Author Topic: EP181: Resistance  (Read 35451 times)

eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #50 on: November 03, 2008, 07:28:33 AM
So, essentially, this story is proposing that the best way to avoid having all the power in the hand of one man/machine is to give the power to turn it off to another single man?

And yeah, I agree that this was a very thin veil of plot on a political creed. And given that I'm honestly not sure if this story is pro- or anti- democracy, I'm a bit confused as to what the political creed is. That said, it's quite clearly aimed at Americans, and I've stopped trying to understand American politics years ago, so I'm not sure whether my confusion reflects negatively on the story or not.

Oddly, while I hate preachy stories and stories with agendas, this felt to me like it kept both to a minimum. I think it's possible to deal with political themes in fiction without crossing the line into advocacy.

I certainly agree that it's possible. But to me, this story felt very preachy. Unfortunately, I do not know what it was preaching. So perhaps it was preaching an empty message - perhaps it did indeed keep the agenda to a minimum, while making meaningless political speeches. If that is the case - if it's not just that I failed to get the message, but that there really isn't one - I don't think it's a point in this story's favor.



Peter Tupper

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 34
Reply #51 on: November 03, 2008, 07:44:52 AM
Good story. I agree there is a human tendency to hand over responsibility to the image of the perfect leader.

The thing is, the efficiency of authoritarian governments (offered by Pan) is often overrated, whether it be waging an effective war effort or providing citizens with essential goods and services. Hitler may have gotten the trains to run on time, but Nazi Germany was also putting out planes with nobody to fly them. Pan's micro-world might run into many problems in the long run (i.e. next months).

The group I help run was deliberately set up with a constitution, bylaws and an elected board of directors with open meetings, instead of the fiat enjoyed by their predecessors. It makes my teeth grind when I think of just how slow things can be, how long it takes to get things decided and to coordinate actions (and that's with phones, email and our own private wiki). But I believe that in the long run this will prove more stable and adaptable and responsive to the community than a organization run on fiat.

I think the siren song of "efficiency in government" has lured a lot of technically-minded people towards authoritarian politics, forgetting that the inefficiencies of democratic government are there for a reason.



Peter Tupper

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 34
Reply #52 on: November 03, 2008, 08:03:40 AM
Pan's psyche, a benevolent dictator built out of a society that idealized democracy, required that 'he' put himself into a situation where he could be destroyed. it seems like providing a system where discontent people could create their own society seems like a better compromise. of course, if Pan was flawed enough to harbor a deathwish it might be best that the society was rebuilt sooner rather than later.

In John Varley's Steel Beach, the Central Computer than runs the human civilization on the moon has a similar problem of the conflicting wishes of the people. It has to be the confidante and aid of both the abused child and the child abuser. Ultimately it collapses and "dies", or at least becomes a much more limited power.



slic

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 727
  • Stephen Lumini
Reply #53 on: November 06, 2008, 12:50:44 AM
Overall it was an interesting idea, but an

For me the story reinforced my general belief that things work best in moderation.  Having everyone vote on everything from sendng delegates to what repair work to do is too much for any large group to handle (I haven't read the other stories, Anarkey, and I'm interested) there is a reason why being a politician is a full time job.  Having a single authoritarian power doesn't work either.  It's the balance - people have to be empowered to make decisions, and held accountable or given credit.

On a small tangent - I really respect the 2 term limit for president - enforcing a fresh set of eyes (well, not exactly, but you know what I mean)



Father Beast

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
Reply #54 on: November 06, 2008, 02:16:22 AM
I wasn't all that enthused with this story at first, since I'm not much into military stuff, and alternate politics can get tedious. (Shoot, my own politics can get tedious).

After a while to reflect, I realized that PAN was basically a self canceling mistake. In a full true democracy, a cybernetic society would naturally lean, sooner or later, to giving over their franchise to bots. Which leads to the creation of PAN. Which then leads to the downfall of PAN, as he then participates in his own demise. If Stanuel hadn't pushed the button, someone was bound to soon, as PAN leads more and more rebels to him for the purpose.

Simply shutting the PAN down and returning the franchise to the people would be ineffective, as they would inevitably do the same thing and create the next PAN.

Only in the way it happened could the people be induced to find another way than what they used to have. And the events of this story were inevitable from the moment these people started their great political experiment.

What really drove PANs suicidal intent home was the timeline. It had been five days since he had taken over.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #55 on: November 06, 2008, 08:04:36 AM
After a while to reflect, I realized that PAN was basically a self canceling mistake. In a full true democracy, a cybernetic society would naturally lean, sooner or later, to giving over their franchise to bots. Which leads to the creation of PAN. Which then leads to the downfall of PAN, as he then participates in his own demise. If Stanuel hadn't pushed the button, someone was bound to soon, as PAN leads more and more rebels to him for the purpose.

Thanks for posting this - it helped crystalize one of the problems I'm having with this story.

I feel that this story is trying to push a set of assumptions on political behavior that are entirely unmotivated. I just can't see why Pan would be a self-correcting mistake.

Pan was supposed to represent the democratic will of the community - most of them really didn't want to live in a democracy, so they didn't. But, the twist was that this was still democratic because it's really what they wanted. But, because not everyone wanted it, there had to be a way out.

But, that's not how democracy works. Democracy works by enforcing the will of the majority while protecting the rights of the minorities. In this story, it was clear that:

1 - Pan didn't protect the rights of anyone. It made things work, but it did so by instituting curfews, severly limiting people's freedom of movement. It was implied that it closed the museums and theaters. People may really harbor a secret desire that some nice leader to take decisions away from them, but an even more basic aspect of human psychology is that they don't want to be inconvenienced.

2 - Pan didn't enforce the will of the majority. It created a situation where the will of the minority (Stanuel) was enforced onto the majority. We know that Stanuel was a minority, since if he represented a majority, Pan would never have come into play.

So, we don't have a democracy here. We have a society that apparently is based on pleasing everyone at once. That's already stupid. But I agree that this society would become disfunctional and probably end up as a self-destructive dictatorship sooner or later.

Quote
What really drove PANs suicidal intent home was the timeline. It had been five days since he had taken over.

Which again made no sense. Five days is not enough time for a Stanuel to rise out of a population. Pan is an AI, maybe it calculates things quickly, but it takes longer to move people from apathy to political activism, let alone political exteremism.

So yeah, I don't buy it. And I also don't buy - though unlike in the things I list above, in this case I don't think the story is being stupid, just wrong - the premise that democracy is powerful enough to be self-correcting, that abberations like Pan will eliminate themselves. That's a dangerous, dangerous message. Democracy has shown itself through the years to be a fragile thing, one that must be maintained with care. Teaching people that if they allow themselves to lose their ability to choose, it's ok, because someone will come and give it back to them in five days - that's a really bad lesson to teach.



Corydon

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Reply #56 on: November 06, 2008, 12:32:19 PM
Interesting points, eytan.  I'm not sure I agree with all your assumptions (e.g. that democracy necessarily protects the rights of minorities; as I look at history, that seems like an added option, not something that's factory standard).  But I do basically agree with your main points, and was troubled by some of the same details that bothered you.  In particular, I was dumbfounded to learn that Stanuel had become radicalized and willing to take up arms in five days.  That just didn't make a lot of sense to me.

My take on the story is a little different: it presents a false choice between a "technodemocracy" (whatever that is) in which everybody votes on everything and a dictatorship, in which only one entity has a say.  But of course real democracies don't work like that: in the real world, decision making is made by a mix of popular referenda, elected officials, and an appointed bureaucracy.  Which does work pretty well, and makes for pretty robust, self-correcting systems.



DKT

  • Friendly Neighborhood
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4980
  • PodCastle is my Co-Pilot
    • Psalms & Hymns & Spiritual Noir
Reply #57 on: November 06, 2008, 04:43:55 PM
Does the story ever explain why this all took place in just five days?  Was there some kind of timeframe or deadline that I missed?


gregbillock

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Reply #58 on: November 09, 2008, 06:22:53 AM
I had a few quibbles with this. All dictators use the propaganda that they're democratically installed. In this case, the machine probably actually believes it itself. Stanuel and Pepper's lack of skepticism about the tale and Pan's interpretation of it is disappointing.

But then again, I think there's an argument to be made that something like Pan would be better at running a complex society than any system discussed in the story. Almost certainly better than the horror of proposition-based governance they'd created, or the anarchy Stanuel chose.



stePH

  • Actually has enough cowbell.
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3906
  • Cool story, bro!
    • Thetatr0n on SoundCloud
Reply #59 on: November 10, 2008, 04:25:04 PM
Not quite sure I really understood the song at the end. I liked it when the drums picked up. I'd have to read the lyrics to get the full impact, I think.

I finished the story, the outro, and the feedback some time ago, and stopped just before the song.  This morning I finally got around to listening to it. 

I needn't have bothered; the song seemed pointless and went on eight minutes longer than it needed to.  Who was it by and what was the title, again?

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


Talia

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2682
  • Muahahahaha
Reply #60 on: November 10, 2008, 10:39:26 PM
Not quite sure I really understood the song at the end. I liked it when the drums picked up. I'd have to read the lyrics to get the full impact, I think.

I finished the story, the outro, and the feedback some time ago, and stopped just before the song.  This morning I finally got around to listening to it. 

I needn't have bothered; the song seemed pointless and went on eight minutes longer than it needed to.  Who was it by and what was the title, again?

Weirdly, I came in here specifically to say just how much I loved the song. I LOVED the song. Absolutely blown away. I found it very poetic and stirring, with a rousing melody. A little haunting. I am definitely going to look into this guy.

The song was "You Be King" by Andy Guthrie.



Ersatz Coffee

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Reply #61 on: November 13, 2008, 12:25:39 AM
I liked this story - made me think a little. Though I think mostly what it made me think about was the various paradoxes and subtleties that it pretty much glossed over.

For instance, this idea that you could theoretically predict people's opinions on political questions by profiling them (or that an AI could). Well, complex systems (like people's minds) just don't work like that - they are by nature unpredictable, no matter how much information you have on prior behaviour. That's what's good and bad about people - they're full of surprises!

Furthermore, because political systems are there to manage fundamentally unpredictable complex societies (and eco-systems), there's never going to be a way of assessing for sure what is the best set of policies. That's why we have democracy: it's a trial-and-error, self-correcting, muddle-along kind of system.

The idea that the benevolent AI dictator had to create a resistance movement to be truly representative is also something that didn't seem fully explored to me. Why does this instability, this chance of revolution, have to be externalised in this way? Why can't it be an instability built-into the AI itself? It would spare a lot of unnecessary damage.

There are some interesting questions around minority-representation in democracies - eg just how much should the majority view be allowed to swamp minority-group interests? And what happens if a minority view on something is proven to be correct, and the broad consensus wrong?

Hmmm, lots of questions here, but not many definitive answers!



McToad

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Reply #62 on: November 13, 2008, 12:41:46 AM
Okay story, fine reading, but I found the story too obviously an author's monologue on democracy & voting so it just didn't work for me.

The characters are flat, the plot artificial, the central conflict contrived and the ending quite unsatisfying because it implies a) the only way to preserve a democracy is to destroy a civilization, and b) that masses of people should be punished for not following the political ideology of a few.  Both ideas are unpleasant and, in my opinion, dead wrong.  Worse, these are expressions of the author's POV rather than conclusions that arise naturally from the story and characters presented.  Next time, just write an essay and post it on an appropriate forum rather than trying to cram a lecture into a story.

I had issues with the logic of the AI ruler.  As the scenario was presented, it seems obvious that a) the 'rules' governing Pan would be updating in real time, thus its decision matrix would always reflect the will of the people (making it no different from the avatars and no different from individuals voting) and b) manual overrides would be in place for any individual who might chooses to vote.  Given these systems, the perception of the AI as a dictator seems terribly farfetched.

Another concept that didn't make sense to me was the idea that an open, universal democracy suddenly shifts to a closed dictatorship.  Even with the layers of tools and facilitators in place, anyone (or any AI) could drill down to the actual budgets, laws, votes and so forth... and see them, and vote on them, or use a well known process to modify them.  Bottom line is that the situation shown does not logically emerge from the starting conditions, again leaving the story feeling like a transparent monologue by the author.


-McToad

Nothing is impossible,
  but few things are probable.


JoeFitz

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Reply #63 on: November 13, 2008, 02:01:39 AM
So...am I truly the only person so far for whom this story was strongly reminscent of The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?

As is usually the case for me, echoes of Heinlein result in indigestion. Suffer the poor author that calls to Heinlein and falls short, as I believe this piece does, but perhaps because it is too subtle by half.

That being said, it was a pretty good piece, and improves the more I think about it.

To me, the decision to "push the button" is too obviously an act of hubris by Stanuel. So much so, that I think it was clear that PAN knew that Stanuel would do this, if he was put in a position to do so.

In addition, the abrupt change of heart for Pepper was a result of PAN's statements that PAN was inevitable with the current system of voting. The electronic representatives would inevitably create another PAN if Pepper used the EMP in the tower. Giving the clearly-not-battle-ready Stanuel an arsenal and the EMP device with advice to storm the tower, with the option of using the EMP but destroying a lot of infrastructure (which I took to mean it would prevent electronic democracy).

I find it very interesting that PAN was not a dictator in the usual sense. PAN did not aspire to power, seize power or even want power. That it took PAN only 5 days to calculate that the solution to the apathy and stagnation was to oppress the people, foment a revolution, and arrange for an EMP device to be brought aboard and placed in the hands of someone "human enough" to use it to destroy the machines that allowed technodemocracy.

Sort of like a Thomas Jefferson GAIA hypothesis of AI.

It's an interesting twist on the off-used "intelligent machines take over" plot - the computers are place in power, realize that humans need to govern themselves and convince humans to take over.

At least it only took 5 days instead of the 7.5 millions of years it took Deep Thought to give the ultimate answer (i.e. stop waiting around for a computer to solve your problems and do something).



Corydon

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Reply #64 on: November 13, 2008, 03:57:43 AM
Say, has anybody read Isaac Asimov's short story "Franchise"?  I haven't, but the premise sounds awfully similar:

Quote
In the future, the United States has converted to an "electronic democracy" where the computer Multivac selects a single person to answer a number of questions. Multivac will then use the answers and other data to determine what the results of an election would be, avoiding the need for an actual election to be held.

You say Multivac, I say PAN...



deflective

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1171
Reply #65 on: November 13, 2008, 03:59:50 AM
i've kinda been wondering about that. why do people say PAN?
it's not an acronym.



Bdoomed

  • Pseudopod Tiger
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5891
  • Mmm. Tiger.
Reply #66 on: November 13, 2008, 05:53:26 AM
i had forgotten about this song, thanks for playing it again Steve! :)
story was great.  talk about a reason to vote, no?

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


wherethewild

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 180
Reply #67 on: November 13, 2008, 09:45:23 AM
I haven't read through all the other comments so I'm probably repeating stuff.

Interesting, though provoking story. A tad preachy but generally it worked well for me. I really enjoyed the five days (FIVE WHOLE DAYS. OMG! LIKE, YOU GUYS, THAT'S JUST, LIKE, FOREVER!) and am glad that there was a reason a highly organised resistance movement sprang up so fast because that didn't make much sense otherwise.

I had a few issues with Pan's reasoning although I'm not sure I could explain myself well enough.... something along the lines of if he's really representing everyone then he wouldn't be repressing free speech and ignoring a particular chunk of his society. How many additional chunks will he ignore in the future? Ahh, I'm not even sure what opinion I should have right now... what exactly is a democratic dictator?

My head hurts. Damn you, EP, for making me think.

The Great N-sh whispers in my ear, and he's talking about you.


Corydon

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Reply #68 on: November 14, 2008, 06:55:35 AM
i've kinda been wondering about that. why do people say PAN?
it's not an acronym.

A good question.  Maybe because there's a tradition of capitalized fictional computer names (HAL being the grandpappy of them all), not all of which are actually acronyms.  Maybe because the uncapitalized "Pan" reminds me of the god (or something you cook with), and seems a little goofy.



csrster

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Reply #69 on: November 14, 2008, 09:43:34 AM
I found this a horribly annoying and preachy little story - if not the worst EP ever then the worst since "Pervert". The shame is that it could have been better if the author had shown the slightest intellectual curiosity in exploring the dilemma of choice between a benevolent dictator and an incompetent democracy.

SF, when it's any good, should be about challenging our preconceptions. That doesn't mean, of course, that SF should knee-jerk reject our preconceptions either; that would be absurd. "Challenging" should mean just that. SF should test our deeply-held prejudices by exposing them to the new possibilities opened up by SF's speculative freedom. This story had none of those qualities. Instead I felt Buckell just invented some cardboard characters and a dull plot he could press into the service of our familiar self-satisfied prejudice in favour of democracy. I support democracy too, but I don't need to be told that that makes me a wonderful person.



wakela

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 779
    • Mr. Wake
Reply #70 on: November 21, 2008, 03:04:04 AM
worst
mercenary
ever



wintermute

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • What Would Batman Do?
Reply #71 on: November 21, 2008, 12:47:17 PM
...into the service of our familiar self-satisfied prejudice in favour of democracy. I support democracy too, but I don't need to be told that that makes me a wonderful person.
Assassinating a democratically-elected leader is not the same as supporting democracy.

Science means that not all dreams can come true


Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #72 on: May 21, 2010, 07:17:32 PM
Didn't care for this one, enough that I stopped about 2/3 through.  Way too pedantic and preachy.

In addition, neither character was in the least bit sympathetic.  The protagonist was self-proclaimed revolutionary with no apparent provocation who lets mercs in the back door with apparently no clue what they're going to do when they get in, and who then proceeds to act as a doormat.  The merc who is apparently unstoppable (to the point that I listened) and has no real distinguishing qualities besides being an invincible merc.

The voting dilemma was interesting for a bit, though I think you'd have to be an idiot to trust a simulation to model your voting processes.  Who could possibly see that ending badly?  *raises hand*