Author Topic: Censorship attitudes in the UK  (Read 32241 times)

wakela

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on: May 21, 2008, 11:43:49 PM
I saw this entry on Twenty Sided video game blog.  Basically, a PC game featuring a nude scene was released in Europe, but the nudity was edited out in the American version.  This is because Wal-Mart refused to stock the game with the nudity in it.  Some commentors compared government censorship in the UK to corporate censorship in the US.

I'm not really interested in getting into a huge flamewar about censorship or Wal-Mart.    What interested me was that there were a several comments coming from the UK favoring government censorship to corporate censorship.  The argument was that one can petition the government to change the law, but you can't petition a corporation; they can do what they want. 

As an American I found this attitude very surprising.  If I have to have censorship (and we all do in one form or another) then I can't see how government censorship would be better.  So I wanted to bring this up with this group of international, informed, intelligent folks.  Am I missing something?  Is it regarded as easy to change laws in the UK?  Are UK citizens less sensitive about censorship?

Again,  I don't really want this to get off on why censorship is teh suxors, I'm trying to get a handle on how the British feel about it. 

Edited.  Added link.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 02:55:06 AM by wakela »



wintermute

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Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 12:14:50 AM
I'm kind of ambivalent about censorship of this nature, which is generally "it is a criminal offence to expose people under the age of x to this media", where x varies between 12 and 18.

On the one hand, it means you're far less likely to get people calling for an outright ban on violent or sexual games / movies "for the children". And it makes it very easy for parents to give a good reason why their 16-year-old kids can't go and see the latest 18-rated movie.

But, on the other hand, it obviously makes it harder for parents to decide that their kids are mature enough to handle a given movie. Though as this only really applies to sale (or at least, is only enforceable for sale), once it's in the house parents have all the freedom they want.

So, yeah. Good points and bad points. I can see why it seems illiberal from an American point of view, but I'm not sure it really is.

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qwints

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Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 02:02:26 AM
I think watching This Film is Not Yet Rated changed my opinion on this. As much as I dislike censorship, it should be done with as clear standards as possible. Otherwise, it's for too easy for another agenda to enter into censorship. In US film, homosexual sensuality is censored far more heavily than heterosexual sensuality. Comedic violence is tolerated far more than documentary violence. I really dislike the idea that the agenda of our media can be set by hidden people with hidden agendas.

On the other hand, the US has much more robust protection for political speech. Falwell v Hustler means Americans can basically say whatever they want about any public figure unless it's a deliberate lie and meant to harm. It's much easier to win a libel suit in England.

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Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 07:34:23 AM
I think the push for ID in science class and abstinence only sex-ed (hang on I'm getting there) show the danger of letting the government have control of these things.  Groups start getting people into positions of power just to legislate morals. 

In movie sales there is the same corporate problem.  Wal-mart has restrictions for movies with nudity.  Exploding heads are OK, but if there's nudity, it goes in the "adult"section if the store has one.  To counter-act this many movies are released in two versions.  One version is Wal-mart friendly and then there's the directors cut or added scenes version which is sold everywhere else.  The other stores also like this, because they can sell something that is "exclusive" to all non-wal-mart stores.  They should have done the same with the game.



Alasdair5000

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Reply #4 on: May 22, 2008, 08:44:33 AM
I saw this entry on Twenty Sided video game blog.  Basically, a PC game featuring a nude scene was released in Europe, but the nudity was edited out in the American version.  This is because Wal-Mart refused to stock the game with the nudity in it.  Some commentors compared government censorship in the UK to corporate censorship in the US.

I'm not really interested in getting into a huge flamewar about censorship or Wal-Mart.    What interested me was that there were a several comments coming from the UK favoring government censorship to corporate censorship.  The argument was that one can petition the government to change the law, but you can't petition a corporation; they can do what they want. 

As an American I found this attitude very surprising.  If I have to have censorship (and we all do in one form or another) then I can't see how government censorship would be better.  So I wanted to bring this up with this group of international, informed, intelligent folks.  Am I missing something?  Is it regarded as easy to change laws in the UK?  Are UK citizens less sensitive about censorship?

Again,  I don't really want this to get off on why censorship is teh suxors, I'm trying to get a handle on how the British feel about it. 

Edited.  Added link.

   The interesting thing about thgis is that, certainly regarding computer games, censorship in this country is meaningless.  When GTAIV was released over here, the Breakfast News attempted to bleat about it being sold to kids and had it pointed out to them, yet again, that the computer game industry is incredibly tightly regulated here.  There are TWO seperate rating schemes, the people I know who work in game retail are ordered to ask for ID if someone even looks like they might be under age and in the end, it amounts to absolutely nothing.

   Because parents will just buy the game, or the movie, for them.

   I'm not going to go into whether or not that's a bad thing, because it's a complex issue and because I was getting into 18 movies from when I was about 14 (6'1 for a looooong time) but what irritates me is the fact that the industry is trying very hard to regulate itself, doing a good job and STILL being criticised and restricted for something which isn't even under it's control.



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #5 on: May 22, 2008, 11:58:28 AM
Government or Corporate censorship is simply censorship at the wrong level.  "What is the right level?" You are.

The whole mealy-mouthed whinefest over children possibly seeing a penis or a gangsta smackin' a ho is WAY over-blown.  No, I don't show these things to my children... but I don't expect WalMart or the government to do my previewing for me.  I decide what I will bring into my home; if I don't want them to see it, I don't bring it in.  And if they go to someone else's house, I make sure I trust that person's judgement first.

But even the most attentive parent HAS to take risks that their child will eventually come into contact with something unsavory in the world.  I had an example this week; my 9-year old son (who is deeply into Goosebumps lately) was in the car when Creepy Doll by Jonathan Coulton popped up on the iPod.  I figured he'd like the song because he's in 3rd grade and obsessed with monsters and scaring the crap out of himself.

He seemed to really dig it... until bedtime, when he freaked out and didn't want to go to sleep.

Now, should I sue JoCo for writing a song like that?  Last.fm for hosting it?  Escape Pod for getting me hooked on JoCo?  Louisville Slugger for making bats?  No.  I shouldn't.

Sure, you could probably come up with all kids of scenarios where something really horrible gets to their sensitive little eyeballs that I can't control... but I believe that you take assume that risk by living here (on the planet), and it shouldn't be up to WalMart to protect you.  Frankly, I think religious literature and self-help books are far more dangerous than any porno, but which one do my children see every time we walk through a grocery store checkout or WalMart book section?

You do always have a choice in these matters, and even though it is extreme and difficult and incredibly stupid to do so, you always have the option of that vacant Unabomber cabin in Montana to hide yourself from the Evil world.  Personally, I think my children are pretty bright, and I'm involved enough to help them figure out which things they see are "good" and which are "bad."

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Chodon

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Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 01:42:59 PM
Government censorship can be changed with votes.

Corporate censorship can be changed with currency.

If I want something that Wal-Mart won't sell me I'll just go somewhere else to buy it.  Sucks to be Wal-Mart.  However, if the government of the majority feels like they should impose their morals on someone with legislation all that can be done is vote against those who are in power (or risk punishment for breaking the law).  I like the corporate side a lot better.

TAD's comment about personal accountability is dead on.  If someone wants to raise their kid on slasher movies I may have a moral objection to that, but I should't have the right to remove their right to raise their kid as they wish.

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tpi

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Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 05:10:30 PM
By the way, can someone explain American (or should I say anglo-american) conviction that nakedness is something horribly harmful for children? It is something hard to understand for someone who lives is a country where families go to the sauna together - often until children are on their teens.



wintermute

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Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 05:22:36 PM
By the way, can someone explain American (or should I say anglo-american) conviction that nakedness is something horribly harmful for children? It is something hard to understand for someone who lives is a country where families go to the sauna together - often until children are on their teens.
No, but I can reccomend reading Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children from Sex, for an excellent explanation of why the European model is far superior.

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cuddlebug

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Reply #9 on: May 23, 2008, 05:25:23 PM
Thanks tpi for asking that question, I've always wanted to know that myself. Why is nudity viewed as something that might harm a child's development while violence is often not (please see examples in previous posts in this thread)?

Coming from a country where nudity within the family is a way of raising a child to be comfortable with their body, a country where sunbathing in the (semi-)nude in public parks does NOT necessarily lead to being arrested for 'indecent exposure' as is the case in my current country of residence and the US (at least in some states, as far as I remember) and a country where figures on teenage pregnancies are generally much lower than in the UK or the US (since we are speaking of raising children, teenage pregnancies seem very relevant, IMO), this whole issue puzzles me again and again.  If someone can explain this from an American perspective it would maybe help shed a light on the censorship question.





eytanz

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Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 05:32:25 PM
Let me preface my comments by stating that as a general rule, I'm opposed to censorship. *But*, if it is a forgone conclusion that there will be censorship on an issue, then I would prefer it to be (democratic) government regulated than corporation regulated.

As Chodon points out, corporate censorship can be changed with currency. However, the nature of corporations is such that it will only ever change in one direction - that of increasing the level of censorship.

To show this, lets take an example. Imagine that a new movie comes out where the main character constantly spits food on the people he eats with. About half of the population think it's justified because it's used to a comedic effect. Another 45% or so of the population are turned off by this, but they just don't watch the movie. The last 5% are really upset. "Movies are teaching our kids bad table manners!" they shout. They start a letter writing campaign to Blockbuster, Best Buy, Walmart, and other major retailers of movies and tell them to take the movies of the shelves.

Imagine that Walmart reacts by pulling the movie, and none of the other comapnies do. Well, if you want that particular movie, you will go to Best Buy or Blockbuster. But for all your other purchases, you'll still go to Walmart. On the other hand, Best Buy and Blockbuster will keep being pressured to remove the movie. They will have to deal with a large volume of mail, and with protestors outside the store, and with people calling up on radio shows and TV talk shows and saying "Blockbuster and Best Buy are ruining our youth!". After a while, they'll find it easier and cheaper to just remove the movie. Now, there is no longer any way to get the movie. So no-one gets the $10 you would pay for it. But the loss of $10 per movie is significantly less than the cost of dealing with a negative publicity campaign.

Now, of course there could be a counter-campaign raised by anti-censorship groups, but the problem is that they have to fight each censorship battle. The offended sides, however, will differ per issue. Sometimes it's religious people, sometimes its anti-religious people, sometimes it's anti-racism groups, sometimes it's anti-gay groups, and so forth. So there are a lot more of them, and they have fresh resources/energy each time. Some battles against censorship may be one, but the war is stacked in the favor of the complainers.

And corporations don't have to wait for complaints. A movie that might cause offense? Never stock it. If you have it on the shelf and remove it, people might hear about it, but if it was never there? You might never notice. Say Walmart silently decides that they will not stock movies that offend scientologists. Someone makes a documentary about Scientology, and Walmart never buys it Most people don't watch documentaries, so they don't care. They still shop at Walmart for other movies. Even most of the documentary crowd will not notice, as they will simply get a different documentary. They aren't aware that something is missing because they never heard about it.

Government censorship - in a democracy - has several advantages. One of them is that governments have a harder time to do things quietly. It's still possible to do so - stick a provision in some unrelated law or some other trick - but governments must publicize their laws, and people will notice. A corporation is under no legal obligation to report its censorship policies.

But most importantly, the equation is as follows:

- Government censorship can allow the majority to silent the minority. Therefore, it is bad.
- Corporate censorship allows majorities to silence minorities AND minorities to silence majorities. Therefore, it is far worse.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 06:02:03 PM by eytanz »



eytanz

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Reply #11 on: May 23, 2008, 05:35:30 PM
a country where sunbathing in the (semi-)nude in public parks does NOT necessarily lead to being arrested for 'indecent exposure' as is the case in my current country of residence

Well, depending on what you mean that's not true. Women cannot be arrested in the UK for "indecent exposure" by going topless, only for lower body nudity. It is possible to run afoul of "causing a public disturbance" laws, though.



cuddlebug

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Reply #12 on: May 23, 2008, 05:42:30 PM
a country where sunbathing in the (semi-)nude in public parks does NOT necessarily lead to being arrested for 'indecent exposure' as is the case in my current country of residence

Well, depending on what you mean that's not true. Women cannot be arrested in the UK for "indecent exposure" by going topless, only for lower body nudity. It is possible to run afoul of "causing a public disturbance" laws, though.

Oh, that is good to know, thanks for that eytanz. I was misinformed then, Excellent piece of information, I've always wanted to walk around topless just to piss people off, well now I know I won't be arrested, I might just do that this weekend.  :P



cuddlebug

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Reply #13 on: May 23, 2008, 05:48:03 PM
a country where sunbathing in the (semi-)nude in public parks does NOT necessarily lead to being arrested for 'indecent exposure' as is the case in my current country of residence

Well, depending on what you mean that's not true. Women cannot be arrested in the UK for "indecent exposure" by going topless, only for lower body nudity. It is possible to run afoul of "causing a public disturbance" laws, though.

Oh, that is good to know, thanks for that eytanz. I was misinformed then, Excellent piece of information, I've always wanted to walk around topless just to piss people off, well now I know I won't be arrested, I might just do that this weekend.  :P

And eytanz, how do you know that actually? Did you check? Did someone who was planning to visit ask you to clarify in order to avoid an encounter with law enforcement officers, or was that the intention in the first place? ... encounter law enforcement officers, that is. I know a few women who have a bit of a uniform fetish.



eytanz

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Reply #14 on: May 23, 2008, 05:55:55 PM
And eytanz, how do you know that actually? Did you check?

Yes.

Quote
Did someone who was planning to visit ask you to clarify in order to avoid an encounter with law enforcement officers, or was that the intention in the first place? ... encounter law enforcement officers, that is. I know a few women who have a bit of a uniform fetish.

No.

(Specifically, I used to know some people who were in a New York based pro-nudist advocacy group and went to one of their protests once, where I was educated on a whole lot of public nudity laws around the world).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 05:58:56 PM by eytanz »



qwints

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Reply #15 on: May 23, 2008, 06:07:55 PM
Government censorship can be changed with votes.

Corporate censorship can be changed with currency.

If I want something that Wal-Mart won't sell me I'll just go somewhere else to buy it.  Sucks to be Wal-Mart.  However, if the government of the majority feels like they should impose their morals on someone with legislation all that can be done is vote against those who are in power (or risk punishment for breaking the law).  I like the corporate side a lot better.

I think my opinion differs because of my opinion on media conglomeration (which has been discussed elsewhere). The MPAA has a virtual monopoly on movies played in theaters because big chains won't play movies rated X. Thus war documentaries with explicit violence can be kept out of the publics view by a corporation for unclear reasons. If a government did that, the nature of the censorship would be much clearer. Or consider movies, companies like Walmart and Blockbuster dominate the market of DVD sales. Sure, I can find alternative sources for alternative movies, but these companies can keep alternative views out of the market place of ideas in a very real way.

Another example comes from the Danish cartoon controversy. No major US newspaper would print them. CNN pixelated them when it aired them. Borders pulled a magazine from its shelves when it printed them. Sure, they were fairly easy to find online, but they were effectively removed from the national discourse and people were able to make these outlandish claims about cartoons that were really not that offensive.

The worst is when the corporate media implicitly conspire with government objectives. How many dead Iraqi civilians have we seen on TV? The Lancet says 600,000 Iraqis are dead while the most conservative estimates exceed 80,000. In the last half of 2007, US soldiers killed at least 600 Iraqi civilians.(http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/the-price-of-loss/ ) These stories are kept out of mainstream US news and thus out of the public discourse.

[Sorry if this turned into a bit of a rant]

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Chodon

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Reply #16 on: May 23, 2008, 06:29:19 PM
The problem with government censorship is the fact that it is absolute.  If the government says you can't have something and you're caught having it you go to jail.  Go directly to jail.  Do not pass go.  Do not collect $200.  On the other hand, corporate censorship makes things more difficult to get (eytanz made that point exceptionally well), but it is still not impossible.  Blockbuster and Wal-mart may not carry "Men Alone 2, the KY Connection", but if I want to get it from some seedy porno shop I don't have to fear arrest, fine, or imprisonment.

My point is, if you want something bad enough you can find it, no matter how taboo it may be.  The fact that you can't pick it up while you're buying Huggies and Coors Light doesn't matter.  If, however, the government says you can't have it you are risking a whole lot more by obtaining it.

I should also add that I think any form of censorship is bad, and on further thought I think "corporate censorship" is a bad phrase.  It's more "appealing to their target market".

All the more reason to not shop at Wal-mart.

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Chodon

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Reply #17 on: May 23, 2008, 06:53:05 PM
By the way, can someone explain American (or should I say anglo-american) conviction that nakedness is something horribly harmful for children? It is something hard to understand for someone who lives is a country where families go to the sauna together - often until children are on their teens.
I think it comes from our Puritan/Quaker roots.  For some reason some Americans make the connection between seeing boobies and putting one's mortal soul in jeopardy of eternal damnation.  I can't say I follow, but that's the take I have on it.  The people against nudity are just a very vocal minority from my experiences.

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qwints

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Reply #18 on: May 24, 2008, 03:00:59 AM
The problem with government censorship is the fact that it is absolute.  If the government says you can't have something and you're caught having it you go to jail.  Go directly to jail.  Do not pass go.  Do not collect $200.  On the other hand, corporate censorship makes things more difficult to get (eytanz made that point exceptionally well), but it is still not impossible.

I think there is a difference between Hayes code style/FCC style censorship and criminalization. Outlawing child pornography could be seen as a form of censorship, but it's much more about the harm done than the speech itself. My biggest objection to censorship is not that it makes certain materials hard to access, but that it blocks certain ideas from the national forum. The FCC can't effectively censor anti-government views because that would cause a big news story/lots of publicity and thus make those views even more heard. Corporate control of the public forum is much more insidious. For a long time, normal homosexual relationships were effectively banned from movie theaters. Documentaries showing the violence of war have to be toned down to be able to be presented to the public.

For me, the difference comes down to who's watching the censors. Most of the time, the news media watches the government very closely. If ITunes or Amazon or Walmart decide not to stock something, however, it is effectively erased from the public forum and no one asks why. This is dangerous.

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Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #19 on: May 25, 2008, 03:26:14 AM
By the way, can someone explain American (or should I say anglo-american) conviction that nakedness is something horribly harmful for children? It is something hard to understand for someone who lives is a country where families go to the sauna together - often until children are on their teens.
I think it comes from our Puritan/Quaker roots.  For some reason some Americans make the connection between seeing boobies and putting one's mortal soul in jeopardy of eternal damnation.  I can't say I follow, but that's the take I have on it.  The people against nudity are just a very vocal minority from my experiences.

I'm sure once I say this, everyone else will come in and say "But I'M American and that's not MY experience"... so I'll qualify that in MY experience, that's the most basic explanation for it.

Overtly, the logic is taken from scriptures that speak about "keeping your thoughts pure".  The one we used to be hit over the head with in my Sunday School was Matthew 5:28 "...but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Obviously, if you follow that link, you'll see more in a similar vein.  And this one shows several parallel translations of Colossians 3:5; I point you to it to show how scary it can sound to people when something as vague as "sexual immorality" is forbidden.  Imagine the most stern and fearsome authority figure in your life sticking a finger in your face and reciting the King James Version.  You might not know what it is, but you will fall down and promise never to do anything that seems to come close just to avoid having your members put to death!

Sorry for throwing Bible verses around, but you asked... and for nearly all of the moralists I have known in my 30+ years, that's where it comes from.  Pure, ignorant, mis-translated fear.

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Chodon

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Reply #20 on: May 25, 2008, 01:10:42 PM
(snip)
If ITunes or Amazon or Walmart decide not to stock something, however, it is effectively erased from the public forum and no one asks why. This is dangerous.
That was true at one point, but with instant global communication that is no longer the case.  I think that this forum and group of podcasts are evidence of that fact.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Chodon

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Reply #21 on: May 25, 2008, 01:16:22 PM
I'm sure once I say this, everyone else will come in and say "But I'M American and that's not MY experience"... so I'll qualify that in MY experience, that's the most basic explanation for it.

Overtly, the logic is taken from scriptures that speak about "keeping your thoughts pure".  The one we used to be hit over the head with in my Sunday School was Matthew 5:28 "...but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Obviously, if you follow that link, you'll see more in a similar vein.  And this one shows several parallel translations of Colossians 3:5; I point you to it to show how scary it can sound to people when something as vague as "sexual immorality" is forbidden.  Imagine the most stern and fearsome authority figure in your life sticking a finger in your face and reciting the King James Version.  You might not know what it is, but you will fall down and promise never to do anything that seems to come close just to avoid having your members put to death!

Sorry for throwing Bible verses around, but you asked... and for nearly all of the moralists I have known in my 30+ years, that's where it comes from.  Pure, ignorant, mis-translated fear.
It's so strange that we're a country founded by people fleeing religious persecution because of their puritan/quaker beliefs, but also such a violent and conflict driven nation.  If we were such a violent group of people why not fight it out in our original countries? 
Maybe it's a sign of the diversity we have here, but sometimes the very same people who thump the bible are the ones who are the most violent.  It's just an interesting duality, especially when the bible explicitly makes its stance on violence (but then contradicts it a bunch of times). :-\

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qwints

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Reply #22 on: May 25, 2008, 06:11:18 PM
(snip)
If ITunes or Amazon or Walmart decide not to stock something, however, it is effectively erased from the public forum and no one asks why. This is dangerous.
That was true at one point, but with instant global communication that is no longer the case.  I think that this forum and group of podcasts are evidence of that fact.

Is it still available? yes
Will some people still care? Yes
Will it affect the national debate? No.

If availability on the internet was the criterion for cultural relevance, then Ron Paul would win the presidency. Obviously ideas do not have to reach a large audience to be good or worth hearing. Systematic exclusion of ideas from mainstream channels of distribution can still marginalize those ideas. Although this is now changing, how many normal homosexual relationships did you see in popular culture before this decade. Will & Grace and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy did a lot to change public perceptions of gays because they were a part of the public forum. People were aware of them, even if they didn't watch them. The "new atheist" books have similarly entered the public consciousness even if people haven't read them. But there are still images and ideas that are virtually banned from the public forum without discussion by corporations which for, whatever reason, don't want them aired. Chief among these is the horrific collateral damage of war. We don't know what the wars we support look like because unelected bureaucrats keep the descriptions and pictures out of the main channels of distribution. (Though Fahrenheit 9/11 does represent an exception.)

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Windup

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Reply #23 on: May 25, 2008, 11:11:23 PM

But there are still images and ideas that are virtually banned from the public forum without discussion by corporations which for, whatever reason, don't want them aired. Chief among these is the horrific collateral damage of war. We don't know what the wars we support look like because unelected bureaucrats keep the descriptions and pictures out of the main channels of distribution.


This is one of my long-standing points of exasperation with the American public at large, and I'm not sure it can be blamed completely on the military PR staff -- nobody is easier to fool than the person who wants to be deceived.

Large numbers of Americans seem to harbor the notion that something as randomly violent and confusing as a sustained combat operation can be carried out without anybody getting hurt who doesn't somehow deserve it.  When you start sustained combat, you know the following things willl occur:
  • Economic displacement will blight the lives and future prospects of some number of people in the combat area.  In most cases, these losses will be very difficult to compensate.  The longer it goes on and the wider the area, the more people this will happen to.
  • Civilians will die as a direct result of operations. More civilians than soldiers died in every war during the 20th century.  No reason to think the 21st will be any different.  For all our improvements in targeting, intelligence failures will occur, mistakes will be made in passing information, equipment will fail, and scared people without enough sleep will screw up. And they'll screw up with really, really lethal means.
  • Your soldiers will commit atrocities.  Some will simply make bad decisions, others will find the temptation of being armed and unsupervised in a vulnerable population too great to handle.  We will  (and should) punish them after the fact (usually), but we have no business acting surprised when it happens.

These are, as Donald Rumsfeld famously put it, part of the "known knowns."  If your objective isn't worth that price, then you need to find another means to that objective, or give it up.  For some reason, we can't seem to get this through our heads.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 02:17:50 AM by Windup »

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Reply #24 on: May 26, 2008, 02:07:37 AM

This is one of my long-standing points of exasperation with the American public at large, and I'm not sure it can be blamed completely on the military PR staff -- nobody is easier to fool than the person who wants to be deceived.


I have a dear friend of (Holy Crap!) nearly 20 years who still says to me, "You argue better than I do, you know more, and you're smarter than I am... but that doesn't mean you're going to change my mind about this."  Usually after I present exactly the same arguments you just presented.

Her other favorite line is, "You may be right, but Saddam still had it comin'."

And she would cry over what you said about our soldiers.  Somehow "some of your soldiers have committed atrocities" translates to "I hate all soldiers everywhere, and spit on their graves" in her mind.  I'm a goddam veteran and she still won't listen to anything I say on this count.  The facts of Abu Graib, Haditha, and the Blackwater fiasco merit a "Gee, that was bad, but not as bad as the media made it out to be."

Very. Very. Frustrating.

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