PC143: Hurt Me

[Talia]

PodCastle 143: Hurt Me

by M.L.N. Hanover

Read by Elizabeth Green Mussleman

Originally Published in Songs of Love and Death

“It’s a good, solid house,” he said, nodding as a trick to make her nod along with him.

“It is,” she said.  ”The price seems low.”

“Motivated seller,” he said with a wink.

“By what?”  She opened and closed the kitchen cabinets.

“Excuse me?”

“Motivated by what?” she said.

“Well, you know how it is,” he said, grinning.  ”Kids grow up, move on.  Families change.  A place maybe fits in one part of your life, and then you move on.”

She smiled as if he’d said something funny.

“I don’t know, actually,” she said.  ”The seller moved out because she got tired of the place?”

The realtor shrugged expansively, his mental gears whirring.  The question felt like a trap.  He wondered how much the woman had heard about the house.  He couldn’t afford to get caught in an outright lie.

Rated R: Contains Violence, Including Sexual Assault, Sex, Language

[jenfullmoon]

I have to second the feelings of "I was expecting this to go somewhere really horrible, and then it didn't, PHEW." Big time.

[Clearshades]

I really enjoyed this story but I thought it was going in a very different direction. With the implied BDSM possibility I was wondering if she was going to use the ghost to get over that preference, engage in a secret relationship where the ghost is essentially her Dom while she has a vanilla relationship for the rest or some other permutation of the positive side of that culture. As a result I was taken very much by surprise at the ending.

My only lingering doubt was "what if they have kids?" and that concern was not totally satisfied but maybe its a good thing that it left doubts.

[blueeyeddevil]

Hmmmmmm.
I want to like this story, but I am bothered because it feels a tetch manipulative.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Are you ever supposed to approve of murder?
Yes, the victim has been established as a true and total monster. This bothers me. Not only is the murder tacitly approved by the tone of the story, but her ongoing torment of the ghost is too.
[SPOILER END]


As a metaphor for dealing with the memories and scars of trauma, it works. I don't know if the sense of 'justified violence' is something to be played with lightly even in a story. Revenge stories are often difficult because, in the end, they deal with something self-destructive.

The story's ending wants you to believe it's uplifting, but I don't know if I can see it that way.

[Unblinking]

Hmm...  I listened to it all, very curious about how it would play out and how it would end.  It kept me interested throughout, but in the end it really lost me.

1.  For me the big reveal at the end made the story a complete POV failure.  Throughout the whole story I'm supposed to be relating to Cory, learning about her background, understanding her motivations.  And I thought I was, until she invited her boyfriend to stay at the house, which seemed completely out of character but I was still curious why she would do that.  And then suddenly at the very end we learn that she was the one the rumors spoke of more than 30 minutes of story prior, that she knew who the ghost was all along and was in fact his murderer, etc....  I guess it was withheld for dramatic irony, but to me this signaled complete and utter failure of Point of View, and ruined the things that I liked about the story because it turns out the apparently good characterization was just carefully crafted BS to string me along to the twist ending.  If you're going to tell a story in close perspective and let me see a character's internal thoughts and reactions, then withholding that kind of relevant backstory destroys every iota of good characterization that you've created throughout the rest of the story.  Arg.

2.  I was very confused about how this could possibly be considered a happy ending.  Dave's outro seemed to say that it was a way to allow her to heal while not denying her past.  But to me, this doesn't seem like an opportunity to heal at all.  Yes, her emotional wounds have healed badly, but this seemed akin to reopening pussy scars with a rusty knife, and then packing the wound with shards of glass before stitching it back shut again.  I can see how it's important not to just deny that the past happened, but this is way beyond that and into reveling joyously in the murder she committed, and inviting her unknowing boyfriend to live with her in this state is no better.  The neighbors say that no men have been harmed, but she's putting a lot of faith in their word on this, especially since she is a VERy special case.  She was his murderer, so it seems very likely that the previous rules of how he terrorized women may not be wholly applicable here, especially given that the ghost's jealous of her boyfriend might increase his power, at least at intervals.
I'm glad the story didn't go here, but I was expecting the final reveal to be that, even though the ghost doesn't harm men, he is capable of taking over the body of a man for a time, and he would take over the body of her boyfriend for a short while.  Like I said, I'm glad the story didn't go there, but for me the possibility is still hanging there. 
And I just don't get how her living with her boyfriend there and having sex with him in front of the ghost is going to help her at all.  She was harmed by his sadism, but I don't see how trying to make him suffer is going to make any damned difference except to satisfy her revenge fantasy.  But is her revenge fantasy going to allow her to heal?  I really doubt it.

[stePH]

Damn. I really liked this story, until I read Unblinking's post. Maybe I should just dump the forums.

[DKT]

1.  For me the big reveal at the end made the story a complete POV failure.  Throughout the whole story I'm supposed to be relating to Cory, learning about her background, understanding her motivations.  And I thought I was, until she invited her boyfriend to stay at the house, which seemed completely out of character but I was still curious why she would do that.  And then suddenly at the very end we learn that she was the one the rumors spoke of more than 30 minutes of story prior, that she knew who the ghost was all along and was in fact his murderer, etc....  I guess it was withheld for dramatic irony, but to me this signaled complete and utter failure of Point of View, and ruined the things that I liked about the story because it turns out the apparently good characterization was just carefully crafted BS to string me along to the twist ending.  If you're going to tell a story in close perspective and let me see a character's internal thoughts and reactions, then withholding that kind of relevant backstory destroys every iota of good characterization that you've created throughout the rest of the story.  Arg.

I don't feel too comfortable going into #2 (not yet, at least) because that's really more of a YMMV thing, but regarding the first point: I've read/listened to this story 5-6 times now, and I'd encourage you give it another listen. It's all there, in every scene, especially with the mother/daughter conversation. The author uses a tight and limited 3rd person POV and never lies. Actually, for me on the rereads/relistens, I'm kind of shocked I didn't see it coming, because it's so well laid out.

[Unblinking]

Damn. I really liked this story, until I read Unblinking's post. Maybe I should just dump the forums.

Don't let my tendency to overanalyze ruin your enjoyment of a story, or drive you away from the forums.  Feel free to ignore me!

In case it's not obvious, I feel very strongly about POV in stories, and this one just hit all the wrong notes for me.

[ElectricPaladin]

I have to admit that I liked Hurt Me a little more when I thought it was a BDSM story. I'm a little kinky, myself, you see, and it always tickles me to see myself reflected in fiction. That said, I probably would have been annoyed at dysfunctional kink being the only kink portrayed, so it's probably all to the good that the story took an abrupt right turn at the end. That said, I did enjoy the ending. It was a mean, bitter, empowering little story. Lots of bite and kick and all sorts of other good things. I have to admit, though, that revenge porn isn't usually my thing; in my reading life, I'm currently having a hard time getting through the second half of The Count of Monte Cristo.

And I'm a fan of the wonky, crazy, out there fantasy. What are the long term possibilities of a BDSM relationship with a dead man? What other stories could spin out of that situation? What if she gets pregnant?

I also agree that the story's conclusion isn't really a conclusion. It isn't really over, and I wonder how long it will be before Cory gets sick of tormenting her dead husband's ghost and decides that it's time to move on. I wonder how easy it will be for her to do this when the time comes. That said, non-endings don't really bother me, as a rule. I like stories that lead to other stories.

[Unblinking]

I don't feel too comfortable going into #2 (not yet, at least) because that's really more of a YMMV thing, but regarding the first point: I've read/listened to this story 5-6 times now, and I'd encourage you give it another listen. It's all there, in every scene, especially with the mother/daughter conversation. The author uses a tight and limited 3rd person POV and never lies. Actually, for me on the rereads/relistens, I'm kind of shocked I didn't see it coming, because it's so well laid out.

I have absolutely no doubt that the author was careful to avoid untruths, but this story told the truth like an Aes Sedai tells the truth, carefully giving only selective details and leaving out the most important ones  in order to give a very different impression than the actual.  That can work well in some cases, like:
1.  When the narrator believes the untruths they are telling you (i.e. in the Cask of Amontillado, there is no clear evidence that the perceived insult against the narrator ever actually occurred, but the narrator's probably insane, so he believes it).  That narrator is not intentionally lying, he's just nuts.
2.  When the narrator has an in-story reason for telling lies (i.e. The Usual Suspects)

But if the author is going for close third like this story SEEMED to be trying to do, the narrator shouldn't lie outright or through omission of important relevant details, or the reveal suddenly changes from 3rd close to 3rd selective distant with a footnote of "I fooled you, nyah nyah" from the author.  By relevant details I mean details that are relevant to the interpretations of the events occurring in the story.  For instance, I don't need to know every detail of the character's childhood, that they grew up in Detroit, that their favorite food is pizza, that they learned to play the piano when they were 4 years old.  These details included in the story may be nice window dressing but are not vital to the interpretation (except specific stories awhere those particular details are important).  However, leaving out details that are immediately relevant to interpretation of current happenings is a lie of omission that shatters the point of view.  When the neighbor tells her about the history of the house and tells about herself, and of the girlending up in an asylum, the fact that Cory is able to recognize it as her OWN history is a relevant and vital detail for her POV. Likewise when she realizes the ghost is her boyfriend prior to talking to the neighbor.  Likewise the fact that she has lived in this house before when she signs up for it way back at the beginning.

[DKT]

I don't feel too comfortable going into #2 (not yet, at least) because that's really more of a YMMV thing, but regarding the first point: I've read/listened to this story 5-6 times now, and I'd encourage you give it another listen. It's all there, in every scene, especially with the mother/daughter conversation. The author uses a tight and limited 3rd person POV and never lies. Actually, for me on the rereads/relistens, I'm kind of shocked I didn't see it coming, because it's so well laid out.

When the neighbor tells her about the history of the house and tells about herself, and of the girlending up in an asylum, the fact that Cory is able to recognize it as her OWN history is a relevant and vital detail for her POV. Likewise when she realizes the ghost is her boyfriend prior to talking to the neighbor.  Likewise the fact that she has lived in this house before when she signs up for it way back at the beginning.

See, that's why I'm recommending you give it another listen. Because she does recognize her story from the neighbors. And in the opening scene, there's a few tells as to her history in the house. As I said, it's all in there.

I don't believe we ever get inside Cory's head in this story. We only see her actions, her reactions, and hear her words.

Edited for typos/clarity

[Unblinking]

I don't feel too comfortable going into #2 (not yet, at least) because that's really more of a YMMV thing, but regarding the first point: I've read/listened to this story 5-6 times now, and I'd encourage you give it another listen. It's all there, in every scene, especially with the mother/daughter conversation. The author uses a tight and limited 3rd person POV and never lies. Actually, for me on the rereads/relistens, I'm kind of shocked I didn't see it coming, because it's so well laid out.

When the neighbor tells her about the history of the house and tells about herself, and of the girlending up in an asylum, the fact that Cory is able to recognize it as her OWN history is a relevant and vital detail for her POV. Likewise when she realizes the ghost is her boyfriend prior to talking to the neighbor.  Likewise the fact that she has lived in this house before when she signs up for it way back at the beginning.

See, that's why I'm recommending you give it another listen. Because she does recognize her story from the neighbors. And in the opening scene, there's a few tells as to her history in the house. As I said, it's all in there.

I don't believe we ever get inside Cory's head in this story. We only see her actions, her reactions, and hear her words.

Edited for typos/clarity

The story was full of her internal reactions and that implies, to me at least, that I'm in her head.  I'm told that she tastes dirty water, told when she felt aroused, told when she felt the rush of excitement.  If I'm told when the protagonist feels aroused then I consider that being pretty solidly "in her head", and if it's somehow "in her head" for that kind of reaction, but not for vital details like knowledge of her previous residence and murder inside this house, then I'd call that an inconsistent POV.

I'm not surprised that those scenes have tells that make sense on 2nd listen, but if they're written in a way that the important meaning becomes clear in hindsight then that is a form of concealment, and still breaks the POV for me.

It's not that I'm opposed to giving it a second listen, but I believe you when you say that no untruths are told, and that the clues are there if you know what's coming.  But for me that doesn't really change my opinion.

[soapturtle]

I was wondering how I knew the story you were talking about with it still being marked as unlistened to in my itunes until I saw where it was taken from.

Maybe it's because I read in text as opposed to listening, but for me the clues that she was the original abused woman were all there.  And I liked the story.  I liked that she took her life back.  That while she perhaps did not move on completely, she changed, she overcame, and grew stronger.  And no, I have no sympathy for the ghost of the murdered husband.  Perhaps that's because the story doesn't make me feel as if I was meant to, perhaps that is just because of who/how I am.  Feel free to take your pick.

Off to actually listen to the story now instead of just commenting on what I read.

[DKT]

The story was full of her internal reactions and that implies, to me at least, that I'm in her head.  I'm told that she tastes dirty water, told when she felt aroused, told when she felt the rush of excitement.  If I'm told when the protagonist feels aroused then I consider that being pretty solidly "in her head", and if it's somehow "in her head" for that kind of reaction, but not for vital details like knowledge of her previous residence and murder inside this house, then I'd call that an inconsistent POV.

Ah. See, I'd argue that because we know the water tastes dirty or because we see her react to something as if she'd been aroused, we're not really in her head. I meant deeper into her psyche/thought patterns, so apologies if I wasn't clear.

It's not that I'm opposed to giving it a second listen, but I believe you when you say that no untruths are told, and that the clues are there if you know what's coming.  But for me that doesn't really change my opinion.

Fair enough. I'll probably try and step back some myself now, as I don't want to overly influence the discussion.

[Scattercat]

Well, I mistook the ending, too, but that's because I assumed from the clues dropped that the ghost was of her abusive *father* and she had to overcome her Daddy issues before she could settle down with Mr. Right.  I was slightly disappointed that it was just her abusive ex instead.  Likewise, I thought that she was going to use that ghost as an ersatz kinky lover-on-the-side in order to avoid actually betraying Mr. Right with another man, and I was slightly nonplussed when she didn't.

I enjoyed the story and would agree strongly with EP's description of it as a "mean, bitter, and empowering" story.  It's not my preferred flavor of empowerment, and I'm not sure if you can say "living well is the best revenge" when you're openly gaining pleasure from the revenge part, but it worked within the story.

[Wilson Fowlie]

This story really worked for me, with some reservations.  And, even after reading Unblinking's analysis, I don't have a problem with the way POV was used here.  (Which is unusual for me - I'm often very much swayed by other people's opinions.)

I felt that the hide/reveal was pretty fair, in the sense of a good murder mystery, in which the author gives you just enough clues - but only just enough and no more - for you to figure out whodunnit.

Sure, the author uses misdirection and other tricks to try to make the reader misinterpret or miss the significance of the clues, but the clues are still there.  (One example from this story is the point at which Cory's mother said something about, "and in that house."  I assumed that she was referring to the rumours surrounding it, but of course, in hindsight, she was referring to the house that Cory herself lived in.)

Like a well-written mystery, I found the puzzle, and the revelation of the solution, to be quite satisfying.

My reservations about this story are similar to those of blueeyeddevil, regarding the reader's intended reaction to Cory getting away with murder (murder-plus, in fact).  However, it's not an issue with easy answers and I'm going to have to let it percolate some more.

Likewise, I thought that she was going to use that ghost as an ersatz kinky lover-on-the-side in order to avoid actually betraying Mr. Right with another man, and I was slightly nonplussed when she didn't.

Yes, exactly, except for the nonplussed part.  I was concerned about her taking the kinky lover, not because of the kink but because it was missing at least the first third, maybe two, of the "safe, sane and consensual" mantra that practitioners of kink should follow.  So for my part, I was somewhat relieved when my fears were unfounded.

[ElectricPaladin]

Likewise, I thought that she was going to use that ghost as an ersatz kinky lover-on-the-side in order to avoid actually betraying Mr. Right with another man, and I was slightly nonplussed when she didn't.

Yes, exactly, except for the nonplussed part.  I was concerned about her taking the kinky lover, not because of the kink but because it was missing at least the first third, maybe two, of the "safe, sane and consensual" mantra that practitioners of kink should follow.  So for my part, I was somewhat relieved when my fears were unfounded.

I dunno. She could be more Risk Aware Kink than Safe-Sane-Consensual. She certainly gathers enough information to imply an allegiance to RAK. RAK's a respectable point of view, even if you don't hold to it yourself.

[stePH]

Were we told how much time has passed since she previously lived in that house? How old is she, again?

[eytanz]

Were we told how much time has passed since she previously lived in that house? How old is she, again?

The estate agent thought she was in her late 30s, and it was said that 20 years had passed. But the context for both those numbers made it clear that they weren't necessarily exact, so my guess is that she's in her early 40s and that she had lived there in her early 20s.

I really liked this story; my overall reaction was quite similar to Dave's in the outro. I have more to say, but no time to say it now - I'll try to post again later.

[iamafish]

I like this story. I'll need to re-listen to it at some point to really take it in though.

I actually partly called the fact that she was the women who was abused, although when the neighbours said that she was still in the mental asylum I dismissed it. I actually thought that the 'haunting' would actually be the neighbours fucking around (literally) with people as part of some weird kink. The way we had the anticipation of the man built up made me think they'd have a role in the reveal.

[Max e^{i pi}]

I didn't really enjoy this story.
It might be because I was dozing in and out of the first 20 minutes of it on the bus, but I don't feel that I missed anything.
I just didn't really connect with any of the characters (probably because I was dozing through the main character set-up).
Also, the ending was too contrite. It's like Cory took "the best revenge is living a good life despite what they did to you" and made it into a literal, in-your-face revenge kind of thing.
I dunno, just seems too.... well, on the one hand it's a little unresolved (how will David cope? What if they have kids? etc'), and on the other hand it's too neatly wrapped up. It's like, OK, she had issues, her husband beat the shit out of her so she killed him and hid the body. This broke her mind so she spent some years in an asylum. Add in an abusive father figure and you see now why she was always attracted to violent men. But everything is OK now, because she's living the good life in the face of her raging husband's ghost. Isn't that sweet?
*shakes head*
Sorry guys, but I don't buy it.

[iamafish]

This is a problem that a lot of people seem to be having. They don't think what she ended up doing was right or healthy. The thing is that I'm not sure we're supposed to think that. I think the whole idea is that we're slightly uncomfortable with the resolution to this story. It's supposed to make us uneasy because it's a horror story. I think the writer wants us to see that what the main character ends up doing is actually pretty perverse and probably isn't going to solve her problem in the long run, but it's what she does because she thinks it's the right thing to do.

[Scattercat]

Out of curiosity, what cues lead you to that conclusion, iamafish?  The structure I see appears to follow an upward trajectory, with a tense and nervous protagonist growing in strength and confidence throughout the confrontation and leading up to the climactic clash in the basement, which the predatory spirit seems to lose resoundingly.  I agree that it's a bit distressing to me on a personal level, but I don't see much within the story itself that suggests this ending is supposed to be a Pyrrhic victory or somehow short-sighted.  The language of the ending was bitter-triumphant, not foreboding.  It appeared to me to be aiming for "It hurt, but I won at last," rather than hinting at darker things to come.

[iamafish]

I'm honestly not sure. It might just be personal conjecture. I'll get back to you when I get round to listening to this one again

[Scattercat]

Don't get me wrong: I agree with you that this method of "solving" her problems is unhealthy at best.  I just didn't see (hear?) anything in the story that suggested the author intended this to be the "wrong" resolution. 

On the flip side, sometimes we take what we can get; I doubt Cory will ever get to the state of agape/zen/enlightenment that would allow her to forgive what was done to her, but achieving self-actualization and moving on while allowing the wounds to scar over and eventually fade is at least more positive than wallowing in the past until it drowns her, and I think the story does acknowledge that Cory's choices aren't necessarily the best ones.  I just don't see anything cautionary or any suggestion that this was meant to be a horror-story ending.

[Talia]

But everything is OK now

The story didn't suggest that to me personally, more that it was her way of announcing victory over that particular demon, or her way of saying he no longer held power over her. The story didn't say her life was going to be all sunshine and rainbows henceforth, just that, perhaps, she wouldn't be quite so burdened by the past.

[danooli]

I'm in the camp that believes murder is wrong and finds it a tad difficult to sympathize with Cory.  That is NOT to say that I discount the abuse she endured and suffered through.  Not at all.  But what she did ultimately led to many other women and girls being abused by her husband.  Granted, she had no way of knowing he would end up as a ghost...but she DID murder him instead of leaving him or having him prosecuted.  I wonder if she can call an exorcist?

That said, I did enjoy the story.  To me, the pace was just right and the tense tone of it worked to keep me interested enough to care about Cory and David, even if I couldn't sympathize with her at the end after the reveal.  (Mom was a bitch though.)  The reading, in my opinion, was perfect.

[Rain]

Up untill the end i thought it was going to be about BDSM aswell, i still wouldnt have liked the story but atleast it would have been interesting.

I felt that the ending took away any kind of horror elements, and we were left with a rather tame story that wasnt scary at all, and really, is her boyfriend going to move in and not notice that a ghost is violating her every night?

[Scattercat]

and really, is her boyfriend going to move in and not notice that a ghost is violating her every night?

The ghost can't hurt her.  She confronted it and taunted it with that knowledge.  So yes, her boyfriend is going to move in and likely not notice anything.

[Unblinking]

and really, is her boyfriend going to move in and not notice that a ghost is violating her every night?

The ghost can't hurt her.  She confronted it and taunted it with that knowledge.  So yes, her boyfriend is going to move in and likely not notice anything.

I think that's what the author intended but I wasn't particularly convinced of that. 

I felt that the hide/reveal was pretty fair, in the sense of a good murder mystery, in which the author gives you just enough clues - but only just enough and no more - for you to figure out whodunnit.

I wouldn't say this sort of misdirection is akin to a murder mystery.  Unless it was a murder mystery in which the narrator turns out to have been the killer all along.  Which would really annoy me.  I haven't read any Sherlock Holmes stories, but I believe they're told from the POV of Watson.  This allows Holmes to keep secrets from the reader without violating the established POV, so that the reader can follow the facts and try to reach the conclusions themselves.

[Unblinking]

Ah. See, I'd argue that because we know the water tastes dirty or because we see her react to something as if she'd been aroused, we're not really in her head. I meant deeper into her psyche/thought patterns, so apologies if I wasn't clear.

No need to apologize; I thought your meaning was clear enough.  I think where we differ is my opinion that having a narrator who lies to the reader directly or through omission makes for a bad POV.  "Bad" in this case meaning that it disconnects me from the character rather than connecting me.

Also, IMO a narrator who tells me her internal reactions is implicitly allowing me "in her head", and if she is able to conceal important details from me the POV is, at best, inconsistent.

[stePH]

I'm in the camp that believes murder is wrong and finds it a tad difficult to sympathize with Cory.  That is NOT to say that I discount the abuse she endured and suffered through. 

I don't condone murder either, but men like whatshisname make me sympathetic to the "he needed killing" defense.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm in the camp that believes murder is wrong and finds it a tad difficult to sympathize with Cory.  That is NOT to say that I discount the abuse she endured and suffered through. 

I don't condone murder either, but men like whatshisname make me sympathetic to the "he needed killing" defense.

I dunno. I could totally see writing an interesting story from the ghost's point of view: "sure, I was a violent jerk in life, but she could have just left me. She didn't need to blow me apart with a shotgun. And since then, I've been happy to just try to keep my house empty so I can brood in peace, but here she comes, moving in, defying me, and getting set to torment me forever. Don't I ever get to rest?"

[Wilson Fowlie]

... what she did ultimately led to many other women and girls being abused by her husband.  Granted, she had no way of knowing he would end up as a ghost...but she DID murder him instead of leaving him or having him prosecuted.

Sadly, having him prosecuted is as (or more?) likely to lead to him being free to abuse other women.  At least in this case, it was restricted to the (few) women who entered this particular house.  A wrongfully freed abuser has the whole population of women and girls to choose from.

Also, by coming back and taking over the house, Cory is keeping him from being able to abuse anyone further, at least until she dies.  Hopefully she'll arrange in her will for the house to be demolished, or an exorcism to be performed*, or something.  Or, perhaps, before she gives birth to a daughter.

(Note that I'm not condoning the murder, just saying that this isn't necessarily a reason to judge against it.)



*Since ghosts exist in this story, presumably exorcisms have an effect, unlike in real life.

[tinygaia]

Didn't see the end coming. I had to listen to it again for the full effect. After the elderly neighbors said that men never see the ghost, I was really thinking she was going to take a ghostly abusive lover on the side and her nice not-kinky boyfriend would never be the wiser. I'm glad that wasn't how it went, because I don't hold with cheating, even ghostly cheating. Anyway, on second listen, I notice that the neighbors never specify that the ghost was actually doing physical damage to the women, just scaring them senseless with his powerful hate. After the conversation with the neighbors, when she confronts the ghost, it doesn't actually inflict any pain - it tries to, but nothing happens.

This is going to sound odd, but what bugs me about the ending is that she murdered him in secret and hid the body in the house. Someone earlier referred to it as "revenge porn" - If she had truly killed him in self defense, had confessed to the crime, and served a sentence for it, I'd be all for "I'm going back to that house to torment the ghost now." That would be revenge. But going back to the house after getting away with murder was what crossed the line into "revenge porn."

Also, I know I read too many ghost stories because it crossed my mind that the ghost wouldn't be there if she hadn't hid the body in the basement. Hiding bodies is one of the things that causes ghosts! And if she ever gets tired of the ghost, all she has to do is dig up the body. Does anyone else think like this?

[Wilson Fowlie]

I dunno. I could totally see writing an interesting story from the ghost's point of view: "sure, I was a violent jerk in life, but she could have just left me. She didn't need to blow me apart with a shotgun. And since then, I've been happy to just try to keep my house empty so I can brood in peace, but here she comes, moving in, defying me, and getting set to torment me forever. Don't I ever get to rest?"

Wow, really?  I can't imagine any story that would make me sympathize with this guy.  Even as a ghost with blood pouring from his chest, he's fixated on hating and hurting women.

And abusive men generally do not take well to being left by their victims. They want to be the ones in power and allowing her to decide when to leave gives her too much power. She almost certainly could not have left him, at least not easily.

[ElectricPaladin]

I dunno. I could totally see writing an interesting story from the ghost's point of view: "sure, I was a violent jerk in life, but she could have just left me. She didn't need to blow me apart with a shotgun. And since then, I've been happy to just try to keep my house empty so I can brood in peace, but here she comes, moving in, defying me, and getting set to torment me forever. Don't I ever get to rest?"

Wow, really?  I can't imagine any story that would make me sympathize with this guy.  Even as a ghost with blood pouring from his chest, he's fixated on hating and hurting women.

And abusive men generally do not take well to being left by their victims. They want to be the ones in power and allowing her to decide when to leave gives her too much power. She almost certainly could not have left him, at least not easily.

A lot of people forget that abusive partners are humans, too. No one is born bad. Things - usually really bad things - have happened to these people that lead them to become who they are. I don't take away an abuser's responsibility for his own actions - he's still a jerk, he's still culpable for his actions - but they're just people. They're human, too. I don't have a lot of sympathy for them being found out and humiliated, losing friends and lovers, and generally living lonely and pitiful lives. I mean, that's what you get when you treat people badly. But death - and the way it blots out all possibility of redemption - is something I can feel sorry about.

[eytanz]

That said, the ghost in this story very clearly isn't trying to keep his house empty, but rather, as the story points out at several times, hates women and wishes to terrify them (or worse, but it seems like it has no ability to physically harm anyone). Remember, his hate is strong enough that it projects to the neighbour's house on occasions.

[Rain]

and really, is her boyfriend going to move in and not notice that a ghost is violating her every night?

The ghost can't hurt her.  She confronted it and taunted it with that knowledge.  So yes, her boyfriend is going to move in and likely not notice anything.

Her assumption is that the ghost will leave them alone, if she shows it that she doesnt care what it does to her, nothing in the story actually confirms that, for all we know the ghost could call her bluff and continue.

[Loz]

I loved it. It took the metaphorical ghosts that haunt us and make them, or one of them, real and shows us how to overcome them. I did feel queasy as the story developed, too many stories in all media seem to think that all you need to do to have a horror story is woman + torture, but this story really wrongfooted me in a way I ultimately enjoyed. This guy seemed like such a creep that even death doesn't stop him trying to abuse women, and doing it when men weren't around too. The worst kind of coward and bully.

[eytanz]

and really, is her boyfriend going to move in and not notice that a ghost is violating her every night?

The ghost can't hurt her.  She confronted it and taunted it with that knowledge.  So yes, her boyfriend is going to move in and likely not notice anything.

Her assumption is that the ghost will leave them alone, if she shows it that she doesnt care what it does to her, nothing in the story actually confirms that, for all we know the ghost could call her bluff and continue.

The story established two things:

1 - Men were never able to percieve the ghost. This could, of course, have been the ghost's decision, but in the past it has only manifested to women.

2 - The ghost was not capable of having any physical effect on its environment, not even when Cory provoked it as much as she could. It was not capable of moving objects, or hurting her, or even touching her.

Now, it's true that nothing in the story states explicitly that the ghost can't change the rules tomorrow. But I don't think she expects the ghost to just sulk and not interfere. I think she expects it to manifest around her all the time, but her boyfriend won't know, and she will not care. I think the story itself implies she is right.

[asgardian]

I liked this one, and had no POV issues when listening.  I was surprised by the end, but like most others, felt it left far to many open questions.  No, I don't think every little thing needs to be tied up in a story, but I think the 'surprise ending' created more issues then it solved, and not necessarily for the better.

Not much else to say that has not already been said....

[tbucks]

Moving.  The closing comments touched me.  Beautiful.  Deep thanks for sharing this story. 

[Rain]

and really, is her boyfriend going to move in and not notice that a ghost is violating her every night?

The ghost can't hurt her.  She confronted it and taunted it with that knowledge.  So yes, her boyfriend is going to move in and likely not notice anything.

Her assumption is that the ghost will leave them alone, if she shows it that she doesnt care what it does to her, nothing in the story actually confirms that, for all we know the ghost could call her bluff and continue.

The story established two things:

1 - Men were never able to percieve the ghost. This could, of course, have been the ghost's decision, but in the past it has only manifested to women.

2 - The ghost was not capable of having any physical effect on its environment, not even when Cory provoked it as much as she could. It was not capable of moving objects, or hurting her, or even touching her.

I could be completely wrong but

1. I thought that it just didnt care about men, not that they couldnt see it.

2. I  had the distinct impression that the ghost actually tried to rape the women, and that it had no problem doing physical things to them and that it simply wanted to scare Cory first.

[eytanz]

I could be completely wrong but

1. I thought that it just didnt care about men, not that they couldnt see it.

The neighbour said that the male occupants of the house never saw anything but that their girlfriends refused to stay there. It could be that the ghost just avoided appearing in front of the men and only appeared when the women were alone, though, so you could well be right about this.

2. I  had the distinct impression that the ghost actually tried to rape the women, and that it had no problem doing physical things to them and that it simply wanted to scare Cory first.

The neighbour never mentioned any physical contact, just that the ghost would appear and threaten the women. The confrontation in the kitchen with Cory was her trying to goad it into doing something to her other than just appear, and the ghost didn't - given what we know of its behavior, I think it's very unlikely that it was being subtle or tricky. The whole point of her asking him "hurt me" was not that she was hoping he would, but that she was trying to challenge him in order to prove that he was impotent. And the fact that the story made it very clear that she *was* very much afraid at that point was meant to show, I think, that it wasn't her lack of fear that protected her, but rather that she was safe all along.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that the ghost could have some way of harming Cory and/or Danny, but I think the story gave Cory very good reasons to believe otherwise.

[Scattercat]

The neighbor explicitly stated that the thing in the house "wanted" the women and chased after them, but that it never successfully caught one.  The neighbor attributed this to the idea that the women fled the house before they succumbed, but the ending suggests that this was not necessarily the case.

[kibitzer]

Wow.

Like everyone else the story didn't go where I thought it was going, but where it did go was moving and affecting.

Wow.

I seriously considered giving this one a miss. I couldn't make it all the way through Flat Diane over on EP -- about halfway through I switched it off. So I thought this might be another "too dark for my sensibilities" story. Maybe I should go back and finish Flat Diane?

I acknowledge the concerns about condoning murder but that honestly didn't occur to me while I was listening. I was too taken in with the story.

[yicheng]

Great story!  The surprise twist at the end had me gasping and screaming "Whoa!!".  Luckily I was driving alone in my car at the time.

[Reginod]

Before I jump into the conversation I have to say that I loved this as a story.  It seemed to reverse, in interesting ways, a number of horror story tropes (the poor single woman who buys the haunted house—not tricked into it at all, the kindly neighbors a little too interested in the haunted house—actually kind neighbors, etc.).  This was a great listen for me.
I also have to say that I’ve worked with the victims of domestic violence (mostly helping them obtain restraining orders) and this ghost reminds me of far too many of the men I’ve met in court.  So this story hit a little close to home, but, for me, it had a much happier ending than too many of these situations do in real life.  It may make me a bad person, but I was cheering Cory on at the end and I think I’ll keep this on my iPod for the drive home after particularly frustrating days in court.

That being said, to ElectricPaladin’s point about a story from the ghost’s point of view, I didn’t read (hear) this as a horror story for Cory I read this as a horror story for the ghost.  (Obviously not from his POV).  When the story ended I had a good feel for who and what the ghost was – I had a sense of his rage and hate and misogyny, his sense of owning Cory, and I could imagine what it would feel like for him to impotently watch as she lived her life with another man on the ghost’s grave.  For that ghost I can’t imagine a more horrific fate.  To me, it seemed like the twist at the end wasn’t that the ghost was the monster, but that it, in a twisted way, had become the victim.  And I think that’s what really did it for me, the story had me empathizing with the abuser and what he was suffering (or would suffer) while I had been, and in many ways still was, cheering Cory on.   

[Listener]

To me the best parts of the story were the setting -- the house, the attention to detail -- and the way the final scene's setting was written. Not necessarily the conversation, but the blood, Cory still drinking her tea, etc.

After the elderly neighbors said that men never see the ghost, I was really thinking she was going to take a ghostly abusive lover on the side and her nice not-kinky boyfriend would never be the wiser.

I like that interpretation better, myself. It's kind of the direction I thought the story would go. Either that or more overt BDSM between Cory and the ghost.

I wonder if part of the reason so many abused characters kill their abusers in fiction is because, in real life, killing one's abuser is at best justifiable homicide and at worst murder in the first degree, which puts the abused person in prison.

[Peter Tupper]

I liked this spin on the classic Gothic ghost story, and the idea that we the living can haunt ghosts in return.

However, if the protagonist ever has a daughter, or even female friends over, things might get a little uncomfortable.

[Dave]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks this is just the prelude to a much longer, much darker story?

I mean, nobody actually thinks this was a happy ending, right?

I liked how the story kept me guessing for a long while. Usually I figure out the gimmick in this sort of tale pretty early on. Good stuff, but, like I said, the terror is just beginning here.

[Raj]

I think that everything regarding the story itself has already been said, save that I really enjoyed the neighbours (I couldn't help thinking of them as British, for some reason, maybe it was the tea and cocoa).  I sort of kept expecting them to turn out to be evil or in league with the ghost and was quite glad when they weren't.

Also, I loved Elizabeth Green Mussleman's narration of the story.  I thought that she got the different voices and emotions just about perfect.

[eytanz]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks this is just the prelude to a much longer, much darker story?

Going where exactly? We can debate whether the ending was happy or not (though I think that's sort of the wrong way to put it), but I find it hard to see this story as a prelude to anything.

[Talia]

I mean, nobody actually thinks this was a happy ending, right?

I kinda do, actually. If by "happy" meaning it suggests to me the protagonist will live out the rest of her days relatively contentedly, alabeit a free murderess. It was her telling the ghost "see? You have no power over me anymore. Sod off." and going back to her life and her much healthier relationship.

[Unblinking]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks this is just the prelude to a much longer, much darker story?

Going where exactly? We can debate whether the ending was happy or not (though I think that's sort of the wrong way to put it), but I find it hard to see this story as a prelude to anything.

One or more of the following (and possibly some others):

1. Ghost possesses boyfriend and cycle begins anew.  This is where I thought the story was going itself, so the thought was still in my mind at the end and the story did not convince me that it is impossible.

2.  Cory's relationships get worse and worse as she plays out her exhibitionist revenge fantasy with her ghosty nemesis.

3.  Cory eventually goes insane.  Just because the ghost may not be able to physically harm her doesn't mean it can't affect her.

[eytanz]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks this is just the prelude to a much longer, much darker story?

Going where exactly? We can debate whether the ending was happy or not (though I think that's sort of the wrong way to put it), but I find it hard to see this story as a prelude to anything.

One or more of the following (and possibly some others):

1. Ghost possesses boyfriend and cycle begins anew.  This is where I thought the story was going itself, so the thought was still in my mind at the end and the story did not convince me that it is impossible.

The story definitely doesn't rule it out, in that same way that, say, Star Wars doesn't rule out Han Solo dying from a peanut allergy two minutes after the end of Revenge of the Jedi, but there's no indication that the ghost can possess anyone, so I wouldn't say it's supported by the story either.

2.  Cory's relationships get worse and worse as she plays out her exhibitionist revenge fantasy with her ghosty nemesis.

Possible, but this one goes directly against Cory's actions and words in the story. Especially since her revenge fantasy is "I'm going to have a good relationship where you can see it". It's possible that she's not as self aware as she thinks, but I don't think the story gives us any overt reason to question its narrative to this degree.

3.  Cory eventually goes insane.  Just because the ghost may not be able to physically harm her doesn't mean it can't affect her.

This is the most likely of the three, in my opinion. It goes against my own reading, but unlike the other two, it doesn't rely on introducing a new ghostly power or mistrusting everything Cory says, it only relies on the idea that Cory overestimates her ability to control the situation. Which I do think is consistent with the story, and supported by at least some of it (like the conversation with her mother).

However, I don't think the story actually suggests any follow-up of this nature. I think it compatible with one, but it still needs to be supplied by the reader. Which makes me still resistant to calling it a "just the prelude" to anything.

Also, as I hinted on in the last reply, I think the question of Cory's fate after the story ends is the wrong one. To me, the more interesting question this story raises is: "Cory murdered her abuser, hid his body, and now subjugated his ghost. Did she have the right to do that? Did the husband deserve his fate? What sort of person does that make Cory?" Giving the story the holywood horror sequel treatment ("you thought it was all ok, but...") just seems like a very superficial approach.


[/quote]

[ElectricPaladin]

Also, as I hinted on in the last reply, I think the question of Cory's fate after the story ends is the wrong one. To me, the more interesting question this story raises is: "Cory murdered her abuser, hid his body, and now subjugated his ghost. Did she have the right to do that? Did the husband deserve his fate? What sort of person does that make Cory?"

I agree that this is by far the more interesting question. What's your answer?

[eytanz]

Also, as I hinted on in the last reply, I think the question of Cory's fate after the story ends is the wrong one. To me, the more interesting question this story raises is: "Cory murdered her abuser, hid his body, and now subjugated his ghost. Did she have the right to do that? Did the husband deserve his fate? What sort of person does that make Cory?"

I agree that this is by far the more interesting question. What's your answer?

I don't really have one - while listening to the story, I was very much worried about Cory and then at the end massively relieved once I understood what was going on. Later, I realized I was suckered into a revenge fantasy by a murderess. But then again, we don't know what happened when she killed him - was it premeditated? an accident? neither? - and the ghost was very clearly not just passive but still engaged in behaviour that deserved some sort of punishment. And Cory was, perhaps, in a unique position to deliver it.

So yeah, I'm not sure. Part of the reason I find that question interesting is because I don't know how to answer it.

[kibitzer]

...But then again, we don't know what happened when she killed him - was it premeditated? an accident? neither?...

I think we do, or at least my recollection of the story says so. I seem to recall that when the ghost was standing the the kitchen doorway there was some kind of awful chest/head wound. Couple that with Cory's possession of a shotgun, which she kept under her bed, and I think we can say it was, on some level, premeditated. (a) Possession of a shotgun in this situation implies the thought of using it; (b) It was probably kept in the same place when she lived there before; (c) a shotgun is not a self-defense weapon i.e. something you pick up, like a kitchen knife, in an extremity of terror. If it was under the bed she'd have to deliberately go get it. It's possible she was chased in there by her husband and she reached under the bed to get it, but less likely.

[Unblinking]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks this is just the prelude to a much longer, much darker story?

Going where exactly? We can debate whether the ending was happy or not (though I think that's sort of the wrong way to put it), but I find it hard to see this story as a prelude to anything.

One or more of the following (and possibly some others):

1. Ghost possesses boyfriend and cycle begins anew.  This is where I thought the story was going itself, so the thought was still in my mind at the end and the story did not convince me that it is impossible.

The story definitely doesn't rule it out, in that same way that, say, Star Wars doesn't rule out Han Solo dying from a peanut allergy two minutes after the end of Revenge of the Jedi, but there's no indication that the ghost can possess anyone, so I wouldn't say it's supported by the story either.

2.  Cory's relationships get worse and worse as she plays out her exhibitionist revenge fantasy with her ghosty nemesis.

Possible, but this one goes directly against Cory's actions and words in the story. Especially since her revenge fantasy is "I'm going to have a good relationship where you can see it". It's possible that she's not as self aware as she thinks, but I don't think the story gives us any overt reason to question its narrative to this degree.

3.  Cory eventually goes insane.  Just because the ghost may not be able to physically harm her doesn't mean it can't affect her.

This is the most likely of the three, in my opinion. It goes against my own reading, but unlike the other two, it doesn't rely on introducing a new ghostly power or mistrusting everything Cory says, it only relies on the idea that Cory overestimates her ability to control the situation. Which I do think is consistent with the story, and supported by at least some of it (like the conversation with her mother).

However, I don't think the story actually suggests any follow-up of this nature. I think it compatible with one, but it still needs to be supplied by the reader. Which makes me still resistant to calling it a "just the prelude" to anything.

Also, as I hinted on in the last reply, I think the question of Cory's fate after the story ends is the wrong one. To me, the more interesting question this story raises is: "Cory murdered her abuser, hid his body, and now subjugated his ghost. Did she have the right to do that? Did the husband deserve his fate? What sort of person does that make Cory?" Giving the story the holywood horror sequel treatment ("you thought it was all ok, but...") just seems like a very superficial approach.

[/quote]

It's not that it should be given the Hollywood horror sequel treatment, but you said you find it hard to see it as a prelude to anything, and these were the things that crossed my mind while listening that would happen during the story itself.  They didn't end up happening in story but they still seem like pretty likely next events to me.  You referred to the Hollywood horror sequel as "you thought it was all ok, but...", but I don't think that it is all okay at the end.  Far from it.

1.  He has never possessed anyone before, but he has never had his murderer living in his house before.  If anything could drive him to a frenzy of previously unseen power, that would be it.  I'm not saying that it's likely, necessarily, only that I don't believe that past residents' experience is necessarily indicative of how powerful he will be now with her intentionally goading him.

2.  Yup, it goes against her actions and words because it seems pretty clear to me that she's an unreliable narrator.  Not that she's lying to me, but that she's lying to herself about her motivations.  Do you really  think that she just wants to have a good relationship where the ghost can see it?  When said in that vague manner it doesn't sound so sinister, except that she's inviting her boyfriend to live in her house where she knows that their every act will be an exhibition for the ghost and she hasn't told him.  She's going to get pleasure from doing their everyday actions, including sex, in front of her dead boyfriend without her living boyfriend's consent or knowledge.  Whether he deserves it or not, her motivations here are very questionable to me.  I do not see this relationship lasting, at least not in any healthy manner.  Or any relationship when she is still living in this house.

[eytanz]

it seems pretty clear to me that she's an unreliable narrator.

Um, you can say a lot of things about this story, but one thing that can be said is surely incontroversial is that she's not a narrator of any type.

[Kaa]

I was ready to hate this story, because I don't generally like stories that are announced as containing graphic violence or sexual assault.

Surprisingly, I really enjoyed it. Because what I DO really love is a juicy REVENGE story.

[Wilson Fowlie]

Surprisingly, I really enjoyed it. Because what I DO really love is a juicy REVENGE story.

Yes, it's right there in your avatar's eyes. 

[DKT]

...But then again, we don't know what happened when she killed him - was it premeditated? an accident? neither?...

I think we do, or at least my recollection of the story says so. I seem to recall that when the ghost was standing the the kitchen doorway there was some kind of awful chest/head wound. Couple that with Cory's possession of a shotgun, which she kept under her bed, and I think we can say it was, on some level, premeditated. (a) Possession of a shotgun in this situation implies the thought of using it; (b) It was probably kept in the same place when she lived there before; (c) a shotgun is not a self-defense weapon i.e. something you pick up, like a kitchen knife, in an extremity of terror. If it was under the bed she'd have to deliberately go get it. It's possible she was chased in there by her husband and she reached under the bed to get it, but less likely.

Kibitzer, I think Cory has the shotgun in the present, but I don't believe there's any indication that she was the owner in the past. It is clear her husband (Nash) was shot, but we don't know the circumstances.

However, Nash is a guy who threatened to cut off someone's cock for interferring in his relationship, so while I think it's entirely plausible that Cory's act was premeditated, I think it just as plausible that it was an act of self-defense - that the gun in question was Nash's, and that she defended herself with it when he was beating her.

[Unblinking]

it seems pretty clear to me that she's an unreliable narrator.

Um, you can say a lot of things about this story, but one thing that can be said is surely incontroversial is that she's not a narrator of any type.

I suppose "narrator" wasn't the right word.  How about "unreliable protagonist".  Despite the story being in 3rd person, the narrative is still flowing through her perceptions, and so can still be altered by her perceptions, thus making the narrative potentially unreliable.  I still consider my point valid.

[Gamercow]

I don't think I liked anyone in this story, with the possible exception of Cory's boyfriend.  And maybe I just pity the poor bastard.

[Dave]

"2.  Yup, it goes against her actions and words because it seems pretty clear to me that she's an unreliable narrator.  Not that she's lying to me, but that she's lying to herself about her motivations.  Do you really  think that she just wants to have a good relationship where the ghost can see it?  When said in that vague manner it doesn't sound so sinister, except that she's inviting her boyfriend to live in her house where she knows that their every act will be an exhibition for the ghost and she hasn't told him.  She's going to get pleasure from doing their everyday actions, including sex, in front of her dead boyfriend without her living boyfriend's consent or knowledge.  Whether he deserves it or not, her motivations here are very questionable to me.  I do not see this relationship lasting, at least not in any healthy manner.  Or any relationship when she is still living in this house."

Thanks, Unblinking, for hitting the nail on the head for me.

I don't feel sorry for Cory no matter how things end up, but I definitely feel sorry for her new beau, because the full weight of the horror is poised to descend on his head; whether it will be natural or supernatural doesn't really matter in the end.

[FireTurtle]

My reaction of surprise and relief at the ending is happily common, I see. Uncommonly this story stirred in me all kind if thoughts a out how events in life can break us so deeply that in reshaping ourselves - even into something wonderful- the pieces we are left to work with lead us to create a life thy is very different than the one we could have had if we had never been broken in the first place. A la fractured marble. Ok. Philosophic pointlessness aside..... One word comes to mind for me as a descriptor for this story:
Satisfaction.

Not mine, mind you, the protag's.

[LaShawn]

Wow. This is one of those rare stories when I listened, got to the end, rewound, and listened to it all over again.

I thought the way the story withheld information was brilliant. It actually was all there if you knew where to look. The best was when she's talking to her mother and she kept ragging about the house. Because we don't know the history yet, we think she's just talking about moving out on her own. But the author doesn't infodump or use another character to completely lay out the past. The mother already *knows* the past of the house. She doesn't need to spell it out to her daughter.

I found the confrontation powerful. confronting her past abuser took guts. At the same time, the ending did make me feel a little queasy. She is getting away with murder--was it justified? I don't know.Would the story be stronger if we knew that she was the one who killed the man.

There are no easy answers with this story. And I love that.
Edit: Ooo, and the ending quote is Neil Gaiman! AWESOMESAUCE!

[Zuishness]

I like this one.
I think she's been damaged and she's dragging her innocent new boyfriend into a world of bitterness, hatred and spite.
A nice, horrific ending.

[Fenrix]

I think we're missing the real story here. What did PodCastle give in trade to PseudoPod for this story? Didn't they used to have a basket of kittens?

[DKT]

Well, yeah. But we sacrificed those at the end of October!