EP163: Revolution Time

[Rain]

I agree with everyone else and give this story a big Meh

[wherethewild]

I'm now about 4 months behind in my EscapePod listening and I REALLY wish I hadn't jumped back into it with this one. I don't have the excitement for the others now and that's a shame.

Is that really the best of what is being submitted? Did we use up a decade's worth of quality short scifi already and good new stuff just isn't being produced fast enough?

[Ocicat]

Is that really the best of what is being submitted? Did we use up a decade's worth of quality short scifi already and good new stuff just isn't being produced fast enough?

I do wonder - especially since in the two intros before this, Steve said that they were stories he had just heard at a convention the week before.  Doesn't make it sound like there are stories in the backlog that he's burning to run...

[contra]

I would pretty much mirror everyone else here.

I didn't dislike it... but it didn't really make an impact

Interesting idea, interesting world to play about it, but in hte end something just did not work.  I liked the writing itself... I liked how it jumped about.

However the time travel conclusion was a little strange.  I almost would have prefered Marx knowing why it failed, trying to stop it happening like that, and causing that to happen like that anyway.

Marx didn't impact the story at all.  He could have been replaced with anyone from history as other people say.  For the left or right.  It doesn't matter. It didn't matter to the story.

I think if Marx had actually been a human being in the story it could have helped.  Marx knew all those million of people would die... and because he knew how it would turn out, let them die? 
If we could go back and stop the black death, wouldn't you at least try.  If you knew what you were the one that started it, wouldn't you go back and stop yourself doing it.

Ok.  Maybe I don't know enough about Marx to know if he would care about millions of people.  Someone like Jefferson though would have worked and I wouldn't have questioned it as much... he was for a good revolution to keep the government fresh.  I don't know.  The lack of Marx having am impact other than figurehead destroyed my suspension of disbelief that Marx was brought forward in time... and I couldn't get back into the story...

[Void Munashii]

I think if Marx had actually been a human being in the story it could have helped.  Marx knew all those million of people would die... and because he knew how it would turn out, let them die? 

  Maybe he knew they had to die for the next revolution to work? Maybe support for the successful revolution was based largely on the massacres that occured in the failed one.

[Windup]

I don't know why it took me this long to come up with it, but why would a government with a time machine need to make any military response to an attempted revolution at all?  You ID one or more leaders, send agents back in time, join their cells, and disrupt their plans as soon as they amount to anything. 

The story really should have ended with the members of the time machine penetration cell being killed by one of their own members as soon as they entered the control room. 

<<scene: Chrono control room - dead bodies on floor - Morgan sits on a table, smoking - Man in Suit enters>>

"Nice job. What were they after?"

"Not what, who."

"Who?"

"Karl Marx, if you can believe it."

"Marx?!?  Good God, we must be getting weak, if that old fraud was a threat."

<<Morgan shoots the Man in Suit, killing him instantly.>>

"Weak, and sloppy.  Meanwhile, me and 6,000 doses of antibiotics are due for a relaxing and profitable little break in pre-industrial Europe..."

[eytanz]

I don't know why it took me this long to come up with it, but why would a government with a time machine need to make any military response to an attempted revolution at all?  You ID one or more leaders, send agents back in time, join their cells, and disrupt their plans as soon as they amount to anything. 

Actually, that seems to be one of the few plot issues that is sort of semi-addressed; the time machine doesn't seem capable of sending people to the past, only extracting them.

That said, a slight change to the plan makes all the difference - ID one of the leaders, say Morgan, and extract her as a child. Re-indoctrinate her so that she's a double-agent, wait for her to boomerang back to the past, and then have her betray her cell at the right moment. If it doesn't work, just repeat with a different cell member.

[davekel]

well it filled in the 30 minute drive to work.....

[lieffeil]

I don't know why it took me this long to come up with it, but why would a government with a time machine need to make any military response to an attempted revolution at all?  You ID one or more leaders, send agents back in time, join their cells, and disrupt their plans as soon as they amount to anything. 

...And then you get Arnold Schwarzenegger to play a cyborg...

[deflective]

this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including split threads). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.

[Roney]

This story was totally implausible.  Give a real far-left group access to a time machine and three things would happen within half an hour:

• one group of would-be socio-economist intellectuals would be insisting on bringing forward Marx to update his theories to explain why capitalism hadn't yet collapsed upon itself, but why it surely soon would -- after all, the only way to bring about a functioning socialist state is to win the arguments and bring all the people around
• another group of seize-the-day revolutionary types would be insisting on bringing forward Lenin to lead the comrades in action against the capitalist-imperialist oppressors, and saying some very rude things about the faithless cowardice of the first group
• a group of Trots would have thrown their toys out of the pram and left within the first five minutes when the others didn't recognize the overwhelming importance of retrieving Trotsky

Seriously, though, I rather liked elements of it.  CammoBlammo said several things I agree with, including:

The real kick for me was at the end when the cell all went on to different lives. Some died, some continued the revolution, and some got on with life while staying true to their cause.

The way that this note rang true for me actually made up for a lot of the other implausibility.  In real life the realization that your youthful ideals can't be brought about just by wanting it hard enough tends to creep up gradually: the story used the techniques of SF to force it on the group in a rush (through the words of their idol who knew what the future held).  Good, dramatic, short story stuff, with very human results.

Personally, if I had a guarantee that the revolution would succeed in 800 years I wouldn't bother fighting. I wouldn't even bother when the time came. Why risk everything for a cause that cannot lose?

That's one fascinating question.  The other is, what good is a revolution in 800 years for the next 30 generations of oppressed workers?  Is it morally right to give up the struggle just because you know you can't win yet?  As for Marx, is he really content to let the seeds of the destruction of capitalism take so long to grow?

Just on that, somebody complained that there was no indication about what the cell were fighting against. There was one clue --- it was a government that was prepared to nuke their own nation in order to win. If my nation were to consider that a real option, I'd probably think about a revolution too.

I thought there were several hints that the government they were fighting was more oppressive than the US today.  One was the very existence of active revolutionary communist cells in the country, and not just a few: enough to mount a serious revolution.  That's a fictional setting, not careless implausibility.  I'd have liked to know more, though.

There did seem to be a lot of partially developed ideas -- the characters, particularly; the government; the history of socialist movements in this world; the presence of Marx; the politics of the time machine -- and I could imagine it being much more effective if some of these were fleshed out.  It struck me as a story released a draft or two too early.

But it was very far from being the worst Escape Pod.

[ajames]

this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including split threads). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.

What's even more interesting, at least to me, is that although a few people expressed very negative reactions and there certainly was a negative tone to most reviews, by far the most common review was "meh".

So for a group of people who don't think this story has much going for it one way or another, we sure have a lot to say about it.

But it was very far from being the worst Escape Pod.

Depends on how you define "worst". For me this story was like eating air, and every other story on Escapepod has at least given me something to chew on, even if I didn't particularly like it.

[Russell Nash]

this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including split threads). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.

Deflective,

I don't get your math.  Just by sorting the episode threads by replies I get 11 stories with more responses not including split threads.

Just making a guess about split threads I'd say there are another 7 with more replies.

[eytanz]

this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including split threads). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.

What's even more interesting, at least to me, is that although a few people expressed very negative reactions and there certainly was a negative tone to most reviews, by far the most common review was "meh".

So for a group of people who don't think this story has much going for it one way or another, we sure have a lot to say about it.

Hey, just because a story failed, doesn't mean it didn't fail in an interesting way.

I think this is a mediocre story, but an interesting object lesson of quite a few traps one can fall into while writing about politics. In this case, the trap being that of writing a story about ideologists without including their actual ideology, either because (as I assume is the case here) the ideology is really obvious to the author and he's actually writing directly to the crowd that share his assumptions rather to a more general audience, or perhaps because the author never had any ideology and was just using politics as a narrative device.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

When I listen to these stories, I don't think "good" or "bad".  Instead, I think, "I could top that."  (Or not.)

I think I could top this one.  (But that's already been done twice... once in thread, and once with a link.)

So, while I can't muster the enthusiasm he had for it, I will echo the positive points that CammoBlammo mentioned, and offer the author an apology for not being blown away by his ideas.

As most of you might already know, I think we are already in the midst of an extremely interesting and non-violent revolution.  And it doesn't NEED a figurehead... unless you count Steve.    So from my point of view, the story's greatest weakness is assuming that any cause needs a bunch of idiots with weapons to run around and fight for it.  In reality, they'd be on Facebook or MySpace recruiting like-minded followers and raising money and awareness through their websites, email, and podcasts.

What's important: is everyone getting food/water/shelter?  No... why not?  Will fighting get it for them?  No... so what would Marx accomplish?  Fuck him... give me the web.

And THAT is why I give this story a "meh"... because I think the world is finally outgrowing silly revolutionaries.

(I just hope that big crazy beards never go out of fashion.)

[stePH]

When I listen to these stories, I don't think "good" or "bad".  Instead, I think, "I could top that."  (Or not.)

I think I could top this one.  (But that's already been done twice... once in thread, and once with a link.)

So, while I can't muster the enthusiasm he had for it, I will echo the positive points that CammoBlammo mentioned, and offer the author an apology for not being blown away by his ideas.

As most of you might already know, I think we are already in the midst of an extremely interesting and non-violent revolution. 

One thing that I believe has been mentioned before:

Exhibit A: Escape Pod, a science fiction short story podcast edited by Steve Eley, who started out with a simple idea: offer writers $100 dollars for stories, which he would read and post as a weekly mp3 on his podcast feed. The audience was asked for whatever donations they felt appropriate, which Steve uses to pay the authors. After only two years, as he explained in his third Escape Pod Metacast, Escape Pod is the 2 market for short science fiction stories.

$100 is the current going rate for a story, but it was originally much lower.  Only the generosity of donators to the show allowed Steve to gradually raise the amount he pays authors.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

One thing that I believe has been mentioned before:

Exhibit A: Escape Pod, a science fiction short story podcast edited by Steve Eley, who started out with a simple idea: offer writers $100 dollars for stories, which he would read and post as a weekly mp3 on his podcast feed. The audience was asked for whatever donations they felt appropriate, which Steve uses to pay the authors. After only two years, as he explained in his third Escape Pod Metacast, Escape Pod is the 2 market for short science fiction stories.

$100 is the current going rate for a story, but it was originally much lower.  Only the generosity of donators to the show allowed Steve to gradually raise the amount he pays authors.

While I normally hate being caught in a factual error, that actually proves the point even more (the point that this is a viable business model, I mean).  And while I think of this as Steve's dream/triumph, it's a testament to all of us in the Escape Artists community that it is succeeding so, um, successfully.

Just so I can fix my blog, does anyone here recall the original EP story rate?

[Russell Nash]

One thing that I believe has been mentioned before:

Exhibit A: Escape Pod, a science fiction short story podcast edited by Steve Eley, who started out with a simple idea: offer writers $100 dollars for stories, which he would read and post as a weekly mp3 on his podcast feed. The audience was asked for whatever donations they felt appropriate, which Steve uses to pay the authors. After only two years, as he explained in his third Escape Pod Metacast, Escape Pod is the 2 market for short science fiction stories.

$100 is the current going rate for a story, but it was originally much lower.  Only the generosity of donators to the show allowed Steve to gradually raise the amount he pays authors.

While I normally hate being caught in a factual error, that actually proves the point even more (the point that this is a viable business model, I mean).  And while I think of this as Steve's dream/triumph, it's a testament to all of us in the Escape Artists community that it is succeeding so, um, successfully.

Just so I can fix my blog, does anyone here recall the original EP story rate?

When I started listening it was at $50 and Steve said that was an increase.  Maybe $25 was the original.

[scottjanssens]

$20 was the original payment for a story.

[deflective]

this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including split threads). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.

I don't get your math.  Just by sorting the episode threads by replies I get 11 stories with more responses not including split threads.

Just making a guess about split threads I'd say there are another 7 with more replies.

i'm not sure what you're looking for here Russell.

i specifically said this included split threads, you replied by saying: if you don't include split threads you're wrong. the split threads are linked from my original post, in the time that it took you to post your comment you could have checked the post counts and had your answer. instead you just assumed that i was wrong.

*shrug* what do you want me to say?

[Russell Nash]

this episode has spawned more discussion in five days than any other escape pod has total (including split threads). it's also the worst reviewed story.

human nature is a funny thing.

I don't get your math.  Just by sorting the episode threads by replies I get 11 stories with more responses not including split threads.

Just making a guess about split threads I'd say there are another 7 with more replies.

i'm not sure what you're looking for here Russell.

i specifically said this included split threads, you replied by saying: if you don't include split threads you're wrong. the split threads are linked from my original post, in the time that it took you to post your comment you could have checked the post counts and had your answer. instead you just assumed that i was wrong.

*shrug* what do you want me to say?

My point was that unless you set up a spreadsheet and added every split thread, you don't know.  There are many threads split from Eps that aren't credited back including some of the largest and ugliest threads in the history of these forums.  Every religious/economical/sexist/creationist thread was spawned by an episode thread. 

If you go only by the episode thread, my math holds.  If you try to add in every other thread, my math holds more.  Many of the spawned threads are longer than this entire thread and its daughter threads.

My original post was written in haste, but it holds.  It is, however, impressive how much discussion has been spawned by a story that almost nobody liked.  WHich I think was your original point. 

[deflective]

If you go only by the episode thread, my math holds.  If you try to add in every other thread, my math holds more.

since the math you put forward is 'i think i'm right,' i wont argue.

It is, however, impressive how much discussion has been spawned by a story that almost nobody liked.  Which I think was your original point. 

aye, the funny nature of humans.

another aspect of that nature is an instinctive need to dispute absolute statements. after my original post i half expected people would start suggesting that other episodes are worse (since it's easy to mix up an assertion that something is worst reviewed with the assertion that it is the worst) but you took me by surprise by splitting hairs on the possibility that it spawned the most discussion.

i fully admit that i may be wrong, i didn't exhaust every case, but contradicting a non-essential position with nothing more than a feeling is human nature at its bloody minded best.

a nature that i now continue in grand tradition with an unnecessary escalation.

[Chodon]

I love it when people argue over facts...that's why the Guinness book of world records was invented.  Maybe we need an "Escape Artists Forums Book Of World Records".   

[Russell Nash]

If you go only by the episode thread, my math holds.  If you try to add in every other thread, my math holds more.

since the math you put forward is 'i think i'm right,' i wont argue.

It is, however, impressive how much discussion has been spawned by a story that almost nobody liked.  Which I think was your original point. 

aye, the funny nature of humans.

another aspect of that nature is an instinctive need to dispute absolute statements. after my original post i half expected people would start suggesting that other episodes are worse (since it's easy to mix up an assertion that something is worst reviewed with the assertion that it is the worst) but you took me by surprise by splitting hairs on the possibility that it spawned the most discussion.

i fully admit that i may be wrong, i didn't exhaust every case, but contradicting a non-essential position with nothing more than a feeling is human nature at its bloody minded best.

a nature that i now continue in grand tradition with an unnecessary escalation.

I don't argue over the quality of the stories, but I'll cause trouble about numbers all day long.  When I read your original statement, the horrible, long arguments we had last year came to mind.  They were 7 and 8 pages long with people trading 1000-3000 word attacks.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

$20 was the original payment for a story.

Thanks, fellas!  Duly updated.