Author Topic: EP245: The Moment  (Read 26653 times)

kibitzer

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Reply #25 on: June 20, 2010, 08:58:18 AM
I, too, got a bit lost due to the complexity of the story.

Good reading though, kibitzer. Good to hear new stepping up to the plate and getting involved. You must've had a busy week - sounded like you did pseudopod too.   Do I detect a trace of devonshire accent in there?

Thanks man! Devonshire? Well, maybe... I spent 7 years in the UK, but I'm an Aussie. As for busy, it's just the luck o' the draw. I actually did those recordings several months apart.


Dem

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Reply #26 on: June 20, 2010, 12:25:28 PM
 ??? I can see some people liked this so clearly I'm missing something but what I think I didn't miss was a hugely predictable ending for which I had to endure a pompous, turgid lecture replete with pseudo-science (I too have a PhD, and a couple of other post grad odds and ends, in cognitive sciences) and gratuitous self important waffle. It's a pity, there is a fine story in there somewhere but what happened to 'show don't tell'? Some people have made the point that the story doesn't lend itself to audio and I suspect that's because, in the written form, we would be able to re-read at our own pace in order to make sense of it, although I doubt that would actually be achieved. It seems to me that this is essentially incomprehensible (whilst being blindingly obvious at the same time) and so a bit of a con. I'm shocked it's a Hugo nominee, I think it is little more than intellectualised Emperor's new clothes. I must congratulate the narrator though on succeeding in articulating this obstacle course of a tale without choking!

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Reply #27 on: June 21, 2010, 08:10:33 PM
I find it hard to believe that no other species would take an achievement, and not build on it, as the story seems to indicate that Humans were unique in doing.  I really liked the imaginative species and their different reasons for coming to the spot, but the story itself seemed more like a shoddy scaffolding to hang the wonderfully thought-out species on. 

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Reply #28 on: June 21, 2010, 08:20:11 PM
I find it hard to believe that no other species would take an achievement, and not build on it, as the story seems to indicate that Humans were unique in doing.

This has long been a complaint of mine. In much of science fiction, it seems like Mankind is utterly unique in some way common to us (our Indomitable Will To Survive!) or utterly unremarkable and not worth much. There never seems to be anything in between.

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Reply #29 on: June 22, 2010, 01:36:10 PM
I find it hard to believe that no other species would take an achievement, and not build on it, as the story seems to indicate that Humans were unique in doing.  I really liked the imaginative species and their different reasons for coming to the spot, but the story itself seemed more like a shoddy scaffolding to hang the wonderfully thought-out species on. 

I agree, and this story made that even worse by having the aliens say specifically "they didn't do anything that other sentient species haven't done before or since".  So why is this location different?  Oh, because humans are special, of course.



Liminal

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Reply #30 on: June 22, 2010, 03:44:40 PM
Isn't each moment unique?

I totally get the whole reaction against another in a long line of "human's are the most unique species ever," but I'm not convinced that this moment is any less worthy than other moments or that there aren't other moments scattered throughout the universe that mean as much or more.

Sure, the ending is a bit of a love letter to the human race, but it seems to me that the point of the story is that this particular moment is neither less nor more unique than any other moment. Rather, it is the mindfulness with which the moment is approached that makes the difference.

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davedoty

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Reply #31 on: June 22, 2010, 10:27:23 PM
Sure, the ending is a bit of a love letter to the human race, but it seems to me that the point of the story is that this particular moment is neither less nor more unique than any other moment. Rather, it is the mindfulness with which the moment is approached that makes the difference.

Considering that the moment echoes down, influencing people who don't even know what happened there, I don't think that's a defensible interpretation, to be honest.  People who approach the location of the moment with no mindfulness at all are overwhelmed with a sense of importance.



kibitzer

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Reply #32 on: June 22, 2010, 10:47:12 PM
Considering that the moment echoes down, influencing people who don't even know what happened there, I don't think that's a defensible interpretation, to be honest.  People who approach the location of the moment with no mindfulness at all are overwhelmed with a sense of importance.

I think it is defensible. I know the story is called "THE Moment" but I don't believe the story itself implies it is the ONLY moment in the universe. It is one of many, it's just this particular one is a human moment.


davedoty

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Reply #33 on: June 22, 2010, 10:56:16 PM
I think it is defensible. I know the story is called "THE Moment" but I don't believe the story itself implies it is the ONLY moment in the universe. It is one of many, it's just this particular one is a human moment.

I agree that it doesn't imply that it's the only moment, and I don't believe I implied that.  What I don't believe is a defensible position is that the moment only gains importance because of the mindfulness with which it is approached.  That view is clearly and explicitly at odds with the story itself, in which people are overwhelmed with the importance of the place even when approached by beings with no knowledge of or mindfulness towards what happened there.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that people argue that this is the only moment that ever was.  It seems to be a bit of a straw man.



eytanz

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Reply #34 on: June 22, 2010, 11:09:34 PM
Considering that the moment echoes down, influencing people who don't even know what happened there, I don't think that's a defensible interpretation, to be honest.  People who approach the location of the moment with no mindfulness at all are overwhelmed with a sense of importance.

I think it is defensible. I know the story is called "THE Moment" but I don't believe the story itself implies it is the ONLY moment in the universe. It is one of many, it's just this particular one is a human moment.

I agree with Davedoty's puzzlement, as the fact that the moment was not unique (which, indeed, is explicitly stated in the story) is not under attack by anyone, and is irrelevant to both Liminal's reading and Davedoty's criticism of that reading as being at odds with the story itself.

That said, the ending of the story makes it clear that while they are other moments, it is not the case that every time a species first leaves its planet a moment is created - indeed, the student godling at the end makes the same point. What makes this particular footprint so unique was that, unlike in other cases, the human race did not take a step back, but rather "jumped off". That's vague enough to support a lot of interpretations, but I think all of them must be based on the principle that the human race is somehow more special than others at the same position.

Also, and this didn't occur to me until now, this seems like a story in denial, given that the human race very much *did* take a step back in its space exploration after setting foot in the moon. At the most generous, it can be said that our next step into space in a tentative, cautious one. Now sure, in the timespan of millions of years it can be thought that the past 4.5 decades are insignificant, and maybe once we do restart our space programs in earnest then the current time period will be viewed as a small blip. *BUT* and this is crucial, the story argues that the universe chose to maintain that one spot in history because of the absence of any hesitation on the part of humanity. Whatever it is we did, we did not jump.

My distaste for the ending of this story grows the more I think of it.



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Reply #35 on: June 23, 2010, 02:21:27 AM
Oh, God, this story bored the photons out of me. I hate to say things like that, but I can't think of any other way to say it. I have heard enough stories about "the universe is long, the universe is big, you are small, but maybe kind of special." I get it already. Like The Moment, these stories are almost always too long and too dense and without meaningful character or character development. Perhaps I found it striking the first time I heard it, maybe the second time, but by now I'm just bored.

I want to say something good, but I'm not sure what I can. Of course, a story like this has no characters and not plot to speak of, but usually I can at least enjoy the aliens. The aliens in this one, though, weren't even terribly imaginative. The narrator slipped almost immediately into incomprehensibly different from humanity territory without the usual sojourn in the interestingly different from humanity zone.

I thought Wind from a Dying Star (http://escapepod.org/2010/02/13/ep238-wind-from-a-dying-star/) was infinitely better while still being about the fragility and smallness of humanity against galactic-scale space and time. That story had character, plot, and interesting creatures.

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Listener

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Reply #36 on: June 23, 2010, 12:56:12 PM
I liked this story because I like universe-spanning stories. I liked the fact that the commentator at the beginning got killed by Neil Armstrong's footprint. I liked the Broccoli People. I liked Norm's intro.

However, I really dislike stories where something humans did is so universe-spanningly-important that it becomes a focal point for every race that comes afterward. I mean REALLY dislike. Plus, I'm really depressed by the current state of the space programs on Earth these days -- only governments are given any real gravitas, and it seems like every time someone private tries to go into space (space tourists, Richard Branson), the mainstream media belittles them and makes them seem ridiculous for even trying. (Honestly, if Russia could get more space tourists and use the money to hire away NASA scientists*, I bet they could be the space powerhouses they used to be.)

* I'm sure there are secrecy and clearance and NDA issues, but for the sake of argument, just go with me here.

So once I figured out that it was Neil Armstrong's footprint (which I would've known if I'd known the topic of Footprints), I got really disgusted with the story itself. If I was a Hugo voter, that alone would've precluded me from voting for it.

The reading was good, although I would've appreciated longer pauses between the segments (really more an editing issue).

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Reply #37 on: June 23, 2010, 04:44:55 PM
I agree with Davedoty's puzzlement, as the fact that the moment was not unique (which, indeed, is explicitly stated in the story) is not under attack by anyone, and is irrelevant to both Liminal's reading and Davedoty's criticism of that reading as being at odds with the story itself.

That said, the ending of the story makes it clear that while they are other moments, it is not the case that every time a species first leaves its planet a moment is created - indeed, the student godling at the end makes the same point. What makes this particular footprint so unique was that, unlike in other cases, the human race did not take a step back, but rather "jumped off". That's vague enough to support a lot of interpretations, but I think all of them must be based on the principle that the human race is somehow more special than others at the same position.

Exactly!  And it said explicitly that moments without any observable uniqueness are EXTREMELY rare, so that does imply that humans are special but only in the vaguest of ways.



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #38 on: June 23, 2010, 09:52:19 PM
This one IS a bit of a tough listen because it's so conceptually dense -- it may be easier to read. I think it gets better if you re-read it (or re-listen or whatever).

Thanks for the kind comments on my reading. I'm trying to improve my recording rig so I'll watch out for stray noises and such.

I thought you did a good job, too.  I don't know whether that means more coming from another reader.  :)

As to the stray mouth noises, my readings have them too - it's just something that happens - and I edit them out with Audacity or some similar software.  I always go back and listen to what I've recorded anyway, reading along to check if I made any errors that I didn't notice at the time, and I take out lip smacks, swallowing noises and whatever at the same time.

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Reply #39 on: June 23, 2010, 09:54:55 PM
The good Professor mounted his linguistic hobbyhorse, and asked for his audience's indulgence as he galloped it around the ring.  Whilst initially I was entertained by the references to Groucho and Gummo etc... which were clever - the solopsistic pirourettes of language the author attempted left me hungry for something more.  However, when I looked into my bag of popcorn - I found it filled with broccoli!  The disappointment was intense.
The reading left me with indegestion and exceeded my indulgence.  Sorry

This post was better by far than the story itself.

Well, it might have been, if "solipsistic", "pirouettes" and "indigestion" had been spelt correctly, the word "while" used instead of the pretentious "whilst", and correct punctuation used.

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Reply #40 on: June 26, 2010, 05:54:44 AM
The good Professor mounted his linguistic hobbyhorse, and asked for his audience's indulgence as he galloped it around the ring.  Whilst initially I was entertained by the references to Groucho and Gummo etc... which were clever - the solopsistic pirourettes of language the author attempted left me hungry for something more.  However, when I looked into my bag of popcorn - I found it filled with broccoli!  The disappointment was intense.
The reading left me with indegestion and exceeded my indulgence.  Sorry

This post was better by far than the story itself.

Well, it might have been, if "solipsistic", "pirouettes" and "indigestion" had been spelt correctly, the word "while" used instead of the pretentious "whilst", and correct punctuation used.

No, better even so.  The story did absolutely nothing for me, while Danvaf's post gave me a brief smile.

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alllie

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Reply #41 on: June 27, 2010, 01:20:12 PM
I still do not understand....the ending.



Scattercat

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Reply #42 on: June 27, 2010, 06:32:45 PM
*Glances around the room

*Shuffles over to stand next to eytanz and ElectricPaladin

*Shrugs

I had a feeling this would be that kind of story just from the title.  It definitely fulfilled my expectations in that respect.  Basically, take my mild distaste for the way "Thargus and Brian" assumed that loser slackerdom actually made people as special as loser slackers think they are, and then make a story that plays that feeling as totally straight and without irony (and tries to have "wacky" humor in the bargain.)

I listened to this out of loyalty to Escape Artists in general, to Escape Pod and Norm Sherman in particular, and because I could have been wrong about where it was going.

P.S. - Kibitzer, what was up with the sudden sharp silences?  I kept thinking the story had ended or my iPod had died...  It wasn't bad per se, it just sounded like someone cut the sound with a razor and it was a little startling.



El Barto

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Reply #43 on: June 28, 2010, 03:12:18 AM
This was one of the few EP stories I've read twice because it was so dense.  If your attention wanders for 30 seconds a million years pass and a new species is front and center.

Second time through I really loved the world building and the idea of absorbing memories from dead bodies.  But I hated the ending for the reasons many folks already listed above about the type of story that shows humanity to have been unique for some special profound reason.

After reading all the comments in the thread, however, I speculate that the author's intention is mostly to prod us to explore the heavens.  To make the point that any chump of a species can go to their moon but it takes real balls to invest time, treasure, and lives to explore the stars without knowing if anything is out there worth finding.   

Right now our society seems to have lost the fire for exploration and this story says to me that if we don't get going and explore we won't be special at all, unless they someday have a booby prize for intelligent beings who "could have" explored space but couldn't even get their act together to give it a half-assed try.

And finally, I have to say how great it is to get a bonus dose of Norm Sherman here on EP.  His Drabblecast has become my favorite podcast. 

El Barto




kibitzer

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Reply #44 on: June 28, 2010, 09:54:23 AM
P.S. - Kibitzer, what was up with the sudden sharp silences?  I kept thinking the story had ended or my iPod had died...  It wasn't bad per se, it just sounded like someone cut the sound with a razor and it was a little startling.

Not sure what you mean there, Cat. Just listened again to a bit of what I submitted -- couldn't detect the razor-sharp silences. In all probability, your young ears are far better than mine. :-)


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Reply #45 on: June 28, 2010, 10:44:48 AM
Like, the bits where you're talking, there's a bit of a background hiss/murmur, and then it just goes "   !"  I think it was an editing artifact, but it really kept sounding like my ancient iPod finally died.  I just wondered if there was a huge sound disparity between the recording locale and the editing local or some such.



gateaux

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Reply #46 on: July 02, 2010, 04:27:26 AM
One of the few Escape Pods I didn't like too much... nothing in this story engaged me.



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Reply #47 on: July 03, 2010, 01:47:37 AM
Good concept, but the finished product didn't work.  It quickly went from a "hm, where is this going" to "oh, it's one of those humans are special stories."  The other species were all interesting and I liked how they were sort of connected.  However as the story developed I kept thinking that with a few changes this could be one of the more pretentious Star Trek: TNG stories.



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Reply #48 on: July 04, 2010, 03:52:19 AM
The good Professor mounted his linguistic hobbyhorse, and asked for his audience's indulgence as he galloped it around the ring.  Whilst initially I was entertained by the references to Groucho and Gummo etc... which were clever - the solopsistic pirourettes of language the author attempted left me hungry for something more.  However, when I looked into my bag of popcorn - I found it filled with broccoli!  The disappointment was intense.
The reading left me with indegestion and exceeded my indulgence.  Sorry

Daniel
Yeah, what he said. It was like listening to a Joe Satriani performance. The first and last 30 seconds are okay, but the middle bits are "hey, look what I can do!"
I listened to it with the intention of having it provide entertainment while I performed the chore of washing the dishes. Sadly, it ended up being the other way around.

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rotheche

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Reply #49 on: July 04, 2010, 08:39:19 AM
I actually quite enjoyed it, both for the humour in the shifting experiences of the footprint, from the broadcaster to the proto-gods. The kicker - for me anyway - was that it wasn't Neil Armstrong's footprint.  "It was where they jumped off": it was someone else's footprint, one left on the way forwards.  Or that's how I heard it anyway.  That footprint hasn't been left yet :)