Author Topic: "Podcastle is very feminine"  (Read 33419 times)

Talia

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2682
  • Muahahahaha
on: October 09, 2009, 07:05:43 PM
I read this posted elsewhere and am not sure what to make of it. A glance suggests there are a heck of a lot more stories with female protagonists but that might just be my perception.

What sez you.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #1 on: October 09, 2009, 07:30:30 PM
It's been said before, and indeed was the cause of some negatively toned debates in these forums. As far as I am concerned, any publication will have some sort of editorial bias, whether deliberate or accidental.  What matters to me is that Podcastle runs storys I really enjoy, whether or not I like a particular story doesn't correlate with it's "femininity" either positively or negatively, and in general, I don't feel left out in any way because I'm male.



Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #2 on: October 09, 2009, 07:31:21 PM
On an automatic response level, the statement feels fairly true.  On reflection, I suspect there are several underlying reasons.

1) It is hosted by a woman, which means the primary voice associated with the podcasts is female rather than male

2) Fantasy is the "girliest" of the genres, in terms of received wisdom and common knowledge.  "Science fiction" brings up images of manly things like tools and rockets and fighting aliens and Science! and so on.  "Horror" again has connotations of manliness with violence, aggression, and snatching up the fire ax to hit the zombie in the head.  (Plus, the quintessential "horror movie" scene is the scantily-clad young actress screaming as the generally very masculine killer attacks from a camera-POV shot.)  But "fantasy" is all unicorns and witches and cats for familiars and generally has cooties.

I'd be interested if someone did a statistical breakdown of male protagonists versus female protagonists by podcast.  I don't expect there would actually be a significant difference; I suspect it is all psychological smoke and mirrors, misperception driven by expectations and cultural biases.



Swamp

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2230
    • Journey Into... podcast
Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 08:54:56 PM
It's been said before, and indeed was the cause of some negatively toned debates in these forums. As far as I am concerned, any publication will have some sort of editorial bias, whether deliberate or accidental.  What matters to me is that Podcastle runs storys I really enjoy, whether or not I like a particular story doesn't correlate with it's "femininity" either positively or negatively, and in general, I don't feel left out in any way because I'm male.

I am in complete agreement with every bit of eytanz's statement here.

And, yes, this has been discussed before.  I know many are new to the forums, and you can look back to those discussions.  I don't think Talia's starting this post was meant to open old wounds, but let's be careful not to attract the wolves.

But "fantasy" is all unicorns and witches and cats for familiars and generally has cooties

I think you are right that that is the general outside perception, but I think PodCastle has done a great job of proving that not to be the case.

I'd be interested if someone did a statistical breakdown of male protagonists versus female protagonists by podcast.

Personally, I wouldn't.  The way I see it, you either like the majority of the stories or you don't.

Facehuggers don't have heads!

Come with me and Journey Into... another fun podcast


Heradel

  • Bill Peters, EP Assistant
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2938
  • Part-Time Psychopomp.
Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 09:43:50 PM
Actually, Rachel ran the numbers a few weeks ago and the male/female protagonist ratio was something like 53/47, though I'm not sure if it was 53 male 47 female or the other way around, and whichever way that went the author ratio went the other way by nearly the same slight margin. Either way, not a huge difference. I'm not sure about EP or PP's male/female protagonist ratio, but SF as a whole seems to trend towards male protagonists (Han Solo, Luke, Hiro Protagonist, Kirk, Spock, the all-male cast of 2001, etc.). A more even split would probably seem more feminine.

Actually, that same time I was talking to Rachel we both couldn't remember a Podcastle story that included a Unicorn.

But yes, we've had the "is Podcastle sexist about men" argument back when it was too young for the question to be anything but silly, and it's about as silly now.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #5 on: October 09, 2009, 10:05:40 PM
Personally, I wouldn't.  The way I see it, you either like the majority of the stories or you don't.

Specifically in terms of settling the "more feminine" discussion with at least some sort of mathematical basis.  At that point, we can see if Pod Castle really is more feminine (or at least features more women) than the other pods.  If it is, then we can wonder why that might be.  If it isn't, we can see why it has that impression.  (And it does; I definitely *feel* like it's "more feminine," and that makes me wonder *why* I feel that way.)



lowky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2717
  • from http://lovecraftismissing.com/?page_id=3142
Reply #6 on: October 10, 2009, 02:15:13 AM
I tend to agree, not sure what exactly it was about Podcastle but something with it turned me off a little, whether it is that PC feels more feminine, or what I'm not sure.  I haven't stopped downloading, but I have a huge backlog, as there always seems to be something I would rather listen to more.  It could just be that alot of the type of fantasy I like has more in common with Weird Tales.  I like the adventure story type fantasy.  Conan, Fritz Leiber (would love to see some Fafhard and Gray Mouser tales written by anyone at this point), to a lesser extent Tarzan, and their kith and kin.  I also like the John Norman Gor books for for the same reason--Adventure.  (If Podcastle is truly feminist, I think mentioning a fondness of the Gor books will get me drawn and quartered)


Talia

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2682
  • Muahahahaha
Reply #7 on: October 10, 2009, 06:25:23 AM


I am in complete agreement with every bit of eytanz's statement here.

And, yes, this has been discussed before.  I know many are new to the forums, and you can look back to those discussions.  I don't think Talia's starting this post was meant to open old wounds, but let's be careful not to attract the wolves.

er. no, not it wasnt! Apparently I missed something somewhere. I just thought it was an interesting point.

... Sorry, I guess. I didn't know. Missed that particular arguement.



Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #8 on: October 10, 2009, 09:42:16 AM
"Is PodCastle really more 'feminine'?" is an interesting question, I think, especially if it really isn't actually provably more feminine (beyond having a female host.)  The question here has nothing to do with being "sexist," nor is it in any way a criticism of the stories.  (Unless somehow "feminine" is an insult now, in and of itself.) 

I personally find these sorts of sociological issues intriguing, which is why I'd be interested in relative male/female POV ratios among the podcasts.  Is there actually a difference?  If so, why?  If not, why is there a perceived difference? 

I understand that previously there may have been arguments about silly stuff and unfair criticisms, but having the response to that be "we must not speak of such things" seems a bit goofy to me.  Eytanz jumped right into "I'm not offended and I don't think the stories are bad!"  No one said anyone else was or should be offended and no one claimed the quality of the stories was affected one way or the other.  Swamp said that analyzing the question wasn't interesting because "you either like the stories or you don't."  Again, no one said they didn't like the stories or wouldn't like feminine stories.  (Okay, lowky said it now, but s/he didn't explicitly blame it on the heroes having girly-bits.)

The question is, is PodCastle perceived as "feminine," and if so, why?  Is it just the cultural baggage attached to the fantasy genre, or does it have a higher percentage of female protagonists?  If it does, is that a reflection of editorial taste (whether purposeful or incidental) or a reflection of the pool of stories submitted?  There's some potentially very interesting (albeit academic and metagenre) data to mine and analyze here, and I for one am interested in the discussion for its own sake.



Swamp

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2230
    • Journey Into... podcast
Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 10:09:17 AM


I am in complete agreement with every bit of eytanz's statement here.

And, yes, this has been discussed before.  I know many are new to the forums, and you can look back to those discussions.  I don't think Talia's starting this post was meant to open old wounds, but let's be careful not to attract the wolves.

er. no, not it wasnt! Apparently I missed something somewhere. I just thought it was an interesting point.

... Sorry, I guess. I didn't know. Missed that particular arguement.

\
That's what I figured  :)

Facehuggers don't have heads!

Come with me and Journey Into... another fun podcast


lowky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2717
  • from http://lovecraftismissing.com/?page_id=3142
Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 01:34:04 PM
  Again, no one said they didn't like the stories or wouldn't like feminine stories.  (Okay, lowky said it now, but s/he didn't explicitly blame it on the heroes having girly-bits.)

For the record I never said I didn't like feminine stories, for instance I loved Nina Kimberly the Merciless.  There is something about Podcastle itself that just doesn't excite me like the other two (and to be honest I am less interested in EscapePod lately as well).  The stories may be wonderful, several generate alot of comments, I just seem more interested in other stories lately for some reason.  I think in part because I didn't have reliable internet for about 6 months then no internet for about 3 months.  Now I have ok internet, but just haven't gotten back into the stories as much.  I tend to prefer Adventure stories, be they Fantasy or other genres of SF.  I don't care if the hero has girly-bits or not.  I just prefer much more so adventure stories ala Howard, Burroughs, and Leiber.  If you want to write me a story in similar vein with a female author and female characters and female narrator I will probably love it.  I will say I have never been excited about the intros and outros for Podcastle like I have been for EP and PP.  That too could be part of why I listen to it less than I do PP.  I don't know.  I love Mur, if she could have about 40 hours in a day, (I know she's too busy with only 24) I would love to hear her doing more narrating, intros, etc.  For any of the 3 EA podcasts.  If I knew what one thing it was about PC I don't care for I would put voice to it, I am sure at least some of it is, I am behind, on many podcasts and keep discovering new ones. It seems there is a new Zombie podcast novel popping up every week.  recently discovered Fried Green Zombies for anyone interested.  It has a burka wearing female alien named Bob and Zombies in it.  What more could you ask for?


hautdesert

  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 315
Reply #11 on: October 10, 2009, 02:09:25 PM
Authors:
57% female
43% male

Narrators:
45% female
55% male

Those are the stats Rachel sent me recently.  Make of them what you will.  I do find it interesting that the author/narrator breakdown is very similar, but switched--that is, mid fifties female authors, mid fifties male narrators, mid forties male authors, mid forties female narrators.  I don't think it's a case of "all the women are writing men and all the men are writing women!" at all, it's just, kind of interesting.

Personally, I'm not convinced that women write different sorts of stories from men.  I think different authors write different sorts of stories, definitely, but I'm not convinced things are easily broken down by gender.  I've seen too many cases like this one.  I think knowing (or thinking you know) the gender of a writer can strongly affect how you perceive the story.

As for running classic sword and sorcery-type stuff, it's hard to get old work--Fritz Lieber, say, or the author I'd been suggesting to Rachel from the get-go, Jack Vance.  Problem is, when an author is dead getting permission to run their work can be supremely complicated, or when they're the age Vance is, contacting them and explaining about podcasting is its own challenge, and then there's the whole "creative commons" thing, which some authors are allergic to.  No problem, that's how things are, but it's frustrating when there's an author or a specific story you'd love to run, but you can't.

But if you do have an author or a story that you'd really like Podcastle to run, by all means suggest it.  We might not be able to get permission, but we can always at least investigate it.

Lowky, no one here will be drawn and quartered for liking anything.   :)  But I think it's safe to say that for the foreseeable future, nothing Gor will be running on Podcastle, that much is true.



Swamp

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2230
    • Journey Into... podcast
Reply #12 on: October 10, 2009, 03:33:29 PM
I understand that previously there may have been arguments about silly stuff and unfair criticisms, but having the response to that be "we must not speak of such things" seems a bit goofy to me.  Eytanz jumped right into "I'm not offended and I don't think the stories are bad!"  No one said anyone else was or should be offended and no one claimed the quality of the stories was affected one way or the other.  Swamp said that analyzing the question wasn't interesting because "you either like the stories or you don't."  Again, no one said they didn't like the stories or wouldn't like feminine stories.  (Okay, lowky said it now, but s/he didn't explicitly blame it on the heroes having girly-bits.)

Sorry if I was a bit jumpy.  I just really didn't want another "let's trounce Podcastle" conversation erupting from even an innocent question.  I am actually pleased that everyone wants to discuss the subject from a sociological perspective.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 03:40:36 PM by Swamp »

Facehuggers don't have heads!

Come with me and Journey Into... another fun podcast


lowky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2717
  • from http://lovecraftismissing.com/?page_id=3142
Reply #13 on: October 10, 2009, 04:05:46 PM

As for running classic sword and sorcery-type stuff, it's hard to get old work--Fritz Lieber, say, or the author I'd been suggesting to Rachel from the get-go, Jack Vance.  Problem is, when an author is dead getting permission to run their work can be supremely complicated, or when they're the age Vance is, contacting them and explaining about podcasting is its own challenge, and then there's the whole "creative commons" thing, which some authors are allergic to.  No problem, that's how things are, but it's frustrating when there's an author or a specific story you'd love to run, but you can't.

But if you do have an author or a story that you'd really like Podcastle to run, by all means suggest it.  We might not be able to get permission, but we can always at least investigate it.

Lowky, no one here will be drawn and quartered for liking anything.   :)  But I think it's safe to say that for the foreseeable future, nothing Gor will be running on Podcastle, that much is true.

Quote from: wikipedia
The series was continued by Robin Wayne Bailey in Swords Against the Shadowland (novel 1998).

Well don't know if Robin Wayne Bailey has anything else he's written in Nehwon setting, but if he wrote one novel in it (which I haven't read) maybe he has written other things and/or he has written other "Classic" Sword and Sorcery.  Damn if he hasn't.  He's also written in the Thieves World universe.  sent him an email re:Escape Artists, bcc'd editorATpodcastleDOTorg.  For those interested he has a website at http://www.robinwaynebailey.net/


eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #14 on: October 10, 2009, 04:31:13 PM
I understand that previously there may have been arguments about silly stuff and unfair criticisms, but having the response to that be "we must not speak of such things" seems a bit goofy to me.  Eytanz jumped right into "I'm not offended and I don't think the stories are bad!" 

I should point out that that wasn't really what I was trying to convey - what I was trying to say was "Podcastle isn't feminine in any way that matters to me". There are ways to look at it in which it probably is feminine, but I don't care about those.



stePH

  • Actually has enough cowbell.
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3906
  • Cool story, bro!
    • Thetatr0n on SoundCloud
Reply #15 on: October 10, 2009, 10:28:13 PM
If PodCastle were a woman, I'd do her.  ;D

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


Talia

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2682
  • Muahahahaha
Reply #16 on: October 10, 2009, 11:06:12 PM
If PodCastle were a woman, I'd do her.  ;D

Me too!



Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 04:13:09 AM
If PodCastle were a woman, I'd do her.  ;D

Roll the dice to see if you're getting drunk.

---

Hautdesert - is that narrators meaning "the people who read the story" or "the character from whose perspective the story is told"? 



thomasowenm

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 364
  • Servant of The Orator Maleficent
Reply #18 on: October 11, 2009, 01:45:26 PM
I have never minded the gender of characters in stories I read or listen too.  The main thing is that I end up caring for them.  Now I will say that gender has never bothered on PC, but what has bothered by about PC is that it is too pc.    Whether that is actually the case or not is not an issue, it's my perception of it. *****End of knocking PC for me on this thread.***** 

A good host is a good host, and a good story is a good story, and a good narrator is a good narrator.  That's all I care about on my PC. ;D




JoeFitz

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 01:57:34 PM
As has been posted elsewhere, part of the issue is one of relative perception (the other EP podcasts have many more male authors, male protags so 50/50 seems like "a lot more"), and also of perceptual bias (seek an ye shall find).

Frankly, my response to this is more "how feminine" should it be? (This is especially true because I'm not sure that I understand what is meant by "feminine" in this context.)

We can crunch numbers; we can compare the family of EP; we can attempt to survey genres. In the end, I think that the "feminine quotient" is where it should be for this podcast. If I start to enumerate all of the factors that might determine whether a piece appears on PodCastle or not, I am fully confident that whether the author or protagonist are female (if that is what is meant by "feminine") is not a factor that results in otherwise "poor" stories appearing.

Besides, consider that episodes are limited to the pool of work that is available for publication, and I have no idea as to the ratio of female/male authors at any stage of the publication process or whether that ratio "means" anything or "shifts".

I also have no idea if running "more" female authors or protagonists makes the podcast "feminine" or whether it is a particular type of narrative or plot that is "feminine."

So, in the end, is seems like a "Podcastle is very feminine" is a non-sequitur that can neither be proven nor disproven.




hautdesert

  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 315
Reply #20 on: October 11, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
Hautdesert - is that narrators meaning "the people who read the story" or "the character from whose perspective the story is told"? 

Yes.

Rachel tries to match them when she can.



Swamp

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2230
    • Journey Into... podcast
Reply #21 on: October 11, 2009, 04:06:01 PM
As has been posted elsewhere, part of the issue is one of relative perception (the other EP podcasts have many more male authors, male protags so 50/50 seems like "a lot more")

I did the math on Escape Pod for the authors and the result was 67% male, 33% female.  Going through the protagonists will take a bit longer.

Hautdesert - is that narrators meaning "the people who read the story" or "the character from whose perspective the story is told"? 

Yes.

Rachel tries to match them when she can.

"Kissing Frogs" kind of counts for both. ;)

That's all I care about on my PC. ;D

I think we missed an idea for for the tagline contest:  PodCastle - I'm a PC.

Facehuggers don't have heads!

Come with me and Journey Into... another fun podcast


deflective

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1171
Reply #22 on: October 11, 2009, 07:05:57 PM
this thread keeps showing up in recent posts and like a sore tooth that i keep poking at, i keep reading it.

it's frustrating on a couple levels.  perhaps most poignantly, the reason why i'm posting, is the implication that no one should be seen as criticizing.  there are obviously issues that drive listeners away from pod castle but we don't want you talking about them, the people here don't want to hear it.  any wolves that might have a opposing viewpoint should keep their distance, we'll discuss why they might have their opinion without talking to them.  thank you.

on a secondary level, it's frustrating to see past debates disregarded.  i put multiple posts into explaining why gender numbers are probably beside the point but it has no real effect.  when i dropped the podcastle feed a little under a year ago we'd gone months (that i remember) with two reocurring themes: patriarchs iconoclast & capable matriarchs.  powerful wizard actually has alzheimer, hobbit senator brought low, grandfather gets his comeuppance, goblin matron outwits warmongers.  not every story had the theme and most of the stories that did were fine but it was the same thing showing up a couple times every month.  when we got to intelligent design i had a personal bet whether it would be about an iconoclast god or a matronly earth goddess, it was both.  when the preview for the next story suggested a creation myth with a woman busying herself over an oven i decided that i wasn't getting the variety that i wanted.

pseudopod's recent success is mostly due to Alasdair's hosting but no small part is due to response to listener feedback.  we now hear Ben talking about the wide variety of stories available and the broad spectrum horror to pull from.  pod castle seems unwilling to run more traditional pulp fantasy (the combat i remember was in stories about a woman wearing shrinking chainmail so she thought she was gaining weight, and an actress that gained a vampire slayer's powers.  both stories spent more time on the inner dialogues about their weight than the combat that occurred).  in the intros to the couple episodes i've downloaded over the past year it sounds like some sort rebranding is taking place (modern fantasy i think was the line) which helps to shape expectations but isn't really the direction i was hoping for.

anyway, here's a much blunter perspective on why some people think podcastle is feminine.  it's a year out of date and things have undoubtedly changed but it probably still has some relevance.



Swamp

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2230
    • Journey Into... podcast
Reply #23 on: October 11, 2009, 07:41:01 PM
this thread keeps showing up in recent posts and like a sore tooth that i keep poking at, i keep reading it.

it's frustrating on a couple levels.  perhaps most poignantly, the reason why i'm posting, is the implication that no one should be seen as criticizing.  there are obviously issues that drive listeners away from pod castle but we don't want you talking about them, the people here don't want to hear it.  any wolves that might have a opposing viewpoint should keep their distance, we'll discuss why they might have their opinion without talking to them.  thank you.

I'll own up to this one.  I was reactionary; I'm sorry.  My "wolves" comment was uncalled for.  I was feeling grumpy at the time, similar to how I was when there were all of the religion vs. science debates.  This was my bad.

However, if you notice, the people that actually have something to do with PodCastle, namely Heradel and Hautdesert , have been more than willing to discuss the subject.

Facehuggers don't have heads!

Come with me and Journey Into... another fun podcast


hautdesert

  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 315
Reply #24 on: October 11, 2009, 08:30:50 PM
when i dropped the podcastle feed a little under a year ago we'd gone months (that i remember) with two reocurring themes: patriarchs iconoclast & capable matriarchs.  powerful wizard actually has alzheimer, hobbit senator brought low, grandfather gets his comeuppance, goblin matron outwits warmongers. 

The powerful wizard with alzheimers really wasn't a patriarch brought low issue at all.  The theme of that story was "alzheimers" and it was, by the author's own words, inspired by someone he loved being diagnosed with the disease.  This is where, I think, perceptions about what Podcastle's staff's percieved "agenda" end up outweighing the actual themes of the stories.

I might give you Senator Bilbo--but I'm pretty sure Andy Duncan is talking about racism, and it's not as a male patriarch that the Senator is brought low, but as a racist.  But since indeed a "patriarch" is brought low in that story, I'll give you that one.

The thing is, from where I'm sitting, I don't see a strong "woman power" theme running through the cast.  And I'm remembering the beginning, that first few months, when some folks claimed the stories were obviously chosen with a feminist agenda, and all about woman power and hating men and such, when, in fact, nearly all of the stories we'd run so far were chosen by Steve.  It's hard for me not to wonder if the same assumptions would have played a part if the new editor had been someone male, or really, anyone but Rachel.


Quote
when we got to intelligent design i had a personal bet whether it would be about an iconoclast god or a matronly earth goddess, it was both.  when the preview for the next story suggested a creation myth with a woman busying herself over an oven i decided that i wasn't getting the variety that i wanted.

Any story about God is going to be either a confessional (and possibly platitudinous) document, or else iconoclastic, and Podcastle is very unlikely to run that sort of confessional story, so that's an easy bet in any event.

By the creator over an oven, do you mean the Vylar Kaftan about the gingerbread cookies?  That was about as different from the one about beetles as you could get. 

Quote
anyway, here's a much blunter perspective on why some people think podcastle is feminine.  it's a year out of date and things have undoubtedly changed but it probably still has some relevance.

Here's my blunt perspective--the same mix of stories, chosen by Steve, would excite no speculation as to the gendered nature of Podcastle.  My basis--the fact, as stated above, that stories chosen by Steve did excite such speculation when the audience thought Rachel had chosen them.

As to "traditional" fantasy vs "modern" I think personally that there's a sort of type of fantasy that's in vogue right now, and of course it's easier for us to find work by current authors.  And as I said in an earlier post, it's hard to get work from older authors, or dead ones.  And Podcastle can only run stories that are either submitted, or that the editor finds (say, in years best anthos, or just reading magazines) and asks for--and that's assuming that those solicited authors are willing or able to grant permission.  This is a not inconsiderable impediment to bringing you old-fashioned spells & swords type stuff.

I know all the EA editors have said before, and I'll say here again, if you know of an author who you'd love to see on EP, or PP, or PC, contact them if you know how, and email the editor of the appropriate cast to suggest the story--it helps if you give not just a title and author, but where the story might be found, so the editor can read it.