EP181: Resistance

[Sylvan]

That's true, though there's a difference between what we like our (fictional and real) heroes to do, and what we'd do ourselves. That's why there are many more examples of revolution, revenge, and bravery against the odds in movies than in real life.

Oh, without a doubt!

For example, I love Firefly and Serenity; I can fantasize about the adventure and meaning in that fictional universe.  It's the same way that I think Stanuel and PAN are promoted in this story:  as iconic representations of ideology (like Mal and his crew) rather than something more broad.

Does that make any sense?

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)

[petronivs]

Am I the only one who wasn't enthused at all by this story?  It was way preachy and I didn't really find any of the concepts novel.

It sounded kind of like a Heinlein story (as noted by others), except that Heinlein could actually write interesting characters and he seldom got this out-and-out preachy.  Staniel sounds more like an object caught in the flow of a tide than someone who's actually developing.  At the end, I didn't know if he'd push the button not because it was a major cusp of a decision, but because I couldn't see the little paper man deciding anything on his own.

Pan himself was nothing but a font of angst.  His diatribes provided very little about why and how an AI software program had managed to set up a police state from scratch within a matter of days, and his argument that the people could simply vote him out at any time made me wonder why this wasn't rebutted.  If it was true, why wasn't there any mention of a campaign to do so?  His duality arguments, and setting up the resistance, made me think strongly of the redoubtable Leto Atreides II having a bastard child with Helios.

Then there was the gunbunny mercenary who started out preaching the gospel of his unholy god of explosives and rushing Staniel along like a paper boat caught in a tsunami.  As soon as he saw Pan, the author flipped a switch or did some kind of mind transferrance to turn him into an entirely different character, some kind of political science professor.  Then he abruptly agreed with everything Pan said and vanished stage left to leave Staniel with the Big Red Button in his hand.

I was left wondering, "wtf?  non sequitur," and quite as confused as I imagine Staniel was, as the curtain fell on this tragedy of a farce.

[DKT]

As for Sam L. Jackson I can see him as Pepper though Bruce Willis would be my preference.

Maybe, but I could never see Bruce with dreads.

I've seen Sam Jackson with dreads. It wasn't a pretty picture. Then again, pretty is probably not Pepper's goal. 

[Boggled Coriander]

This was my favorite Escape Pod in some time.  I didn't realize until reading this thread that the story takes place in an already established universe (the Pepperverse?) but now I have to find me some more Pepperlore.

One thing I have to comment on:

If other web forums at the moment are anything to go by, this one will descend into a partisan US political sniping match in 5...4...3... 
so i'll get my thoughts in early.

I don't post here an awful lot, but I've read my share of threads going back a few months.  I've read threads where people have had some pretty profound disagreements about politics and society, and compared to other boards this one is extraordinarily civil.  In fact, I've seen posts where individuals realized they were perilously close to crossing The Line, and voluntarily pulled themselves back.

This thread probably isn't the most appropriate place for me to say it, but I am very impressed with this board and the people here.  I've seen too many places online where the regulars can't help themselves from making useless political trash talk that just antagonizes people.

[stePH]

i think Rebecca Romijn has already played Pepper. well, a Pepper.

So has Gwynneth Paltrow.

[wintermute]

i think Rebecca Romijn has already played Pepper. well, a Pepper.

So has Gwynneth Paltrow.

Along with Jason Bateman, Christopher Guest, Angie Dickinson, Ricki Lake, Woody Harrison, Robert Redford, Jason Lee, John Turturro, Sammy Davis Jr, Yasmine Bleeth, and a whole mess of people I've never heard of.

[Zathras]

i think Rebecca Romijn has already played Pepper. well, a Pepper.

So has Gwynneth Paltrow.

Along with Jason Bateman, Christopher Guest, Angie Dickinson, Ricki Lake, Woody Harrison, Robert Redford, Jason Lee, John Turturro, Sammy Davis Jr, Yasmine Bleeth, and a whole mess of people I've never heard of.

Wouldn't you like to be a Pepper, too?

[Anarkey]

This was my favorite Escape Pod in some time.  I didn't realize until reading this thread that the story takes place in an already established universe (the Pepperverse?) but now I have to find me some more Pepperlore.

I'm not sure Buckell's universe has an official label (though I chuckled at "Pepperverse"), but in the books characters refer to it as "The 48 worlds" or sometimes "The 48 worlds of the Satrapy".  There's been a human diaspora, through wormholes, and the 48 worlds were (until recently) under the despotic rule of some aliens known as "Satraps".  At least one of the books has a diagram that looks like a public transport map of the wormholes.  They're great books, really fun to read.  I recommend them.

BTW, one of the books features a working technocratic direct democracy that doesn't give up their vote the way "Haven" does.  So some of the givens that readers are taking away from the story are disproved by other stories in the same universe.  Which I find amusing.  And interesting.  And I STILL think Buckell's politics are oversimplified.  Perhaps I'm just too demanding.

[wintermute]

I'm not sure Buckell's universe has an official label (though I chuckled at "Pepperverse"), but in the books characters refer to it as "The 48 worlds" or sometimes "The 48 worlds of the Satrapy".  There's been a human diaspora, through wormholes, and the 48 worlds were (until recently) under the despotic rule of some aliens known as "Satraps".

Hrm. A satrap was a Persian governor, ruler of a territory but responsible to the King of Persia. But, except in those situations where the King chose to get involved, they were very much of the "absolute monarch" model, with a strong reputation for despotism.

[stePH]

When it comes to voting, I'm with Steve.  He and I may differ wildly when it comes to political stances (my podcast is the East Coast Conservative Podcast, http://www.eastcoastconservative.com - Steve, feel free to remove the shameless plug if you desire) but we both agree on the fact that if people do not VOTE they submit themselves to the will of whoever does VOTE.

I for one will check out your podcast.  I'm always on the lookout for a good political 'cast, particularly one that doesn't necessarily reinforce my somewhat left-of-center POV.  Currently I only subscribe to Dani Cutler's left-leaning "Truth Seekers" and Dan Carlin's firmly nonpartisan "Common Sense".  The few others I've checked out, both left and right, get annoying in a really short time.

[Anarkey]

Hrm. A satrap was a Persian governor, ruler of a territory but responsible to the King of Persia. But, except in those situations where the King chose to get involved, they were very much of the "absolute monarch" model, with a strong reputation for despotism.

Yes.  I think he picked the name deliberately, but I can't really go into why without breaking out major spoilage on the books, so I won't.  Though I will say that I think the label of "Satrap" was human applied (or extracted from humans, perhaps), and not necessarily what the aliens would call themselves among themselves.

[rowshack]

In the end a man saw his world and made a choice those are always the best stories.

[ajames]

Am I the only one who wasn't enthused at all by this story? 

I can't say, but I was less enthused than most others. I definitely enjoyed some of the story elements and for a story that came off (to me at least) as very preachy with lots of info dumps, it still managed to make me think.

And, hey, I want a rain coat like Pepper's. Or trench coat. Or space suit. Or whatever. Very cool.

[Sylvan]

I definitely enjoyed some of the story elements and for a story that came off (to me at least) as very preachy with lots of info dumps, it still managed to make me think.

Yes, the story was preachy but -then again- we're talking meta-politics discussion, here; surely any discussion or story about it is going to come off as "Preachy", right?

But that aside, I'd like to bring up something that's been on my mind for some time, now:  are "info-dumps" always a bad thing?  Especially in short story form, aren't they sometimes a necessity?  And, if they are, what makes a "good info-dump" differ from a "bad info-dump"?

Yours contemplatively,
Sylvan (Dave)

[Corydon]

I definitely enjoyed some of the story elements and for a story that came off (to me at least) as very preachy with lots of info dumps, it still managed to make me think.

Yes, the story was preachy but -then again- we're talking meta-politics discussion, here; surely any discussion or story about it is going to come off as "Preachy", right?

My main beef with the story-- which I found to be pretty weak-- was that it wasn't  a discussion, or really a story, at all.  It was a lecture, or a series of lectures.  That, IMO, is one of the worst traditions of political SF: writers who so badly want to get their point across that they have to put it directly in the mouths of one of their characters.  When, as here, it's on the level of a college sophomore, I just roll my eyes and move on.

(As a side note, the author misses what a panopticon is all about.  Pan says that the point of a panopticon is that the jailer can watch the inmates at all times.  As I understand it, the idea of a panoptic prison is that the prisoners can't know whether or not they're being watched.  As a result, they internalize the mechanism of control, and no central authority ends up being needed.)

My other beef with the story was with Pepper, the trenchcoat-wearing, massive arsenal-carrying (guns! bombs! knives!  he's only missing his kickass katana!), wisdom-spouting mercenary... in other words, the fantasy figure of every Matrix fanboy out there.  That's a cliche that doesn't hold a lot of appeal for me.

[alllie]

Where monsters are a scary story told to children, Pepper is the scary story told to monsters. (a rephrase from Crystal Rain)

[Corydon]

Where monsters are a scary story told to children, Pepper is the scary story told to monsters. (a rephrase from Crystal Rain)

Hmm, I think you mean, "when the bogeyman goes to sleep at night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris Pepper."

[deflective]

i'm sure you both meant, "when the bogeyman goes to sleep at night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris Pepper Susan."

[Zathras]

i'm sure you all meant, "when the bogeyman goes to sleep at night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris Pepper Susan N_sh."

[Zathras]

Listened again.

I've seen this ending before.  It was much better in Escape from L.A.

[ajames]

I definitely enjoyed some of the story elements and for a story that came off (to me at least) as very preachy with lots of info dumps, it still managed to make me think.

Yes, the story was preachy but -then again- we're talking meta-politics discussion, here; surely any discussion or story about it is going to come off as "Preachy", right?

But that aside, I'd like to bring up something that's been on my mind for some time, now:  are "info-dumps" always a bad thing?  Especially in short story form, aren't they sometimes a necessity?  And, if they are, what makes a "good info-dump" differ from a "bad info-dump"?

Yours contemplatively,
Sylvan (Dave)

It might be hard not to be preachy in a meta-political discussion, but I think it can be done.

As for your question about info-dumping, I'd agree info-dumps can sometimes be necessary. I'd start by saying a "good" info dump generally gives you just the information you need, when you need it, and at most provides a pause in the story, rather than halting the story. Even better if the information it provides gives you some insight to a character that perhaps could not be effectively delivered in another way. I think the reason I wasn't very enthused with this story, really, is that the info-dumping WAS the story. Corydon nailed it. I didn't really care about the characters - they were just devices to move the plot political discussion along. I wasn't supposed to see a person when I saw Staniel, I was supposed to see myself, or what could be myself. But even that might have been okay, if I hadn't felt I was being talked down to, by someone oversimplifying politics to a ridiculous degree.

Hmm, maybe I'm closer to petronivs position than I thought.

 

[Sylvan]

As for your question about info-dumping, I'd agree info-dumps can sometimes be necessary. I'd start by saying a "good" info dump generally gives you just the information you need, when you need it, and at most provides a pause in the story, rather than halting the story. Even better if the information it provides gives you some insight to a character that perhaps could not be effectively delivered in another way. I think the reason I wasn't very enthused with this story, really, is that the info-dumping WAS the story. Corydon nailed it. I didn't really care about the characters - they were just devices to move the plot political discussion along.

Very good definition of when it works and when it doesn't.  In this case, I'm a bit different from you in that I wasn't completely disengaged from the characters.  Staniel was slightly interesting to me because I saw a part of me from my old college days in him.  Pepper didn't interest me at all other than the overarching question of "would he betray his contract" ... and that question was really only a one-emotional-note question.

To me, PAN was the most interesting and my engagement in his character made me appreciate the info-dumps a bit more.  In the case of a person who finds the story more about PAN than the human characters, I think the info-dumps are warranted.  In this case, they set up the expectations for what PAN is and serve to set the stage for explaining PAN's eventual temptation of both Pepper and Staniel.

The more I type this, the more interesting I find it.

I think a good corollary to your definition of when info-dumps work would be "when the information that's needed helps the reader to identify with or understand the motivations of a specific, important character."

What do you think?

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)

[ajames]

I think a good corollary to your definition of when info-dumps work would be "when the information that's needed helps the reader to identify with or understand the motivations of a specific, important character."

What do you think?

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)

I agree. 

[eytanz]

So, essentially, this story is proposing that the best way to avoid having all the power in the hand of one man/machine is to give the power to turn it off to another single man?

And yeah, I agree that this was a very thin veil of plot on a political creed. And given that I'm honestly not sure if this story is pro- or anti- democracy, I'm a bit confused as to what the political creed is. That said, it's quite clearly aimed at Americans, and I've stopped trying to understand American politics years ago, so I'm not sure whether my confusion reflects negatively on the story or not.

[ryos]

So, essentially, this story is proposing that the best way to avoid having all the power in the hand of one man/machine is to give the power to turn it off to another single man?

And yeah, I agree that this was a very thin veil of plot on a political creed. And given that I'm honestly not sure if this story is pro- or anti- democracy, I'm a bit confused as to what the political creed is. That said, it's quite clearly aimed at Americans, and I've stopped trying to understand American politics years ago, so I'm not sure whether my confusion reflects negatively on the story or not.

Oddly, while I hate preachy stories and stories with agendas, this felt to me like it kept both to a minimum. I think it's possible to deal with political themes in fiction without crossing the line into advocacy.