good rhythm

[wakela]

Every once in a while a writer talks about the rhythm of the words.  On Starship Sofa recently a guy talked about making an opera out of Terry Bisson's They're Made Out of Meat, and he said he liked the rhythm of "made out of meat"  da-da-da-DA.  He mentioned that this rhythm was repeated throughout the story.   It's not something the reader notices, but it makes it more pleasing to read.  Now, I would be able to go back and tweak one of my stories so that I was repeating the same rhythm throughout, but my question is: how do you know if it's a good rhythm or a bad one?  Can you?  Or is this just one of the things you sense?  A teacher can tell you how to make your characters more interesting and fleshed out, how to make your words more precise, your plot less cliche.  Can they tell you how to get the rhythm right? 

[Scattercat]

Try reading some poetry.  Poetry is language distilled and focused, and is much more intent on rhythmic/musical sounds than prose.  I am firmly of the belief that at least some grounding in poetry and poetic techniques makes anyone a better writer.

[Talia]

Try reading some poetry.  Poetry is language distilled and focused, and is much more intent on rhythmic/musical sounds than prose.  I am firmly of the belief that at least some grounding in poetry and poetic techniques makes anyone a better writer.

THIS.

It's something you feel, but that feeling is an essential part of poetry writing.

Although in this specific instance, I would point to how the most significant part of the sentence falls at the end.

Meat is the most important word in the sentence. Of course the heaviest emphasis falls on it.
Try reading reading your stuff to yourself out loud and see where you want emphasis to lie.

[wakela]

Try reading some poetry.  Poetry is language distilled and focused, and is much more intent on rhythmic/musical sounds than prose.  I am firmly of the belief that at least some grounding in poetry and poetic techniques makes anyone a better writer.

THIS.

It's something you feel, but that feeling is an essential part of poetry writing.

Although in this specific instance, I would point to how the most significant part of the sentence falls at the end.

Meat is the most important word in the sentence. Of course the heaviest emphasis falls on it.
Try reading reading your stuff to yourself out loud and see where you want emphasis to lie.

Did you intent to make "THIS" a link?  Otherwise, it's way to Zen for me. 

[Listener]

Try reading some poetry.  Poetry is language distilled and focused, and is much more intent on rhythmic/musical sounds than prose.  I am firmly of the belief that at least some grounding in poetry and poetic techniques makes anyone a better writer.

THIS.

It's something you feel, but that feeling is an essential part of poetry writing.

Although in this specific instance, I would point to how the most significant part of the sentence falls at the end.

Meat is the most important word in the sentence. Of course the heaviest emphasis falls on it.
Try reading reading your stuff to yourself out loud and see where you want emphasis to lie.

Did you intent to make "THIS" a link?  Otherwise, it's way to Zen for me. 

I may be talking out of turn here, but "THIS" is current internet-speak to mean "I strongly agree with the message conveyed above".

[Alasdair5000]

Try reading some poetry.  Poetry is language distilled and focused, and is much more intent on rhythmic/musical sounds than prose.  I am firmly of the belief that at least some grounding in poetry and poetic techniques makes anyone a better writer.

Like a lot of things, TV taught me about this.

No wait, come back.

Look at Aaron Sorkin's stuff, at the way he structures lines and dialogue.  Sorkin does this fascinating thing with conversations where both characters basically build the information so it goes something like:

JOSH:So the thing.
CJ:The thing with the Defence secretary?  That thing.
JOSH:Yes, the thing with the defence secretary.  We need to talk to him.
CJ:About what?  The fact he's just spoken out against abortion, something he is biologically INCAPABLE of experiencing or the fact that he called a female reporter 'darlin'' whilst doing it.
JOSH:...The first one.
CJ:So sexism's okay now?
JOSH:Toby's working on the memo.
CJ:Joshua!

Back and forth, build and rebuild.  'Celestial Navigation' from season 1 features the best example of this ever.


Then take a look at David Mamet, who does the same thing through entirely minimal dialogue.  Mamet works like Pinter, using the empty spaces to pass on the actual information.  Witness this exchange from Redbelt, which I'm pretty sure I'm slightly misquoting.

'Did you tell her you fought in the war?'
'Yes.'
'Did you tell her what you did?'


Then there's Shane Black, who writes with the pace of a classical pianist.  Witness this exchange from Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, one of the finest films of the last twenty years:

Perry: My $2000 ceramic Vektor my mother got me as a special gift. You threw in the lake next to the car. What happens when they drag the lake? You think they'll find my pistol. Jesus. Look up "idiot" in the dictionary. You know what you'll find?
Harry: A picture of me?
Perry: No! The definition of the word idiot, which you fucking are!

and:

Harry: What is it out here with these women?
Harmony: Oh please, Harry, they're no different from anywhere else.
Harry: Yes, they are. These are damaged goods, every one of them, from way back. I'm telling you, you take a guy who sleeps with 100 women a year, go into his childhood - dollars to doughnuts, it's relatively unspectacular. Now, you take one of these... gals, who sleeps with 100 guys a year, and I *bet* you if you look in their childhood, there's something rotten in Denver.
Harmony: Denmark.
Harry: That too! But it's abandonment, it's abuse, it's, "My uncle put his ping-ping in my papa!"... and then they all come out here! I mean, it's literally like someone took America by the East Coast and shook it, and all the normal girls managed to hang on.
Harmony: OK, everyone who hates Harry raise your hand!
[All the girls in the club raise their hands.]
Perry: See that? Obedient little bitches too.
Girl: Fuck you! [Throws a glass at Perry, which he ducks.]


In print there's the repetition of phrase and motif that people like Cormac Mcarthy play with, specifically the use of a man carrying a torch as the embodiment of life and hope ('We're carrying the fire' being repeated throughout The Road which also in 'Each the other's world entire' has one of the best summations of parental love ever written) or Douglas Coupland's fondness for emphasising the distance and disconnection his characters feel with life by communicating at a distance and through their internet presence or other characters' views of them as shown in Generation A. 

Basically rhythm is the point at which you stop being good and start being great, harnessing your influences and past experience in a way that makes something new.  Or at least that's my theory:)

[Talia]

Try reading some poetry.  Poetry is language distilled and focused, and is much more intent on rhythmic/musical sounds than prose.  I am firmly of the belief that at least some grounding in poetry and poetic techniques makes anyone a better writer.

THIS.

It's something you feel, but that feeling is an essential part of poetry writing.

Although in this specific instance, I would point to how the most significant part of the sentence falls at the end.

Meat is the most important word in the sentence. Of course the heaviest emphasis falls on it.
Try reading reading your stuff to yourself out loud and see where you want emphasis to lie.

Did you intent to make "THIS" a link?  Otherwise, it's way to Zen for me. 

I may be talking out of turn here, but "THIS" is current internet-speak to mean "I strongly agree with the message conveyed above".

This.

:p
I spend too much time online.

[Scattercat]

Good television writing is also a great place to learn rhythm, I agree.  At least for dialogue.

I find movies and TV to also be helpful in demonstrating "show, don't tell."  Since all movies CAN do is show, it's helpful for finding examples of ways to indicate things without just announcing them in narration (which for video would be the equivalent of the dreaded voice-over, or else Mister Scientician Explains the Plot, neither of which are good ideas unless you really know what you're doing.)

[wakela]

Try reading some poetry.  Poetry is language distilled and focused, and is much more intent on rhythmic/musical sounds than prose.  I am firmly of the belief that at least some grounding in poetry and poetic techniques makes anyone a better writer.

THIS.

It's something you feel, but that feeling is an essential part of poetry writing.

Although in this specific instance, I would point to how the most significant part of the sentence falls at the end.

Meat is the most important word in the sentence. Of course the heaviest emphasis falls on it.
Try reading reading your stuff to yourself out loud and see where you want emphasis to lie.

Did you intent to make "THIS" a link?  Otherwise, it's way to Zen for me. 

I may be talking out of turn here, but "THIS" is current internet-speak to mean "I strongly agree with the message conveyed above".

This.

:p
I spend too much time online.

OK.  Sorry.  Totally did not know that.  Thanks.

Alasdair, great, well-researched response.  Pseudopod outro-level quality.  With examples (I was going to post today asking for exampled of good rhythm). If you were writing those from memory I don't know whether to be impressed or feel pity.

So I need to read more poetry and watch more TV.  Hmmmm....

Is there some extent to which the rhythm can be separated from the meaning.  I know everything should be intertwined, but the rhythm of "made out of meat" stands on its own.  Do you find iambic pentameter-like phrasing in prose?

[Scattercat]

Well, I mean, there's Shakespeare...

You might actually try reading speeches.  Political speeches, I mean.  There's a lot of work that goes into making those sound juuuust right.  Barack Obama is one of the better recent speechifiers that I've seen (though his delivery tends to end up with a lot of "ums".)

[Sgarre1]

For a wide variety of easily accessed and freely downloaded recordings of a large number of 20th century poets, PENNSOUND at:

http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/authors.php

is a wonderful resource (I'm currently listening my way through Louis Zukofsky).