Author Topic: EP175: Reparations  (Read 36347 times)

SFEley

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1408
    • Escape Artists, Inc.
Reply #25 on: September 14, 2008, 07:21:32 PM
You should read the rest if you haven't already. It's Desmond Warzel's Wikihistory. It would make a nice flash.

Holy cow, that IS good.  Good enough to make me push "resurrect EP flash" a notch or two higher up in my brainspace.  Thank you for the pointer, Alllie!

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


alllie

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 174
    • alllieblog
Reply #26 on: September 14, 2008, 08:15:34 PM
You should read the rest if you haven't already. It's Desmond Warzel's Wikihistory. It would make a nice flash.

Holy cow, that IS good.  Good enough to make me push "resurrect EP flash" a notch or two higher up in my brainspace.  Thank you for the pointer, Alllie!

Yeah, it's a really fun little piece. Fun to read especially if you hang out on forums and can recognize all the people in that forum.


And speaking of Hitler and Time Travel here is a funny cartoon.

http://www.viruscomix.com/obersalzberg.jpg
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 10:47:10 PM by alllie »



wintermute

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • What Would Batman Do?
Reply #27 on: September 15, 2008, 12:43:43 PM
But back to this story, it was my interpretation that it was the same timeline for both nuns, if they were actually nuns. The first one lets herself who is 2 days older, go in her place. As a result she goes into the city during that two days, is burned somehow and meets the old man and the kid and goes back to take the place of her two-days younger self who then has to stay two days and goes into the city and gets burned and meets the old man and the kid and goes back to take the place of her 2 days younger self who then goes into the city...
EDIT: Now that I think about this more I think it couldn't work. But just illustrates how confusing time paradoxes can get.
So... she found a time machine lying around in 1945 Hiroshima? And it hadn't been destroyed by the nuclear blast? Seems like the kind of thing that would require an explicit mention, to me.

Science means that not all dreams can come true


Listener

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • I place things in locations which later elude me.
    • Various and Sundry Items of Interest
Reply #28 on: September 15, 2008, 12:51:51 PM
My head just exploded.  :o

Have you seen Primer?

I have not.  Just read about it on Wikipedia, though, and will add to my Netflix list.  Sounds cool.  I love time travel books also. 

If you thought the paradox in this story made your head asplode, Primer REALLY will. It's a great film.

"Farts are a hug you can smell." -Wil Wheaton

Blog || Quote Blog ||  Written and Audio Work || Twitter: @listener42


Listener

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • I place things in locations which later elude me.
    • Various and Sundry Items of Interest
Reply #29 on: September 15, 2008, 12:57:15 PM
Reading was skillful, although the shifting between dispassionate narration and "OMG I'm totally going to cry" narration was a little odd to me.

Not much else to say on this story, but the argument between forcing people to go back as community service vs. volunteers choosing to go back is an interesting one. I think that would be a good split-off topic -- compulsory service -- so I will not go into it here.

I would like to know more about the series of events that led up to the reparations thing. It doesn't surprise me; Americans are pretty guilt-ridden, and our country DID wipe two cities off the map.

"Farts are a hug you can smell." -Wil Wheaton

Blog || Quote Blog ||  Written and Audio Work || Twitter: @listener42


alllie

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 174
    • alllieblog
Reply #30 on: September 15, 2008, 04:00:18 PM
But back to this story, it was my interpretation that it was the same timeline for both nuns, if they were actually nuns. The first one lets herself who is 2 days older, go in her place. As a result she goes into the city during that two days, is burned somehow and meets the old man and the kid and goes back to take the place of her two-days younger self who then has to stay two days and goes into the city and gets burned and meets the old man and the kid and goes back to take the place of her 2 days younger self who then goes into the city...
EDIT: Now that I think about this more I think it couldn't work. But just illustrates how confusing time paradoxes can get.
So... she found a time machine lying around in 1945 Hiroshima? And it hadn't been destroyed by the nuclear blast? Seems like the kind of thing that would require an explicit mention, to me.

You're right. I did put an edit in acknowledging that wasn't possible. Though I still don't understand when the burned self came in. I thought she always came in at exactly the same time.



stePH

  • Actually has enough cowbell.
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3906
  • Cool story, bro!
    • Thetatr0n on SoundCloud
Reply #31 on: September 15, 2008, 05:22:21 PM
But back to this story, it was my interpretation that it was the same timeline for both nuns, if they were actually nuns. The first one lets herself who is 2 days older, go in her place. As a result she goes into the city during that two days, is burned somehow and meets the old man and the kid and goes back to take the place of her two-days younger self who then has to stay two days and goes into the city and gets burned and meets the old man and the kid and goes back to take the place of her 2 days younger self who then goes into the city...
EDIT: Now that I think about this more I think it couldn't work. But just illustrates how confusing time paradoxes can get.
So... she found a time machine lying around in 1945 Hiroshima? And it hadn't been destroyed by the nuclear blast? Seems like the kind of thing that would require an explicit mention, to me.

You're right. I did put an edit in acknowledging that wasn't possible. Though I still don't understand when the burned self came in. I thought she always came in at exactly the same time.

It makes perfect sense.  She meets herself twice, once from each point of view in the same encounter.  No recursive time loop need occur.

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


stePH

  • Actually has enough cowbell.
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3906
  • Cool story, bro!
    • Thetatr0n on SoundCloud
Reply #32 on: September 15, 2008, 05:50:32 PM
It makes perfect sense.  She meets herself twice, once from each point of view in the same encounter.  No recursive time loop need occur.

... no, wait ... doesn't work.  Her self that is narrating the story proceeds forward in time from the point of meeting her burned future self, so howinhell does she return with the child and the old man back to the point in time where she meets her "past" self?

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


wintermute

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • What Would Batman Do?
Reply #33 on: September 15, 2008, 06:07:55 PM
It makes perfect sense.  She meets herself twice, once from each point of view in the same encounter.  No recursive time loop need occur.

... no, wait ... doesn't work.  Her self that is narrating the story proceeds forward in time from the point of meeting her burned future self, so howinhell does she return with the child and the old man back to the point in time where she meets her "past" self?
She makes the emergency pick up in two days, and goes back to 21st Century America. She goes on an unknown number of trips back to Hiroshima on the 6th of August 1945. On one of these trips, she meets the man and boy, and takes them to the pick up point where we meet them.

Seems fairly cut and dried to me.

Science means that not all dreams can come true


stePH

  • Actually has enough cowbell.
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3906
  • Cool story, bro!
    • Thetatr0n on SoundCloud
Reply #34 on: September 15, 2008, 06:31:08 PM
She makes the emergency pick up in two days, and goes back to 21st Century America. She goes on an unknown number of trips back to Hiroshima on the 6th of August 1945. On one of these trips, she meets the man and boy, and takes them to the pick up point where we meet them.

Seems fairly cut and dried to me.

Yeah, that works.  And there's still no need to get caught in a loop, which was the point I was trying to make.

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


Ocicat

  • Castle Watchcat
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3722
  • Anything for a Weird Life
Reply #35 on: September 15, 2008, 07:33:22 PM
Liked the story - rare for me on a time travel piece.  Yes, the mechanics of it make my head hurt as usual, but this time around it was mostly in a good way.  There was no obvious violation of internal self consistency.  Or at least not enough to get in the way of the character story, which was rather good. I am a bit of a sucker for stories about Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and Dresden for that matter.  I know my history here, and think it's a critical place to revisit and examine.  We should never forget what we, as a country, have done.




Zathras

  • Guest
Reply #36 on: September 15, 2008, 10:00:10 PM
Ok, brining up my question again, now that I've relistened to the story.

The old woman saw Laura's "sister" and remarked on it.  What happens in a week, a month or a year when all the survivors tell their stories and the same nuns appear everywhere in the city at the same time?



Cerebrilith

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 62
Reply #37 on: September 16, 2008, 12:43:54 AM
I enjoyed this story very much.  Good choice for the date, well written, and well read.  All around good experience.



slic

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 727
  • Stephen Lumini
Reply #38 on: September 16, 2008, 04:07:15 AM
Wow.
My fingers have hovered over the keys for a little while trying to think of something more worthy to describe how great I thought the story was.  Can't.
I should just quote Anarkey's first post in regards to Mr. Resnick's stories and how this one struck me emotionally because she read my mind on that.

I usually have real trouble with time travel stories for most of the reasons stated by others.  However, similar to "12 Monkeys", the time travel was glossed over and it really didn't matter how, it was just part of the fabric of the story.

Of course, as much as the story impacted me, I'll admit my nit-picking cold-hearted logic brain kicked in about 5 minutes after listening with the same thought as Zathras voiced - there'd be 40 identical versions of Laura around the city.  Then my reality editing ability took over and changed the number in the story from 40 to 7, and I felt better.  Then my logic brain proposed a new interpretation which returned reality back to it's former self - consider the following points
a) there were two cities, she could have worked at both, so the 40 drops to 20,
b) the "zones" she visited could have lots of space between them so as a rule the most some person might notice is twins, and
c) that's assuming that any survivor is going to notice, remember or care that they saw some gai-jin that looked like some other gai-jin when their entire world was destroyed in hellfire,
c-part 2) even if there was an official noting of this, they would likely write it off to the "strained brain" of the survivors, and finally
d) it was noted a few times that people rarely came back, so Laura was an anomoly (and, of course, the story writing part of my brain took over for a bit and added that there was normally a cap of 10 trips, but Laura was some high-up mucky-muck's daughter and she was a major exception).
This made me feel even better because I hate having to edit reality - leads to all sorts of trouble, believe me.


After reading the time travel logic debate, I just wish I had my own time machine so I could go back and listen to the story sooner so I could throw in my theory in a timely fashion - but here it goes anyway:
Laura40 can't possibly find the boy in the next two days because he's gone, so simple physics dictates that she returns to Aug 6th at least one more time in some fashion (perhaps illegally) becoming Laura41. Arguebly this is done without her meds (clandestinely could result in that), and arguably she returns near the zone of Laura40.  Once she (Laura41) discovers the boy and the old man, they start walking to Laura40's zone (they have many hours to do this) - Laura41 suffers from radiation sickness, etc (this is why it has to be without meds) hence the loss of hair.
Laura41 leaves on Aug 6th, while Laura40 has to wait two days to go home.  The beauty of time travel is that it could be months or years before Laura40 becomes Laura41 - in fact Laura40 could learn where she "finds" the boy from the boy himself before going back.  The story clearly indicated that multiple "versions" can exist in the same time area without immediate reprecussions.



Chivalrybean

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
    • The Space Turtle
Reply #39 on: September 16, 2008, 04:53:23 AM
I decided not to read too much of the time travel comments here before bed {:0P

I enjoyed the story, and it all made sense, right up to the end. Maybe I was just expecting one thing and got another. I know she broke to save the people, but was there a specific reason to save THEM? Obviously, saving them to save them is a good enough reason, but I felt like I missed something.


The Space Turtle - News that didn't happen, stories to entertain.


evo.shandor

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 23
Reply #40 on: September 16, 2008, 02:35:28 PM
Awful, horrible and insulting.  Worst Escape Pod ever by far.

The main character is a jerk.  She doesn’t want to train “the newbie”, so I assume the main character was never a newbie and never made mistakes.  But, oh wait, she forgets a vital piece of equipment.  Training newcomers can be a challenge, but it is also an honor.  Stopping whining about it.

The newbie, though, is a doctor, the result of months of training and no doubt a rigorous selection process…and she’s an airhead.  Unbelievable and clichéd.

But the title is insulting.  I’d be ok with a title like “Mercy” about a future philanthropist sending aid to past World War II tragedies—Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hong Kong, Nanking, Dresden—or if a Japanese team going to Nanking had been mentioned where EVERYONE is trying to make up for suffering that was caused.  But “reparations” has a specific meaning.  This story suggests America sends back aid either because they are forced to, or out of a sense of guilt to make up for an injustice or wrong, namely the bombing of the two cities.  Such Western guilt is useless and sickens me.

Let’s be clear: The bombs were used in a time of war against military targets.  No doubt it was horrific.  No doubt civilians were killed.  But as Steve urges listeners to learn about Hiroshima & Nagasaki, also learn about Nanking, Bataan, the attack on Hong Kong, and treatment of POWs by the Japanese.  Also look at the alternative: an invasion of the Japanese isles, which would have killed many more civilians as well as allied forces (But oh wait, we are dealing with Western guilt, so the death of allied soldiers is OK because they are an extension of imperial ambitious and the military/industrial complex, right?).  It turns my stomach when we in the West look at our history and feel bad when you do not look a the larger context.  (Example: Yes, Europeans bought slaves in Africa, but it was other Africans who sold them -- plenty of blame to go around regarding the slave trade.)

The line “every American should do this” (or something like that, I refuse to listen again to get the quote exact) is a slap in the face.  Then every Japanese should suffer through the Rape of Nanking, and every Muslim who cheered as the Twin Towers fell or believe the Jews were behind the attacks should be in the buildings as they fell, and every German should live in a concentration camp.  It useless, politically-correct BS.  Many of the men involved in developing and dropping the bomb, and making all of the decisions along the way, suffered horrible guilt, and understandably so, but it was the right decision to end the war.

I will never read another story by Ms. Haskell, not buy a magazine or anthology with her in it, and delete unlistened anymore Escape Pods by her.  I am so insulted, I might even stop listening to Escape Pod if Steve feels this type of story is appropriate for 9/11.  That’s not to say we should have had some “USA!  USA!” type story, but to publish something that slaps America’s history in the face and pisses all over a difficult, but necessary and ultimately correct, military decision shows poor, poor judgement.

“Have fun”, indeed.



wintermute

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • What Would Batman Do?
Reply #41 on: September 16, 2008, 02:46:35 PM
The line “every American should do this” (or something like that, I refuse to listen again to get the quote exact) is a slap in the face.  Then every Japanese should suffer through the Rape of Nanking, and every Muslim who cheered as the Twin Towers fell or believe the Jews were behind the attacks should be in the buildings as they fell, and every German should live in a concentration camp.
Or, if you want to go by the theme of the story, they ought to help the people who did go through that. It's not like these people were being sent back in time to be nuked.

Oh, and you might have missed the fact that the idea that “every American should do this” was explicitly rejected. More on practical than moral grounds, but it was clear that the author does not believe that there's a universal moral imperative; those people that want to help should be able to do so, and those that don't shouldn't be forced to.

Science means that not all dreams can come true


stePH

  • Actually has enough cowbell.
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3906
  • Cool story, bro!
    • Thetatr0n on SoundCloud
Reply #42 on: September 16, 2008, 02:57:48 PM
Awful, horrible and insulting.  Worst Escape Pod ever by far.

[snip rant]

“Have fun”, indeed.

Steve actually omitted "Have fun" from his outro in this episode.  Just saying.

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


slic

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 727
  • Stephen Lumini
Reply #43 on: September 16, 2008, 04:24:58 PM
Such Western guilt is useless and sickens me.
You make a valid point, but I think you do the author and the story a disservice.  For me, the sense of this story is not so much different than when someone goes to another state or country and helps people in areas devastated by natural disaster.

I agree that the title implies more than just some organization wanting to help, and there was text in the story making it clear this was truly considered reperations of some kind.  The story never said why the reperations were called for (perhaps nuclear bombs were dropped in some recent conflict and the international community demaned them), but I'll cede that point.

As for the "Every American should" line in the story, I took that to be one more example of american-centric thinking - of course it should be "Every person should" but nothing wrong with starting in your own backyard, I suppose.  Every person should be exposed to these horrors in the hopes of discouraging them from happening again.
 
It turns my stomach when we in the West look at our history and feel bad when you do not look a the larger context.  (Example: Yes, Europeans bought slaves in Africa, but it was other Africans who sold them -- plenty of blame to go around regarding the slave trade.)
I'm sorry but "they did it too" has never been an acceptable reason to do something in my home.  I really think it is backwards thinking to ignore or try to justify poor behaviour from the past.  We need to learn from it, and prevent it whenever possible.

Let’s be clear: The bombs were used in a time of war against military targets...Also look at the alternative: an invasion of the Japanese isles, which would have killed many more civilians as well as allied forces...
For the record, I completely agree that dropping one bomb was absolutely necessary, and for reasons beyond just ending the war in the Pacific theatre.  However, I haven't yet heard a compelling reason for the second bomb.  Perhaps you can let me know your reasons.



evo.shandor

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 23
Reply #44 on: September 16, 2008, 05:04:59 PM
It turns my stomach when we in the West look at our history and feel bad when you do not look a the larger context.  (Example: Yes, Europeans bought slaves in Africa, but it was other Africans who sold them -- plenty of blame to go around regarding the slave trade.)
I'm sorry but "they did it too" has never been an acceptable reason to do something in my home.
Do not put words in my mouth.  I am not saying it is acceptable.  I am addressing Western Guilt -- this sense that the West has been a force of destruction in the world and then pointing to examples like the slave trade.   The West was one of several players.  There is enough blame and guilt to go around, but I resent it when all of the blame is placed on Europeans/the West.

Let’s be clear: The bombs were used in a time of war against military targets...Also look at the alternative: an invasion of the Japanese isles, which would have killed many more civilians as well as allied forces...
For the record, I completely agree that dropping one bomb was absolutely necessary, and for reasons beyond just ending the war in the Pacific theatre.  However, I haven't yet heard a compelling reason for the second bomb.  Perhaps you can let me know your reasons.
The bombs were meant to force a surrender.  No surrender came, so a second bomb was dropped.  Certainly, while the first bomb was an agonzing decision, the second was that much harder.  Acknowledging all the horror they caused, I think both bombs were necessary.



evo.shandor

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 23
Reply #45 on: September 16, 2008, 05:07:47 PM
Awful, horrible and insulting.  Worst Escape Pod ever by far.

[snip rant]

“Have fun”, indeed.

Steve actually omitted "Have fun" from his outro in this episode.  Just saying.

Which is why I noted it.



wintermute

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • What Would Batman Do?
Reply #46 on: September 16, 2008, 05:10:16 PM
Do not put words in my mouth.  I am not saying it is acceptable.  I am addressing Western Guilt -- this sense that the West has been a force of destruction in the world and then pointing to examples like the slave trade.   The West was one of several players.  There is enough blame and guilt to go around, but I resent it when all of the blame is placed on Europeans/the West.
So, your problem is with the explicit mention in the text that other nations aren't expected to provide reparations for their wrongs, but only America? Because I missed that bit.

Science means that not all dreams can come true


evo.shandor

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 23
Reply #47 on: September 16, 2008, 05:23:11 PM
Do not put words in my mouth.  I am not saying it is acceptable.  I am addressing Western Guilt -- this sense that the West has been a force of destruction in the world and then pointing to examples like the slave trade.   The West was one of several players.  There is enough blame and guilt to go around, but I resent it when all of the blame is placed on Europeans/the West.
So, your problem is with the explicit mention in the text that other nations aren't expected to provide reparations for their wrongs, but only America? Because I missed that bit.

Are you saying my issue is that the text did not mention if other nations are doing anything?  Then so, then yes -- mentioning that other nations were sending aid to the past to help those damaged by their actions would change my view of the story.  It might even be uplifting in that sometime in the future nations of the world can agree to use time travel for compassionate and charitable reasons.

But my big issue, to use your words, is: "reparations for their wrongs".  I believe reparations should be made for past wrongs, like Japanese internment during WW2.  Internment was a racist, panic-driven, bone-headed move America (and Canada) should hang its head about.  In other words, it was wrong.  But the A-bombs were not wrong.  Horrible, yes, but not wrong.  Should we show mercy, comfort, compassion and assistance to those injured -- sure, that is a human, moral reaction.  But it is NOT reparations.



wintermute

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • What Would Batman Do?
Reply #48 on: September 16, 2008, 05:39:10 PM
So.... you don't have a problem with what is done in the story, only with the word used to describe it?

Science means that not all dreams can come true


evo.shandor

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 23
Reply #49 on: September 16, 2008, 05:43:32 PM
Oh, and you might have missed the fact that the idea that “every American should do this” was explicitly rejected. More on practical than moral grounds, but it was clear that the author does not believe that there's a universal moral imperative;
The way I read (heard) the “every American should do this” line was the author speaking and advocating it as a moral imperative, but the other characters rejected it out of practical reasons to keep internal logic in the story.  Courses for horses.

those people that want to help should be able to do so, and those that don't shouldn't be forced to.
But they are making reparations, which -- by definition -- has some (legal or otherwise) coercion or moral imperative to do so.