Author Topic: when the end comes !  (Read 259822 times)

Heradel

  • Bill Peters, EP Assistant
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2930
  • Part-Time Psychopomp.
Reply #100 on: April 12, 2007, 10:59:13 AM
I'm glad Heradel is our team, because he is definitely thinking big.  Though I'm going to wait over here while he experiments with refining diesel if you don't mind.

The real problem comes when Heradel becomes a zombie and presents them with the same plans as their strategist.

Pff.

As if I would ever present them with Humanity's plan.

Seriously Steve, any strategist worth his salt would tell the Zombies that they need to let the humans regain a foothold so that they'll have a fresh supply of humans for whenever the need arises.

(Are we assuming a hive brain with our zombies?)

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1398
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #101 on: April 12, 2007, 11:32:03 AM
I'm glad Heradel is our team, because he is definitely thinking big.  Though I'm going to wait over here while he experiments with refining diesel if you don't mind.

The real problem comes when Heradel becomes a zombie and presents them with the same plans as their strategist.

Right! We should kill Heradel now, to make sure that won't happen!

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


Heradel

  • Bill Peters, EP Assistant
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2930
  • Part-Time Psychopomp.
Reply #102 on: April 12, 2007, 01:21:13 PM
I'm glad Heradel is our team, because he is definitely thinking big.  Though I'm going to wait over here while he experiments with refining diesel if you don't mind.
The real problem comes when Heradel becomes a zombie and presents them with the same plans as their strategist.
Right! We should kill Heradel now, to make sure that won't happen!

Oi!
Er,
   well,
        Sigh,
             alright.

Obviously as I have already laid out my plans for the survival of the human race in the event of Zombies I am of little use to you in that regard. In that case, it would make perfect sense to kill me so that they can't get to me.

However, may I interest you in my line of Alien Invasion, Grey Goofication, and Rabid Monkey Adoration escape plans?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 01:23:44 PM by Heradel »

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1398
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #103 on: April 12, 2007, 02:38:06 PM
I'm glad Heradel is our team, because he is definitely thinking big.  Though I'm going to wait over here while he experiments with refining diesel if you don't mind.
The real problem comes when Heradel becomes a zombie and presents them with the same plans as their strategist.
Right! We should kill Heradel now, to make sure that won't happen!

Oi!
Er,
   well,
        Sigh,
             alright.

Obviously as I have already laid out my plans for the survival of the human race in the event of Zombies I am of little use to you in that regard. In that case, it would make perfect sense to kill me so that they can't get to me.

However, may I interest you in my line of Alien Invasion, Grey Goofication, and Rabid Monkey Adoration escape plans?

Good! Glad you see it my, er.. "Our" way. I'll read a nice poem at the funeral. Something with imagery. "Here lies our beloved Heradel, our autumn flower… somewhat less attractive now that they're all corpsified and gross…" *Ker-thwack*
Right... NEXT!
Cake or death?

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1398
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #104 on: April 13, 2007, 12:46:27 PM
Seriously (???) though, the Coast Guard ship is a great idea.
So is the island one.
Here in Michigan there are over 1000 islands in our lakes. Most are just moss on a rock but some, like Isle Royale, are easily inhabitable having been 'settled' in the past. It's within striking distance of the Canadian coast.

I don't think refining fuel would be too difficult, and we could probably do it on an oil platform. I think the basic idea is to heat slowly and carefully so that it striates in to different weights.

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


Bdoomed

  • Pseudopod Tiger
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5858
  • Mmm. Tiger.
Reply #105 on: April 14, 2007, 04:49:17 AM
The biggest problem with the island idea is that it would most likely be highly sought after by the fleeing populous.  The island would become overpopulated quickly, and you never know if someone on that island has been bitten or not...

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Startrekwiki

  • Guest
Reply #106 on: April 14, 2007, 12:24:59 PM
And if they are, it would be like a virus, like cholera.



Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1398
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #107 on: April 14, 2007, 03:32:24 PM
And if they are, it would be like a virus, like cholera.
or like a zombie bite. ; )

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


FNH

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
  • F Napoleon H
    • Black Dog Of Doom
Reply #108 on: April 14, 2007, 06:44:54 PM
zombie fish

No. No! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO--


Startrekwiki

  • Guest
Reply #109 on: April 14, 2007, 07:23:52 PM
And if they are, it would be like a virus, like cholera.
or like a zombie bite. ; )


I wonder if we let zombies live awhile in a place, say an island that they couldn't get off of. Then, we could watch them evolve... And protect ourselves from other outbreaks of the living dead....



Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1398
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #110 on: April 14, 2007, 09:52:44 PM
I wonder if we let zombies live awhile in a place, say an island that they couldn't get off of. Then, we could watch them evolve... And protect ourselves from other outbreaks of the living dead....
Zombies Evolve???

New bug out bag packing list:
S&W .44 Magnum
One (1) bullet
Tarp

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


Startrekwiki

  • Guest
Reply #111 on: April 14, 2007, 10:27:15 PM
I wonder if we let zombies live awhile in a place, say an island that they couldn't get off of. Then, we could watch them evolve... And protect ourselves from other outbreaks of the living dead....
Zombies Evolve???

New bug out bag packing list:
S&W .44 Magnum
One (1) bullet
Tarp

I don't see why not: they're living beings, derived from us, and, it seems from the abovementioned fish, so they may evolve, yes.



Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1398
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #112 on: April 15, 2007, 12:12:41 AM
I don't see why not: they're living beings, derived from us, and, it seems from the abovementioned fish, so they may evolve, yes.

living?  ???

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


SFEley

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1406
    • Escape Artists, Inc.
Reply #113 on: April 15, 2007, 01:36:12 AM
Zombies Evolve???
I don't see why not: they're living beings, derived from us, and, it seems from the abovementioned fish, so they may evolve, yes.

This is only assuming that a zombie which survives to "reproduce" (bite someone, I guess) passes on some of its attributes to its "offspring." 

Of course I also don't know what inheritable traits would make any given zombie more likely to survive and reproduce than another zombie.  Pointier teeth?  Faster shambling?  A fondness for liver in addition to brains?

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


Michael

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
Reply #114 on: April 15, 2007, 02:57:13 AM
If we presume zombification is due to a virus or bacterium, then potentially zombie evolution could be exponentially faster than human evolution, as single celled creatures are notoriously adaptable.  The most likely innovation would be not to kill their hosts... a zombie longevity modification. "Killing" (rendering immobile or degraded in functional capacity) your host is not the ideal outcome.  Most new viruses start off as lethal and get "tamer" with time as they learn to more live symbiotically.


Startrekwiki

  • Guest
Reply #115 on: April 15, 2007, 03:32:30 PM
But we might not be around long enough. I mean, if they bite every living being on Earth, then they may not evolve: they would simply starve, or whatever zombies do when deprived of brains.

My point being, we might not live long enough as a species to see "evolved" zombies.



Bdoomed

  • Pseudopod Tiger
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5858
  • Mmm. Tiger.
Reply #116 on: April 15, 2007, 08:22:03 PM
What do zombies do when deprived of brains?
We really should put them on an island and watch what they do.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Startrekwiki

  • Guest
Reply #117 on: April 15, 2007, 08:24:37 PM
Sounds a little like Ancestor.



slic

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 726
  • Stephen Lumini
Reply #118 on: April 16, 2007, 03:15:12 AM
To really understand how to handle yourselves post-zombie-apocolypse, you need to check out Walking Dead put out by Image comics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Walking_Dead




wakela

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 779
    • Mr. Wake
Reply #119 on: April 16, 2007, 07:34:10 AM
Quote
The most likely innovation would be not to kill their hosts...
Haven't the zombie bacteria already evolved this trait?

Quote
What do zombies do when deprived of brains?
I think they just lie around, don't they?  Do zombies continue to decompose?  It's possible that the zombie bacteria produces a toxin that prevents decomposition.  But the Z-bacteria have to eat something too, so they would probably slowly decompose their host.  If it's a virus, then it wouldn't have to eat anything, but it would be unable to prevent ordinary decomposition.   Now that I think of it, though, this is a moot question.  Can we agree that zombies can't heal or feel pain?  This combination would cause their limbs to wear down to useless nubs as they shamble around, bumping into things.   So the zombie-only island would eventually be populated with squirming zombie torsos. 

Quote
The biggest problem with the island idea is that it would most likely be highly sought after by the fleeing populous.  The island would become overpopulated quickly, and you never know if someone on that island has been bitten or not...
And I had just been convinced to rejoin society.  Screw that.  I'm back on my sail boat with my fishing pole and my solar-powered desalinator.   Besides if you have seen any zombie movies you know that the problem is not the zombies.  It's always idiot humans who mess everything up.

...actually, the boat is starting to sound pretty good, anyway...



Heradel

  • Bill Peters, EP Assistant
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2930
  • Part-Time Psychopomp.
Reply #120 on: April 16, 2007, 08:35:13 AM
Quote
The most likely innovation would be not to kill their hosts...
Haven't the zombie bacteria already evolved this trait?
Well, the zombie bacteria (assuming it's related to those forms of fungus and bacteria we already see in the wild that have zombie-like characteristics) usually don't kill the host so much as cause death of personality. My assumption is that the zombies are only minimally conscious in a basic-instincts-kill-eat-infect kind of way, and probably don't feel any pain (thus the whole shotgun to the chest and keeping moving). Perhaps the [bacteria/virus/radiation] also [produces/causes cells to produce/rearranged DNA to produce] some sort of [stimulant/decentralization of the motor cortex/eventual re-engineering of the human body] that accounts for the super human strength but general slothiness.

Quote
What do zombies do when deprived of brains?
I think they just lie around, don't they?  Do zombies continue to decompose?  It's possible that the zombie bacteria produces a toxin that prevents decomposition.  But the Z-bacteria have to eat something too, so they would probably slowly decompose their host.  If it's a virus, then it wouldn't have to eat anything, but it would be unable to prevent ordinary decomposition.   Now that I think of it, though, this is a moot question.  Can we agree that zombies can't heal or feel pain?  This combination would cause their limbs to wear down to useless nubs as they shamble around, bumping into things.   So the zombie-only island would eventually be populated with squirming zombie torsos.

Personally I think that the lack of food would drive a survival of the fittest kind of structure (leaving a smaller population of zombies), or they would begin eating plants (obviously a last resort). It's also possible that they go into a hibernation-like state and wait until fresh food is sensed (not unlike bacteria[which would allow a panspermia-like zombie plague]).

Quote
The biggest problem with the island idea is that it would most likely be highly sought after by the fleeing populous.  The island would become overpopulated quickly, and you never know if someone on that island has been bitten or not...
And I had just been convinced to rejoin society.  Screw that.  I'm back on my sail boat with my fishing pole and my solar-powered desalinator.   Besides if you have seen any zombie movies you know that the problem is not the zombies.  It's always idiot humans who mess everything up.
...actually, the boat is starting to sound pretty good, anyway...
[/quote]

Well, yes, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the same island. Unfortunately this limits us to places will little human settlement and far away from land but not far enough that no one human could get there with chances over 50% of dying on the way. It's a hard balance. If you're in Europe I'd try Greece (hiding out in one of the few hundred little islands) or someplace cold enough to freeze the zombies. Really the key thing is being able to keep in contact with any other survivor groups, and the only really way to do this is with shortwave. The Iridium satellites will probably stay operational for a few years, so satellite phones will be an option in the early years, but those bird will end up de-orbiting and then all that will be left will be shortwave. Which also makes high ground a somewhat important factor in island choosing.

Multiple bases (it doesn't make sense for someone fleeing from Australia or India to head to Ascension anyway, Wake or Midway would be better, some of the more outlying Philippines would also probably make good choices. Those too-far inland might end up literally heading into the hills and mountains since the zombies can't usually climb that well. Which pops into my head this odd image of a bunch of Buddhist monks with machine guns, but it's late.

The point would be to save as many as possible as quickly as possible, and then to fortify what strongholds humanity can create. Start planting, start teaching everyone a common language (assuming that the world's numbers are reduced into the thousands range), start taking stock of what you have. Then maybe you start thinking about clearing... Cuba's Island of Youth or New Zealand or some other suitably large but yet small and somewhat isolated land mass that could be de-zombified and then resettled by humans as a large colony. But that would probably be more like 10-15 years out.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1398
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #121 on: April 16, 2007, 01:09:56 PM
Of course I also don't know what inheritable traits would make any given zombie more likely to survive and reproduce than another zombie.  Pointier teeth?  Faster shambling?  A fondness for liver in addition to brains?

These are some of the premises I use when considering zombies.

First off: Zombies Are Dead.
It's what makes a Zombie a Zombie.
If they weren't dead you'd be talking mind control, parasites, brain injuries, drug addiction, or mental retardation.

Zombies as an Organic Disease:
If you view zombies as a viral or bacterial infection then evolution is possible, but of the disease and not the host. The pathogen would evolve with each new host, and different strains would emerge with dominance being determined by the zombies who are the most effective at transmittal but not necessarily survival. The most common theme concerning transmission is that a host can catch zombie only through an exchange of bodily fluids; most frequently bite wounds, followed by scratches (presumably the fingers are hemorrhaging from injury or tissue failure), and then indirect contact (blood spatter).
As viruses can alter the genetic code inside cells, it might be possible to say that they could alter the physical properties of the host in small ways. This is not likely, nor do I believe it is adequately supported as I've yet to see a zombie do anything a sufficiently motivated human couldn’t.

Zombies as a Chemical Phenomenon:
If zombies are created thru man-made drugs (voodoo drugs and funny mushrooms count here too), than zombies could not evolve. Although bodily function could be interrupted and altered the drug would still have to act inside of the limits of human capability. All abilities would be based on the host's preexisting attributes: A zombie man could punch through a wood-covered window; a zombie weight lifter could rip the door off a car.

Zombies as a Paranormal Phenomenon:
Anything is possible, and your ass is probably grass. Go find an old priest and a young priest and a shotgun.

On Island Overpopulation:
It's nice to think that we can all get along, once the end comes, but we'll be competing for some rather scarce resources. The grim truth is that until things chill out and the zombie epidemic has peaked, it will probably be kill or be killed. You can't let your ship/castle/island/bunker be over crowded, and most likely you won't be able to afford the luxury of trusting strangers. Aside from being unable to support everyone and the heightened chance of infection (really, a full strip search and 2 minute medical check up, followed by a 24 hour quarantine would reduce the chance to near zero. Parties are always over run by the guy who hides that he was bit, not because no on knew), but because people in extreme situations often take extreme action. Anyone here a lifeguard? What is the risk of saving someone who is drowning?
Teamwork is important, but no matter where you are you can only support so many people, and to exceed that for even a few people is to risk dooming everyone. Mothers and fathers know how far they'd go to protect their children (Flat Diane anyone?), so what happens when it comes down to one father vs. father? When it comes down to one or the other?
Defending your conclave from humans will be the harder part of surviving the zombies.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 01:12:54 PM by Thaurismunths »

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


Heradel

  • Bill Peters, EP Assistant
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2930
  • Part-Time Psychopomp.
Reply #122 on: April 17, 2007, 04:14:11 AM
On Island Overpopulation:
It's nice to think that we can all get along, once the end comes, but we'll be competing for some rather scarce resources. The grim truth is that until things chill out and the zombie epidemic has peaked, it will probably be kill or be killed. You can't let your ship/castle/island/bunker be over crowded, and most likely you won't be able to afford the luxury of trusting strangers. Aside from being unable to support everyone and the heightened chance of infection (really, a full strip search and 2 minute medical check up, followed by a 24 hour quarantine would reduce the chance to near zero. Parties are always over run by the guy who hides that he was bit, not because no on knew), but because people in extreme situations often take extreme action. Anyone here a lifeguard? What is the risk of saving someone who is drowning?
Teamwork is important, but no matter where you are you can only support so many people, and to exceed that for even a few people is to risk dooming everyone. Mothers and fathers know how far they'd go to protect their children (Flat Diane anyone?), so what happens when it comes down to one father vs. father? When it comes down to one or the other?
Defending your conclave from humans will be the harder part of surviving the zombies.

Well, yes, but also no, due to travel time. It'll take days to weeks for most of humanity (in sailboats and jury-rigged to sail motorboats) to reach the islands, and with the communications equipment available on most decently equipped boats most island army bases will have a fair bit of warning. Food/Water becomes an issue with long travel times, but eliminating that as a pressure I would think that most of the survivors would be fatigued from boating all night/day for days and thus more amenable to quarantine in the short term. I think there will be bite-hiders, but I doubt that they'll hide it as well as they do in the movies. Especially when you get a situation where everyone has to go through a single checkpoint. Which is best done at a military base (which I view as unfortunate, because you don't want survivors wanting to be feeling like POW's).

Long term I'd like to think that communication would be good enough that trading networks would not be long before being set up, but I wouldn't be surprised by factions along language lines. I think that there will be some native-newbie tension, but I would hope that the whole world-changing-cataclysm would help erode what other tensions affect the word at large.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Thaurismunths

  • High Priest of TCoRN
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1398
  • Praise N-sh, for it is right and good!
Reply #123 on: April 17, 2007, 11:23:07 AM
I think we're talking about different points in the survival scenario; My concerns are with the first few months after the zombies attack, and you're looking at it a few years out. We aren't the only ones to have the idea of hiding on an island or hijacking a boat, so we'll be competing against billions of other people trying to do the same thing. Some will be better at it than others, and some will get lucky. And once you're on an island, you need food and infrastructure to support everyone and cities won't do anyone any good because they can't be self-sufficient.
I agree with the checkpoint strategy, also; all buildings should be off the ground by at least 4' off the ground with only ladders to get in them and tri-rope walkways going between them.

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


Startrekwiki

  • Guest
Reply #124 on: April 17, 2007, 11:59:12 AM
While everyone is concerned about large population / small island, why not take a big island, such as Greenland, and just live there. Leave the zombies to the rest of the world. Everything except Greenland, Antarctica, the Arctic, and Australia.

Why not?