars, it lowers the cost of American goods in other currencies and makes it easier to export.  So the imbalance straightens itself out over time.

Of course, this is a hugely simplified explanation on a subject that thousands of people have expended their careers on, and the real world is riddled with exceptions to all this, but at least it's a start.

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