EP160: Is it SF or not

[eytanz]

(... just to clarify, we have a huge duck population on campus, which leads to the ducks often being prioritized over the students and staff, which makes them really spoilt and cheeky and annoyingly persistent sometimes.  )

It's quite clear why you think I resemble them, obviously

That and because they're, what was it again, "tasty, fluffy and cute". Your words by the way, not mine.

My words for why I like ducks. I never said I resemble them.

[cuddlebug]

That and because they're, what was it again, "tasty, fluffy and cute". Your words by the way, not mine.

My words for why I like ducks. I never said I resemble them.

That's because you mentioned these words before you knew what the game was about. Maybe that would be a fun thing to do in an extra thread, or maybe not. Ok, enough of personal stuff. Moving on.

[capteucalyptus]

I get really, really tired of these arguments.  Not only do we have to discuss if a given EP story is "actually" SF, now we're getting discussions in Podcastle threads about if a story is "actually" fantasy. 

Let's not define things too narrowly, folks!

Well while I agree that this story is sci-fi, you do have to be a little picky about defintions.  If for no other reason than for the benefit of authors like me who are submitting stories. ;-)

[Planish]

I get really, really tired of these arguments.  Not only do we have to discuss if a given EP story is "actually" SF, now we're getting discussions in Podcastle threads about if a story is "actually" fantasy. 

Let's not define things too narrowly, folks!

Overly-narrow definition = Bad.
But I think those threads do serve a purpose. People have come here expecting content that has to do with SF. If it strays too far from the product as advertised (so to speak) and too many people feel it does, then they'll go elsewhere.
 
There is a sort of cloud in Lit-Space (my invention) with "Unquestionably SF" at the core, and related genres here and there around the boundary regions. Those threads are merely an effort by the mob (us) to adjust the location of the boundary - "In" / "Out" / "Only sorta', but entertaining enough to be given a pass".

Oops - I messed up my metaphor. I didn't mean that marginal examples are moved in and out of the SF cloud in Lit-Space; rather that the SF boundary is moved out or in to where the examples are already.

Uh... where was I going with this?

Something about belonging to a community (no matter how artificial), and hoping that one's own opinions about that community's values are shared by others members. If people weren't concerned about whether or not...
Uh, let's try again. Later. My shift is almost over.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I get really, really tired of these arguments.  Not only do we have to discuss if a given EP story is "actually" SF, now we're getting discussions in Podcastle threads about if a story is "actually" fantasy. 

Let's not define things too narrowly, folks!

Well while I agree that this story is sci-fi, you do have to be a little picky about defintions.  If for no other reason than for the benefit of authors like me who are submitting stories. ;-)

Okay, there is THAT... but I like to think that all of the editors have enough leeway to say, "Yeah, let's try this" for stories that blur the boundaries.  And I imagine there have been a few tales that have been either referred or passed from one Pod to another.  (I seem to remember an intro mentioning that, but listening to the back catalog AND all three current feeds makes my remembry unrelibel.)

[wakela]

I think the reason this topic keeps coming up is that those of us who feel that it's valid to criticize the level of SFness in a story on an SF podcast don't feel we making ourselves clear.   To be honest I'm a little offended that when anyone criticizes a story in this way the response is "I'm sick of this.  Go away."  Are there any other aspects of a story that are off limits? 

I read science fiction because for the most part because I want to see things I've never seen before.  I want a sense of wonder that I don't get from mainstream fiction.  If a story fails to give me a sense of wonder, I'm not going to say that it fails at science fiction (though I used to) but I will say that it fails to meet my expectations as an SF story.

This story to me is a meal of spaghetti with a jar of store-bought sauce.  Is it good?  I guess.  Is it Italian?  I suppose.  But I would rather have something unique made from scratch. 

[Russell Nash]

I think the reason this topic keeps coming up is that those of us who feel that it's valid to criticize the level of SFness in a story on an SF podcast don't feel we making ourselves clear.   To be honest I'm a little offended that when anyone criticizes a story in this way the response is "I'm sick of this.  Go away."  Are there any other aspects of a story that are off limits? 

I read science fiction because for the most part because I want to see things I've never seen before.  I want a sense of wonder that I don't get from mainstream fiction.  If a story fails to give me a sense of wonder, I'm not going to say that it fails at science fiction (though I used to) but I will say that it fails to meet my expectations as an SF story.

This story to me is a meal of spaghetti with a jar of store-bought sauce.  Is it good?  I guess.  Is it Italian?  I suppose.  But I would rather have something unique made from scratch. 

The problem is that we get arguments that chase away people who want to comment on the plot and characters.  One of the people saying this story wasn't SF finally admitted that he wants stories that stretch the boundaries of SF and if they don't he says it's not SF at all.  Not every story can enhance all of SF.

Saying the story was too SF-lite for you is a legitimate comment.  But when we have an argument over if a story with aliens taking place on a space station is SF or not, I'm splitting it off.  It's a stupid argument.  Feel free to have it, but I'm not allowing the episode thread to be clogged up with it.

Steve is trying to get us good SF stories.  The important word here is good.  He gets Hard-SF, but not good Hard-SF.  The story needs to come first.  If you want harder SF, help out.  Send emails to authors you like and tell them about this wonderful little podcast.  Tell them about the exposure to new readers.  Tell them that Mike Resnick got a movie deal from EP. 

Let me step down from my soap box now.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

Steve is trying to get us good SF stories.  The important word here is good.  He gets Hard-SF, but not good Hard-SF.  The story needs to come first.  If you want harder SF, help out.  Send emails to authors you like and tell them about this wonderful little podcast.  Tell them about the exposure to new readers.  Tell them that Mike Resnick got a movie deal from EP. 

Uh...wha?  Is that last remark true, or is that an example of "slight amplification of facts designed to persuade fate to bring about a particular reality"?  (AKA, big fat lie.)

[Russell Nash]

Steve is trying to get us good SF stories.  The important word here is good.  He gets Hard-SF, but not good Hard-SF.  The story needs to come first.  If you want harder SF, help out.  Send emails to authors you like and tell them about this wonderful little podcast.  Tell them about the exposure to new readers.  Tell them that Mike Resnick got a movie deal from EP. 

Uh...wha?  Is that last remark true, or is that an example of "slight amplification of facts designed to persuade fate to bring about a particular reality"?  (AKA, big fat lie.)

Steve said (I think in the metacast #3) that Mike Resnick became a big supported of EP after he optioned his script to someone that heard about it because of EP.  I don't know if it was a friend of a friend of a friend thing or if the person who optioned it is an EP listener, but Resnick is thrilled.  You can try PMing him and asking him to come here and give the details.  He does like to show up in the forums once in a while.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

Steve is trying to get us good SF stories.  The important word here is good.  He gets Hard-SF, but not good Hard-SF.  The story needs to come first.  If you want harder SF, help out.  Send emails to authors you like and tell them about this wonderful little podcast.  Tell them about the exposure to new readers.  Tell them that Mike Resnick got a movie deal from EP. 

Uh...wha?  Is that last remark true, or is that an example of "slight amplification of facts designed to persuade fate to bring about a particular reality"?  (AKA, big fat lie.)

Steve said (I think in the metacast #3) that Mike Resnick became a big supported of EP after he optioned his script to someone that heard about it because of EP.  I don't know if it was a friend of a friend of a friend thing or if the person who optioned it is an EP listener, but Resnick is thrilled.  You can try PMing him and asking him to come here and give the details.  He does like to show up in the forums once in a while.

Oh, yeah... now that you say that, I do think I remember hearing it.

I should have known better than to question a deity.   

[Russell Nash]

Steve is trying to get us good SF stories.  The important word here is good.  He gets Hard-SF, but not good Hard-SF.  The story needs to come first.  If you want harder SF, help out.  Send emails to authors you like and tell them about this wonderful little podcast.  Tell them about the exposure to new readers.  Tell them that Mike Resnick got a movie deal from EP. 

Uh...wha?  Is that last remark true, or is that an example of "slight amplification of facts designed to persuade fate to bring about a particular reality"?  (AKA, big fat lie.)

Steve said (I think in the metacast #3) that Mike Resnick became a big supported of EP after he optioned his script to someone that heard about it because of EP.  I don't know if it was a friend of a friend of a friend thing or if the person who optioned it is an EP listener, but Resnick is thrilled.  You can try PMing him and asking him to come here and give the details.  He does like to show up in the forums once in a while.

Oh, yeah... now that you say that, I do think I remember hearing it.

I should have known better than to question a deity.   

Others have made that mistake.  They are no longer with us.

[Simon]

I think the reason this topic keeps coming up is that those of us who feel that it's valid to criticize the level of SFness in a story on an SF podcast don't feel we making ourselves clear.   To be honest I'm a little offended that when anyone criticizes a story in this way the response is "I'm sick of this.  Go away."  Are there any other aspects of a story that are off limits? 

I read science fiction because for the most part because I want to see things I've never seen before.  I want a sense of wonder that I don't get from mainstream fiction.  If a story fails to give me a sense of wonder, I'm not going to say that it fails at science fiction (though I used to) but I will say that it fails to meet my expectations as an SF story.

This story to me is a meal of spaghetti with a jar of store-bought sauce.  Is it good?  I guess.  Is it Italian?  I suppose.  But I would rather have something unique made from scratch. 

The problem is that we get arguments that chase away people who want to comment on the plot and characters.  One of the people saying this story wasn't SF finally admitted that he wants stories that stretch the boundaries of SF and if they don't he says it's not SF at all.  Not every story can enhance all of SF.

Saying the story was too SF-lite for you is a legitimate comment.  But when we have an argument over if a story with aliens taking place on a space station is SF or not, I'm splitting it off.  It's a stupid argument.  Feel free to have it, but I'm not allowing the episode thread to be clogged up with it.

Steve is trying to get us good SF stories.  The important word here is good.  He gets Hard-SF, but not good Hard-SF.  The story needs to come first.  If you want harder SF, help out.  Send emails to authors you like and tell them about this wonderful little podcast.  Tell them about the exposure to new readers.  Tell them that Mike Resnick got a movie deal from EP. 

Let me step down from my soap box now.

Ok, I'll take that soapbox from you...

I used to be a figure in these battles, and even with me standing down they seem to continue.  I stood down from these forums for about 4 months after the one that turned nasty.  There are several fellow forumers whose inputs I valued who have left directly after the "Is It SF" discussions.

I like the EP forums, you'll keep seeing me around in these parts, and I value what everyone says on this.  This issue is however highly charged in these parts.  I think we'd do better de-charging it than seeing it come up in the form it has again and again and again.  Slapping it down as happens here is not conducive to the forums community.

[eytanz]

There are two problems here, both intertwined as far as I can see:

- First, new members to the community don't share the history some of us do. People keep bringing up the "is it SF/horror/fantasy" argument because, frankly, it's a very natural one. They sign up to an SF/horror/fantasy podcast, and after a few weeks get a story they don't feel fits. They then have the natural urge to point that out. I don't think they should be shut up just because the old-timers among us have done a bad job of discussing this topic long before they joined the forum.

- Second, the "is it SF" question has multiple aspects, not all of which are equal. The "how should I label this story?" aspect, and the "whether this story belongs in the podcast" aspect are the ones most people think of, and neither is an interesting question. The first is boring because labelling the stories is just a subjective task that is entirely up to each listener and doesn't leave any room for discussion. The second is irrelevant because Steve already said that the criteria for whether stories belong is whether *he* thinks they belong, and that's that - and I agree that that's the best way to run the podcast, for quite a few reasons. But there are other, more interesting questions. For example, "is the story succesful as SF", or "what does the story tell us about SF". In my posts that got split off into this thread, I was trying to address those questions - specifically, saying "no" and "nothing", contrary to what other people were saying. I found this an interesting discussion when it started, and I learnt something from it. I hope other people did too. Then I let my side of it run a bit too long, as I am wont to do, but that has nothing to do with the topic.

As I said above, seperating the topics out of main threads - though not necessarily the choice I would make were I moderator - seems entirely fair. Some people don't want to see these discussions, and it's a valid choice to allow them that. But once a discussion is seperated, and assuming it remains civil and within acceptable boundaries, it should be allowed to continue in peace.

[Russell Nash]

The absense or presense of the word successful would change whether or not a post got split off. 

"I think this story didn't really work as SF, because the elements weren't…"  is a thought-provoking and legitimate comment.

"This isn't SF." isn't.

There's a line between interesting commentary and whining.  If you're whining because you want something more like 2001, star wars, trek, or whatever on the podcast, it only makes the threads annoying to read and cuts down on other kinds of posts. 

Some of the people here have started using "isn't SF" as the default comment for when they don't like a story.  This is another thing that determines how much of it we're willing to allow.  When the same thing is said about six stories in a row, patience is very short.  If it only came up once every four to eight episodes, I'd even let the argument go for quite a while before splitting it.

All I really care about are the threads.  If a story thread is going great, you won't even see me in there.  No comment on the story.  Doesn't matter what I thought about it.  The other end, of course, is when things are harmful and need to be split. 

[eytanz]

The absense or presense of the word successful would change whether or not a post got split off. 

Though note that you split my EP160 posts off, where I never said that the story was not SF, but was rather saying that the SF elements were superficial and didn't contribute much.

Not that I'm complaining about your decision, mind you - I was fine with my posts being split off - I'm just saying that the criteria you applied are different than what you are saying now.

I'm willing to plead guilty to the charges of being boring, or over-verbose, or beating a dead horse. I'm not willing to accept my posts being called whining, because they were not and are not.

[Russell Nash]

The absense or presense of the word successful would change whether or not a post got split off. 

Though note that you split my EP160 posts off, where I never said that the story was not SF, but was rather saying that the SF elements were superficial and didn't contribute much.

Not that I'm complaining about your decision, mind you - I was fine with my posts being split off - I'm just saying that the criteria you applied are different than what you are saying now.

I'm willing to plead guilty to the charges of being boring, or over-verbose, or beating a dead horse. I'm not willing to accept my posts being called whining, because they were not and are not.

The whining comment was a general comment.  It was not aimed at you.  If one of the perpetrators of this comes in here and tries to play innocent, I'll gladly point fingers

This is a classic sitcom, set in a space station, but that was just a thin veneer of SF paint over a well-worn plot.

This comment was left and it's yours

Without the SF this is just some put-upon guy at a mall trying to keep his dollar store.

This comment was left.

It wasn't anyone comment that got this split off.  It was when the thread became only about this argument.  It was a big picture type of decision.  Once it was into that argument, it was a yes it is, no it isn't fight.  The fight isn't the problem.  It was the disturbance it caused.

Maybe I haven't been consistent with the details of why I split this one off and there's a simple reason for that.  I did it almost four weeks ago and I do have a life.  I am not going to go back and revisit every decision.  Unforunately I ended up doing that a bit for this one.