Author Topic: Where to look for writers  (Read 15491 times)

Swamp

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Reply #25 on: August 13, 2010, 06:05:18 AM
You know I really hate coming in to polls and moderating disputes. (Hmm maybe I took the wrong job).  I think some interesting discussion could result out of this (and some already has), but if it becomes a trading of insults, what is the fun in that?  The honest reactions and criticism, the defense and clarifications, even the spirited debate, is fine.  The personal insults back and forth need to stop.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 06:07:34 AM by Swamp »

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Scattercat

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Reply #26 on: August 13, 2010, 06:11:51 AM
I'd like to clarify that I really bear no particular malice, but I am also sincere in my desire not to write for any webcomic that has nude drawings of its characters for sale to fans on a subscription basis.  I hope Drow-Fella finds someone to help him write his comics (and I really think that, y'know, not coming across as completely dismissive of the effort involved will help.)

Let's talk about whether giving stuff away for free is awesome or not.  I think it's awesome as long as you realize that it's not actually a path to earning lots of money via real-world cheat code.



falconesse

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Reply #27 on: August 13, 2010, 08:46:12 AM
I run under the assumption that 300 words is relatively quick to write where an artist has to take at least 8 to 10 hours for each page.  If you are telling me it takes a professional writer 1.6 minutes for each word those better be some pretty amazing words.  Again here on planet earth if something takes longer to do you generally get paid more money for it.  So in earth comics the artists get paid more per page because the earth writers can generate 300 words pretty quickly. The only possible explanation I can come up with is on your plane of existence you use some strange symbolic mathematical hybrid language that alters the very fabric of reality and that's why it takes you so long on each word you write.

Actually, no, writing 300 good words isn't all that easy.  The fact that you've come onto a writers' board and suggested that it is is pretty damned insulting.

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I suggested 3 cents a word same pay rate as Escape Pod and Clark's World.

If you're talking about Clarkesworld, actually, they pay ten cents a word -- twice the minimum SFWA professional rate.

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Not good enough.  I also suggested 1.5 cents a page with a possible share of the revenues.  Seeing that two of my comics NET about $400 a month that's not chump change but again I didn't mention that because it is a gamble and i don't want to mislead people.  Places like the Drabblecast pay 1.5 cent per word with no profit sharing.  I though that I was offering a good deal.  But, no, that is also an insult.

With places like Drabblecast, Escape Pod, and Clarkesworld, the writers get paid up front.  And they retain the copyright to their work, so if they'd like to sell it elsewhere as a reprint, they can get paid for it again.  If no one ever reads their story, or if the website goes down in a year due to lack of readership/listenership, they still have something to show for it.  You're offering a penny and a half a page.

I'm currently shopping around a 7000-word story.  In standard manuscript format, that's about 250 words per page.  So, about 28 pages.  Under your model, that story would get 42 cents from you, with any future payment being a big ol' maybe.  It's great that two of your comics are bringing in $400 net a month.  But you've already stated it's going to take a year before the writer would see any of that, and even still, it's only a maybe.  42 cents has to last a year.  Or more.

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I know I am going to regret this post tomorrow and I apologize in an advance for my acerbic tone.  I am just at my wits end here.  I was looking for help instead got my work and integrity insulted. It kind of sucks.

It kind of sucks that you came onto a writers' board and insulted our craft, too.  Writing's not easy.  Several people in this thread have said that to you, and yet you've come back again and again saying things like "The only possible explanation I can come up with is on your plane of existence you use some strange symbolic mathematical hybrid language that alters the very fabric of reality and that's why it takes you so long on each word you write."

If you know you're being acerbic, apologizing in advance really isn't the way to go.  You hit post anyway, knowing that you've lashed out.  In the future I'd suggest walking away from the keyboard for a while when an online discussion gets you that upset.  As it is right now, potential writers for your comic googling "drowemos" could come across this thread and decide they don't want to work with someone who's going to insult writers.

It's entirely possible that payment for webcomic writers works differently than payment for shorty story writers.  I'm not disputing that.  But two out of the three webcomics you publish have an ongoing story behind them (and for all I know, the knitting one might, too.  I didn't look far enough to see).  Story, for me, takes crafting and planning.  If I'm developing characters and writing their dialogue, it had better be believable, and whatever actions they kick off in strip #1 had better still make sense come strip #101.  So, yeah, a lot more thought would go into those 300 words than, I dunno, "Panel 1: Jim tells a knock-knock joke.  Panel 2:  Sally laughs.  Panel 3:  EXPLOSION!"

And, even in webcomics that don't have ongoing stories, to be honest, I'm not there for the art.  XKCD has already been invoked.  I've been reading Penny Arcade since pretty close to the start.  Look at how far Gabe's art has come over the years.  I didn't keep reading it to watch him grow as an artist; I kept reading because the strip was funny.  Because of the writing.

Lastly,

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If this is what's it like to work with a professional writer I think I will go over to a fan fiction site offer someone a grilled cheese sandwich to write the script and call it a day.

Professional writers are looking for some respect.  You've come onto this board and, through your own words, showed us you don't have much of that.  Which strikes me as strange, because back in one of your earlier posts, you admitted that it's the writing more than the the art that carries a webcomic in the long-term.  So on some level, you seem to acknowledge that writing is an important part of the process.  And yet, you're offering the equivalent of a grilled cheese sandwich for that effort, with only the possibility of getting paid more in the future.  (Actually, up here in Boston a grilled cheese sandwich is going to run me $3-$5.  A penny and a half a page will hardly even get me a slice of bread.)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 10:57:26 AM by falconesse »



Anarkey

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Reply #28 on: August 13, 2010, 10:10:15 AM
With places like Drabblecast, Escape Pod, and Clarkesworld, the writers get paid up front.  And they retain the copyright to their work, so if they'd like to sell it elsewhere as a reprint, they can get paid for it again.  If no one ever reads their story, or if the website goes down in a year due to lack of readership/listenership, they still have something to show for it.  You're offering a penny and a half a page.

I'm currently shopping around a 7000-word story.  In standard manuscript format, that's about 250 words per page.  So, about 28 pages.  Under your model, that story would get 42 cents from you, with any future payment being a big ol' maybe.  It's great that two of your comics are bringing in $400 net a month.  But you've already stated it's going to take a year before the writer would see any of that, and even still, it's only a maybe.  42 cents has to last a year.  Or more.

And! (because it can never be said too often) the EA 'casts publish mostly reprints (honorable J DeRego excepted from the generalization, of course) which means most of the people getting the flat rate payment from EA have already been paid for their stories once by someone else.

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drowemos

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Reply #29 on: August 13, 2010, 11:36:38 AM
You guys are really looking for something that isn't there and using me a symbol for every person who dismissed your career as a writer.  I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal.  Kind of regretting that decision now but water under the bridge and all.

I never said writing was easy.  I was just talking about time.  Per page on a comic project a artist will spend more time by a factor of 20 than the writer. The writer has a difficult job no doubt.  Good comics demand very tight staccato language that get across a lot of meaning in a very small space.  There comic writer has to account for the timing of his words in the strip as well as the meaning of the words.  A comic denies a writer of his ability to use descriptive language or to go inside the characters perspective greatly reducing the toolbox available to tell the story. Story comics have longer narrative arch that need to be considered that if not planed well can scuttle a comic in the long run. It is very difficult to do well.

However this difficult task still does not take as long on a page by page basis as the equally difficult task of the art.  Because comics have a time dimension the writing which would fill one prose page is usually spread over 10 or so comic pages.  The writing, while still very difficult, has been spread out.  

So you have two professional doing very difficult tasks on a creative work but one of these professional has to spend 20 times longer on each page. Logic sort of says that the professional that is spending more time on the work should get paid more.  Unless your are suggestion that writing is MORE difficult than art and I find that insulting to the artist.

There is also a factor of how a reader approaches a comic.  For better or for worse the reader is attracted to the pretty picture first but form a lasting relationship with the comic based on the writing.  This means sales on "Issue 1"s are for a large part due to the work of the art but "Issue 2" is due to the writing.  Also, as I said a writer needs, to think about the narrative arch.  That is a long term thing so you need to keep a writer on a project but you can change an artist without impact.  Because of this the tradition among the independent comic industry has been to give writers partial ownership of the work because any long term success or failure will be on account of their genius.  Not saying this is right or wrong it's just the tradition.

One thing to remember is that for every XKCD there is a Sore Thumbs where the success comes from the art not the writing. (At least I think so.  I can't make head or tails of Sore Thumbs.  And if you want to you can throw my own works into that pile.  I write but I am not a great writer and I know I owe a lot to my artist).

At no time was I asking anyone to do it for free.  I tried to be very upfront about the questionable profits on this endeavor, but I did offer ownership of a comic.  You would get something in return for your work; an illustrated comic that costs $1000+ to produce.  I think comics are fun and every day I pay to have someone make pretty pictures to go with my words.  I have never made a dime off of my webcomics and I never expect to.  I just like having my own comic and invest time and money to get that.  I think there is a value in having images go with your words and making your work more accessible. I really did think I was offer something of pretty high value.

Now just in case my "tone" is still wrong let me say this:  Writing is hard.  Writers should be compensated for their work.  Writers are professionals.  Writing is a noble art forum.

Is that good enough now?

Anyway $100 for 300 words.  It taking 1.6 minutes per word to write a comic script. That competitive rates of 1.5 cents per word (I did goof and say 1.5 cents per page but that was a typo) and 3 cents per word are not acceptable because I didn't have the right tone.  This stuff kind of impresses me as a bit crazy, sorry if you are insulted by that but it does.  The fact that no one is willing to back down on these point really did make me feel like I wandered into a mad house.

Well that's the end of my little speech. There is one clarification that I would like to make.  I publish 4 comics online.  www.exiern.com, www.legacycomic.com, www.knitprincess.com, www.bladebunny.com . One of them does have nudity the rest are PG rated.  Though I know it is going to happen time and again by people who are out to make a cheep shot I sort of resent be characterized as solely a publisher of "mercantile TG/TF fetish comic with nudie-pics behind a paywall".  I know the statement was softened afterwards but still it's a gross miss-characterization.

The new comic I am talking about is also a PG superhero story I didn't talk about it here because I was not advertising just looking for advice. Seeing that advice will not be forthcoming (except of the slight bizarre pay $100 for 300 words) and that I have become the strawman of this thread I guess it's best I just cut my loses at this point. Best of luck in your writing careers.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 01:10:31 PM by drowemos »



daikaisho

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Reply #30 on: August 13, 2010, 01:15:16 PM
I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal.  

People gave you advice. You didn't listen, and you keep harping on one comment that was made early in the thread so you can act aggrieved about the ~injustice~ of having to pay writers.

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I never said writing was easy.

Yes you did.  

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Now just in case my "tone" is still wrong let me say this:  Writing is hard.  Writers should be compensated for their work.  Writers are professionals.  Writing is a noble art forum.

Is that good enough now?

If you are trying to pepper your post with thinly veiled insults, yes.

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Anyway $100 for 300 words.  It taking 1.6 minutes per word to write a comic script. That competitive rates of 1.5 cents per word (I did goof and say 1.5 cents per page but that was a typo) and 3 cents per word are not acceptable because I didn't have the right tone.  This stuff kind of impresses me as a bit crazy, sorry if you are insulted by that but it does.  The fact that no one is willing to back down on these point really did make me feel like I wandered into a mad house.

And... just because you don't like the answers you got, absolutely everybody who responded to you is insane? Including the people who gave you non-abrasive, well-intentioned responses? Good to know.

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The new comic I am talking about is also a PG superhero story I didn't talk about it here because I was not advertising just looking for advice. Seeing that advice will not be forthcoming (except of the slight bizarre pay $100 for 300 words) and that I have become the strawman of this thread I guess it's best I just cut my loses at this point. Best of luck in your writing careers.

1). You don't understand what a strawman argument is, because that's not what is happening here.
2). Context like that is helpful when asking for advice on how to find writers.
3). Appropriate animated .gif is appropriate:




Scattercat

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Reply #31 on: August 13, 2010, 01:47:01 PM
Though I know it is going to happen time and again by people who are out to make a cheep shot I sort of resent be characterized as solely a publisher of "mercantile TG/TF fetish comic with nudie-pics behind a paywall".  I know the statement was softened afterwards but still it's a gross miss-characterization.

But you publish and earn money from a transgender/transformation fetish comic that offers uncensored comics and topless pictures of the main character for a fee.  The comic itself goes out of its way to put the main character in skimpy or torn outfits so as to make the uncensored versions appealing.  It is a porn site.  If it's unfair to point out that it's a porn site, well... Look, nearly every public restroom has a mirror or five.  Take a gander sometime.

Tell you what: if Knit Princess is actually your big money-earner and the porn has nothing to do with your $400/month figure, I will cheerfully retract my statements and provide you with a month of free writing.  Otherwise, man up a little; an unrepentant purveyor of titillation earns more of my respect than someone denying that they're making money selling drawings of naked boobies.



drowemos

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Reply #32 on: August 13, 2010, 02:05:49 PM
I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal.  

People gave you advice. You didn't listen, and you keep harping on one comment that was made early in the thread so you can act aggrieved about the ~injustice~ of having to pay writers.

I have said several times that I want to pay a writer and offer an reasonable deal. Where did I harp on injustice of having to pay writers?

I never said writing was easy.

Yes you did.  

Nooo.  I did not.  Where in this thread did I say that?  I would not say that because I don't believe that.

Now just in case my "tone" is still wrong let me say this:  Writing is hard.  Writers should be compensated for their work.  Writers are professionals.  Writing is a noble art forum.

Is that good enough now?

If you are trying to pepper your post with thinly veiled insults, yes.

Oh for the love of... I will pay a writer to $10 right now to write this statement in a way that will not be misconstrued as an insult.  I actually believe this. All though I must say $10 is actually an unfair rate since the task seems to be neigh impossible. We would have that alternate dimension symbolic mathematic reality altering language to accomplish this task.

And... just because you don't like the answers you got, absolutely everybody who responded to you is insane? Including the people who gave you non-abrasive, well-intentioned responses? Good to know.

True DKT offered some helpful advice and Listener was helpful.  The mad house comment was uncalled for.  I am just feeling a bit beaten around right now and having to defend myself against things I never said.

1). You don't understand what a strawman argument is, because that's not what is happening here.

Strawman: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

It's not happening here?  My basic question was "I want to know where to look for a professional writer and what a fair deal should be for them".  I never said writing was easy or that a writer should not be paid and yet that is what I am defending myself against.  My position {Writers are valuable and i need one for my project} has been interpreted as {I think writing is easy and writers should not be paid}.  Kind of seems like a misrepresentation to me.

Quote from: Scattercat
Tell you what: if Knit Princess is actually your big money-earner and the porn has nothing to do with your $400/month figure,

I make money from exiern no doubt.  Knit Princess does clear $2000 at every convention it has gone to and it makes $200 each quarter from a deal with Twist Collective magazine. So one of the $400 comic is Exiern.  The other (technicality $150ish when you account for the artist costs and update schedule) is Knit Princess.   Naked bits helps but it's not the only way to make money. Never said I don't appeal to fan service but that is not all I do.

I could not find a head exploding graphic that wasn't too gruesome to put at the bottom of this post but that is what should be placed here:



falconesse

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Reply #33 on: August 13, 2010, 02:08:22 PM
You guys are really looking for something that isn't there and using me a symbol for every person who dismissed your career as a writer.

Damn it, I'd start the drinking game, but it's too early in the morning and I'd have alcohol poisoning within the hour.

No one's ever dismissed my career as a writer.  You're not a symbol for anything.  However, there are many, many people out there on ye olde internets who are looking to pay writers little or nothing for their work.  Some of them are just starting out themselves.  Some of them don't know much about whatever business they're in.  And some of them are actively looking to screw over the writers. 

I do not think you're in the last category, by the way.  However, I think your model for "paying" writers is very flawed.  I spend a lot of time reading Writer Beware and the "Bewares and Background Checks" forum at Absolute Write.  Plenty of what you're suggesting raises red flags for me, especially in matters of fair pay and copyright.

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I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal.

Then act like a professional.  When people balk at your suggested payment model, listen to why they're leery of it.  It's good that you're now considering an up-front payment.  That's progress.  However, you still admit that half-ownership may still very well result in no profits for the writer.  The artist gets their full payment and it doesn't matter whether the comic succeeds or fails.  The writer, however, takes the fall if the comic fails.  How is that fair?

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I never said writing was easy.  I was just talking about time.

From your second post:

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comic script writing is a pretty light work

and from your fourth:

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It takes two hours to write 3 to 4 pages of comics.  I know because I write 4 comics currently and I can crank out a page of script for each one in the time I get up before work.

That's how much time it takes you to write 3 to 4 pages of comics.  And, yes, "cranking out a page of script" certainly comes off as "writing is easy."


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It is very difficult to do well.

Hooray!  Yes!  It is!  Which means it takes time.  Writing isn't just scratching some words on paper and calling it done.  Good, quality writing is going to take some editing and revising, and a lot longer than a half hour per page.

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However this difficult task still does not take as long on a page by page basis as the equally difficult task of the art.  Because comics have a time dimension the writing which would fill one prose page is usually spread over 10 or so comic pages.  The writing, while still very difficult, has been spread out.  

So you have two professional doing very difficult tasks on a creative work but one of these professional has to spend 20 times longer on each page. Logic sort of says that the professional that is spending more time on the work should get paid more.  Unless your are suggestion that writing is MORE difficult than art and I find that insulting to the artist.

Er, no.  You're talking two different mediums here, even though they're combining to make one tasty comic.  Writing and drawing are two very different things, two different skill sets.  I'm not refuting the part where the artist might spend more drawing and inking and coloring than the writer spends writing.  That still doesn't make it fair to pay the writer in pennies and promises while the artist gets real-world money.

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At no time was I asking anyone to do it for free.  I tried to be very upfront about the questionable profits on this endeavor, but I did offer ownership of a comic.  You would get something in return for your work; an illustrated comic that costs $1000+ to produce.  I think comics are fun and every day I pay to have someone make pretty pictures to go with my words.  I have never made a dime off of my webcomics and I never expect to.  I just like having my own comic and invest time and money to get that.  I think there is a value in having images go with your words and making your work more accessible. I really did think I was offer something of pretty high value.

And if the webcomic makes no money, and fails after the first year -- a possibility you yourself stress -- the writer has... nothing (do I need to channel Jayne again?)  Yes, they have an illustrated comic for which they wrote.  They get to, what, to look at it on a website if you leave the domain up?  Stick it in their portfolio?  At the end of the year, the artist has still been paid and the writer still has not.

Another question:  what can the writer do with half-ownership of a failed webcomic?  I'm not being snarky here; I genuinely don't know what the benefit is.  What if he or she would like to take that story arc and turn it into a novel?  Do you have some kind of claim on the sale of that novel, with your half-ownership of the webcomic?  What rights to their words do your writers retain?  What rights to their words are you claiming?

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Now just in case my "tone" is still wrong let me say this:  Writing is hard.  Writers should be compensated for their work.  Writers are professionals.  Writing is a noble art forum.

Is that good enough now?

Depends on whether you're being sarcastic or not.

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Anyway $100 for 300 words.

That was what Scattercat found with some quick research on average pay for comic scripts.  It's pretty much what I found, too.  Sure, it might be what writers at Marvel and DC are getting, and there's going to be a difference in payscale between big huge comic book companies and fledgling webcomics, but it's still payment up front, not "have some shiny beads, then we'll talk in a year."

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It taking 1.6 minutes per word to write a comic script.

Hey, you know, it might.  Again, it's not just a matter of slapping some words down on paper and calling it good.  Writing means planning and editing, revising and re-revising.  So the actual process of typing out 300 words might take a half hour, but tweaking those words to make the best script possible might take more than the half hour you allot to it.

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That competitive rates of 1.5 cents per word (I did goof and say 1.5 cents per page but that was a typo) and 3 cents per word are not acceptable because I didn't have the right tone.  This stuff kind of impresses me as a bit crazy, sorry if you are insulted by that but it does.  The fact that no one is willing to back down on these point really did make me feel like I wandered into a mad house.

It's not unacceptable because of your tone.  It's unacceptable because that's not what you initially offered.  1.5 to 3 cents would be considered semi-pro rates if you're submitting a short story.  5 cents per word and up is the standard minimum rate for professional pay.  (And, again to clarify:  EA's 1.5 cents/word is, as Anarkey stated, aimed at the reprint market, which means ideally the writers have received 5 cents/word already elsewhere.)

Not being a webcomic writer, I'd say 1.5 to 3 cents a word for a webcomic just starting out sounds fair.  Sounds.  But again, I don't write for webcomics.

Something else to consider:  you talk about paying per word, but then discuss the amount of time the artists spend drawing.  Those really aren't the same thing.  I'd suggest you pick one:  if you're paying the artist per page of artwork, pay the writer per word.  If your artists are billing you an hourly rate, let your writers do the same, and pay them both a fair hourly wage. 

But pay them both up front, and don't let either of their payments hinge on where the comic is in a year and how much it's bringing in.

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Seeing that advice will not be forthcoming (except of the slight bizarre pay $100 for 300 words)

Actually, advice is all over thread.  You're choosing to stuff your fingers in your ears and shout LALALALA rather than processing it.  Take a step back.  Breathe.  You asked what we'd consider professional.  We answered.  It's there, if you can stop being offended and see it.

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and that I have become the strawman of this thread I guess it's best I just cut my loses at this point. Best of luck in your writing careers.

Oh man, "everyone's being meeeean to me" AND a flounce.  Drink twice!

When you come out with guns blazing, people are going to shoot back.  However, there's also a lot of calm, rational discussion here, and I'd bet you could glean a lot of good stuff from it.



Swamp

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Reply #34 on: August 13, 2010, 02:22:19 PM
I came here looking for advice specifically because I wanted a professional writer and I wanted to offer a professional deal.  

People gave you advice. You didn't listen, and you keep harping on one comment that was made early in the thread so you can act aggrieved about the ~injustice~ of having to pay writers.

I have said several times that I want to pay a writer and offer an reasonable deal. Where did I harp on injustice of having to pay writers?

I think it is because you keep bringing up the $100 for 300 words thing, which most of the writers here don't honestly expect.  But you keep hammering on that.

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Reply #35 on: August 13, 2010, 04:15:09 PM
Remember, kids, as long as you never technically say exactly what others hear in your tone, you're the victim of a strawman.  The more you know!

Drow, protip: A strawman is when someone misconstrues the facts of your argument.  Misconstruing your tone is not a strawman argument, and when that kind of "misreading" is as consistent as it's been in this thread, let's just say that it's really really likely NOT to be a problem with all of the audience members.



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Reply #36 on: August 13, 2010, 11:12:22 PM
I'm going to chime in, as someone who is interested in buying stories.  (Although not yet) 

The first thing I started doing was asking via social media where I could go to start.  I asked one of the people in this thread some quick questions, and got a lot of helpful information.  I know that for the project I want to crank out, I need a budget of at least $10,000 for a 13 short story collection.  Now, there are some ways I could lower that by offering creative deals, like the one offered here, but I would always offer at least some guaranteed money. 

Personally, if I were to offer a deal like that, I would do something more like this:  (I am using generic numbers here)

I'll pay $X up front for the work, or $1/2 X and Y% of profits, or $1/4X and 4Y% of profits.  By doing that, you let them decide what is more important:  guaranteed money or potential upside.

I have run several businesses into the ground, and have a successful one now.  I've learned a lot from falling on my face.  Suck it up, figure out why you got a negative response here, and change your tactics. 

I've not gone to check out your comics, but to me this seems more like a cheap PR stunt.

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drowemos

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Reply #37 on: August 14, 2010, 12:52:07 PM
Well time for mea culpa.  I did not handle this interaction very well at all and I have to apologize.  I have been having a bad week and it seems to have spilled over into this forum.  I fell into the classic "some one is wrong on the internet".  I came her for advice not as a publicity stunt or trying to cheat people.  The problems where the first couple of responses just were not practical in the webcomic business model, following the advice would have scuttled the project.   What I should have done is just thanked the individuals for their advice and moved on.  Instead, like an idiot,  I tried to demonstrate how impractical the proposal was through argument and sarcastic humor.  This make me come off like a callous ass.  Mostly because I was being a callous ass.

When the implication was made that I was trying to cheat people and that I don't value writing this kind of burned me because it's the exact opposite of what I try to do with my webcomics and what I believe. Again I should have let it go said "sorry you feel that way" and moved on not try to defend myself.  It hard to do that when your being accused of something so opposite to your nature.

So I am sorry.  I promise if I ever post on this board again I will do a couple hours of zen meditation beforehand. It has just been a rough week for me.  (currently a company is trying cheat me out of pay for my contract work so you can see why the line discussion kind of annoyed me)

From what I have gleaned from the non-"you suck" posts.  A token payment up front is a good idea and I agree with that.  I can probably safely budget $5 to $10 a comic page for the script with 25% profit sharing (money after the artist is paid and not including advertising that is always reinvesting into adverting).  The key would be to have some agreement that would really encourage the writer to stick with the project for a over a year.  Not writing for over a year mind you but as the comic matured and gained an audience that the writer would stay available for work and not choose to move on to other things.

I still don't have the slightest idea where to post said announcement.  All the google searches of "writer's forums" have taken me to strange ghost town of forums or things locked behind a pay wall.  I suppose I could try Craig's list and the local writer's center but i really didn't want to limit myself geographically.  Although I guess it's a place to start.  For those who tried to help out thanks for the advice.  For those I offended I do apologize.



falconesse

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Reply #38 on: August 14, 2010, 02:30:03 PM
Absolute Write, which I linked in my previous post, has a "Paying Markets" board.  I'd suggest reading their sticky post about their rules first, because it has some guidelines on the information they're looking for.  They might also move the post over to the non-paying markets board, if it works out to less than a quarter of a cent per word. 

Also, be ready to have people ask you some of the same questions you were asked here. The authors who contribute to Writer Beware are active participants on that board, and they're going to be looking out for the writers who hang out around those parts.  They're not trying to be jerks; they're in the business of helping people get fair deals, and they're tenacious about it.

I noticed you didn't answer my questions about copyright.  Be prepared to field some of the same questions I asked you over there, too.  If you have half-ownership, and the writer has half-ownership, what happens if the webcomic fails and ceases publication after a year?  Can the writer take that storyline that he or she created and turn it into a novel?  Do you have any claim on that novel?

If you do post at AW, I'd highly recommend you don't let your bad week spill over there, too.  They're going to ask you pointed questions, and they're probably going to tell you whether they think your offer is fair or not.  Be polite and professional, and I bet you'll find someone to work with through them.



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Reply #39 on: August 14, 2010, 02:36:17 PM
From what I have gleaned from the non-"you suck" posts.  A token payment up front is a good idea and I agree with that.  I can probably safely budget $5 to $10 a comic page for the script with 25% profit sharing (money after the artist is paid and not including advertising that is always reinvesting into adverting).  The key would be to have some agreement that would really encourage the writer to stick with the project for a over a year.  Not writing for over a year mind you but as the comic matured and gained an audience that the writer would stay available for work and not choose to move on to other things.

A token payment sounds like a much better idea.  Regarding "not choose to move on to other things"--is there any reason they can't go on to write other things and choose to come back?  


Quote
I still don't have the slightest idea where to post said announcement.  All the google searches of "writer's forums" have taken me to strange ghost town of forums or things locked behind a pay wall.  I suppose I could try Craig's list and the local writer's center but i really didn't want to limit myself geographically.  Although I guess it's a place to start.  For those who tried to help out thanks for the advice.  For those I offended I do apologize.

If you're looking for writer's forums to ask for volunteers, I could point you to a few.  Most SF magazines have writer's forum section, but I'll list a few.  I'm not sure that all of them allow soliciting works, so you might want to check forum rules before registering.

1.  This one, of course.  :)
2.  Writers of the Future:
http://forum.writersofthefuture.com/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=d67a826a7e6175155042e2da133648b9
3. Analog:  
http://www.analogsf.com/aspnet_forum/topics.aspx?ForumID=2
4.  Asimov's:
http://www.asimovs.com/aspnet_forum/topics.aspx?ForumID=8
5.  Fantasy and Science Fiction:
http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/blog/forum/forum.php?id=2
6.  Hatrack River (writing forum on Orson Scott Card's website)
http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Open+Discussions+About+Writing&number=1&DaysPrune=365&LastLogin=
7.  Liberty Hall (not specific to SF & F)
http://www.libertyhallwriters.org/forum/



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Reply #40 on: August 14, 2010, 02:45:59 PM
And I'll echo everything that falconesse just added too, especially the discussion of copyright.

Even more than payment, copyright is probably going to be more of an issue.  Even if you pay well, if the copyright agreement is not favorable, your deal is going to sound much less desirable.

I'm not sure what would be considered reasonable regarding copyright for webcomics, but you MUST be upfront about it.  Whatever you plan to do, tell people ahead of time so they can make their own choice.  As an example of a bad copyright deal:
Have you heard of Highlights magazine for kids?  I know I read it when I was a kid, with the Goofus and Gallant comics.  I've been tempted to submit to them, because they pay something like 25 cents per word, which is 5 times the minimum considered as "professional" payment.  But they don't just buy print rights for the story, they buy the entire copyright.  Which means that the author has no right to do anything with the story after that, including writing a sequel with the same characters because they're copyrighted by Highlights.  So, I don't ever intend to submit to them because I think that insisting on buying the entire copyright is a ripoff, even for that pay.

I don't mean to compare your deal with theirs, only to point out how big a deal copyright concerns may be.  Decide exactly what rights you intend to keep, and what rights you'll leave with the author.



Zorag

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Reply #41 on: August 14, 2010, 03:17:22 PM
Some of the info here and in my thread go together.  Any chance of combining them?

Come say hi over at the Beef Beer And Poker forum.


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Reply #42 on: August 16, 2010, 05:59:23 PM
Copyright is a thorny issue on this one.  In the normal situation were I am just producing a comic that was created by someone else the the copyright and trademark stays with the writer.  For example Allison owns the IP rights to Knit Princess.  If she decides to stop making the comic then well that's the end of it.  There is no comic with out her.

However this is a different situation.  I created this comic and the basic character and I am asking someone else to pick up the torch.  In this case giving the writer power over the trademark give the writer power to scuttle the project.  That is not an amount of power I am willing to give over something I created and prevent me from using my character again.

Copyright is also a problem because a script is not a complete work it is a blueprint for a completed work.  So while I could offer a writer ownership of the copyright that is pretty useless.  No one is going to buy the raw script and the script can not be used to create another comic because that would infringe on the trademark.  So having second publishing rights on a script is pretty useless.

Now that I think about it the fact that work on existing characters in a comic script is pretty much a one shot deal with 0 resale potential is probably why that $100 figure exists. The problem is I can't pay that with a webcomics thin potential for profit.

Now at the same time there should be some protection for the writer if the comic takes off.   If I start making movie deals and millions of dollars off of a comic then the writer should get some of that and I should not be allowed to just "fire" the writer when things go well.

 I don't know what an agreement that would both; protect my right to continue making the comic if the writer flakes and protects the writers rights to profits for future deals that results from his/her work, would look like.  Any ideas?



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Reply #43 on: August 18, 2010, 05:39:57 PM
I'm afraid I have no idea what would be fair or reasonable for copyright deal on a webcomic.  Most likely, because the franchise was created by you, then the comic writing is by contract and by paying the author you are buying the copyright.  I wrote C++ code for a living, but because I am doing so according to orders of the company, and the result goes into company products, I do not in any way OWN the rights to use that code however I please, though I do get CREDIT for having been the one to write it.

That makes sense to me for a webcomic as well because you are hiring a 3rd party to expand upon your creative idea (though I think you may want to see if there are any webcomic precedents you can compare to). 

WHATEVER you want to do though, you must decide all of this ahead of time and get it on a contract.  If the contract explicitly states something like "Copyright for this created work will be owned by drowemos, but in addition to the $___ fee, the writing credit will be given to the writer."  If it's all stated in clear English in the contract, then the writer can decide for themselves whether it's worth joining.



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Reply #44 on: August 26, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
I'm not sure what the big deal is here: Drow made an offer, everyone is free to accept or reject it.

All discussions of pro-rates etc. aside, Drow should just offer an up-front payment.  People are more likely to agree for guaranteed money.

Likewise, while pro-rates may be like $200 a page or whatever - most writers can only charge what the market can bear.  I've been paid as little as $0.02 for a story - but was happy to get it.  Make an offer and you'll get a reasonably fair response: offer $200 a page and Stan Lee will come knocking, but offer $10 a page or $5 a page and you'll still get offers.

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Reply #45 on: August 27, 2010, 09:36:15 PM
I'm not sure what the big deal is here: Drow made an offer, everyone is free to accept or reject it.

All discussions of pro-rates etc. aside, Drow should just offer an up-front payment.  People are more likely to agree for guaranteed money.

Likewise, while pro-rates may be like $200 a page or whatever - most writers can only charge what the market can bear.  I've been paid as little as $0.02 for a story - but was happy to get it.  Make an offer and you'll get a reasonably fair response: offer $200 a page and Stan Lee will come knocking, but offer $10 a page or $5 a page and you'll still get offers.

Agreed.  Just be upfront about what you're offering.  Guaranteed payment of any amount is much more tempting than a chance of payment, but whatever you do just tell people what you WILL do and then do exactly what you said you would.