Author Topic: EP166: The Something-Dreaming Game  (Read 47003 times)

JoeFitz

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Reply #75 on: July 21, 2008, 09:18:05 PM
Quote
there wouldn't be the same sort of conflict if the choking element was replaced with an illness. the mother had to make the choice whether or not to let Tara risk herself, to make the adult decision that this was something worth risking her life for. Tara wasn't a victim of illness when she made her choice, she was proactively risking her life to accomplish something.

the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children. this thread shows plainly that there are a lot of people that simply wont get past it no matter how it's used in the story. using an element that alienates so many people is an odd decision.

one possible reading is that it's the story's subtext. letting go of your children, letting them be adult and make adult decisions even if you can still see them as nine years old and know it will permanently change them.

I agree to a point. In retrospect, I wonder what the reception would have been like if Tara was drinking alcohol or doing drugs (other adult behaviours we are not comfortable seeing in children)? Or how about simply having sex? Why make it into something more extreme? Breath play, as a paraphilia among adults is, as I understand it, related to/classified with BDSM. Why did we need to go beyond "Tara is having sex/drinking/doing drugs to contact aliens and Mom is conflicted" to "Tara is unable to have sex, drink alcohol or do drugs, so she chokes herself to contact aliens and Mom is conflicted."

I would also note, popular culture has no problem sexualizing children, it has a problem being honest or consistent about its reaction to this depiction. As in: Britney Spears bumping and grinding like a stripper on stage is okay, but remaking Lolita is not.

Mod: Tried to clarify quoting
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 10:11:09 AM by Russell Nash »



slowmovingthing

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Reply #76 on: July 22, 2008, 01:19:59 AM
there wouldn't be the same sort of conflict if the choking element was replaced with an illness. the mother had to make the choice whether or not to let Tara risk herself, to make the adult decision that this was something worth risking her life for. Tara wasn't a victim of illness when she made her choice, she was proactively risking her life to accomplish something.

the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children. this thread shows plainly that there are a lot of people that simply wont get past it no matter how it's used in the story. using an element that alienates so many people is an odd decision.

I disagree. If it was simply some involuntary biological reaction that was causing issues with the implant that caused blackouts and, as a side effect, contact with the alien, the choice to stop the daughter to save her health/life and whether to "power down" the device and risk the loss of the devices usefulness versus letting her continue and trust in her judgment would still be possible.

I'd like to point out that although I have come out claiming the autoerotic asphyxiation was an unnecessary part of the story, I do feel the need to proclaim that Elizabeth Bear made a wonderful piece of fiction and respect her right as the author to craft her story any way she chooses.

So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter after the alien info dump and bene gesserit reverend mothers who go through the spice agony (another kind of massive info dump (and more))?


 



wakela

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Reply #77 on: July 22, 2008, 02:56:48 AM
Quote from: slowmovingthing
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter
I'm not 100% convinced that the daughter received an info dump.  I think Bear intends that she did, but it's more likely that she never experienced an actual alien contact, and her weirdness at the end is the result of brain damage.  Though the mother may prefer not to believe that.

I hear this story on a SF podcast so I think maybe she talked to aliens.  But if I had heard it in real life there is no way I would believe that.



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Reply #78 on: July 22, 2008, 10:17:02 AM
Quote from: slowmovingthing
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter
I'm not 100% convinced that the daughter received an info dump.  I think Bear intends that she did, but it's more likely that she never experienced an actual alien contact, and her weirdness at the end is the result of brain damage.  Though the mother may prefer not to believe that.

I hear this story on a SF podcast so I think maybe she talked to aliens.  But if I had heard it in real life there is no way I would believe that.

Damn man, you did it to me again.  More than a week after I listen to a story, you come along and give me an entirely different perspective on the ending.  Since the daughter hasn't started spouting great wisdom, there is nothing to directly contradict your reading of it.



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Reply #79 on: July 22, 2008, 11:59:09 AM
Quote from: slowmovingthing
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter
I'm not 100% convinced that the daughter received an info dump.  I think Bear intends that she did, but it's more likely that she never experienced an actual alien contact, and her weirdness at the end is the result of brain damage.  Though the mother may prefer not to believe that.

I hear this story on a SF podcast so I think maybe she talked to aliens.  But if I had heard it in real life there is no way I would believe that.
The fact that the implant's memory was filled up with the equivalent of 25 Libraries of Congress (or whatever it was) is obviously intended to be proof that an alien society has downloaded everything they deemed important to her. But it could equally be a glitch in the table of contents.

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deflective

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Reply #80 on: July 22, 2008, 01:41:28 PM
the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children.
I would also note, popular culture has no problem sexualizing children, it has a problem being honest or consistent about its reaction to this depiction. As in: Britney Spears bumping and grinding like a stripper on stage is okay, but remaking Lolita is not.

you make a valid distinction. american pop culture seems to be all right with underaged kids acting sexy so long as they claim that they're not actually having sex. i assume that you're talking about Spears seven or eight years past (showing your age a little =P), back when she was dressing like a schoolgirl and claiming chastity. it would have been more accurate me to say 'promote sexual activity' rather than 'sexualize'.

there wouldn't be the same sort of conflict if the choking element was replaced with an illness. the mother had to make the choice whether or not to let Tara risk herself, to make the adult decision that this was something worth risking her life for. Tara wasn't a victim of illness when she made her choice, she was proactively risking her life to accomplish something.
I disagree. If it was simply some involuntary biological reaction that was causing issues with the implant that caused blackouts and, as a side effect, contact with the alien, the choice to stop the daughter to save her health/life and whether to "power down" the device and risk the loss of the devices usefulness versus letting her continue and trust in her judgment would still be possible.

that may be a conflict but it isn't the same sort of conflict. there is a substantial difference to the story if Tara is a victim instead of actively risking herself.

I thought it was a very interesting story and i liked it, but i think the ending made it a little too 'safe'.
The whole concept of kids strangling themselves is extremely scary and in the story it was justified in that aliens used it to communicate to this girl, this also made the mother and doctor to seem very negligent, i cannot imagine how they would think it was ok to let the girl just choke.

I know this is just is story and not a moral message, but i kinda think it should have been a message, instead of just saying "hey kids are trying to kill themselves and it's ok because they might be communicating with aliens", especially considering that according to responses in this thread, that 'game' is more common than i thought

first of all, no one was trying to kill themselves. people were risking their lives.

mainly i'm responding because your position reoccurs repeatedly throughout this thread: Jillian and the doctor are acting negligently & irrationally. it kinda bugs me since they acted incredibly rationally. just real world rational not hollywood rational.

unsupported claims are discounted and mocked in the standard hollywood formula. it's a cheap way to build some outraged sympathy. these glasses let you see aliens? no way. there's a monster in the window behind me? i'm not gonna fall for that. you say that your friends were brutally devoured in the basement? good joke.

so, instead of taking ten seconds to put on the glasses or turn my head i'm gonna spend minutes on end acting stubborn and building audience resentment so that they feel like i deserve it when things inevitably turn against me.

in this story Tara is incredibly honest. when Jillian asked her about the fainting game the easiest thing Tara could have done is promise to stop and then do it behind her mother's back. instead she winds up under suicide watch because she refuses to tell a convenient lie. someone like that doesn't make up stories for attention, she really believes that something unusual is happening and Jillian trusts that.

when Tara is choking, Jillian has to overcome her emotional response in order to wait to revive her. she's giving Tara the chance to work out whatever issues she has. she doesn't have to beleive in aliens or telepathy or anything else except that Tara really wants to do this. the actual risk is minimal, a doctor has a very good idea how long someone can go without oxygen. just because it seems scary doesn't make it irrational or negligent.



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Reply #81 on: July 22, 2008, 01:50:04 PM
Quote
...
the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children. this thread shows plainly that there are a lot of people that simply wont get past it no matter how it's used in the story. using an element that alienates so many people is an odd decision.

one possible reading is that it's the story's subtext. letting go of your children, letting them be adult and make adult decisions even if you can still see them as nine years old and know it will permanently change them.

I agree to a point. In retrospect, I wonder what the reception would have been like if Tara was drinking alcohol or doing drugs (other adult behaviours we are not comfortable seeing in children)? Or how about simply having sex? Why make it into something more extreme? Breath play, as a paraphilia among adults is, as I understand it, related to/classified with BDSM. Why did we need to go beyond "Tara is having sex/drinking/doing drugs to contact aliens and Mom is conflicted" to "Tara is unable to have sex, drink alcohol or do drugs, so she chokes herself to contact aliens and Mom is conflicted."

I would also note, popular culture has no problem sexualizing children, it has a problem being honest or consistent about its reaction to this depiction. As in: Britney Spears bumping and grinding like a stripper on stage is okay, but remaking Lolita is not.


This is an excellent point and I do agree that teenagers in our society seem to be forced to conform to a very strong trend in sexualized behavior, including the language they use, the way they dress and the things they do, and it does not matter whether that is due to peer pressure, the media or a very natural development. But maybe I 'read' this story completely wrong, to my mind, or rather in my imagination, Tara could not be compared to these teenagers, and comparing Tara with Britney Spears (and I am glad JoeFitz is not exactly suggesting that) is just wrong. I saw her as a CHILD, eight or nine -or however many years old, and I personally saw nothing sexual about her, not even the kind of figure that Britney Spears already used to show off in her early career.

I guess this is a problem of definition, who qualifies as a CHILD and who is a teenager, which in my definition has a very strong sexual component to it. Tara, as I imagined her while listening to the story, had nothing sexual about her, and comparing her to other CHILDREN her age who use the 'Something-Dreaming-Game' for sexual pleasure did not make sense to me. Therefore, Tara was shown as the exception from the rule, since she used the game to communicate with aliens rather than to get some kind of pleasure out of it. So I for one was glad Elizabeth Bear did NOT write about a nine-year-old (? was that her age, can't remember) Tara having sex and doing drugs etc. for whatever reason. I still see childhood as somewhat sacred and if that makes me a prude then so be it, but when we are talking about a teenager at about say 14, well, then that is a different issue.



JoeFitz

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Reply #82 on: July 22, 2008, 09:17:19 PM
I guess this is a problem of definition, who qualifies as a CHILD and who is a teenager, which in my definition has a very strong sexual component to it. Tara, as I imagined her while listening to the story, had nothing sexual about her, and comparing her to other CHILDREN her age who use the 'Something-Dreaming-Game' for sexual pleasure did not make sense to me. Therefore, Tara was shown as the exception from the rule, since she used the game to communicate with aliens rather than to get some kind of pleasure out of it. So I for one was glad Elizabeth Bear did NOT write about a nine-year-old (? was that her age, can't remember) Tara having sex and doing drugs etc. for whatever reason. I still see childhood as somewhat sacred and if that makes me a prude then so be it, but when we are talking about a teenager at about say 14, well, then that is a different issue.

I'm not really sure about the motivation for the choking game in Tara's case. Her older friend taught it to her in the hospital. Tara did it "safely" at home. And she had contact with Albert but never was able to "stay" long enough. It's not clear to me that her motivation was the same over time.




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Reply #83 on: July 22, 2008, 10:01:04 PM
I guess this is a problem of definition, who qualifies as a CHILD and who is a teenager, which in my definition has a very strong sexual component to it. Tara, as I imagined her while listening to the story, had nothing sexual about her, and comparing her to other CHILDREN her age who use the 'Something-Dreaming-Game' for sexual pleasure did not make sense to me. Therefore, Tara was shown as the exception from the rule, since she used the game to communicate with aliens rather than to get some kind of pleasure out of it. So I for one was glad Elizabeth Bear did NOT write about a nine-year-old (? was that her age, can't remember) Tara having sex and doing drugs etc. for whatever reason. I still see childhood as somewhat sacred and if that makes me a prude then so be it, but when we are talking about a teenager at about say 14, well, then that is a different issue.

I'm not really sure about the motivation for the choking game in Tara's case. Her older friend taught it to her in the hospital. Tara did it "safely" at home. And she had contact with Albert but never was able to "stay" long enough. It's not clear to me that her motivation was the same over time.



I think you can make a stronger statement than that - it's clear that the motivation was not the same, at least not the first time she did it. She couldn't have known about the alien at the time, so she must have been doing it for the same reason the other kids were - it was "fun".

That said, I don't think the children are doing anything *overtly* sexual - saying that children are getting a kick out of enjoying themselves that is partially or wholly sexual doesn't mean they understand the sexual element in it. Most of the children doing it probably know they enjoy it and don't have the experience or perspective necessary to know it's a sexual enjoyment.

But as the narrator said very early on, if you think children don't experience sexual pleasure until puberty (hell, most infants masturbate), or that they don't experiment with their sexuality, then you don't remember being a child.



wakela

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Reply #84 on: July 22, 2008, 11:46:15 PM
Quote from: slowmovingthing
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter
I'm not 100% convinced that the daughter received an info dump.  I think Bear intends that she did, but it's more likely that she never experienced an actual alien contact, and her weirdness at the end is the result of brain damage.  Though the mother may prefer not to believe that.

I hear this story on a SF podcast so I think maybe she talked to aliens.  But if I had heard it in real life there is no way I would believe that.

Damn man, you did it to me again.  More than a week after I listen to a story, you come along and give me an entirely different perspective on the ending.  Since the daughter hasn't started spouting great wisdom, there is nothing to directly contradict your reading of it.

It's all part of my evil plan to make you ... well, I haven't worked it out that far yet.  But somehow it leads to "profit."  However...

Quote from: wintermute
The fact that the implant's memory was filled up with the equivalent of 25 Libraries of Congress (or whatever it was) is obviously intended to be proof that an alien society has downloaded everything they deemed important to her. But it could equally be a glitch in the table of contents.
I had missed this and I think Wintermute is right.  Though it could be a glitch, I think Bear intends it to be very strong evidence that the kid was talking to aliens. 
Sorry Russell, it seems my messing with your head was unwarranted this time.  But I'll be back.  Oh yes, my friend.  I'll be back.



JoeFitz

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Reply #85 on: July 22, 2008, 11:52:41 PM
i assume that you're talking about Spears seven or eight years past (showing your age a little =P), back when she was dressing like a schoolgirl and claiming chastity.

Good thing I didn't use the Brooke Shields reference I had intended, then. ;)



wakela

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Reply #86 on: July 23, 2008, 12:02:06 AM
Quote from: deflective
unsupported claims are discounted and mocked in the standard hollywood formula. it's a cheap way to build some outraged sympathy. these glasses let you see aliens? no way. there's a monster in the window behind me? i'm not gonna fall for that. you say that your friends were brutally devoured in the basement? good joke.
This is a good point, but I actually think the opposite.  Unsupported claims shouldn't necessarily be mocked, but they should be discounted.  I think people in movies are too credulous.  In your examples I would probably turn around and look out the window because the cost to me is very small, but the odds that the glasses are some kind of joke are way higher than seeing aliens.  And there is no way I would believe someone's friends were devoured in the basement without a lot of solid evidence.  

In this story we have a little girl who is depriving her brain of oxygen then claiming to see aliens.  As I mentioned in an above post, I had a hard time believing the aliens were real in a science fiction story.  So I agree that it seems like very risky behavior for a mother and a doctor to deliberately starve a child of oxygen in the hopes that she won't do it again.  I don't remember if she said that this would be the last time she would try to communicate with Albert, but even if she did I don't think a mother and a doctor could watch a child choke herself any more than they could watch her drop acid.

And hey, even if the mother was 100% sure her little girl was talking with alien scientists, it is still very dangerous behavior.  She wouldn't let her child spend time alone with a human being she doesn't know, much less an alien.



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Reply #87 on: July 23, 2008, 08:19:56 PM
As for the mother stopping the doctor helping her daughter; this didn't break character for me.  She desperatly wanted to believe that her daughter was not crazy, no matter how crazy some actions seemed.  She wanted to believe in her daughter beyond everything rational that she knew.  It was a gut instinct move.  Almost an act of passion.

I like this explanation.  My initial reaction (based on what I've always been told about a mother's protectiveness) was that stalling the Heimlich was really pushing suspension of disbelief.  But other clues in the story reinforce the idea that Tara's mother may instinctively prefer to believe that her daughter is rational, principled and determined instead of hallucinating, contrary and addicted to oxygen deprivation.  To save her daughter she's prepared to delay resuscitation and slightly increase the risk to her daughter's life.

I think that it is intended this way -- maybe it's just the audio form obscuring the hints, but I could have done with a slightly more explicit nudge towards this interpretation, because it's quite radical (for most readers, I imagine, not just me).

Overall, good story.  I think the visceral reactions in this thread show why auto-asphyxiation added meaning that simple child-disease-victim scenarios don't carry.



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Reply #88 on: July 24, 2008, 01:34:50 AM
ok I do not post often here. But i have been Listening for a long time.

This is the first and only Escape Pod I have ever turned off.

THIS STORY FREAKED ME THE FUCK OUT <sorry for the cursing> 2 mins in to this story i was like OMG and just turn it off.

I've been listening in short segments and haven't gotten very far.  This has been an interesting discussion to read, but I won't be listening to the rest of the story.  It's just way too disturbing to the mommy in me.



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Reply #89 on: July 24, 2008, 03:06:17 AM
ok I do not post often here. But i have been Listening for a long time.

This is the first and only Escape Pod I have ever turned off.

THIS STORY FREAKED ME THE FUCK OUT <sorry for the cursing> 2 mins in to this story i was like OMG and just turn it off.

I've been listening in short segments and haven't gotten very far.  This has been an interesting discussion to read, but I won't be listening to the rest of the story.  It's just way too disturbing to the mommy in me.

Even though there have been a few stories I haven't liked at all, there isn't an Escape Pod or Podcastle yet that I haven't listened to from front to back.  A story really has to be made of suck for me to abandon it. 

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deflective

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Reply #90 on: July 24, 2008, 03:47:14 AM
Quote from: deflective
unsupported claims are discounted and mocked in the standard hollywood formula. it's a cheap way to build some outraged sympathy. these glasses let you see aliens? no way. there's a monster in the window behind me? i'm not gonna fall for that. you say that your friends were brutally devoured in the basement? good joke.

This is a good point, but I actually think the opposite.  Unsupported claims shouldn't necessarily be mocked, but they should be discounted.  I think people in movies are too credulous.  In your examples I would probably turn around and look out the window because the cost to me is very small, but the odds that the glasses are some kind of joke are way higher than seeing aliens.  And there is no way I would believe someone's friends were devoured in the basement without a lot of solid evidence.

i wasn't quite clear. unsupported claims definitely shouldn't be accepted at face value but the person making the claim should be given a fair shake to make their case. dismissing them out of hand or (all too often in movies) actively working against them is a negligent & irrational act.

what exactly the fair shake should be depends both on the credibility of the person and the nature of the claim. this process is a common sense extension of scientific method & peer review which is why i have a tough time calling Jillian's actions irrational.

Roney did a reasonable job putting it in emotional terms:
To save her daughter she's prepared to delay resuscitation and slightly increase the risk to her daughter's life.
although that's a bit melodramatic. i didn't think that Jillian was particularly vested that Tara was actually talking to aliens, just willing to give her the chance to work things out while under medical supervision.

I don't remember if she said that this would be the last time she would try to communicate with Albert, but even if she did I don't think a mother and a doctor could watch a child choke herself any more than they could watch her drop acid.

how about running an electric current through her? if it would help her resolve self destructive issues and function in society?

And hey, even if the mother was 100% sure her little girl was talking with alien scientists, it is still very dangerous behavior.  She wouldn't let her child spend time alone with a human being she doesn't know, much less an alien.

it would be a little tragic to deny your child's wish to be humanity's first contact ambassador because the unknown scares you. =)



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Reply #91 on: July 25, 2008, 05:39:52 AM
it would be a little tragic to deny your child's wish to be humanity's first contact ambassador because the unknown scares you. =)
I know this has little to do with what you were gettiing at, but something that one line brought to my mind is the notion of parents' anxiety over their kids making frequent and unsupervised use of email, instant messaging, and such. More so if the parents are not as internet-savvy as their kids, other than what they learn from Fox News Infotainment. "What are they saying and reading, and who are they saying it to? School chums, or middle-aged perverts posing as kids?"

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Reply #92 on: July 25, 2008, 11:56:58 AM
I know this has little to do with what you were gettiing at, but something that one line brought to my mind is the notion of parents' anxiety over their kids making frequent and unsupervised use of email, instant messaging, and such. More so if the parents are not as internet-savvy as their kids, other than what they learn from Fox News Infotainment. "What are they saying and reading, and who are they saying it to? School chums, or middle-aged perverts posing as kids aliens?"
Let's tie that back into the story ;)

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Reply #93 on: July 29, 2008, 10:14:49 PM
I know this has little to do with what you were gettiing at, but something that one line brought to my mind is the notion of parents' anxiety over their kids making frequent and unsupervised use of email, instant messaging, and such. More so if the parents are not as internet-savvy as their kids, other than what they learn from Fox News Infotainment. "What are they saying and reading, and who are they saying it to? School chums, or middle-aged perverts posing as kids aliens?"
Let's tie that back into the story ;)

  "Hello, Albert. Why don't you take a seat over there? So what were your plans here tonight alone with this young girl?"

  "I was going to pass on the history of my people to her before I disappear."

  "Is that so? That's not what you say in your chat logs here...."



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Reply #94 on: July 20, 2010, 04:39:47 PM
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter after the alien info dump and bene gesserit reverend mothers who go through the spice agony (another kind of massive info dump (and more))?

I thought of Dune too.  I've only read the first book, but the girl born near the end of that one made me think of this.



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Reply #95 on: July 20, 2010, 04:50:10 PM
I'm very conflicted about this story.  I like the quantum communication element, and the child being the ambassador to the aliens, the building of language through games in a child's mind.

But auto-asphyxiation just creeps me the hell out.  Count me under those who'd never heard of it as a kid--and I had one friend who was into pretty much ANYTHING so I think if he'd heard about it he would've told me.  The first I'd heard of it was probably around high school age on some cop show, where they find someone who's hanged themselves in the closet, but they learn that it was not a suicide but a botched autoerotic asphyxiation.  Even for adults it made me shudder thinking of strangling yourself for pleasure, and even more so when it's kids.  I don't know if it was common in general, but I sure never heard about it, so it's definitely not ALL kids and I really doubt that it's MOST kids either.

And, while the asphyxiation of the girl in the story did not appear to be erotic, the story began with a huge lecture about auto-erotic asphyxiation, so I just assumed throughout that it was the case--I didn't realize until this comment thread that the story never actually said that.



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Reply #96 on: July 20, 2010, 08:35:55 PM
I thought of Dune too.  I've only read the first book...

Lucky you.  Recommend you leave it that way.

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