EP258: Raising Jenny

[ElectricPaladin]

What makes it SF? A few lines at the start and the occasional reference in the story? Take out those lines, and the story remains untouched. It adds nothing. On that argument, I could take absolutely any story whatsoever, add a few lines at the start to say it happens on an alien planet, and lo and behold I've written a SF story. Sorry, there's got to be more to it than that. I'll repeat that I think it's a good story, just not SF. The whole point of Dracula is that the vampire adds a completely different dimension to the story, and much of the dramatic tension in the story derives from the hiden and open menace of the vampire. That's not the case in this story.

I disagree (and why do I always end up defending stories I didn't like much?).

In this case, the story was incredibly informed by the fact that Adrienne's daughter was her mother's clone. The only reason she ended up a mother in the first place was because of her mother's (deranged) expectation that the clone would be in some way, her. Adrienne raised the clone as a way to defeat her mother because she, too (was to stupid enough to have) believed that the clone was in some way the same person as her mother.

Consider this: the market for "normal" stories is much larger than the market for science fiction and fantasy stories. Better paying, too. There's no reason for an author to slap a veneer of science fiction onto a story - he'd just be going out of his way to make the story less salable. No, this story is exactly what it is, and I still don't see how that's not science fiction.

[jrderego]

Consider this: the market for "normal" stories is much larger than the market for science fiction and fantasy stories. Better paying, too. There's no reason for an author to slap a veneer of science fiction onto a story - he'd just be going out of his way to make the story less salable. No, this story is exactly what it is, and I still don't see how that's not science fiction.

I disagree, only on the market research side of things. I don't have a dog in the "is this science fiction or not?" fight. I've been shopping literary shorts, and aside from Glimmer train, and a few regional and university journals there ain't much out there, at least not that's as widely available as say Asimov's for paper or Escape Pod for podcast.


As a caveat, I typically don't count markets where there are regional restrictions for submission, or places that don't pay, there may be more of these than I'm aware of, but general purpose fiction short story mags in paper or digital are rarer than for genre fiction.

[deflective]

there's been increased chatter about escapepod's choice in stories over the last few weeks.  these posts come in a wide variety of voices, some more polite than others, but they're all looking for the same thing: more science fiction in their science fiction podcast.

my opinion is very much in line with this but i hadn't posted earlier because i've talked about it a lot in the past.  perhaps a little too much.  but then again, perhaps talking too little is just bad as talking too much.

i'm drifting away from escapepod.  it might be a natural result of fatigue after five years, but it feels like escapepod is drifting as well.  it has always favoured science fiction stories that are light on the science; now that tendency is getting more pronounced.  over those five years other podcasts have become available and they're running the stories i want to hear.

this isn't to say that ea owes anything to anybody, i just figure that this is worth feedback.  ep has a developed audience and they know what they like.  near the beginning of the year there was a new editor that ran an increased number of concept stories and the result was confusion and discontent in the forums.  that's a strong indication to stay the course but i'm worried that there might be something of an echo chamber in the forums, reinforcing the popular opinion and driving ep into a narrowing niche.

soft, navel-gazing stories are still scifi.  they belong on this podcast, it's the ratio that is giving me a problem. 1:5 soft scifi is about where i like it, ep is moving towards 4:5.

to people moved to anger about this: don't become one of those characters that bug you in the story.  instead of fixating on how much you dislike the story and spending your time venting emotion, be proactive and look for stories you feel good supporting.  starship sofa is a good place to start.

[Talia]

"to people moved to anger about this" - alternately, I'd suggest spending some time off the internet, because getting angry about something you get for free is really sad.

[deflective]

that just fixes your problem (not wanting angry posts on the forum) not their problem (wanting a story they can enjoy).

[Unblinking]

to people moved to anger about this: don't become one of those characters that bug you in the story.  instead of fixating on how much you dislike the story and spending your time venting emotion, be proactive and look for stories you feel good supporting.  starship sofa is a good place to start.

It's all a matter of taste.  I'm very excited that Starship Sofa won a Hugo, but EP has a much higher "me likey" hit-rate for me.  I'm sure the reverse is true of other people. 

[Unblinking]

Why would there NOT be a reason to believe Jenny's soul would come back just because there's a genetically identical body for it?  Just one idea off the top of my head:  maybe souls are genetically imprinted, and so once it's cut loose from one body, it just drifts away, but if another body with the same DNA is created the soul is drawn to it, perhaps even displacing other competing souls.

Note, I don't really think that was the case in this particular story.  But if you decide that souls exist, why would you rule out certain potential traits of souls?  To me that's like saying "I am certain that dragons don't exist.  But if they do, they are purple, and smell of tulips." 

Well, because most of the time when people believe something odd, it's based on something. A long-standing religion, or a cultural assumption, or a family tradition. Not something they made up out of the blue. The story didn't do the work to convince us that this ambiguity had become a cultural phenomenon - it almost expected us to have the necessary doubts ourselves.

Consider, by way of comparison, Marie Brennan's Kingspeaker (which recently aired on Podcastle). Kingspeaker showed us a new world, with strange customs, and did the work of establishing this world and it's beliefs brick by brick, until we could believe in the characters and their dilemma. Billion-Dollar View did the same with its world of rock-jockeys and cold equations. Raising Jenny failed at this important world-building point, with regards to cloning-as-transmigration.

Sure, that's a reason to believe that souls work a particular way, but is it a good reason?  Why insist on particular traits for something you don't believe in anyway?  I'm perfectly willing to accept that IF souls exist, they may exist in some form other than what current science or current religion is capable of explaining.  This is especially true in a story world where the rules of such things in the story don't have to match the rules of the real world.  I mean, if I meet a dragon today who happens to be maroon and smells of maraschino cherries, who am I to tell it that it can't exist?

[Heradel]

Just for my bit of it, good Hard SF is hard to find. There's no shortage of Hard SF where the writer can mostly write but really mangles the science, or Hard SF where the writer knows the science cold but can't, well, write. We're not going to bring you bad Hard SF. I think we're pretty clear in our submission guidelines in what we're willing and want to publish, and honestly for my part I wish we got more publishable Hard SF stories through our slush pile. It's a really hard genre to do well, and we're not going to publish hard SF stories where the characters and dialog don't work.

EP is a science fiction magazine. We’re very broad-minded in our vision of the genre’s scope; we follow Damon Knight’s definition, “Science fiction means what we point to when we say it.” We’re not going to pin ourselves down and say we’re only looking for space opera, or cyberpunk, or stories with rigorous scientific background. We want all of those, of course; but in a more general sense we want that which evokes a sense of wonder, or fun, or simply makes us think about our own world in a new way.

[stePH]

"to people moved to anger about this" - alternately, I'd suggest spending some time off the internet, because getting angry about something you get for free is really sad.

Well, to be fair, it's not really free, is it? It takes time to listen to a story, and as Einstein proved, time is money (t=$) 

[Unblinking]

"to people moved to anger about this" - alternately, I'd suggest spending some time off the internet, because getting angry about something you get for free is really sad.

Well, to be fair, it's not really free, is it? It takes time to listen to a story, and as Einstein proved, time is money (t=$) 

$=tc²

[Unblinking]

Just for my bit of it, good Hard SF is hard to find. There's no shortage of Hard SF where the writer can mostly write but really mangles the science, or Hard SF where the writer knows the science cold but can't, well, write. We're not going to bring you bad Hard SF. I think we're pretty clear in our submission guidelines in what we're willing and want to publish, and honestly for my part I wish we got more publishable Hard SF stories through our slush pile. It's a really hard genre to do well, and we're not going to publish hard SF stories where the characters and dialog don't work.

EP is a science fiction magazine. We’re very broad-minded in our vision of the genre’s scope; we follow Damon Knight’s definition, “Science fiction means what we point to when we say it.” We’re not going to pin ourselves down and say we’re only looking for space opera, or cyberpunk, or stories with rigorous scientific background. We want all of those, of course; but in a more general sense we want that which evokes a sense of wonder, or fun, or simply makes us think about our own world in a new way.

I've read very little hard SF that I really enjoyed.  It seems like, in hard SF, the author feels the need to explain WHY their science is plausible in nauseating detail and I feel like I'm hearing a lecture instead of a story.  I'm not opposed to hard SF, but like you said, there's too much where the storytelling falls by the wayside.

[Scattercat]

Sure, that's a reason to believe that souls work a particular way, but is it a good reason?  Why insist on particular traits for something you don't believe in anyway?  I'm perfectly willing to accept that IF souls exist, they may exist in some form other than what current science or current religion is capable of explaining.  This is especially true in a story world where the rules of such things in the story don't have to match the rules of the real world.  I mean, if I meet a dragon today who happens to be maroon and smells of maraschino cherries, who am I to tell it that it can't exist?

Again, the issue is not that the characters believe this (that souls will return to a clone or that a clone will somehow magically be the same person again) but the unquestioning way they all sort of assume it when it makes no sense to believe it.  As it stands, no one who knows what cloning is believes that clones are the same person as their source material; if this technology has become common enough to be a standard procedure with minimal risk, then where did this bizarre belief come from?

I have no problems with character believing oddball things, and I also can't say what would or would not "make sense" for a soul, but the body of thought and history that we have today would logically impact the world of tomorrow, and in the world of today, no one believes that souls return to genetically identical bodies.  The story assumes that this makes so much sense that we won't question where the belief came from, but it doesn't fit into any sort of current philosophical tradition any better than if the mother had announced her intentions to live forever in a small Hot Wheels car and all her children just nodded in recognition. 

[DKT]

Just for my bit of it, good Hard SF is hard to find. There's no shortage of Hard SF where the writer can mostly write but really mangles the science, or Hard SF where the writer knows the science cold but can't, well, write. We're not going to bring you bad Hard SF. I think we're pretty clear in our submission guidelines in what we're willing and want to publish, and honestly for my part I wish we got more publishable Hard SF stories through our slush pile. It's a really hard genre to do well, and we're not going to publish hard SF stories where the characters and dialog don't work.

EP is a science fiction magazine. We’re very broad-minded in our vision of the genre’s scope; we follow Damon Knight’s definition, “Science fiction means what we point to when we say it.” We’re not going to pin ourselves down and say we’re only looking for space opera, or cyberpunk, or stories with rigorous scientific background. We want all of those, of course; but in a more general sense we want that which evokes a sense of wonder, or fun, or simply makes us think about our own world in a new way.

Just to add something: For those of you who want more hard SF at EP, find writers/stories you like, track down their webpages, emails. Tell them about EP, and ask them if they can sub something.

I don't think it's so much of an issue of "EP doesn't want to run hard SF" as it is that not much good hard SF isn't getting submitted. (See also: High Fantasy and Swords & Sorcery at PodCastle.)

ETA: Also, see Swamp's post here.

[Swamp]

there's been increased chatter about escapepod's choice in stories over the last few weeks.  these posts come in a wide variety of voices, some more polite than others, but they're all looking for the same thing: more science fiction in their science fiction podcast.

my opinion is very much in line with this but i hadn't posted earlier because i've talked about it a lot in the past.  perhaps a little too much.  but then again, perhaps talking too little is just bad as talking too much.

i'm drifting away from escapepod.  it might be a natural result of fatigue after five years, but it feels like escapepod is drifting as well.  it has always favoured science fiction stories that are light on the science; now that tendency is getting more pronounced.  over those five years other podcasts have become available and they're running the stories i want to hear.

this isn't to say that ea owes anything to anybody, i just figure that this is worth feedback.  ep has a developed audience and they know what they like.  near the beginning of the year there was a new editor that ran an increased number of concept stories and the result was confusion and discontent in the forums.  that's a strong indication to stay the course but i'm worried that there might be something of an echo chamber in the forums, reinforcing the popular opinion and driving ep into a narrowing niche.

soft, navel-gazing stories are still scifi.  they belong on this podcast, it's the ratio that is giving me a problem. 1:5 soft scifi is about where i like it, ep is moving towards 4:5.

to people moved to anger about this: don't become one of those characters that bug you in the story.  instead of fixating on how much you dislike the story and spending your time venting emotion, be proactive and look for stories you feel good supporting.  starship sofa is a good place to start.

I think the discussion of hard sf is a valid one, and think people should feel free to ask for it.  The above message doesn't seem angry to me, just expressing opinion.  I personally like a good hard sf story, one that provides solid science and well as engaging characters; however sometimes if the science is interesting enough, character can slip a little bit, but not totally.  Don't get me wrong.  I think I have commented enough over the years to prove that I like soft sf stories as well, and too much hard sf can get old fast.

Anyway, I just created a hard sf thread so that we could discuss it more at length.  I think it is worth discussing.

[Unblinking]

As it stands, no one who knows what cloning is believes that clones are the same person as their source material;

I doubt that.  I don't think that clones carry their original sould, and you don't think that, but I don't find it hard to believe that a person, especially someone who already believed in souls, would believe that.  Just because the technology is widely available doesn't mean that your average person understands it--especially if some movie or tv show has gone against science and suggested otherwise.  Soon your average person would be mentioning that of COURSE clones carry the original soul, haven't you seen "Bringing Up Dad" on CBS? 

[Wilson Fowlie]

As it stands, no one who knows what cloning is believes that clones are the same person as their source material;

I doubt that.  I don't think that clones carry their original sould, and you don't think that, but I don't find it hard to believe that a person, especially someone who already believed in souls, would believe that.  Just because the technology is widely available doesn't mean that your average person understands it--especially if some movie or tv show has gone against science and suggested otherwise.  Soon your average person would be mentioning that of COURSE clones carry the original soul, haven't you seen "Bringing Up Dad" on CBS? 

Also, there are plenty of people who think they know what cloning is, but really don't have a clue.  How many times have you seen people who think 'clone' means 'exact duplicate'?  Including some people who really should know better, like people in medical professions.

I have no difficulty believing that there are plenty of people like Jenny, who have a muddled idea of both 'soul' and 'clone' (or even just 'DNA'), and think that one somehow implies the other.  I also have no difficulty believing in a doctor who, when confronted with such a person, just nods and smiles and lets them believe what they like because
 a) arguing about it won't convince anyone,
 b) the actual explanation is too complex/nuanced to get into, and
 c) she has other patients and can't be bothered.

"We don't know [for sure]," is what Terry Pratchett (who wasn't the first to do so) calls a 'lie to children'  - a close-enough first-order approximation to a truth* - for someone like Jenny to believe, if only just to keep from having to have That Conversation with her.


*Scattercat, I'm sure you know what a 'lie to children' is - I'm including this explanation for the benefit of anyone who may not.

[CryptoMe]

P.S. This story entertained me through kilometers 22-29 of a marathon last Sunday... one of my long-standing dreams .

Cool -- so how'd you go?

Thanks for the interest, Kibitzer.
I completed the course in a "happy to finish" time of 5:35 

[Scattercat]

I have no difficulty believing that there are plenty of people like Jenny, who have a muddled idea of both 'soul' and 'clone' (or even just 'DNA'), and think that one somehow implies the other.  I also have no difficulty believing in a doctor who, when confronted with such a person, just nods and smiles and lets them believe what they like

I don't argue the plausibility of it - as mentioned elsewhere, it's silly to say what does or doesn't 'make sense' for a belief about a metaphysical concept - it's just that it seems so implicit in the story.  If we "saw" one of the characters work their way through the belief logically and come to the conclusion, I'd be okay; instead, the protag actually starts to point out that the belief is nonsensical but doesn't push the matter, and the others just seem to have this belief as a default.  That is, Jenny announces "I'm not going" and goes on to elaborate her plan in a way that suggests this is a common thing, for dying people to clone themselves in a bid for immortality, but the story doesn't address how such a bizarre misunderstanding of the science involved became conceptual coin of the realm in this posited future society.  A reference to a sitcom (as someone suggested) or almost anything, really, wouldn't have made me go "Bzuh?"  It's just the sort of presumed status of the thing.

It reminds me (structurally, not morally) of the way some older novels just assume that women are weak and frail and black people are stupid and cowardly.  It's not that the idea of an individual person having those traits that confuses me, but the implicit assumption that such things are generally true.  It's a moment of disconnect for me, and it throws me out of a story when I see characters all just assuming something without a reason to assume it. 

It's not really a big deal.  It was just kind of a "Wait, what?" moment when no one made a solid defense of the fact that cloning (to quote Morbo) DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

[Wilson Fowlie]

Jenny announces "I'm not going" and goes on to elaborate her plan in a way that suggests this is a common thing, for dying people to clone themselves in a bid for immortality

Hm, I interpreted it differently.  Probably because I (like you) know that cloning doesn't work that way, I assumed that Jenny was an outlier in her belief and everyone else - like the doctor - just let her believe it, whether they agreed with her or not.

I guess it could also have been that because the doctor failed to properly address Jenny's misconception properly, the daughters didn't argue with it, as Jenny would just use the doctor's authority as a shield.

[Unblinking]

I don't argue the plausibility of it - as mentioned elsewhere, it's silly to say what does or doesn't 'make sense' for a belief about a metaphysical concept - it's just that it seems so implicit in the story.  If we "saw" one of the characters work their way through the belief logically and come to the conclusion, I'd be okay;

I think there are plenty of people who hold a belief without really having logical reasons for those beliefs, and I considered the protagonist to be one of those people.  She believes it cuz it makes sense to her, but she hasn't necessarily considered every belief equal and weighed the options.  I'd say it's implicit in the story because it's an important aspect of the protagonist's point of view.  She believes without any particularly compelling reason TO believe, and so if the story gave any more weight to it, we would have to shift outside of her point of view.

[ElectricPaladin]

I don't argue the plausibility of it - as mentioned elsewhere, it's silly to say what does or doesn't 'make sense' for a belief about a metaphysical concept - it's just that it seems so implicit in the story.  If we "saw" one of the characters work their way through the belief logically and come to the conclusion, I'd be okay;

I think there are plenty of people who hold a belief without really having logical reasons for those beliefs, and I considered the protagonist to be one of those people.  She believes it cuz it makes sense to her, but she hasn't necessarily considered every belief equal and weighed the options.  I'd say it's implicit in the story because it's an important aspect of the protagonist's point of view.  She believes without any particularly compelling reason TO believe, and so if the story gave any more weight to it, we would have to shift outside of her point of view.

The trouble is that this isn't a world where just one person can have this crazy-ass belief. It's a world where enough people have this belief that self-cloning has become a cultural phenomenon. A force. And that's what some people are having a hard time swallowing.

[Unblinking]

I don't argue the plausibility of it - as mentioned elsewhere, it's silly to say what does or doesn't 'make sense' for a belief about a metaphysical concept - it's just that it seems so implicit in the story.  If we "saw" one of the characters work their way through the belief logically and come to the conclusion, I'd be okay;

I think there are plenty of people who hold a belief without really having logical reasons for those beliefs, and I considered the protagonist to be one of those people.  She believes it cuz it makes sense to her, but she hasn't necessarily considered every belief equal and weighed the options.  I'd say it's implicit in the story because it's an important aspect of the protagonist's point of view.  She believes without any particularly compelling reason TO believe, and so if the story gave any more weight to it, we would have to shift outside of her point of view.

The trouble is that this isn't a world where just one person can have this crazy-ass belief. It's a world where enough people have this belief that self-cloning has become a cultural phenomenon. A force. And that's what some people are having a hard time swallowing.

I just don't find it hard to believe that a large group of people would be unwilling to listen to scientific evidence if it suited their view, and that another group of people would be willing to sell them an expensive service based on this view. 

[Scattercat]

I just don't find it hard to believe that a large group of people would be unwilling to listen to scientific evidence if it suited their view, and that another group of people would be willing to sell them an expensive service based on this view.

A) As I keep saying, it's not hard to believe.  It just seemed to come out of nowhere; this is a critique of the writing, not of the plausibility of the concept.  You can write a world where people worship a Sun God, and it's utterly plausible since the sun is a major part of the life cycle and countless cultures have worshiped it in some form or another, but if your story is set in the near-future in a Western country, then you need to do a little background work to explain why this Sun God religion has grown to such proportions that it's a notable belief system.

B) Charging someone huge amounts of money for a medical procedure based on misleading or inaccurate information is fraud.  We have a lot of laws hedged around medical care and its providers because the impact is so serious and the potential for misinformation so high.  Right now, Christian Scientists can get in legal trouble for not seeking proper medical attention for their children and dependents (though they don't always lose, I'll grant); charging for cloning on the grounds that it's a recipe for immortality and not making clear the actual medical and scientific implications could get a doctor in serious hot water. 

[Unblinking]

Okay.  It still makes sense to me. 

[Loz]

We don't know why other people clone themselves do we? It's been a while since I listened to this so I might be forgetting something, but it's only that Jennyone is doing this because she thinks she'll be reincarnated as her granddaughter, and providing this is just a belief of hers and she's not mentally impaired in some way then she has a right to this service, regardless of whether she's right or wrong. Does it say anywhere in the story that the cloning company was telling her to clone herself so she'd come back as her granddaughter?