PC121, Giant Episode: The Warlock And The Man Of The Word

[astyanax]

This is a setting I usually very much dislike and it is very unlikely that I would have ever considered picking up the native star. However, this story has made me think I may just give it a try. I'll be buying a copy this weekend.

[Mav.Weirdo]

I enjoyed this story very much. The interplay/relationship between Ash and Ferness is what makes this story great. I personally found Bob Eccles' "narrator" voice a bit too neutral, althought his character voices worked well.

I have added Native Star to my wishlist.

Also, 1st post on the boards

[Scattercat]

I enjoyed it, although I, too, was a bit disappointed that - as per usual, it seems - the faithful are wrong and misguided and end up ruining everything and/or playing right into the Bad Guys' hands.  This is why I played Father Ezekiel in a Shadowrun game (which has the same premise, i.e. faith powers magic and faith in *what* doesn't matter so much), a rip-roaring Baptist preacher who insisted on giving every "sinner" the team encountered a chance to repent before having their heads shot off.  He got shot in the back repeatedly by "repentant" sinners, but he didn't let that stop him.  (He had armor plating installed instead.)

[Wilson Fowlie]

as per usual, it seems - the faithful are wrong and misguided and end up ruining everything

... and ... ?

It usually goes that way, in fiction and often in real life, because the ones who have enough zealotry to get off their butts and get involved also generally^* tend to be the ones who are intolerant, closed-minded, judgmental and generally unhelpful.


^*Not always, but generally.

[Scattercat]

If that were true, then religion wouldn't have been such a massively successful meme.  Memes that do nothing but harm don't get retained.  Given that churchs and faith have been a force for social good as well as social ill, I don't think that sort of broad generalization, even with your footnote, can stand much scrutiny.  Lots of charitable organizations start from churches of all flavors; those are people who are involved and motivated to get off their butts, are they not?

I find that a lot of speculative fiction explores faith as something seen from the outside.  Even here in this story, when the preacher is walking with Ash, he's a full three-dimensional character with doubts and concerns, but once he's touched by the angel and his faith is reignited, he becomes Other, an unknowable mute and alien presence.  That sort of thing bothers me because seeing it so often seems to reinforce it as a pillar of the common reality.  (It also bothers me on a pragmatic level because as soon as you see a priest, you know s/he's going to turn out evil in the end, and that makes for predictable stories.)

[Wilson Fowlie]

If that were true, then religion wouldn't have been such a massively successful meme.  Memes that do nothing but harm don't get retained.  Given that churchs and faith have been a force for social good as well as social ill, I don't think that sort of broad generalization, even with your footnote, can stand much scrutiny.  Lots of charitable organizations start from churches of all flavors; those are people who are involved and motivated to get off their butts, are they not?

Yes, though in a lot of cases the charity, however generous, is used as a hook to pull in more faithful (and in some cases - possibly even many cases, but I'm willing to stick to 'some' - the 'charity' is given on condition of a declaration of faith or 'repentance' by the recipient).

In this story, Furness isn't getting involved in charity, but in 'fighting evil', and I should have said that it's in that situation that religious zealotry starts to be wrong and misguided and ruin, if not everything, then a lot, because once the religious mind - especially that of a leader - gets into that mode, it tends to see evil around every corner. Persecution is an integral part (and, I bet, is a large part of the success you mention) of that meme.

(It also bothers me on a pragmatic level because as soon as you see a priest, you know s/he's going to turn out evil in the end, and that makes for predictable stories.)

That I can sympathize with.

As much as I dislike Orson Scott Card's work these days, I have to say he handled that issue well with the Bishop(?) in Speaker For the Dead.  He (the Bishop) was as wrong-headed and closed-minded as any of the fictional priests you decry, but Card was careful not to make him utterly one-dimensional.

[Wilson Fowlie]

Also, for all that you may be right, it's the Jerry Falwells and James Dobsons and Ernest Angleys and Ray Comforts and Oral Robertses and Fred Phelpses and Terry Joneses - the extremists - who grab the headlines.  Just from the media attention they get, it's easy to tell that they're interesting characters, from a reader's point of view.  The moderately religious who start or work in charities, like ... um ... ah ... uh ...

Huh, can't seem to think of any.  No names come to mind, even though they probably outnumber people like the above 10- or 100-fold.

The moderate priest who forgives sin instead of condemning it, helps the poor or homeless instead of saying they have what they deserve (*cough*Calvin*cough*) and guides his flock instead of ruling them with fear is just not as interesting a character (or, at least, is much harder to make into as interesting a character as Furness) so you just won't see them as often.

[Scattercat]

I certainly wouldn't disagree that people out "fighting evil" in the name of any religion are likely to also be raging assholes of one degree or another.  I just get irritated by the "strong faith = evil or at least duped by evil" meme, and I was disappointed to see it recapitulated here.

[Swamp]

I share Scattercat's dislike of the recurring theme of religious = evil/stupid that often frequents spec fic.  There wasn't enough of it in this story to make me not like it.  I thought it was a rich world with good characters.  It did blip my antireligious radar, but I enjoyed the overall story quite a bit regardless.  I like a good "weird western".

[Scattercat]

I share Scattercat's dislike of the recurring theme of religious = evil/stupid that often frequents spec fic.  There wasn't enough of it in this story to make me not like it.  I thought it was a rich world with good characters.  It did blip my antireligious radar, but I enjoyed the overall story quite a bit regardless.  I like a good "weird western".

I agree.  I liked the story overall, and I enjoyed the world and the intriguing dilemmas the plotline posed. 

[Unblinking]

It usually goes that way, in fiction and often in real life, because the ones who have enough zealotry to get off their butts and get involved also generally^* tend to be the ones who are intolerant, closed-minded, judgmental and generally unhelpful.

I've met plenty of close-minded, judgmental, and unhelpful atheists as well.  Religion doesn't hold the patent.

[DKT]

It usually goes that way, in fiction and often in real life, because the ones who have enough zealotry to get off their butts and get involved also generally^* tend to be the ones who are intolerant, closed-minded, judgmental and generally unhelpful.

I've met plenty of close-minded, judgmental, and unhelpful atheists as well.  Religion doesn't hold the patent.

True. And I should preface the rest of what I'm going to say with this: prejudiced, judgmental, close-minded groups of people really, really pisses me off. But how many atheists threaten to hold Quran bonfires? Or suggest that Muslims - as a whole - are evil? I, personally, haven't met one.

This is not to let any other group of judgmental, close-minded people off the hook. But the truth is, I don't have to go very far to find a Christian who reminds me of Furness. As a practicing Christian (Quaker), it's more frustrating to me to see other Christians preach or act out hatefulness than just about anything else. Although, as said above, hatred and/or ignorance toward a people group by anyone infuriates me.

I certainly wouldn't disagree that people out "fighting evil" in the name of any religion are likely to also be raging assholes of one degree or another.  I just get irritated by the "strong faith = evil or at least duped by evil" meme, and I was disappointed to see it recapitulated here.

Scattercat, I sympathize. Really. And personally, I'd be happy to see more fiction come in that shows people of faith as well-developed characters, including Christians and Catholics. (Moar awesome Quaker fiction STAT!) Seriously - stories that wrestle with faith or are spiritualy provocative or display people of faith as strong characters make me very, very happy. As long as it's not wishfulfillment, and as long as it's good, of course.

Regarding this story? For me, Furness was a well-developed and thoughtful character who went to the dark side, and I didn't have a problem buying his journey, and didn't really feel like it was a stereotype. But I certainly understand where you're coming from.

That said, I don't think PodCastle has a history of discriminating against people of faith. We've run several stories in the past year that put them in the spotlight. "Hooves and the Hovel of Abdel Jameela" and "The Dybuuk in the Bottle" come to mind right off the top of my head. It'd be nice to see stories that feature priests or preachers, but honestly - I can't think of too many (any?) I've read in the last year in the PodCastle slush.

[Unblinking]

But how many atheists threaten to hold Quran bonfires? Or suggest that Muslims - as a whole - are evil? I, personally, haven't met one.

The former--I don't know of any.  The latter--I knew a few in high school.

I'm not sure I disagree with the overall point, because you can find a religious extremist who will do just about anything.  But it just seemed like too much of a generalization.

[Swamp]

That said, I don't think PodCastle has a history of discriminating against people of faith. We've run several stories in the past year that put them in the spotlight. "Hooves and the Hovel of Abdel Jameela" and "The Dybuuk in the Bottle" come to mind right off the top of my head. It'd be nice to see stories that feature priests or preachers, but honestly - I can't think of too many (any?) I've read in the last year in the PodCastle slush.

Podcastle has not had a history of discriminating against people of faith.  I was speaking in general terms, as in more often than not, if there is a preist or religious person in a spec fic story, they are played as either the fool or oppressor, and often not well-developed characters.  Furnass was pretty well fleshed out.

BTW, the Quran-burning reverend guy was an idiot.  (Don't even want to look up his name to give him any more publicity.)  Even most of his own congregation didn't support him, and there were only 50 people to start with.

[DKT]

I'm not sure I disagree with the overall point, because you can find a religious extremist who will do just about anything.  But it just seemed like too much of a generalization.

Yeah, that I get, and fair enough.

That said, I don't think PodCastle has a history of discriminating against people of faith. We've run several stories in the past year that put them in the spotlight. "Hooves and the Hovel of Abdel Jameela" and "The Dybuuk in the Bottle" come to mind right off the top of my head. It'd be nice to see stories that feature priests or preachers, but honestly - I can't think of too many (any?) I've read in the last year in the PodCastle slush.

Podcastle has not had a history of discriminating against people of faith.  I was speaking in general terms, as in more often than not, if there is a preist or religious person in a spec fic story, they are played as either the fool or oppressor, and often not well-developed characters.  Furnass was pretty well fleshed out.

BTW, the Quran-burning reverend guy was an idiot.  (Don't even want to look up his name to give him any more publicity.)  Even most of his own congregation didn't support him, and there were only 50 people to start with.

Swamp, I didn't think you implied anything else. I'm not sure Scattercat was suggesting anything specifically about PC, either - I took it as a generalization of the speculative genre, and was trying to use PC's history as a reference. And like I said, I sympathize. Poorly realized caricatures are frustrating for me to read, too.

[Scattercat]

It was the fact that Furness started out so well-developed that made me so disappointed, actually.  I was enjoying the interaction between the two characters, but that lasted only as long as Furness' doubts; as soon as he rediscovered his faith (with Alethia re-igniting his conversion experience), he became Other, and it was strongly implied (from the similarity of the two events) that his conversion in the first place was also the work of a demonic being like Alethia.  In other words, the story starts out with an interesting, conflicted man of faith and ends with the revelation that all faith is the tool of evil.  The only proper faith, it is implied, is the sort of stubborn self-reliance Ash displays, and everything else is suspect.

PodCastle has been well above average in selecting thoughtful pieces with regard to most touchy subjects.  I didn't find this particular story unpalatable or offensive; I was just vaguely bummed that I was seeing Ye Olde Evil Preacher again.

[Grayven]

This story was really fun.

[Wilson Fowlie]

I didn't find this particular story unpalatable or offensive; I was just vaguely bummed that I was seeing Ye Olde Evil Preacher again.

I suspect you'll continue to see YOEP in fiction for as long as we continue to see him (and occasionally, but rarely, her) in the news reports.

[Duriyah]

I just got around to listening to this yesterday. I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it! I was hooked from the beginning to end, waiting to see what happened next. I liked seeing the bits of this alternate universe parceled out a little at a time as the story unfolded.

I loved the reading, too. I used to listen to books on tape years ago. Bob Eccles reading has an even, professional quality that was reminiscent to me of the readers on those old audio books. Good times!

[Silvrayla]

I really enjoyed this story. It kept me interested the entire time. I am quickly becoming an M.K. Hobbson fan.

[Azarel]

I loved this story.  I like stories based in real (current or historical) setting that add a dash of the supernatural.
I will for sure buy M.K. Hobson's book (if available on Kindle)

[mcjoe]

Interesting mix of fantasy and western genres. Fun story with a good ending. Looking forward to picking up a copy of The Native Star.

[icegirl]

I didn't love this one - don't know if it was the style of the narrator or just the style of the prose, but I couldn't get past it enough to listen to the entire story....

Native Star, on the other hand, is a winner - looking forward to reading the whole thing - bringing in to my bookstore for sure!

[mbrennan]

I quite enjoyed this one, especially the sense of depth to the world.  I want to know more about demons in the Old West, how they fit in with humans, etc; even something like the naming of the demons felt like it had a story behind it.

I did have a few issues at the beginning and the end, though.  My end-related complaint has already been covered by previous commentators; I felt like things wrapped up too quickly for me to fully grasp what they meant.  The beginning . . . because the ep was so long, I listened in two installments, first for about half an hour and then for the remainder.  During the second session, I really enjoyed myself, much more than I expected based on my earlier evidence.  The beginning of the story presents a conflict, but my recollection (I haven't gone back to check) is that it does so in kind of an omniscient fashion, such that I didn't realize for a while that Ash was going to be the central character.  This was coupled with fairly extensive description and elaboration of details, of the sort that I think I would have liked just fine in print, but which felt too slow to really work in audio.  As a result, I didn't really start to engage until the story followed Ash and Furness and Squaw Bess off to their own scene, at which point the closer focus made things more compelling to me.

(I also would have liked Squaw Bess to be a more active part of the story, rather than the all-but-voiceless "girl" for most of it -- but that's less a flaw in this particular story, and more a gripe about the pattern it's a part of: the western is not a genre known for its well-rounded, proactive female characters.  I want more stories that break the pattern.)

[christa]

New to podcastle and new to the forum so not sure how to post other than hitting reply on another post.  Anyway, over the past week I have subscibed and listened to many stories.  This is one of my favourites.