Heradel: in the spotlight (split from Apparitions in Fantasy Discussion)

[stePH]

I guess I should start this by noting, for those of you who have not been in this crack on the surface of the internet long, that I am an Atheist. My username is actually a portmanteau of heretic and infidel, both of which are synonyms for Atheist, so I could be (Atheist)(Atheist)=Atheist². .

Not really on the main topic, but I question your idea of "synonyms for Atheist".

a⋅the⋅ist
   /ˈeɪθiɪst/  [ey-thee-ist]
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

her⋅e⋅tic
   /n. ˈhɛrɪtɪk; adj. ˈhɛrɪtɪk, həˈrɛtɪk/  [n. her-i-tik; adj. her-i-tik, huh-ret-ik]
–noun
1.    a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
2.    Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3.    anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.
–adjective
4.    heretical.

in⋅fi⋅del
   /ˈɪnfɪdl, -ˌdɛl/  [in-fi-dl, -del]
–noun
1.    Religion.
   a.    a person who does not accept a particular faith, esp. Christianity.
   b.    (in Christian use) an unbeliever, esp. a Muslim.
   c.    (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.
2.    a person who has no religious faith; unbeliever.
3.    (loosely) a person who disbelieves or doubts a particular theory, belief, creed, etc.; skeptic.
–adjective
4.    not accepting a particular faith, esp. Christianity or Islam; heathen.
5.    without religious faith.
6.    due to or manifesting unbelief: infidel ideas.
7.    rejecting the Christian religion while accepting no other; not believing in the Bible or any Christian divine revelation.
8.    Also, in⋅fi⋅del⋅ic  /ˌɪnfɪˈdɛlɪk/  [in-fi-del-ik] . of, pertaining to, or characteristic of unbelievers or infidels.

So one definition of "heretic" or "infidel" can be loosely interpreted as synonymous with "atheist" but each word has other connotations that have little-or-nothing to do with disbelief in gods.

[Heradel]

I used Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus, which has Atheist listed under both.

[Raving_Lunatic]

I thought heretic was one who didn't believe in your personal religion, whereas atheist is one who has no religion.

[Heradel]

Not to get too bogged down in the language, but I think it's fair to say that the labels heretic and infidel fairly apply to atheists in religious societies, and atheists have applied both to themselves as badges of honor (eg., 'taking it back').

With heretic v. atheist, the New Oxford American Dictionary defines heretic as:
heretic |ˈherətik|
noun
a person believing in or practicing religious heresy.
• a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.
And Atheism as:
atheism |ˈāθēˌizəm|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist.

So given the set of all heretics practicing heresy, I'm sure the set of all atheists fits well within the set of heretics. Can you be a heretic without being an atheist? Yes. But all atheists are heretics.

[Bdoomed]

and thus ends the "attack Heradel's name thread"

i thought this was about Apparitions haha, please stay on some semblence of topic, this isn't Gallimaufry

in fact....
split! moved.

as you were, gentlemen.

[Corydon]

In a religious context (as opposed to a looser metaphorical one, e.g. if I call somebody on this board a "heretic" for, say, hating podcasts), "heretic" has a specific meaning.  It's somebody who has made a choice (hairesis) to break away from a specific religious orthodoxy and become a member of a sect (also a hairesis in later Greek).  A heretic still believes in a religious doctrine, just not one that lines up with the official dictates of the original religion.  So, for example, a Catholic who rejects transubstantiation is a Catholic heretic.  But if that Catholic rejects Christianity in all its aspects, he isn't a heretic, he's an unbeliever.

Another way of thinking about it is that while atheism is directed towards all religions (the atheist believes in none of them), heresy is directed towards a particular religion.  So you can't be a Catholic heretic and a Shi'ite heretic at the same time: they're mutually exclusive.  And an atheist isn't a heretic, because he isn't part of any religious tradition.  He is, however, a pretty serious unbeliever: that is, an infidel.

[Zathras]

So where do the Agnostics fit in?

[Bdoomed]

they are atheistic heretics

[Zathras]

they are atheistic heretics

So I'm an Unorthodox Heritical Atheist then?

[Russell Nash]

Corydon,  You're holding to one definition of the word and not the one Heradel was using.  As Heradel said all atheists are heretics, but not all heretics are atheists.  To say that heretic is a synonym of atheist is to use a less common definition, but it's not wrong.

[Corydon]

Corydon,  You're holding to one definition of the word and not the one Heradel was using.  As Heradel said all atheists are heretics, but not all heretics are atheists.  To say that heretic is a synonym of atheist is to use a less common definition, but it's not wrong.

Dictionaries aren't like menus; you can't just ignore context and pick the definition that you like best.  That's why good dictionaries (like the OED, at the top) have lots of examples of how a definition is used.  The definition of "heretic" Heradel selected ("somebody who is at odds with generally accepted opinion") doesn't describe a heretic in a religious context; it's set against that definition, in fact.  It's a metaphorical heretic: for example, a scientist who doesn't believe that HIV causes AIDS.  Or, as I said in my post, an EA poster who hates podcasting.  But in a religious context, the word "heretic" has a specific meaning: it's somebody who rejects orthodoxy but remains part of a particular religious tradition.

[Russell Nash]

Corydon,  You're holding to one definition of the word and not the one Heradel was using.  As Heradel said all atheists are heretics, but not all heretics are atheists.  To say that heretic is a synonym of atheist is to use a less common definition, but it's not wrong.

Dictionaries aren't like menus; you can't just ignore context and pick the definition that you like best.  That's why good dictionaries (like the OED, at the top) have lots of examples of how a definition is used.  The definition of "heretic" Heradel selected ("somebody who is at odds with generally accepted opinion") doesn't describe a heretic in a religious context; it's set against that definition, in fact.  It's a metaphorical heretic: for example, a scientist who doesn't believe that HIV causes AIDS.  Or, as I said in my post, an EA poster who hates podcasting.  But in a religious context, the word "heretic" has a specific meaning: it's somebody who rejects orthodoxy but remains part of a particular religious tradition.

When words have four definitions it means there are four meanings for the word.  That means you can use the word in four different ways.

The first entry at dictionary.com has three definitions:

• a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
• Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
• anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.
  

This is a menu of definitions.  Writers are allowed to pick the one that fits their need.  You hold viciously to the first and allow for the third.  The second however fits Heradel very well.  He is a recovering Catholic, who rejects every single article of the faith.

[Corydon]

The first entry at dictionary.com has three definitions:

• a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
• Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
• anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.
  

This is a menu of definitions.  Writers are allowed to pick the one that fits their need.  You hold viciously to the first and allow for the third.  The second however fits Heradel very well.  He is a recovering Catholic, who rejects every single article of the faith.

"Viciously"?  That's a little harsh, don't you think? 

Well, whatevs, let's go with your example.  The key part of dictionary.com's second definition is "a baptized Roman Catholic who rejects..."  It's not "anybody who rejects..."  That is, it's somebody who still considers themselves Catholic, while rejecting one or more aspects of Catholic orthodoxy.  Heradel, on the other hand, is an ex-Catholic, who rejects Catholicism (and Christianity, and all religion) utterly.  The Catholic Encyclopedia says about such a person:

Heresy differs from apostasy. The apostate  a fide abandons wholly the faith of Christ either by embracing Judaism, Islamism, Paganism, or simply by falling into naturalism and complete neglect of religion; the heretic always retains faith in Christ.

That sounds like it describes Heradel pretty well.  And it fits neatly with that second dictionary.com definition.  So it seems that according to both dictionary.com's definition, and the official Catholic definition, Heradel isn't a heretic, he's an apostate.

[Russell Nash]

"Viciously"?  That's a little harsh, don't you think? 

Is tenaciously better?

Well, whatevs, let's go with your example.  The key part of dictionary.com's second definition is "a baptized Roman Catholic who rejects..."  It's not "anybody who rejects..."  That is, it's somebody who still considers themselves Catholic, while rejecting one or more aspects of Catholic orthodoxy.  Heradel, on the other hand, is an ex-Catholic, who rejects Catholicism (and Christianity, and all religion) utterly.  The Catholic Encyclopedia says about such a person:

Heresy differs from apostasy. The apostate  a fide abandons wholly the faith of Christ either by embracing Judaism, Islamism, Paganism, or simply by falling into naturalism and complete neglect of religion; the heretic always retains faith in Christ.

That sounds like it describes Heradel pretty well.  And it fits neatly with that second dictionary.com definition.  So it seems that according to both dictionary.com's definition, and the official Catholic definition, Heradel isn't a heretic, he's an apostate.

That supports definition 1 and 2, but doesn't tell us that the use of heretic to mean a total non-believer is wrong in all circles.  It just tells us that the church has its own definition for splitting hairs. 

As a personal note, I have a serious problem accepting any definition put forward by the church, since they have the longest history of rewriting language, positions (theological and otherwise), and history known to man.

[Zathras]

Dictionaries aren't like menus

There is also a bit of disparity from onje dictionary to another.

Of course, that depends on what the definition of "is" is.   

[Bdoomed]

ummm
you guys are forgetting that he combines his name with infidel, which strengthens the atheistic/nonbeliever/nonconformist aspect of heretic.

[Corydon]

"Viciously"?  That's a little harsh, don't you think? 

Is tenaciously better?

Sure! 

That supports definition 1 and 2, but doesn't tell us that the use of heretic to mean a total non-believer is wrong in all circles.  It just tells us that the church has its own definition for splitting hairs. 

As a personal note, I have a serious problem accepting any definition put forward by the church, since they have the longest history of rewriting language, positions (theological and otherwise), and history known to man.

I don't know about the Catholic church's history of rewriting.  But this definition doesn't strike me as splitting hairs: rather, it's pretty clear and simple.  And for what it's worth, it lines up with the (presumably religiously-neutral) definition at Wikipedia.

[Zathras]

You should check out the last 10 minutes of this week's Wait! Wait! Don't Tell Me.

[Heradel]

You should check out the last 10 minutes of this week's Wait! Wait! Don't Tell Me.

Assuming this is directly my way, I'll look for it in my podcast feeds — Seems like they usually release it around 6pm Sunday.