Author Topic: EP164: The Right Kind of Town  (Read 37929 times)

errant371

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Reply #50 on: July 03, 2008, 07:11:52 PM
Before we get into an is or isn't SF battle, I'd like to step in and say a word.  This type of thing can get into a nasty argument and it really is a judgement call.  I'd like to change the vocabulary a little if I may.  A few stories back someone used the phrase "a thin veneer of SF".  I thought this was brilliant.  It grudgingly said, "OK, it may be officially SF, but Not enough for me." 

She's an Alien (Half-breed? I don't remember exactly) and talks about going to other planets and orbiting ships.  That qualifies it as "officially" SF.  The questions really are: "Is this your SF?", "Were the elements used well?", "Was the world interesting?"

errant371 would have answered something like: no. no. a little to begin with, but the author didn't keep it going. 

The is or isn't it battles get very boring and I tend to split them off.  This doesn't make anyone happy.  But feel free to call the elements weak and poorly used til the cows come home. 

Thank you and play ball.

A good point.  The definition I used above is not one that everyone will agree with (and sometimes I don't myself, but that is a different story).  I used it as a way of pointing out that there was no science fiction element in this story that couldn't be replace with some other genre trope.  Sticking within the western motif, you could replace the spaceships with stagecoaches, the planets with Tombstone equivilents, the aliens with gunslingers etc.  You could do the same with a fantasy motif just as easily.  This author went with S/F.  Does this make it an S/F story?  Well, that is debatible, and as Russel Nash points out, perhaps a fruitless debate.  Did the author use these conventions well?  In my opinion, no.  That makes it a bad S/F story.  Your milage may vary.  In the end it doesn't matter if the story has a S/F, Horror or Fantasy gloss if the story is well plotted, well written and has interesting characters.  Did the author use these conventions well?  Sort of.  That makes it an okay story regardless of genre.

I read a lot of Science Fiction.  This one really didn't do much for me.  There was nothing really interesting or new here.  I am not calling down the author's skill, by any means.  His nuts and bolts writing is much better than some I have read.

What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' didn't you understand?


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Reply #51 on: July 03, 2008, 08:20:39 PM
Back in the ep113 thread we had one guy (the only guy to ever get banned from these forums for something other than spamming) who was saying similiar things.  I said any SF story could be turned into a non-SF story.  I then turned Star Wars into the Alamo. 

When I challenged him to come up with a story that couldn't be changed, he came up with Soylent Green.  I turned it into a story about cannibalism on the Oregon Trail.  I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.  That sounds madder than I meant it.  It's supposed to be a fun challenge.   8)



errant371

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Reply #52 on: July 03, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
Back in the ep113 thread we had one guy (the only guy to ever get banned from these forums for something other than spamming) who was saying similiar things.  I said any SF story could be turned into a non-SF story.  I then turned Star Wars into the Alamo. 

When I challenged him to come up with a story that couldn't be changed, he came up with Soylent Green.  I turned it into a story about cannibalism on the Oregon Trail.  I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.  That sounds madder than I meant it.  It's supposed to be a fun challenge.   8)

Is all good. ;D  I will have to think about such a challenge.  The only thing that springs to mind at the moment would be "The Cold Equations" or perhaps "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" and possibly that one story by C.L. Moore where a singer's mind is deposited into a mechanical body (sounds pretty standard plot until you read it) whose name escapes me.

If you are up to it, we could start a thread to duel on this issue, but I can't guarantee that I have the time to give it my full participation!  I am almost done work for the day and may not be back on this forum until tomorrow.

/Also, I seem to be having trouble getting hyperlinks to work in posts (no biggie, but I like to link things like story names etc for those who might not recognize them).

What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' didn't you understand?


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Reply #53 on: July 03, 2008, 09:05:01 PM
Back in the ep113 thread we had one guy (the only guy to ever get banned from these forums for something other than spamming) who was saying similiar things.  I said any SF story could be turned into a non-SF story.  I then turned Star Wars into the Alamo. 

When I challenged him to come up with a story that couldn't be changed, he came up with Soylent Green.  I turned it into a story about cannibalism on the Oregon Trail.  I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.  That sounds madder than I meant it.  It's supposed to be a fun challenge.   8)

Is all good. ;D  I will have to think about such a challenge.  The only thing that springs to mind at the moment would be "The Cold Equations" or perhaps "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" and possibly that one story by C.L. Moore where a singer's mind is deposited into a mechanical body (sounds pretty standard plot until you read it) whose name escapes me.

If you are up to it, we could start a thread to duel on this issue, but I can't guarantee that I have the time to give it my full participation!  I am almost done work for the day and may not be back on this forum until tomorrow.

/Also, I seem to be having trouble getting hyperlinks to work in posts (no biggie, but I like to link things like story names etc for those who might not recognize them).

Keep in mind, we all have the Russell Nash vs. Everyone thread. And Russell really doesn't like losing...


Biscuit

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Reply #54 on: July 03, 2008, 10:23:52 PM
Yes, we have aspects of "westernism"/"frontierism" (heh, are they words?) - I'd imagine any society with a farming culture has them. I've just never personally identified with them - as my husband gently teases me all the time, I'm a real townie.

Also, having a feminist leaning, I find it hard to identify with westernism because of it's dominant male focus.

Yes, I agree the possibilities of the "wild frontier" hold great prospects, but one would think if we're reaching out to the stars we have the finances, maturity and intellect to be doing so. If we're going to regress to our hind brain within a generation of colonizing, then we're not evolved enough to handle the jandal in space.

Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 10:26:00 PM by Biscuit »



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Reply #55 on: July 03, 2008, 11:48:53 PM

Yes, I agree the possibilities of the "wild frontier" hold great prospects, but one would think if we're reaching out to the stars we have the finances, maturity and intellect to be doing so. If we're going to regress to our hind brain within a generation of colonizing, then we're not evolved enough to handle the jandal in space.

Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)

I don't think that's entirely fair to the colonists.  Sure, you literally have to be a rocket scientist to get into space ... for now ... but we're close to commercializing space travel, and once that starts, it will be a matter of migratorial economics.  Most of these stories (Firefly being among the better examples) focus on people who choose to be on the fringes of a high-tech society.  Choosing to live on the fringes of society is NOT a good indicator of low intelligence.  Sometimes, depending on the society, it's an indicator of exceptional intelligence.

Of course, that's just *my* browncoat sensibility showing, now, I think.  ;)



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Biscuit

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Reply #56 on: July 04, 2008, 12:16:39 AM
There's a difference between living on the fringes (power within oneself/independence) and lawlessness (power over others).

If you're a rebel with a cause, cool - forge ahead into space. If you're there just to shoot 'em up and have your way with the lasses, stay right out of my colony ship plzktnx.

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« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 12:18:31 AM by Biscuit »



wakela

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Reply #57 on: July 04, 2008, 12:27:53 AM
I'm surprised at the positive feedback.  I thought this was one of the dullest EP stories I've heard.  The conflict is established more than half way through the story and then is resolved by saying, "oh and by the way I have superpowers."  The veneer of science fiction was thin to the point of literal non-existence for 90% of the story.    There was an awful lot of exposition, and it described nothing novel.

There was some potential with exploring the Nightwalker's code.  What would have happened if the code demanded that someone be protected who did not deserve it?  What happens when it conflicts with human law?  The western and science fiction genres have the ideal tools for exploring issues like this.  

Also the idea that the hookers were non-human could have been interesting.  What happens when a non-human is mistreated?  Do the plants really have feelings?  Do they have intelligence without having feelings?

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Reply #58 on: July 04, 2008, 02:03:07 AM
There's a difference between living on the fringes (power within oneself/independence) and lawlessness (power over others).

If you're a rebel with a cause, cool - forge ahead into space. If you're there just to shoot 'em up and have your way with the lasses, stay right out of my colony ship plzktnx.

Follow a leader out of respect, not fear.

The thing about the fringes is, there ain't no leaders.

The Western genre has severely overblown the actual state of affairs in the westward expansion of the U.S. when it comes to all the shoot-outs and outlaws.  Most of the reality was that people saw the wide-open spaces as a chance to get away from others and make their own way.  Translate that to a Sci-fi setting, where it is feasible to transport people to many different, life-supporting planets, and I don't doubt you'll get the same kind of progression.  Surly individualists, religious idealists, expansionist exploitationists - your "rebels" with their sundry causes - will lead the way, and the various predators, parasites, and politicians will surely follow.

To drag this back on topic, we were told in one of the infodumps that the planet had a lot of populated areas.  I had the impression that some were "nicer", and some were seedier.  If you allow enough time for human expansion, and throw in aliens and lord-knows-what-all technology, you're bound to have areas that are lawless.  When humans are around long enough, they spring up on their own; they wouldn't necessarily have to be on your colony ship.

(And, Biscuit, I didn't mean to drag you personally into an argument; I only meant to engage a non-U.S. P.O.V.  I'm really a townie myself, so I would probably not find myself in a town like the one our protagonist seemed to enjoy so much.)

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Reply #59 on: July 04, 2008, 05:36:24 PM
I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.  That sounds madder than I meant it.  It's supposed to be a fun challenge.   8)

Is all good. ;D  I will have to think about such a challenge.  The only thing that springs to mind at the moment would be "The Cold Equations" or perhaps "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" and possibly that one story by C.L. Moore where a singer's mind is deposited into a mechanical body (sounds pretty standard plot until you read it) whose name escapes me.

If you are up to it, we could start a thread to duel on this issue, but I can't guarantee that I have the time to give it my full participation!  I am almost done work for the day and may not be back on this forum until tomorrow.

/Also, I seem to be having trouble getting hyperlinks to work in posts (no biggie, but I like to link things like story names etc for those who might not recognize them).

As far as the code goes, put something up one of the moderators will fix it, especially if you say you know it isn't right.  Then you can come back click "modify" and look at what we did.  SMF uses BBCode.  It's a little obscure nowadays, so not everyone knows how it works.

As far as the challenge goes, try to stay with movies if you can.  There's a better chance more people will know it and can judge how I did.

Keep in mind, we all have the Russell Nash vs. Everyone thread. And Russell really doesn't like losing...

You just keep bringing that thing up.  Wherethewild beat me.  She kicked me out.  The funny thing is I keep hanging out with her.  I guess I just have a thing for strong, smart women. 

Always aim high guys!




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Reply #60 on: July 04, 2008, 05:38:03 PM
The veneer of science fiction was thin to the point of literal non-existence for 90% of the story.

I guess I asked for this, but doen't it read really well?



errant371

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Reply #61 on: July 04, 2008, 05:48:00 PM
/Also, I seem to be having trouble getting hyperlinks to work in posts (no biggie, but I like to link things like story names etc for those who might not recognize them).

As far as the code goes, put something up one of the moderators will fix it, especially if you say you know it isn't right.  Then you can come back click "modify" and look at what we did.  SMF uses BBCode.  It's a little obscure nowadays, so not everyone knows how it works.

Interesting.  The Internet Review of Science Fiction also uses BBCode, if I am not mistaken, but their tags run [a][/a] for hyperlinks.  I will keep trying to wrap my brain around it.  Give it a shot for the attempted IROSF link. Their url is http://irosf.com

Quote
As far as the challenge goes, try to stay with movies if you can.  There's a better chance more people will know it and can judge how I did.

Ahh, taking the easy way I see.  :D  I keed, I keed.  Movies make it easier all around anyway.  In any case, if I come up with one, I will be sure to make a thread for us to argue in!

Mod:  OK, I did the link.  Short explanation:  Highlight what you want to link.  Click the hyperlink button above the smileys. (In Safari it's directly below the underline button. YMMV)  That gives you:
Code: [Select]
[url]Stuff you highlighted[/url]In the first brackets type an equals sign after url and then type the address.
Code: [Select]
[url=http://crap.com]Stuff you highlighted[/url]You are done.

I realize you had already done some of this.  I figured since I was doing it, I might as well do it from the first step, so all the new folks could see.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 05:59:27 PM by Russell Nash »

What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' didn't you understand?


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Reply #62 on: July 04, 2008, 10:48:03 PM
Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)
I don't think that's entirely fair to the colonists.

Tad, we tend not to call you "colonists" any more and we know that not all of you are stoopid.  ;)

Seriously, I thought this story was pretty meh.  I love Firefly but not for the trappings of Western-in-space.  In fact, I find that whole concept boring, nostalgic, absurd and antithetical to the spirit of science fiction.  The point of Westerns is that they mythologize a brief period when very specific geopolitical and technological circumstances created a new culture.  Even if a future civilization has a similar remoteness from existing forms of authority it will not result in a recreation of the Western aesthetic.  As already mentioned in this thread, some remote regions of India and China face a subset of the pressures on America's West but nobody would mistake daily life there for life in the West -- if nothing else there's better cellphone coverage.

At the risk of derailing the thread (Russell, feel free to split it if I get some replies) can anyone recommend SF where future colonization is described in a way that reads plausibly without fetishizing the Western past?  I thought that the first couple of hundred pages of The Reality Dysfunction (seems to have been split into two paperbacks for the US market, which isn't a bad idea for a 1000-page book) did a fairly good job.  Any other suggestions for forward-looking frontierism?

Mod: link EPized
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 06:46:56 PM by Russell Nash »



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Reply #63 on: July 04, 2008, 10:52:11 PM
SMF uses BBCode.  It's a little obscure nowadays, so not everyone knows how it works.

This page wasn't hard to find back in the day when I first felt the need to Google it, and it's never let me down.  It's not easily searchable but all the information is there.



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Reply #64 on: July 04, 2008, 11:34:36 PM
Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)
I don't think that's entirely fair to the colonists.

Tad, we tend not to call you "colonists" any more and we know that not all of you are stoopid.  ;)

...  As already mentioned in this thread, some remote regions of India and China face a subset of the pressures on America's West but nobody would mistake daily life there for life in the West -- if nothing else there's better cellphone coverage.


Not *ALL* of us... but my neighbors are drinking and ligthing off fireworks, which tends to argue against being S-M-R-T.   ::)

And, no, I didn't intend to compare India or China with the "wild west"; just to point out that advanced cultures can have a wide disparity of economic situations.  And that it's not a question of brainses... unless zombies get involved.

Hmmmm...

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Reply #65 on: July 06, 2008, 03:55:02 AM
...can anyone recommend SF where future colonization is described in a way that reads plausibly without fetishizing the Western past?

I remember a story from the first issue of Orson Scott Card's Intergalactic Medicine Show called Respite by Rachel Ann Dryden.  As well as I can remember, I think it fits that criteia.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 03:56:42 AM by Swamp »

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Biscuit

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Reply #66 on: July 07, 2008, 12:49:02 AM
Tango - no probs :) All for the sake of intelligent discussion! (which is what I LOVE about these forums)

In fact, I find that whole concept boring, nostalgic, absurd and antithetical to the spirit of science fiction.  The point of Westerns is that they mythologize a brief period when very specific geopolitical and technological circumstances created a new culture.  Even if a future civilization has a similar remoteness from existing forms of authority it will not result in a recreation of the Western aesthetic.  As already mentioned in this thread, some remote regions of India and China face a subset of the pressures on America's West but nobody would mistake daily life there for life in the West -- if nothing else there's better cellphone coverage.

You summed this up far better than I would be able to articulate (and with more multi-syllable words too!).


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Reply #67 on: July 07, 2008, 01:21:17 PM
Being a big fan of the Firefly/Serenity Mythos, I found this story to come up tragically short. Like Neophytes and Neon Lights, the Sci-Fi was stapled on almost as an afterthought. In F/S, Sci-Fi is the setting, and needed for many of the twists and turns in the show and movie. Here, it seemed like window dressing. Science Fiction did not add to the story, nor did it detract from it, but it was barely used in the story at all.

I found myself eating this green eggs and ham and finding out that they are regular ham and eggs with food coloring added.



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Reply #68 on: July 07, 2008, 01:34:15 PM
Being a big fan of the Firefly/Serenity Mythos, I found this story to come up tragically short. Like Neophytes and Neon Lights, the Sci-Fi was stapled on almost as an afterthought. In F/S, Sci-Fi is the setting, and needed for many of the twists and turns in the show and movie. Here, it seemed like window dressing. Science Fiction did not add to the story, nor did it detract from it, but it was barely used in the story at all.

I found myself eating this green eggs and ham and finding out that they are regular ham and eggs with food coloring added.

This sentiment has been repeated oft in this thread, and I offer one consideration.  I believe it was mentioned that this was a stories from either a collection of stories in the same universe and/or possibly a novel.  Perhaps the the other stories in the collection delve deeper into the truly sci-fi aspects of the world.  Perhaps this story is sample of one of the "western" worlds, showing the sci-fi only as the previously-established backdrop.

Just a thought.  The story for me was OK, and that's about it.

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Reply #69 on: July 08, 2008, 10:19:19 PM
I liked the story, but comparing it to Firefly was not fair.  I guess the same will go for all films in the sword and sorcery genre that come after Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies.  They'll get the comparison and it won't be fair at all.

On the subject of colony worlds devolving into wild west type society, I find that totally believable myself.  Technology needs the infrastructure to exist.  If there's no factories to build Ipods, then no one will have Ipods.  For us, there's a factory in China or whatever, and it's easy enough for one to be shipped here.  But what if the factory was on Mars, how easy would that shipping be.  Eventually all the worlds will progress to where they can build their own technology, but to begin with, frontier planets could easily resemble the wild west.

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Reply #70 on: July 08, 2008, 11:15:35 PM
I liked the story, but comparing it to Firefly was not fair.  I guess the same will go for all films in the sword and sorcery genre that come after Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies.  They'll get the comparison and it won't be fair at all.

Comparing all sci-fi westerns to Firefly is particularly unfair since the aforementioned Oblivion movies, as well as the anime Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Outlaw Star, all predate Firefly by some years.

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Reply #71 on: July 09, 2008, 12:25:24 AM
Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)

  That didn't work out fo well for the Golgfrinchans, dirty telephones and all.

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Reply #72 on: July 09, 2008, 10:32:31 PM
Perhaps the the other stories in the collection delve deeper into the truly sci-fi aspects of the world.  Perhaps this story is sample of one of the "western" worlds, showing the sci-fi only as the previously-established backdrop.

Fair enough, and I'm sure writers put out these short stories as tasters for their novels (which is how I got to Allen Steele's Coyote universe). But sometimes these short stories expect your foreknowledge of said universe to such an extent that anyone who hasn't read the novels/other stories can feel disconnected.


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Reply #73 on: July 09, 2008, 10:51:10 PM
SMF uses BBCode.  It's a little obscure nowadays, so not everyone knows how it works.

This page wasn't hard to find back in the day when I first felt the need to Google it, and it's never let me down.  It's not easily searchable but all the information is there.

Legacy of Heorot by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle is fantastic.  Likewise the relentlessly nasty Coyote by Allen Steele.



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Reply #74 on: July 10, 2008, 02:50:12 AM
Claim of ignorance: I missed how Cate realized that Mr. Big Shot killed her friend.
Wakela, i was wondering the same thing. I missed that, too. I was hoping someone would answer that question for us, because i didn't enjoy the story enough to listen to it again. :P

Comparing all sci-fi westerns to Firefly is particularly unfair since the aforementioned Oblivion movies, as well as the anime Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Outlaw Star, all predate Firefly by some years.
I can't speak for Outlaw Star (that's a new one to me), but Trigun and Bebop were certainly great sci-fi westerns. I may even like those better than Firefly, though i can't say i've seen enough episodes to make a fair judgment.