EP's Hugo designation, split from EP169

[DKT]

So I've been thinking for a while now that one of the (very few) shames of Escape Pod is that being primarily a reprint market, they don't really get any Hugo attention.  I mean, some of my favorite stories reprinted here run after they're eligible for an award which sucks. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the first run of the story?  Could it be nominated (as run here) for a Hugo?  And is it in poor taste to talk something like that up here?

I'm just wondering, because I'd totally be willing to campaign to get this story, Sullydog, and EP nominated.

[Russell Nash]

So I've been thinking for a while now that one of the (very few) shames of Escape Pod is that being primarily a reprint market, they don't really get any Hugo attention.  I mean, some of my favorite stories reprinted here run after they're eligible for an award which sucks. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the first run of the story?  Could it be nominated (as run here) for a Hugo?  And is it in poor taste to talk something like that up here?

I'm just wondering, because I'd totally be willing to campaign to get this story, Sullydog, and EP nominated.

Hugo nominations for EP have been discussed before and there's one major obstacle to winning.  EP doesn't count as a magazine.  It counts as a production.  Therefore EP would be up against TV shows.  The audience of even the smallest series dwarfs EPs listenership.  If EP could count as a magazine, it would be able to shoot for a Hugo, but under the current system it doesn't stand a chance.

[Anarkey]

Hugo nominations for EP have been discussed before and there's one major obstacle to winning.  EP doesn't count as a magazine.  It counts as a production.  Therefore EP would be up against TV shows.  The audience of even the smallest series dwarfs EPs listenership.  If EP could count as a magazine, it would be able to shoot for a Hugo, but under the current system it doesn't stand a chance.

That categorization is a shame.  It seems obvious that Escape Pod is an audio fiction magazine (as are the other EA casts).  There's occasionally production that makes the cast a little closer to audio drama, but generally it's a single person reading a story and in one of the intros Steve talks about his intent and his preference to keep it simple.  Of course, it's not like EA creates the categorizations. 

[Bdoomed]

Of course, it's not like EA creates the categorizations. 

EA creates and EA destroys, such is The Way of EA.

[Talia]

Hugo nominations for EP have been discussed before and there's one major obstacle to winning.  EP doesn't count as a magazine.  It counts as a production.  Therefore EP would be up against TV shows.  The audience of even the smallest series dwarfs EPs listenership.  If EP could count as a magazine, it would be able to shoot for a Hugo, but under the current system it doesn't stand a chance.

That categorization is a shame.  It seems obvious that Escape Pod is an audio fiction magazine (as are the other EA casts).  There's occasionally production that makes the cast a little closer to audio drama, but generally it's a single person reading a story and in one of the intros Steve talks about his intent and his preference to keep it simple.  Of course, it's not like EA creates the categorizations. 

I cant help but think at the rate media is changing these days new categories will be introduced before long.

[Thaurismunths]

Hugo nominations for EP have been discussed before and there's one major obstacle to winning.  EP doesn't count as a magazine.  It counts as a production.  Therefore EP would be up against TV shows.  The audience of even the smallest series dwarfs EPs listenership.  If EP could count as a magazine, it would be able to shoot for a Hugo, but under the current system it doesn't stand a chance.

That categorization is a shame.  It seems obvious that Escape Pod is an audio fiction magazine (as are the other EA casts).  There's occasionally production that makes the cast a little closer to audio drama, but generally it's a single person reading a story and in one of the intros Steve talks about his intent and his preference to keep it simple.  Of course, it's not like EA creates the categorizations. 

I cant help but think at the rate media is changing these days new categories will be introduced before long.

I was just going to say that.
EP isn't really an audio magazine because all it has is one story plus intro and outro. All the rest: the fan fic, the editorials, etc, happen here in the forums.
I'm going to bet that before long "Podcast" and "Audiobook" will become a category all itself.

[Anarkey]

EP isn't really an audio magazine because all it has is one story plus intro and outro. All the rest: the fan fic, the editorials, etc, happen here in the forums.
I'm going to bet that before long "Podcast" and "Audiobook" will become a category all itself.

Hmmm, I would still dispute that it *is* an audio magazine.  There's no requirement that there be more than one story per magazine issue.  Further, if you take the usual magazine model, which is more likely to be monthly or quarterly than weekly, and put together all the EA stories you get in a month or a quarter, then you certainly have enough story material to constitute a magazine, if (for whatever reason) your definition of magazine requires more than one fiction offering per issue.  Now it is true that EP has no ISSN (though it can probably get one), but I would certainly classify it (if I were going to catalog it as a librarian) as a serial publication.  If it's not a serial publication, wth is it?  Although not all serial publications are magazines, most magazines are serial publications (I can't think of one that isn't).  I don't really see the difference between Ladies Home Journal and Escape Pod as a serial publication, unless it's in the superficial: one is packaged as dead tree, one is packaged as audio file.

Personally, I think "Podcast" would be a terrible category for Hugos, but then again, no one has asked me how to categorize Hugos, and probably for good reason.

[Thaurismunths]

EP isn't really an audio magazine because all it has is one story plus intro and outro. All the rest: the fan fic, the editorials, etc, happen here in the forums.
I'm going to bet that before long "Podcast" and "Audiobook" will become a category all itself.

Hmmm, I would still dispute that it *is* an audio magazine.  There's no requirement that there be more than one story per magazine issue.  Further, if you take the usual magazine model, which is more likely to be monthly or quarterly than weekly, and put together all the EA stories you get in a month or a quarter, then you certainly have enough story material to constitute a magazine, if (for whatever reason) your definition of magazine requires more than one fiction offering per issue.  Now it is true that EP has no ISSN (though it can probably get one), but I would certainly classify it (if I were going to catalog it as a librarian) as a serial publication.  If it's not a serial publication, wth is it?  Although not all serial publications are magazines, most magazines are serial publications (I can't think of one that isn't).  I don't really see the difference between Ladies Home Journal and Escape Pod as a serial publication, unless it's in the superficial: one is packaged as dead tree, one is packaged as audio file.

Personally, I think "Podcast" would be a terrible category for Hugos, but then again, no one has asked me how to categorize Hugos, and probably for good reason.

You are absolutely right that Escape Pod is a periodical, and might be able to get its own ISSN, but like you said not all periodicals are magazines. A "magazine" is "A periodical containing a collection of articles, stories, pictures, or other features." or "A television program that presents a variety of topics, usually on current events, in a format that often includes interviews and commentary."
EP is not mixed media, voice, the rest is associated content from the forums. And as there is only one topic/subject (story) per issue the second definition doesn't work either. A good example of an audio magazine would be Steampunk Spectacular. Each episode contains mix of different audio segments (fiction, fashion, social gatherings, technology, etc.) all done with the Steampunk aesthetic.
I could see Escape Artists as an audio magazine, published in three segments, or including the forums and call it an electronic magazine.

[Anarkey]

If EscapePod *isn't* a magazine, then perhaps you can explain to me why the EscapePod webpage tagline is "The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine". 

I can also rebut your latest round of assertions, if you'd like me to, but first you'll need to clarify what this sentence means, because I don't understand it, or how it relates to your argument though I get the sense it's important to your point: "EP is not mixed media, voice, the rest is associated content from the forums."

[wintermute]

If EscapePod *isn't* a magazine, then perhaps you can explain to me why the EscapePod webpage tagline is "The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine".

Why does McDonald's tagline say "I'm loving it", when in truth I'm merely not disliking it?

[Thaurismunths]

If EscapePod *isn't* a magazine, then perhaps you can explain to me why the EscapePod webpage tagline is "The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine". 

I can also rebut your latest round of assertions, if you'd like me to, but first you'll need to clarify what this sentence means, because I don't understand it, or how it relates to your argument though I get the sense it's important to your point: "EP is not mixed media, voice, the rest is associated content from the forums."

That's a good question, maybe you could ask whomever wrote that? I would guess that "Science Fiction Podcast Magazine" is meant to convey that EP is a Podcast featuring Science Fiction stories that are not related by author or world. And like Wintermute so eloquently pointed out taglines are taglines, not definitions or classifications. No moderating authority, such as those who run the Hugos, have designated EP a magazine.

"EP is not mixed media, voice, the rest is associated content from the forums."
Should read:
"EP is not mixed media, just voice, the rest (all the text, photos, etc) is associated content from the forums."
What I meant is:
One of the definitions of magazine is the use of multiple medias (such as text from professional and amateur writers and pictures/art). Escape pod only uses voice (much like books only use text).

I'm really just not interested in having an argument over this. My comment was not malicious, or inflammatory.
Although Science Fiction may be what you point at when you say it, magazines do seem to have a definition.  I don't believe that Escape Pod qualifies as a "magazine" unless you include all the podcasts and/or the forums. You are welcome to "rebut" my assertions, but please tell me how you define a magazine so I can understand where you're coming from.

[Russell Nash]

I think EP would fall into whatever category short story collections fall into. 

[Anarkey]

I'm really just not interested in having an argument over this.

Yeah, me neither.  Makes me tired just thinking about it.

Although Science Fiction may be what you point at when you say it, magazines do seem to have a definition.  I don't believe that Escape Pod qualifies as a "magazine" unless you include all the podcasts and/or the forums. You are welcome to "rebut" my assertions, but please tell me how you define a magazine so I can understand where you're coming from.

FWIW, there's plenty of definitions of "magazine" that don't include the word "collection" which is what you seem to be hinging your argument on (one, frex, is: "a periodical publication for general interest such as news, current events, and popular materials.").  Personally, I find it strange to require more than one article or story per issue as a qualifier, but if others find that particular characteristic a mandatory portion of the definition, so be it.  I think the spirit of EP is as a magazine: it has periodicity, and it has general interest, and it qualifies for an ISSN.  That's really all it takes for me to see it as a magazine.  I also believe in giving people some credit for what they call their endeavors unless their labels patently don't fit the def.  Eley has a tagline naming it a magazine.  Thus it is, at least so far as I'm concerned.  EP certainly seems more like a magazine than it does a tv show.  But then, who am I to say, and what do I really care?  I'm no one, and I don't actually care.  I don't really have a dog in this race...or hunt...or whatever it is I'm supposed to have the dog in (I always mangle that aphorism).

[Anarkey]

If EscapePod *isn't* a magazine, then perhaps you can explain to me why the EscapePod webpage tagline is "The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine".

Why does McDonald's tagline say "I'm loving it", when in truth I'm merely not disliking it?

I can't tell whether you're trying to be humorous, or whether you're making an implication that Steve Eley's marketing is in some way equivalent to McDonald's, and just as likely to be false. 

[Russell Nash]

If EscapePod *isn't* a magazine, then perhaps you can explain to me why the EscapePod webpage tagline is "The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine".

Why does McDonald's tagline say "I'm loving it", when in truth I'm merely not disliking it?

I can't tell whether you're trying to be humorous, or whether you're making an implication that Steve Eley's marketing is in some way equivalent to McDonald's, and just as likely to be false. 

Given it's coming from Wintermute, I'd say he's just taking his irony out for a walk.

EP certainly seems more like a magazine than it does a tv show. 

It seems an awful lot like a radio show though.

[DKT]

What's a radio show? 

[stePH]

quote]

Why does McDonald's tagline say "I'm loving it", when in truth I'm merely not disliking it?

I can't tell whether you're trying to be humorous, or whether you're making an implication that Steve Eley's marketing is in some way equivalent to McDonald's, and just as likely to be false. 

I think it's making the point that just calling it something doesn't make it so.  As a friend of mine says, "I can call my next crap a cherry poptart, but that doesn't make it one."

[Talia]

There's only one way to resolve this.

Jello wrestling.

Have at it, people.

[wintermute]

Despite what popular opinion would tell you, it turns out that watching jello "wrestle" is not terribly interesting. Despite having set up several bouts, I've found it very difficult to tell which flavour won, or even when the match ended.

[Listener]

What's a radio show? 

A podcast, but with commercials you can't skip that are usually for cars or politicians, and has annoying people calling in with their opinions instead of discussing them civilly on the internet.

[stePH]

What's a radio show? 

A podcast, but with commercials you can't skip that are usually for cars or politicians, and has annoying people calling in with their opinions instead of discussing them civilly on the internet.

You also have to listen at a specified time, not at a time of your choosing.

[SFEley]

You all are sweet.

To the topic at hand, I would say only that the Hugo rules are not cast upon stone tablets by divine hand, but are proposed and voted upon at the business meeting of the World Science Fiction Society.  Said business meeting takes place at Worldcon, often at some ridiculous time so that morning people can continue to rule the world.   The procedure for making motions, tabling them, ratifying them, etc. takes place across multiple Worldcons so no single interest group can take things over in a stroke.  The SMOFs (Secret Masters of Fandom) who keep this momentum going year after year tend to be a fairly staid and conservative group, but it's still an open process.

I also have no idea whether a rules change is necessary.  We should qualify as a semi-prozine already and our original fiction really ought to qualify in the short story category.  There's nothing cast in stone that says the markets and the publications can't be in audio form.  If they don't it's likely to be more due to a committee's interpretation than the absolute letter of the rules.

That said...   If anyone cares to put energy into pushing for nominations for our stories or markets I will say "Yay."  But I will not campaign for it myself.  I will not fight to create this change.  My feelings about the Hugo Award are positive (I wouldn't run the nominees each year otherwise) but my feelings about playing politics for a merit award are not.  I have other reasons too, but mostly I'd just feel really awkward about it.  It's not my flavor of ambition.  If that means we never win anything, I'm okay with that.  It doesn't seem to be hurting us so far.

[DKT]

John Scalzi has found out his audio-only recorded novella in Metatropolis qualifies as published work. So I guess this story does, too.

[tpi]

I gave a nominating vote for How I Mounted Goldie Saved My Partner Lori and Sniffed Out the Peoples Justice.
I am not sure if it will counted or not, but anyway...