Author Topic: Yet another reason to depend on yourself  (Read 15062 times)

Zathras

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on: August 23, 2009, 10:53:07 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090823/ap_on_go_ot/us_social_security_smaller_checks

This is why I have my own retirement plan.  The math for social security does not work.  There is no savings account, merely a bunch of IOUs.  This is another reason not to put your well being in the hands of the government.



Heradel

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Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 12:58:18 AM
Pardon, but the reason the payments are going down is because of tax shortfalls due to the Great Recession, which private enterprise got itself into by heavily lobbying against government intervention in the markets. This could be solved partially by greater taxes (for example, the top tax bracket was 70pc until about 30 years ago), and probably will need to be, as we're better at keeping old people alive longer, so the population of old people is evening with young people who are working and paying into the system (see here.


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Zathras

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Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 01:08:09 AM
I did not bring this up as a pro/con on taxes.

My point is that you CANNOT count on the government to provide for you.  When you do that you give up all control.

The taxes are another issue entirely and we will never see eye to eye.  One of the problems that caused the "Great Recession" is people buying houses who couldn't afford them.  Let's see who was pressuring banks to lend to these people.   Wait, I'll remember.  That's right, it was the government.



Zathras

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Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 01:34:03 AM
Oh, and I can teach anyone that can pass a DOT physical to do what I do, if they want it bad enough.  I'm talking about trucking here, not my other businesses.  Within 3 years I could have someone in their own paid for truck.  But it's hard work.  Anybody that is interested can feel free to contact me.



Heradel

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Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 02:58:06 AM
I did not bring this up as a pro/con on taxes.

My point is that you CANNOT count on the government to provide for you.  When you do that you give up all control.

The taxes are another issue entirely and we will never see eye to eye.  One of the problems that caused the "Great Recession" is people buying houses who couldn't afford them.  Let's see who was pressuring banks to lend to these people.   Wait, I'll remember.  That's right, it was the government.

And you're not giving up control to the private enterprise? When private pension funds fail, the PBGC steps in. If you have it liquid in banks, then it's FDIC.

On the housing market - yes, people bought houses that shouldn't have, and the government did press for it. But the creation of the system that allowed for so many houses to be bought was private, when banks started packaging mortgages and selling them so they no longer took the time to do due diligence on who they were giving money to.

I'm not saying government always does a great job, but when it's being run by people that believe government can do a good job (not R's), it can work. The public school system has educated millions, and the GI bill led to American prosperity after the war. The Stimpak has shallowed the recession. the Clean Air Act's cap-and-trade system drastically reduced Hg, SO2, and NOX. Medicare and Medicaid have troubles that need to be corrected, but they are a great force for good. Private enterprise can be as well, but without regulation as often as not it leads to Objectivist horrors.

But it doesn't work well when it's hamstrung by years of budget cuts and deficit producing tax-cuts. People seem to forget the last Democratic president left us with a surplus.

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Zathras

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Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 06:15:46 AM
First off, I'm not an "R" or a "D". 

I won't put my faith in a government, union or other group to take care of me.  I am a grown man.  I am capable.  I don't have my hand out begging.

What gives you the right to the fruits of my labor and sacrifice?

If you have a tribe where 10% of the population does the hunting while the other 90% sit around the campfire, yet everyone shares equally in the food, eventually the hunters lose.  As time goes by there are less hunters.  Why go out and track down game when you can sit around the fire and get just as much food as everyone else?

Why punish success?  Why am I greedy for working 80+ hours per week when someone else gets a government handout?  Why should I continue to work 80+ hours when I won't get to keep half of what I earn?

For that matter, why should I hire anyone?  I'm hiring someone in September.  I plan on hiring at least 5 more people before April.  Why should I take on the extra risk involved and get hardly any benefit?

Please, answer those questions.

As I said previously, I did not bring up the subject of taxes, as people already have their minds made up.  Keep Social Security, I don't care.  Hell, let me pay in 3/4 of what I am now and I'll opt out.  I'll do better with the 25% than the government will with 75%.  But don't count solely on it.  Put forth some effort on your own. 

Take some responsibility for your own existence.  We 10% have broad shoulders, but eventually there is more than we can carry.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 06:42:03 AM by Zorag »



Russell Nash

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Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 08:09:44 AM
SS was never meant to give a wonderful retirement.  It was first brought about to provide a safety net for the wives and children of miners, who were dying in droves.  Miners were normally paid in company script, which was worthless outside of the company town.  When a miner died, the company would bring his body, wrapped in a blanket, back to his wife who was living in a company house.  They would knock on the door, dump the body on the porch, and TAKE THE BLANKET WITH THEM.  She would then have about three days to move out.  Because they were only paid in script, she had no savings.  SS started as a way to keep those families from starving to death. 

It then expanded to providing for workers for the few years from retirement to death.  Once again not in style.  it's subsistence money.  If you worked hard for 40+ years and paid for a house, this little help would let you keep the house.  It was never intended to be enough for people to live the high life, and it still isn't.  SS is intended to keep the poorest from living on the street and to augment the savings of the more well off. 

Living on SS or on welfare sucks.  It means never having enough.  Reagan's welfare queen was a lie.  People are not living the high life on welfare.  (In any system there are the crooks who steal and they should be hunted down, but they are not the norm.)    AND that's the way it should be.  If they had a cushy life, Zorag is right, they wouldn't work.

The fruit of Zorag's labor goes to people without jobs.  Why should it?  Simple answer is his quality of life.  There is a limit to how many people the economy can put to work.  What do we do with the rest?  We throw them on the streets?  Sure, some of them will just do the right thing and die, and then we won't have to worry about them.  But some of them will decide that if they can't earn it or get it from the government, they take it more directly.  What do we do about them?  More police? More jails?  That's all really expensive too. 

Germany started a system a while back to deal with this.  The benefits here have always been generous, but the workers were also well paid and taken care of.  Since the collapse of the East, this has changed a bit.  In many areas there just isn't anymore work.  The situation became: pay people to sit and drink beer; cut benefits, so people will work harder to be able to afford beer again; or make them work for their benefits.  Germany went with choice three.  It's a work in progress, but so far I like the results. 

People get enough for a relatively comfortable live, but they have to work for it.  A friend of mine is the best example.  He kind of always planned on being a manual labor kind of guy.  With the big influx of workers from the East, there weren't enough of these types of jobs.  He did some customer service stuff and really wasn't getting anywhere.  Then the company went out of business and he went on welfare.  He had to work 20 hours a week for the government.  He had a book to take to every job interview.  At each interview they would stamp his book.  Not enough stamps = cut benefits.  He then started going to school for IT.  After three years,  he qualified and got a job.  He now has a much better job then he ever would have had before and is in a much higher tax bracket.  His increase in taxes will cover his expense to the government and then "make" the government money.  Win, win.  It has worked out very much like the original GI Bill worked out for the States.

I saw a lost dog on saturday (he was crossing a street alone that no dog owner would have let their dog near).  We tried to check him for tags and get him home, but he was too scared.  Why did I waste 20 minutes trying to help a dog I didn't know?  Because I hope someone would try to take help my dog if she needed it.  Why do I let my taxes be used to help people?  Because if something happens to my family, I hope they'll help me. 

Also my kids will be riding alone on public transportation when they're around 9 or 10 and will be riding it late at night when they're around 14.  Mostly because of the welfare and health systems there's no need for people to steal.  Because of that my kids are very safe even in a city of four million.  My taxes also pay for that safety.



Zathras

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Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 02:19:06 PM
Russel, I don't really mind paying some taxes.  It's when it gets close to, or over, 50% that I really get angry.  I help people voluntarlily all the time.  Last week there was a guy that was out of gas at a truck stop, with a sign asking for $5 for gas.  Did I give him $5?  No.  I told him to pull his pick up around to the pumps and I filled it up.  I'll help people, but I want to know that my help goes where it's supposed to.  So I'm not selfish.

Your points on SS are right on the mark.  Too many people, my mother included, plan on retiring on SS.  I'll be supporting my mom because of this.  I'm not mad at her because I'll be supporting her, but it does upset me that her only plan for retirement was accepting whatever the government would give.

Tying welfare benefits to work or schooling is great.  I support that.  Helping people that are disabled is great.  Just because you're disabled does not necessarily mean you are incapable of doing anything.  Offer the benefits, give some room for people to make some extra money and then once they've passed a certain income, lower their benefits by .25 for every $1.00 they make over the cap.  This encourages people to improve their lives without taking away the support they need.

And my offer to help anyone get their own trucking business rolling still stands.  Of course, you have to be a US or Canadian citizen, and able to pass a physical.  If you've got a felony record or a DUI, it will be harder, but still possible.  My fee?  You have to work hard.  Don't waste my time if you're not going to put the effort in.  The other thing I'd ask is that you Pay It Froward and help other people.

So you see, my problem is not with helping others.  My issues are with government control and personal responsibility.



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Reply #8 on: August 24, 2009, 03:47:44 PM
Sure, some of them will just do the right thing and die, and then we won't have to worry about them.

Honestly, did you really have to go there?  Do you really feel this was Zorag's point?  Who's the moderator here?

Russell's statement here demonstrates the current state of political discussion.  You don't want the ever increasing taxes, then you want people to die.  You disagree with Obama about health care, then you want people to die.  You question the morality of abortions for convenience, then you want women gutted with rusty coat hangers. How do you carry on a discussion with that kind of a response?  (No, I don't want to discuss each of these issues, I'm just citing examples that I have experienced.)  Everybody accuses conservatives of escalating all the issues (which they often do), but it is a well bred tactic of liberals as well.

The sad thing is that Russell and Zorag essentially agree on Social Security, which is what Zorag began the discussion about.

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Heradel

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Reply #9 on: August 24, 2009, 04:03:07 PM
First off, I'm not an "R" or a "D". 

I won't put my faith in a government, union or other group to take care of me.  I am a grown man.  I am capable.  I don't have my hand out begging.

What gives you the right to the fruits of my labor and sacrifice?

If you have a tribe where 10% of the population does the hunting while the other 90% sit around the campfire, yet everyone shares equally in the food, eventually the hunters lose.  As time goes by there are less hunters.  Why go out and track down game when you can sit around the fire and get just as much food as everyone else?

Why punish success?  Why am I greedy for working 80+ hours per week when someone else gets a government handout?  Why should I continue to work 80+ hours when I won't get to keep half of what I earn?

For that matter, why should I hire anyone?  I'm hiring someone in September.  I plan on hiring at least 5 more people before April.  Why should I take on the extra risk involved and get hardly any benefit?

Please, answer those questions.

Because it's not punishing success. It can feel Marxist (from each/to each), but progressive taxation is the only fair way to go about providing for a modern society. For example, you're a trucker, would you really want to operate without the interstate highway system?

Your views do fit somewhat neatly into libertarianism from what I've seen, which used to be a tentpole for the Republicans but have increasingly been splitting off into their own groups (eg, Ron Paul). Libertarianism always seems to fail to account for the fact that private industry has effects that are not accounted for by a free market, and that government is needed as a regulator and to enable innovation.

In terms of Social Security, it makes it so that small employers don't have to go off on their own to provide pension plans, though obviously they should. Similar arguments have been made about health care - the lack of a government system has prevented investment in the US because it's too costly to insure in the US's fairly regionally monopolistic markets.

Yes, the lack of a cost of living adjustment is going to suck for those on it. Luckily inflation has been low to nil and the cost of living is relatively flat with last year because the energy markets collapsed.

In terms of the tribe example, you ignore a perfectly valid third possibility, that the 10% of tribe that's hunting has freed up the capacity of the other 90% to do something else useful. They could be making tools, engaged in agriculture or childcare, or inventing improvements to existing stone-age technology (Flint Axe, now chipped with Granite Rock for extra sharpness when spear stick hard). Overall, people tend to be productive. A small, small minority isn't, but the vast majority is, and that's who you plan for. Just because they're not hunting doesn't mean they're not being useful. Without hunters and meat being able to free up the time and resources for a lot of the rest of the tribe human civilization wouldn't have happened.

The government derives its right to your useful output via the general welfare clause and several others in the constitution, including the 16th Amendment. I don't have the right to your output, but collectively we all derive various protections and benefits from the federal government that wouldn't be possible without income taxes. Civil society wouldn't work well without them, which is why you see countries with weak federal systems failing or being overrun by parochial interests (not that ours doesn't suffer from the same ailments).

Quote
As I said previously, I did not bring up the subject of taxes, as people already have their minds made up.  Keep Social Security, I don't care.  Hell, let me pay in 3/4 of what I am now and I'll opt out.  I'll do better with the 25% than the government will with 75%.  But don't count solely on it.  Put forth some effort on your own. 

Take some responsibility for your own existence.  We 10% have broad shoulders, but eventually there is more than we can carry.

Saying that taxes shouldn't be brought up in a discussion of Social Security is like saying that Space Shuttles and Rockets shouldn't be brought up in a discussion of interstellar travel. The point of Social Security, like Russell said, is that it's a safety net when all else fails. Bad things happen. People invest all their money with Bernie Madoff and go from a comfortable existence to nothing. Large medical bills pile up and wipe out savings.

You can already opt out of Social Security by returning any checks you get from the government once you get that old. However, the point of a safety net is that it's there when everything goes wahooni-shaped, so you can't opt out of paying the taxes because 20-30 years down the road you might find yourself in dire need of it. It's an insurance policy as much as a pension system, and it's there when private savings run out because you've lived longer than you budgeted for.  

Quote
Russel, I don't really mind paying some taxes.  It's when it gets close to, or over, 50% that I really get angry.  I help people voluntarlily all the time.

Which is why donations made to various groups are tax-exempt, to encourage that kind of behavior. I don't think there's a tax bracket in the US right now that is 50%, but historically they've gone higher than that and the country hasn't collapsed.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 04:10:11 PM by Heradel »

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Zathras

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Reply #10 on: August 24, 2009, 04:45:45 PM
Tax deductions are not tax credits.  Once EA is a non-profit, if I give them $1000, my taxes do not go down by $1000, my income does.

For a self employed individual living in California who makes an adjusted gross income of $100,000, the tax rate is already at 52.8% (28% federal, 9.5% state and 15.3% FICA).  If you work for someone else, the employer pays half of the FICA, which is that much less that they could pay you, but your effective rate would be 45.15%.

That number is before sales tax, property tax, licensing fees for vehicles and any municipality taxes.

But let's move it to Illinois, where I live.  The same individual would pay only 46.3%, as Illinois's tax rate is 3%.

As a truck driver (I am not a trucker), I pay no additional taxes to operate in any state.  However, as a truck owner, I pay 18.4 cents per gallon to the federal government and the average of state fuel taxes is 24.59 cents per gallon.  I also pay $550 per year per truck, IRS Form 2290.  I have to pay permits for the privilege to conduct Interstate Commerce.  These start at about $250 per year but go up dramatically if I wish to haul alcohol, hazardous materials or oversize loads.  I pay a Federal Excise Tax (FET) on every new truck or tire I buy. 

I pay sales tax on my purchases.  I pay telecommunications tax for each of my phone lines.  I pay capital gains tax if I make money on an investment.

I am heavily taxed already.


If you read the article I posted, you would see that the reason there is no increase in SS is that the COLA has gone down, not because tax rates didn't increase.  The reason SS checks will go down is that there is no law prohibiting increases in Medicaid/Medicare deductions, while there is a law that prevents SS benefits from decreasing.



Zathras

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Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 05:44:56 PM
From the Social Security Administration's web page:

Quote
Social Security is the major source of income for most of the elderly.

    * Nine out of ten individuals age 65 and older receive Social Security benefits.
    * Social Security benefits represent about 40% of the income of the elderly.
    * Among elderly Social Security beneficiaries, 52% of married couples and 72% of unmarried persons receive 50% or more of their income from Social Security.
    * Among elderly Social Security beneficiaries, 20% of married couples and about 41% of unmarried persons rely on Social Security for 90% or more of their income.

Again, my point in this thread is that you cannot count on SS.  If it is your sole income, you did something wrong.  The demographics on this forum skew way young.  Start planning for your retirement now. 

I meant for the initial post to be cautionary, but my political views colored it.

Things that every individual should have:

A will.
Term life insurance.  (Don't use life insurance as an investment.  Term is very cheap, take the extra money and put it in a real investment.)
Long term and short term disability insurance.
If you're over the age of 55, you should be looking into long term care insurance (nursing home insurance).
An emergency fund of 3 to 6 months of expenses.



Heradel

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Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 09:13:22 PM
On taxes - we can argue how high they are from place to place, but regardless they're historically low compared to the midcentury and after, and will need to be raised after the recession in order for the US to start paying down the federal deficit. Taxes right now are too low because of the Bush administration tax cut fetish.

On gas taxes - Do you really want to be driving on dirt roads? The interstate and state highway systems aren't cheap, and the gas tax pays for them. The current gas tax is actually insufficient in the long term to maintain the roads because of the increased efficiency of vehicles leading to decreased demand, which is why congress had to pass an emergency SAFETEA-LU [Highway Bill, I'm not kidding, that's the name] extension before the August recess.

Again, my point in this thread is that you cannot count on SS.  If it is your sole income, you did something wrong.  The demographics on this forum skew way young.  Start planning for your retirement now. 

I almost agree with this, except for the fact that you can do nothing wrong and still end up on Social Security. Financial disasters happen. People lose everything in the stock market or in medical bills. Being on Social Security alone is not in and of itself shameful because bad things happen to good people who thought their plans would work.

I think my main problem with your argument is that you appear to be missing the fact that most of what you're talking about has government backstops at some point, or has government regulations which make it a safer investment or insurance policy. Your ability to save and plan for a retirement and have some measure of security is helped, not hurt by the government. You can invest in the stock market and have some measure of security because of Federal regulators forcing S-1 filings and more from public companies, and going after companies operating in bad faith.

Social Security has cashflow problems, and those will likely be addressed by some combination of tax hikes and possibly benefit cuts. But it's going to be propped up, and

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Zathras

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Reply #13 on: August 24, 2009, 09:24:08 PM
I once was accused of not listening to any idea that didn't fit my world view, by a moderator on this forum.  I have to respectfully say that I believe that applies to Heradel and I will stop wasting my time.



Russell Nash

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Reply #14 on: August 24, 2009, 09:25:27 PM
Sure, some of them will just do the right thing and die, and then we won't have to worry about them.

Honestly, did you really have to go there?  Do you really feel this was Zorag's point?  Who's the moderator here?


This was supposed to be more irony and sarcasm than vitriol.  I guess next time I should use my [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags.

Zorag, I'd like to point out in your tax list that you pay many taxes that most of us don't.  They're user taxes.  

You drive more than I do and your truck causes more wear than my Volvo.  Therefore you pay more in the taxes that are supposed to pay for the roads.  I say supposed to, because many states siphon off parts of the gas taxes for other uses.  But the Federal highway money given to the states comes out of federal income taxes, and you benefit from a far bigger part of that than the average taxpayer.  

Trucks cost more to regulate (weigh stations come to mind) than normal vehicles, therefore the registration expense is greater.  There's no reason why general tax money should be used for that (even though it normally is), because non-drivers shouldn't have to subsidize the folks who won't ride a bike.  Yes, I realize in many areas the various vehicle taxes help support mass transit.  

Before I go even further with this, I'm going to throw out one little point.  I pay so much more than an American living in the States and that is one of the reasons I don't plan on ever moving back.  In other words: I pay higher taxes for everything and I like it!

  • Gas tax is about 80 cents from every Euro.  That's about a 400% tax.  It's about $5.60/gallon right now.
  • Sales tax is 19%.
  • Income tax is about 38%.  Finally a break.
  • Car registration is $250/year.  That is the lower class way got moved into when we put pollution reduction equipment on our car.
  • Dog License is $14/month!

The list goes on and on, but it has it's benefits.

Nobody I know here…
  • will ever lose their savings paying for healthcare.
  • has ever been mugged.
  • has been/will ever be homeless.
  • will need to mortgage their house or go into their savings to pay for their/their kid's college education.

That list also goes on and on.  Yes, I don't have the 90 inch TV I want, but I think this list is worth it.



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Reply #15 on: August 24, 2009, 09:31:17 PM
But it's going to be propped up, and

Hmm, Heradel's post ended rather abruptly.. I suspect Zorag's involvement..

did you send thugs after him?? ;)



Zathras

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Reply #16 on: August 24, 2009, 09:38:37 PM
You are making some of my arguments for me.  The misappropriation of funds is horrible.  

I did not say my taxes paid for the truck were unfair.   I merely stated that I pay them.  

The argument for health care is that those that don't need the government help should pay for it anyway.  Same goes for the roads, even for the people who don't directly use it.  You cannot say that the trucking industry is not essential for the commerce of the United States.  

The environmental standards that people are pushing for on trucks sound great, until you learn that the reduced pollution, measured in parts per million (ppm) actually decreases fuel efficiency.  The same work that was done by a 12.7 liter motor now requires a 14 liter motor to overcome the environmental add-ons.  Fuel efficiency for a 2004 or newer motor is roughly 85% that of a 2003 motor.  Statistics siting improved fuel economy in trucks are largely due to more aerodynamic trucks and lower rolling resistance tires.


I only know one person that has ever been mugged, to my knowledge.  That was only an attempted mugging, and it happened to me.  His victim selection process needed some work.


I am 100% for a use tax.  As a matter of fact, I support a Fair Tax.

Look, how about I give half of what I make to the government and then they leave me alone?  I'd sign up for that.





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Reply #17 on: August 25, 2009, 12:12:44 AM
I won't put my faith in a government, union or other group to take care of me.  I am a grown man.  I am capable.  I don't have my hand out begging.

What gives you the right to the fruits of my labor and sacrifice?

If you have a tribe where 10% of the population does the hunting while the other 90% sit around the campfire, yet everyone shares equally in the food, eventually the hunters lose.  As time goes by there are less hunters.  Why go out and track down game when you can sit around the fire and get just as much food as everyone else?

Yes, I've read Atlas Shrugged as well.  :P

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Heradel

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Reply #18 on: August 25, 2009, 12:31:38 AM
I once was accused of not listening to any idea that didn't fit my world view, by a moderator on this forum.  I have to respectfully say that I believe that applies to Heradel and I will stop wasting my time.

If the idea is that of a flat tax, or that taxes are too high - then I've already addressed those. I haven't really talked about a fair tax (really just a branded name for a consumption tax). Your other points were towards not trusting or depending on a government program, which I also addressed. I also answered your argument about the hunter society - you didn't respond to that answer. I also answered your declaiming of an 'R' or 'D' label by identifying your political philosophy as being libertarian, which you never really addressed. You could argue that I used that identification to build libertarianism as a straw man to attack your position, but you haven't. You brought up consumption taxes, which I responded with the gas tax example and then Russell built on. I didn't really respond to the tax deduction thing, but I didn't see a need to quibble - yes, it just lowers income, but the government is still rewarding charity.

Let me digress on flat taxes for a minute - they're really not fair. First off, states and localities have their own taxation systems, and you'd seriously would federalism if you started messing with that. Secondly, most systems exempt people making under such and such amount, which is fine and proper, until you run into the first tax bracket which gets hit by the tax, which is going to be more than they would probably pay under a progressive system. The tax gains at the lower end of the spectrum do not make up for the tax losses one gets at the higher end, and it becomes a back door method of cutting taxes for the rich and shifting more of the burden to the middle class. For the heck of it, here's a chart of the top federal income tax bracket for the last century or so:
Like I said, historically low. From the New Deal to Reagan we had high marginal progressive income taxes, strong labor unions, high minimum wages, well regulated financial institutions, and some of the greatest sustained growth the country's ever seen. You can't argue that a flat tax would be better for the country, because the lowest dips on that chart coincide with the onset of the Great Depression and the recession during the early 90s. You can argue that lower taxation leads to more capital being able to be used in a more efficient private market, but there's not a lot of data to support that that helps the country as a whole raise it's living standard. A lot of basic government research has led to a lot of important innovations, and these days the government and drug companies are almost the only groups sponsoring basic research.

The only place that actually has a flat tax that I'd want to live in is Iceland, and they also have a lot of deductions, a VAT, Wealth Tax, and corporate income tax. They're also an economic basket case relying on the IMF to remain solvent, so~.

On the Fair Tax proposal - Personally I think it's a long way to go to try to get to a Wealth tax, and asking poor people to submit to some sort of government program that monitors all of their purchases seems overly orwellian. And you have to disburse the funds at even intervals during the year or come up with a system that exempts them at the cash register and which doesn't lead to massive fraud.  Doing an average rebate of earning power lost seems like it would mess with large one off purchases. It also would require some pretty heavy import duties, which you need WTO approval for. It also makes it more difficult for the government to implement incentives for certain kinds of spending, and has the slight issue of a lack of empirical data. Factcheck.org did a pretty good dissection when it came up back in '07: http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

I think I've responded to your ideas, I've just not found them particularly convincing. I have been reading them.


But it's going to be propped up, and
Hmm, Heradel's post ended rather abruptly.. I suspect Zorag's involvement..

did you send thugs after him?? ;)

I was writing somewhat too quickly while trying to leave work. I would have ended it by saying something along the lines of — benefits may end up being decreased in the future, but it's more likely that the minimum age will be raised for future generations who are expected to live longer. Unless, of course, Kurzweil turns out to be right and we're all silicon at that point.

You are making some of my arguments for me.  The misappropriation of funds is horrible.  

I did not say my taxes paid for the truck were unfair.   I merely stated that I pay them.  

The argument for health care is that those that don't need the government help should pay for it anyway.  Same goes for the roads, even for the people who don't directly use it.  You cannot say that the trucking industry is not essential for the commerce of the United States.  

The environmental standards that people are pushing for on trucks sound great, until you learn that the reduced pollution, measured in parts per million (ppm) actually decreases fuel efficiency.  The same work that was done by a 12.7 liter motor now requires a 14 liter motor to overcome the environmental add-ons.  Fuel efficiency for a 2004 or newer motor is roughly 85% that of a 2003 motor.  Statistics siting improved fuel economy in trucks are largely due to more aerodynamic trucks and lower rolling resistance tires.


I only know one person that has ever been mugged, to my knowledge.  That was only an attempted mugging, and it happened to me.  His victim selection process needed some work.


I am 100% for a use tax.  As a matter of fact, I support a Fair Tax.

Look, how about I give half of what I make to the government and then they leave me alone?  I'd sign up for that.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Zathras

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Reply #19 on: August 25, 2009, 04:18:50 AM
Heradel, you see government as good, and I see it as a necessary evil.  Our philosophies are quite different.  I could go grab facts and carry on a debate with you, but the fact is, I'm not interested. 

Again, I tried to put this post up as a warning to get people to plan for their future.  It was hijacked.  I'm done with it.  Starve, I don't care.


Edit::  The last statement was uncalled for.  I'm not going to remove it, but I will strike through it.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 01:01:34 PM by Zorag »



Russell Nash

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Reply #20 on: August 25, 2009, 08:28:32 AM
Your initial point was right.  We came at it from two different angles.  You first said the government won't take care of you.  I said it never promised to do more than basic sustenance and assistance. 

The discussion came from your criticism of taxes and government regulation.  Our responses to you were, "basically you're right about saving for your future, but…" 

We muck around with a system that doesn't take care of its people and we all think it sucks.  Some of us say, "give me all of my money back and I'll take care of me and mine."  Some of us say, "Let's take care of everybody and then make it as efficient as possible."  The rest say, "let's not change anything until it totally falls apart."

The US isn't #1 in any of the quality of life categories.  All that countries that are ahead of us in those categories have higher taxes and higher government regulation.



Talia

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Reply #21 on: August 25, 2009, 01:15:04 PM
I will also add that one of the arguements of the Libertarian standpoint that angers me the most (not saying you're arguing this, Zorag, but many do) is that anyone who can't support himself is lazy and brought their situations down upon themselves, therefore they don't deserve any aid. As a result, the arguement i hear is "Don't waste MY tax money supporting these bums!" or something similar.

A fundimental lack of compassion is the biggest problem among the Libertarian types I know.



Zathras

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Reply #22 on: August 25, 2009, 01:30:00 PM
I will also add that one of the arguements of the Libertarian standpoint that angers me the most (not saying you're arguing this, Zorag, but many do) is that anyone who can't support himself is lazy and brought their situations down upon themselves, therefore they don't deserve any aid. As a result, the arguement i hear is "Don't waste MY tax money supporting these bums!" or something similar.

A fundimental lack of compassion is the biggest problem among the Libertarian types I know.

Nope, not me.  I say give people the assistance they need.  Encourage them to improve their situation by not taking away those benefits if they find work.  Put a cap on the extra income and if they exceed the cap, reduce the benefits by .25 for every dollar they make over the cap.  It encourages people to honestly report income and to go out and find said income.

I also prefer help to come from the local communities and organizations.  This way the help is more than a check.



Swamp

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Reply #23 on: August 25, 2009, 02:01:55 PM
Starve, I don't care.

Edit::  The last statement was uncalled for. 

It certainly was.  It undercuts your previous points about being generous, as well as my defense of your position.  I don't think it represents your true intent.

Some of us say, "give me all of my money back and I'll take care of me and mine."  Some of us say, "Let's take care of everybody and then make it as efficient as possible." 

I'm pretty much somewhere in between, but I don't necessarily trust the goverment to be efficient with my money (or effiecient about much else).  I suspect it to be siphoned of for pet projects or for programs that I didn't sign up for to begin with, or for bail-outs.  

I know a certain amount of government and buerocracy is required for a free society, but where is the limit?  I know a dictatorship can be effiecient, but I don't want that.  I believe in a representative government and elected leaders.  However, I don't believe the government should have too much power, so that everybody depends on that government for everything.  Where is that balance?  Where is the line?  I guess that is what we are trying to figure out.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #24 on: August 25, 2009, 02:11:53 PM
Some of us say, "give me all of my money back and I'll take care of me and mine."  Some of us say, "Let's take care of everybody and then make it as efficient as possible." 

I'm pretty much somewhere in between, but I don't necessarily trust the goverment to be efficient with my money (or effiecient about much else).  I suspect it to be siphoned of for pet projects or for programs that I didn't sign up for to begin with, or for bail-outs.  

I know a certain amount of government and buerocracy is required for a free society, but where is the limit?  I know a dictatorship can be effiecient, but I don't want that.  I believe in a representative government and elected leaders.  However, I don't believe the government should have too much power, so that everybody depends on that government for everything.  Where is that balance?  Where is the line?  I guess that is what we are trying to figure out.

By "take care of" I meant make sure they are at or above a certain standard of living including healthcare; education; and enough funds for basic food, clothing, and shelter.