EP160: Is it SF or not

[Corydon]

For the thousandth time (and thanks for the QotW, Steve!), the "if it weren't for ____ this wouldn't be SF" complaint totally baffles me.  Are SF stories not allowed to borrow storytelling techniques or tropes or storylines or archetypes from any other literary form?  If so, our genre is dead in the water, and we'd better jump ship before it sinks.

Count me as another member of the "adaptable SF" fan club.  To me, the adaptability of the genre is a strength; and I'll take a limited perspective in a story over infodumps and interminable exposition any day.  And I enjoyed the story; a nice light piece to liven up my commute this morning.

[eytanz]

For the thousandth time (and thanks for the QotW, Steve!), the "if it weren't for ____ this wouldn't be SF" complaint totally baffles me.  Are SF stories not allowed to borrow storytelling techniques or tropes or storylines or archetypes from any other literary form?  If so, our genre is dead in the water, and we'd better jump ship before it sinks.

Count me as another member of the "adaptable SF" fan club.  To me, the adaptability of the genre is a strength; and I'll take a limited perspective in a story over infodumps and interminable exposition any day.  And I enjoyed the story; a nice light piece to liven up my commute this morning.

Well, first, let me say that I don't care about "is it SF" debates. Not that I don't have opinions about it - I do, and I sometimes post about whether I think a specific story is SF or not - I just don't think that's a particularly important fact about a story. Certainly, even if I don't classify a story in the genre, that doesn't mean I'm upset at hearing it on EP (same goes for horror/fantasy on their respective 'casts).

That says, I don't buy this "the genre is just being versatile" argument. All genres mix. It's the nature of storeis that they don't keep to one. But, in the most case, a story will leave one impression or another. Moby Dick without the whale and boats may be a story about land, but it's also not Moby Dick. This story, as I said above, is a sitcom with an SF veneer, not an SF story with a sitcom plot. You may disagree, that's fine, but I don't think my opinion is in any way invalid. Does it deserve to be on EP? Yes, by the simple criteria that Steve decided it is, which is the only criteria that counts.

But, independently of the podcast, is the story SF? In some ways yes, but not in interesting ways. This story is a fun little piece of fluff that is set in a space station. It's not an example of how SF can stretch it's limits, since there's nothing about its storytelling that's not extremely safe and formulaic. Sitcom humor can fit in anywhere - that's the special property of sitcom humor. It's not a sign of SF's growing, any more than a couple of weeks in your lawn are a sign of your garden's diversity.

[ChiliFan]

I think this story is definitely Sci Fi and is actually in a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine vein or even inspired by ST:DS9. It's a easy technique to use to write stories. You just write some fan fiction, then change all the characters' names and a couple of details about the world they live in. I'm sure Odo would've sorted out this case quite quickly, but then there wouldn't have been much of a story. I seem to remember at least one dispute over the occupancy of a shop on the Promenade on ST:DS9, but I'm not sure which episode it may have been in.

[bolddeceiver]

This story, as I said above, is a sitcom with an SF veneer, not an SF story with a sitcom plot.

For the sake of arguement, explain for me how a contemporary sitcom could tell this story without:

• An alien race incapable of lying
  Another alien race incapable of understanding spiritual metaphor
  A space station with constant government upheavals, leaving government incapable of settling property disputes

Because that's what "a sitcom with an SF veneer" would imply to me.

More to the point, "sitcom" is a form, not a genre.  Because Red Dwarf was a situation comedy, do we write it off as not being validly SFnal? 

You're welcome not to like a story for these reasons, but for me to accept that it's "not [SF] in interesting ways" is going to take more evidence than I've seen so far.

[eytanz]

This story, as I said above, is a sitcom with an SF veneer, not an SF story with a sitcom plot.

For the sake of arguement, explain for me how a contemporary sitcom could tell this story without:

• An alien race incapable of lying
  Another alien race incapable of understanding spiritual metaphor
  A space station with constant government upheavals, leaving government incapable of settling property disputes

Because that's what "a sitcom with an SF veneer" would imply to me.

Then perhaps most of out disagreement is semantic, since I did not mean you could just simply transplant it without making alterations. What I meant was that the alterations would not change the thrust of the plot. All you need is to establish that A - the stupid cousin cannot lie (establish that he blushes very strongly whenever he lies, and that the antagonists know that). B - the antagonists are really superstitious (this one seems pretty trivial to transpose - make them belong to some religious community which is known to take all mentions of ghosts literally). C - The whole story takes place in a small town with corrupt local officials (the constantly changing governments was a nice touch, but it is not needed in order to have a new official take the job that comes pre-bribed. Sitcoms are notorious for introducing new characters to fill in random roles like this, even if it makes no sense. The fact that the story justified it doesn't make the justification important).

Will it work as well? Probably not. The SF setting made all of the above seem a lot less artificial than they would if we set the story in rural Arkansas or something. But that's what I meant by veneer - using SF elements makes the story work better than it would otherwise, but it's not integral to the story in any way.

More to the point, "sitcom" is a form, not a genre. 

It can be both. And the sitcom genre is somewhat orthogonal to the sitcom form; most TV sitcoms are both, but they have different qualities. This story uses sitcom tropes and a sitcom plot, so I consider it a sitcom genre.

Because Red Dwarf was a situation comedy, do we write it off as not being validly SFnal? 

No. You are making an unwarranted generalization. I'm not in any way denying it's possible to create a sitcom/SF hybrid that is inherently SF. Red Dwarf is an excellent example. All I'm saying is that this particular story is only SF in the most superficial of senses.

You're welcome not to like a story for these reasons, but for me to accept that it's "not [SF] in interesting ways" is going to take more evidence than I've seen so far.

I do like the story.

[bolddeceiver]

I'm not in any way denying it's possible to create a sitcom/SF hybrid that is inherently SF. Red Dwarf is an excellent example. All I'm saying is that this particular story is only SF in the most superficial of senses.

But I don't understand what makes Kallakak's Cousins quantitatively different.  Most of Red Dwarf's plots could (and in some cases have) also, with modification, be told in a non-SFnal setting.

[Boggled Coriander]

Most of Red Dwarf's plots could (and in some cases have) also, with modification, be told in a non-SFnal setting.

Agreed.  Especially in the first few seasons, when the emphasis was more on the relationship between the two main characters. 

Thanks to StePH for introducing me to the term "limited third-person perspective".  I've never written anything substantial but I find this stuff fascinating.

[eytanz]

I'm not in any way denying it's possible to create a sitcom/SF hybrid that is inherently SF. Red Dwarf is an excellent example. All I'm saying is that this particular story is only SF in the most superficial of senses.

But I don't understand what makes Kallakak's Cousins quantitatively different.  Most of Red Dwarf's plots could (and in some cases have) also, with modification, be told in a non-SFnal setting.

Yes, individual stories, certainly. But there were also stories that could not. If you gave me a single Red Dwarf episode out of context I may well think the same of it as I did of this story. Taking the series as a whole, though, it's clear that there's a difference.

I'm certainly not debating that the setting in which Kallakak's Cousins was told is a SF setting. I'm just saying that as far as I can see, the setting is mostly incidental to the story. Obviously, if the setting and characters were developed further that could change, but I wasn't talking on what could be done, only on what was.

Quite simply, my reaction to the story - as soon as I heard it - was that I imagined the author coming up with a non-SF story, figuring "this is not good enough", and adding some minor tweaks to make it SF. That's probably entirely different than how the story was written, but I'm not commenting on the author's intentions/writing process, I'm commenting on my reaction. You had a different reaction, that's fine. But you (and Croydon) reacted to my comment not as if I had a different opinion about it, but as if I was making some sort of grand comment about SF. I never said anything about what SF is allowed to do. All I ever said was that this story felt to me like the SF elements didn't play an important role in it.

Anyway, I am happy to disagree on the premise of whether this story is "SF enough" or not. What I reacted to in my response to Croydon, though, is that he seems to be taking it a step further and saying "even if you think the SF elements don't play an important role in this story, that's just a sign of how versatile SF is". That, in my opinion, is a wrong view, regardless of our opinions of this particular story.

To recap: to me, this story is no more SF than any other story that just tags "but they're in space!" to the end of an otherwise non-SF script. If you disagree with that, fine. But don't try to tell me that adding some SF elements to a non-SF story is a sign of how robust the genre is or anything like that.

[birdless]

To recap: to me, this story is no more SF than any other story that just tags "but they're in space!" to the end of an otherwise non-SF script. If you disagree with that, fine. But don't try to tell me that adding some SF elements to a non-SF story is a sign of how robust the genre is or anything like that.

Eytan, can you please, please, please make more points with Homestarrunner analogies? I'll never ask anything of you again. There was suddenly something right about the universe today.

As for Steve's Larry, Daryl and Daryl reference, I may have made that connection if Desla and Slaugh had never spoken. I was more reminded of Balky... times three.

[Ocicat]

I get really, really tired of these arguments.  Not only do we have to discuss if a given EP story is "actually" SF, now we're getting discussions in Podcastle threads about if a story is "actually" fantasy. 

Let's not define things too narrowly, folks!

[DKT]

Hey, drop by Pseudopod sometime.  We get "Is this horror?" at least once a month, it seems.

I am tired of it, too.  Mostly.

[wintermute]

You know, I'm not sure this is even a real forum thread.

[stePH]

I can think of nothing to say here except ...

"I'll take 'Who Gives a Shit' for $2000, Alex."

[Boggled Coriander]

Every single time someone asks if X is SF or not, I think, "Sure, it's SF.  Why not?"  Every. Single. Time.

I must be so all-inclusive and tolerant.  I give myself a warm fuzzy feeling.

[Darwinist]

You know, I'm not sure this is even a real forum thread.

Yeah, let's also have a forum thread for "That story was a rip off of (insert author/book title/ movie title)".  I get sick of reading that complaint also.   

[stePH]

You know, I'm not sure this is even a real forum thread.

Yeah, let's also have a forum thread for "That story was a rip off of (insert author/book title/ movie title)".  I get sick of reading that complaint also.   

I propose that anybody complaining either

A) story X is not sci-fi/fantasy, or

B) story X is a blatant rip off of (insert author/book title/ movie title)

is immediately and irrevocably banned from the forums.

  Who's with me?

[birdless]

You know, I'm not sure this is even a real forum thread.

Yeah, let's also have a forum thread for "That story was a rip off of (insert author/book title/ movie title)".  I get sick of reading that complaint also.   

I propose that anybody complaining either

A) story X is not sci-fi/fantasy, or

B) story X is a blatant rip off of (insert author/book title/ movie title)

is immediately and irrevocably banned from the forums.

  Who's with me?

*grabs torch, pitchfork, duck and a handful of very small rocks and yells*Burn her! She's a witch!

[eytanz]

I'm really happy to let the discussion end - the only reason I was continuing it is because I'm really bad at letting things go, not because I was interested in it - but isn't the whole point of splitting a thread to allow the people who happen to be interested in a topic somewhere to continue it while others can happily ignore it? It seems that instead, it's just a call for people not involved in the discussion to pounce on it and try to shut other people up. That's rude and unfortunate.

[birdless]

Ouch. Duly chastised.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I'm really happy to let the discussion end - the only reason I was continuing it is because I'm really bad at letting things go, not because I was interested in it - but isn't the whole point of splitting a thread to allow the people who happen to be interested in a topic somewhere to continue it while others can happily ignore it? It seems that instead, it's just a call for people not involved in the discussion to pounce on it and try to shut other people up. That's rude and unfortunate.

I may disagree with your definition of SF, but I'll defend to the death your right to stay in the forum and expound upon it.

Besides, you obviously aren't the only one who has a hard time "letting things go".  After all, if you aren't enjoying a discussion... you can skip that thread, folks!

Unless eytanz floats, of course... if he floats, then that means he's made of wood, and you know what THAT means...   

[wintermute]

It means he weighs less than a duck?

[Russell Nash]

I'm glad you're all having fun with this. 

As far as if this is a thread or not.  A thread is what I mean when I point at it.

[cuddlebug]

I may disagree with your definition of SF, but I'll defend to the death your right to stay in the forum and expound upon it.

Besides, you obviously aren't the only one who has a hard time "letting things go".  After all, if you aren't enjoying a discussion... you can skip that thread, folks!

Unless eytanz floats, of course... if he floats, then that means he's made of wood, and you know what THAT means...   

It means he weighs less than a duck?

*chuckles*   
Thanks for that, just had a good laugh, which was very welcome on a really annoying day at work.

You have no idea how fitting this was, but in a slightly different way. I think I saw Eytan 'paddle' to work this morning, given the fact it has been raining cats and ducks around here for days.

Sorry, Eytan, but I couldn't help it. Seems like you can't get away from the ducks.
(... just to clarify, we have a huge duck population on campus, which leads to the ducks often being prioritized over the students and staff, which makes them really spoilt and cheeky and annoyingly persistent sometimes.  )

[eytanz]

(... just to clarify, we have a huge duck population on campus, which leads to the ducks often being prioritized over the students and staff, which makes them really spoilt and cheeky and annoyingly persistent sometimes.  )

It's quite clear why you think I resemble them, obviously

[cuddlebug]

(... just to clarify, we have a huge duck population on campus, which leads to the ducks often being prioritized over the students and staff, which makes them really spoilt and cheeky and annoyingly persistent sometimes.  )

It's quite clear why you think I resemble them, obviously

That and because they're, what was it again, "tasty, fluffy and cute". Your words by the way, not mine.