EP251: Unexpected Outcomes

[Wilson Fowlie]

If that's the case, then any criticism of Tim.1 at the time of the event is totally a criticism of Tim.0.  This will be less true as time goes on, but I'm not sure it's clear how much time has actually passed (I may have missed that) so I'm assuming it's not terribly long after the event

I assumed it took place a little under 9 years after the (aborted) attack, at least in simulation time.  (Doing a little web-searching, I find that it was more likely to be closer to 7 years, given that it was published in the June 2009 issue of Interzone and had to go through the submission process before that.)

[Talia]

Well, addressing your various points here and there - the thing is the story is meant to be a political pamphlet. His tone in the last paragraph is not addressed to Real Unblinking, but Fake Scientific Experiment Unblinking. You're not supposed to draw comparisons to Real Tim, aside from "well, that didn't happen, so this is what happened to the Real Tim instead". Because, well, he's not talking to YOU! :p

This will be less true as time goes on, but I'm not sure it's clear how much time has actually passed (I may have missed that) so I'm assuming it's not terribly long after the event--yes, the catastrophic event can change people, but he reacts the same way that Tim.0 would react because the simulation is supposed to be so exact.  So if Tim.1 says something which bothers me, it's not quite so easy for me to just say Tim.0 does not equal Tim.1.

Enough time has passed for his then-girlfriend to leave him and his hopes and dreams of them sharing a future and having a family to crash and burn, pretty much destroying a huge and very important part of his life. If that isn't completely personally altering I don't know what would be. Anyway, who can say for sure how any of us would react if we found out we were not real? You can't really make an accurate assessment of that. Heh.

However enough major stuff has gone on in his life that I think its pretty fair to say Tim 2 in the last paragraph is fairly different from Tim the Original.

(this is all a little weird to write about).

[Wilson Fowlie]

A little?

[Talia]

OK more than a little, I guess. :p I hope I'm not inadvertently crossing any lines for the sake of literary analysis.

[eytanz]

But point three? I did not get that feeling at ALL. I strongly suspect your feelings on the ending were heavily influenced by the fact the story was already strongly not to your taste on two different points.

I don't think that I interpreted the ending that way only because I disliked the story.  If I recall correctly, the final paragraph paraphrased along the lines of "If I had continued uninterrupted in that other world, I wonder if I would have become a famous writer.  So famous that no one could resist my name appeal.  Well, you're reading this, aren't you?"

I don't think this is a fair paraphrase.

I think a more accurate paraphrase is "If I didn't live in a screwed-up experiment, maybe I would have been a famous writer. Actually, come to think of it, in this screwed up experiment I am a famous writer, as you (other people in experiment world) are reading my pamphlets."

[Anarkey]

But point three? I did not get that feeling at ALL. I strongly suspect your feelings on the ending were heavily influenced by the fact the story was already strongly not to your taste on two different points.

I don't think that I interpreted the ending that way only because I disliked the story.  If I recall correctly, the final paragraph paraphrased along the lines of "If I had continued uninterrupted in that other world, I wonder if I would have become a famous writer.  So famous that no one could resist my name appeal.  Well, you're reading this, aren't you?"

I don't think this is a fair paraphrase.

I think a more accurate paraphrase is "If I didn't live in a screwed-up experiment, maybe I would have been a famous writer. Actually, come to think of it, in this screwed up experiment I am a famous writer, as you (other people in experiment world) are reading my pamphlets."

I agree with eytanz, and would further note that the statement about how widely read the pamphlet is comes at a remove, as a "careful what you wish for" from the buddy.

[Scattercat]

I think it *is* fair to say that it's often hard to distinguish the authorial voice from a prominent main character's voice, and that line becomes even muddier and harder to dig out when the author is writing a literal self-insert.  It then becomes a little hard to react appropriately to the "character" of the author or to distinguish what is meta from what is within the story.

[Unblinking]

Well, addressing your various points here and there - the thing is the story is meant to be a political pamphlet. His tone in the last paragraph is not addressed to Real Unblinking, but Fake Scientific Experiment Unblinking. You're not supposed to draw comparisons to Real Tim, aside from "well, that didn't happen, so this is what happened to the Real Tim instead". Because, well, he's not talking to YOU! :p

I"m not sure that I picked up while reading that this was supposed to be on a pamphlet.  I knew that they were going to spread the word, but not that this was actually supposed to be the medium.

So, wait, the whole story was on the pamphlet?  If so, it wasn't a very well-written pamphlet. 
1.  That would be a very long pamphlet, how many folds does it have, 50?
2.  There's a lot of unnecessary exposition if the intended audience of the pamphlet lives in the simulated world--why would he have to describe in the pamphlet what everyone in the world would already have known?
3.  The ending also makes no sense as a pamphlet.  Why would his intended audience give a crap about his musings about what his other life would've been like.  Most likely they've already had the same musings and have no reason to be interested in the pamphleteer's own irrelevant musings.

The fact that it was on the pamphlet doesn't improve my opinion of the story.  It just doesn't make sense as the content of a pamphlet, so if it had been intended for that medium it would need to be much shorter and less explanatory of well-known events, as well as GETTING TO THE POINT OF THE PAMPHLET much faster.  If you think I have a short attention span on stories, it is much shorter if I'm glancing at a pamphlet.  Unless I'm trapped in a waiting room I will probably give up after a paragraph if it's not interesting enough.  Writing it in a way that made sense for a pamphlet probably would be hard to understand for those of us in our world who did not experience those events--but that doesn't change that it doesn't work well as a pamphlet.

And even with all that in mind, having the pamphlet refer to Tim.0 at the end was a mistake--if he hadn't done that, then the alternate interpretation that was my first conclusion would not have occurred.  I still wouldn't have liked the story, but at least it wouldn't have come across as a nose-thumbing at the end.  And did the reference to Tim.0 enhance the story in any way, even with the other interpretation?  It didn't seem like it to me.

[Talia]

Well, you have some points about rehashing stuff the intended audience probably already knew, though it personally worked just fine for me regardless. I would argue the length of the pamphlet was, well, he wanted to tell his whole story, not just an excerpt from it, to let other people know how he got to where he was, how he and his friend discovered the.. foldy.. uppy.. edge of the virtual reality or whatever, and why people should act on it.

Its also possible that only the last part is part of the pamphlet and the rest is just telling the story of how he came to author the pamphlet. I disagree that referring to Tim.0 was a mistake. How many other people were wondering what their "real" selves were like?? Most people, I imagine. He was relating to his audience by sharing his own experience. So yes, IMHO it did enhance the story.

I just don't get the "thumb nosing" at all - doesn't read like that to me in the least. So I dunno.

[Unblinking]

Its also possible that only the last part is part of the pamphlet and the rest is just telling the story of how he came to author the pamphlet.

Hmmm,, I thought I'd replied to this--guess I must have forgotten to hit "Post"? 

Anyway, maybe you're right that just the last part is the pamphlet--that would certainly make more sense, but it didn't really seem to be supported by anything in the story.  Don't pamphlets normally have titles to catch your attention?  I would've thought that if just the last part had been the pamphlet there would've been some title emphasized with capital-type emphasis, but I didn't note anything like that (maybe I missed it).

If the whole story is the pamphlet, then the title is also not very pamphletic.  If I see a pamphlet titled "Unexpected Outcomes" my eyes would not linger long enough on it for it to remain in my memory.  And, to boot, it doesn't really seem to be describing anything in particular.  What outcomes are unexpected, and who is not expecting them?  If Tim. 1 is trying to spread the word about the experiment, then why not have something that's more descriptive like "The Experiment Continues" or even something with more of a hook like "They Are Watching" or "Do You Know Why You Will Never See Rain Again?" or "Where Have All the Babies Gone?" or "WTF:  Why Wasn't Disease Discontinued?"

[DKT]

I don't have the text handy, but I heard it the same way Talia did - as the last part, where StoryTim is wondering what he would have been in the real world and making a call to arms, is reading from a pamphlet.

[Wilson Fowlie]

I don't have the text handy, but I heard it the same way Talia did - as the last part, where StoryTim is wondering what he would have been in the real world and making a call to arms, is reading from a pamphlet.

So did I, but I think that Unblinking makes a reasonable point: the whole story isn't - or shouldn't be - a pamphlet; it's too long.  But there wasn't anything that signified a transition from 'story' to 'flyer', at least not in the reading, so the listener (and maybe the reader, too) is left wondering if the whole thing is meant to be a pamphlet - in which case it suffers from the shortcomings Unblinking pointed out - or if not, just where the pamphlet part began.

[Heradel]

For what it's worth, the story itself says the following about it:

[...]we made this little 'zine, this chain letter, and started sending it around, updating it with new editions as we learn more. Pages pass from hand to hand, and some people read it out loud in town squares and the ruins of shopping malls, and some people shout my words over shortwave radio.

[Wilson Fowlie]

That seems more plausible than a pamphlet.  Thanks for the memory jog!

[Unblinking]

That seems more plausible than a pamphlet.  Thanks for the memory jog!

Yes, thanks, makes more sense as a chain letter. I'd still say it contains waaay too much information for its intended audience, sort of like me explaining several pages of details about September 11th as if y'all hadn't heard of it before, but it's better than a pamphlet at least.

[Talia]

Sorry, pamphlet was just me using a catchall phrase for "means with which to spread the word."

:/

[Peter Germany]

I really loved this story.  I'm not one for analysing stories massively but this one really took my attention.  Maybe it was because of the 9/11 refference that caught my attention.

I generally like Tim Pratt's work but this one has got me at the point where i will likely search out his work.

The pregnancy thing had accured to me also, as had why was the weather the easiest thing that could be 'turned off' and why not turn off things that had little use like Wasps.

I'm the type of consumer that appreciates a story whether its a great meaningful piece of work such as The Shawshank Redemption, or a mindless wham bam thank you work like the video game based film DOOM(Yes i'm using films to make my point)

Now i'm gonna go back through my itunes and pick out all the Tim Pratt stories and re-listen to them.

[FireTurtle]

I loved the whole experimental situation and the references to the Zimbardo and Milgram experiments.

I'm Milgram's daughter, and this story reminded me how when he died, sometimes those of us who knew him well would say that maybe that he wasn't really dead - that it was just another Milgram experiment so that our reactions could be observed. I"m sure if he were alive, I'd be sharing this story with him and discussing it with him.

Well, you had far more reason than I to really love that social psychology references actually made it into a story which is supposed to be about...social psychology on a grand scale. Its funny because the Prison Experiment leapt to my mind very early in the story just because I was thinking that if this really happened someone would probably blow up the planet. This is the dead opposite of the Milgram and Zimbardo findings- that essentially we are all a bunch of lemmings (I originally wrote lemurs...what the heck is going on in my brain?). I wonder what Dr. Z would think, also.

What would the outliers do?

And, more importantly I spent most of the story wondering...Where are all the social psychologists? Didn't they figure it out first? You can't tell me some random friend of Tim's is more likely to parse out the real experiment than a bunch of people that do it for a living? That was my sticking point.

Otherwise...interesting. Don't mind 9/11 reference. Could have been anything big, but for the story to work for me it would have to be within my lifetime. I mean, it would be interesting if the sim stopped at Hitler's invasion of Poland or Hiroshima but nobody would have known what a sim was back then and I wouldn't have been able to relate. So, 9/11 is ok by me.

[KaylingR]

I confess I held my breath when Tim Pratt the Realer invoked 9/11. But in the end, It got a chuckle from me.  Okay, word that we may all be part of a simulation would be a bigger game-changer than the actual events of 9/11. Well played.

Likewise when Tim Pratt the Character wondered about whoever had been the inspiration for Tim Pratt the Character.  When first introduced to the multiple universes idea, who hasn't wondered if they'd be better or worse off? The 'Careful what you wish for,' made the famous author speculation work for me, but I thought Tim Pratt the Realer was sharing his ambitions (because it did seem to be an innate trait of original and simulation) rather than bragging about his success.

I liked the transition to the pamphlet.  It was clear from the narrator's tone, and shift to 2nd person.  It reminded me of this little 18th century zine "Common Sense."  (Not a short read either, btw  )

In short, I liked this.  It made me chuckle, it made me think. 

[Ocicat]

And, more importantly I spent most of the story wondering...Where are all the social psychologists? Didn't they figure it out first? You can't tell me some random friend of Tim's is more likely to parse out the real experiment than a bunch of people that do it for a living? That was my sticking point.

Ahh, but you see, the programmers KNEW that the social psychologists would figure it out, so everyone who had a psychology degree was wasn't faithfully reproduced.  Instead of recreating the real persons brain and thought patterns, they just inserted an Eliza script.  No one ever figured it out.

[mccicecream]

I really enjoyed this story. Right from the beginning, I was interested enough to not even begin to doze on my morning train ride.

I kept looking at how many minutes were left in the story to try to guess how it was going to end. I think I would have liked a little more at the ending, but I can't really imagine what.

I also liked the snarky names of the 'doctor' throughout.

The sound quality was distracting at first, but I managed to ignore it once I got into the story.

Thanks!

[El Barto]

Having fallen a month or so behind the posting of new Escape Pod episodes I have the added treat of being able to listen to a story and then see a month's worth of discussion.   The discussion in this thread fascinates me for a bunch of reasons, both for what it focused on and for what it didn't focus on.

I liked this story a great deal.  In part because it could be absolutely positively 100% true right now:  For all we know our world blinked into existence this morning and we were all imbued with false memories and the researchers are watching us right now.   Creepy.

I also liked how just when I was getting suspicious about the plot, Tim dropped the big twist on us.

I was surprised, however, that none of the characters (and no one here) took the Holodeck hint to move the conversation in the direction of trying to convince the experimenters to liberate them from the simulation.   (I'm sure most of you remember when Moriarty took control of the Enterprise and tried to force the crew to bring him into the real world.)

If I were in the simulation I think I would realize that in the future there are (1) obviously unbelievably powerful supercomputers; (2) beings who view certain advanced forms of artificial intelligence as sentient; and (3) the future researchers probably have the ability to transfer my consciousness into an artificial (or real vat-grown) human body.   I'd be making my pitch to be set free!

Lastly, the use of 9/11 as a plot point seemed perfectly reasonable.  I live a few blocks from the Pentagon and worked a few blocks from Ground Zero and think about it often as one of the defining terrible parts of our generation.  To that end, it seems to be well worth study and analysis by people in the future who will hopefully find such an attack so abhorrent and bizarre as to merit running such a simulation.

The only thing I didn't like about the story was the squeaky chair during the narration but that non-story issue was more than outweighed by the excellence of Norm Sherman as host.

[LaShawn]

This is the 2nd meta story I've heard on EscapePod. Unlike Benjamin Rosenbaum's story, I reeeeeally liked this one. I don't know why--maybe it's because I'm more familiar with Tim Pratt, so I was able to catch the meta more easily. Given, I found the 9/11 part a bit odd, but on the whole, I really enjoyed this. The ending had me laughing out loud. In fact, it makes me want to give Rosenbaum's story another read. Maybe I'll get it more now.

[Gorbash]

I tend to save up Escape Artist stories for long drives, which sometimes mean they can blend together - however, certain stories stand out in my memory.  This is one such.  Of course, coming from Tim Pratt, the chances of that happening were pretty good.

[yicheng]

Interesting concept, reminding me of the 13th Floor movie.  The story was well-written and well-read.  I had lots of fun listening to it, but it felt a bit like snacking on pop-corn: You have fun doing it, but then you're just left with a blank feeling, an empty bucket, and greasy fingers.  There was a lot of potential, but it was ultimately a pointless romp for me.  I would have like to have seen more stories about the characters in this world, as there are a lot of philosophical questions to explore.  If you knew definitely that nobody really existed, and that there were absolutely no moral consequences, wouldn't that give you license to rape, murder, steal, kick small kittens?  Also, how would you know or prove sentience or free will?  For that matter how do you even know that your own memories are real?