Author Topic: Oh Noes! Lesbians!  (Read 13434 times)

Tang!

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on: February 28, 2011, 03:42:52 PM
+=YAWN=+

Just another one out of ten lesbian stories.   

I wrote a note weeks ago about how the last time I was in the car and playing a podcast, and the writer threw in some superfluous lesbian scene - and my passenger piped up immediately how this podcast was lesbian themed and just, "in the closet" (she even made up her own name which was pretty catchy and stuck in my head).

Now- *I* had been getting more and more tired of the lesbians as time had gone on, but until I had heard somebody else GO OFF on a rant.. I thought it was just me...

Later I wrote a note to the editors voicing just how tired I was of hearing about lesbian lovers seemingly constantly.   And I asked if they would count up just how many stories HAD to have some of this girl-on-girl action in it.  Now - don't get me wrong- I am not opposed to some hot lez action on its own.. but when it's coming to me in 1 out of every 10 podcasts... .. it really starts to taint the actual stories involved.  Yup-  the editors stepped up to the plate and did the work of counting.  And they came back saying that it was about 1 in ten of the past year or so had some good womanly loving in it.  And they saw nothing wrong with it.

Now - I just must not have articulated myself well enough (not a crazy thought there) but my point was that if one out of every ten stories had a T-Rex in it, I would feel the same.  It would be the same if one in ten had a touch of Zombie, or a touch of Robot.  It reminds me of those shameless product placements in some of the old movies like "Cannonball Run". They'd pretty much stop the scene, look into the camera and hold up the product, and then go back to the scene.   

Those Product Placements had their own comedic value at least, and the movie WAS A COMEDY.  But holding up a hot lesbian couple in every 10 episodes has a cumulative effect.  And this wasn't branded as a lesbian-centric podcast.

 
"God-  not ANOTHER damned T-Rex.... Do ALL of these stories HAVE to have a T-Rex in it to get into an episode?"

Like anyone I can and do brush off parts in any story that I really don't have much interest in, but this constant theme of superfluous lesbianism has gotten to the point with me that I just shut the podcast down.  The Product Placements come just too often for me these days.  It wasn't even noticeable at first, but maybe since I am a long time listener than it really IS the cumulative effect hitting me hard.

To quote a character in Jim Butcher's in Dead Beat:

"Exactly," Butters said. "Multiply that. These guys and other
athletes take a huge beating, right? They develop a mental and
physical toughness that lets them ignore a lot of pain and
overcome the damage, but the damage gets done to their bodies
nonetheless. And it's cumulative. That's why you see football
players, boxers, a lot of guys like that all beat to hell by the time
they're in their thirties. They regain most of the function after an
injury, but the damage is still there, and it adds up bit by bit."

It has turned into a joke with my friend and I (she has since unsubscribed over the repetition) whenever I bring up what I have listened to in the past.

The constant repetition of material just makes me stop listening as soon as the lady-love starts coming out. Either I switch it off in my head, or I do it physically more and more. Does it REALLY matter that the character is a lesbain and having sex?  Does it add anything to the story itself?  I know I am missing a good story by shutting off- but it's just not worth it to have the story intertwined yet again with some meaningless lesbian drivel.

Anyway - After I wrote the note and got the response I kept subscribed for those other 9 stories.  And the next podcast revolved around gay bears... Although I would have never had EVER guessed I would have said it, after the story I actually said aloud, "HOORAY FOR GAY BEAR-MEN!!"

I have all the respect in the world for the staff here - and this is their BABY.  They all bleed and breathe life into this podcast - nurture and care for it as a living thing.  They want it to be as big and as great and as wonderful as it can be - and I am all for that.  I don't write this just to rant and rave - but to bring to light that it's just not me getting tired and worn down by this recurring topic.  If the baby needs to come out of the closet - then please.. bring her out in full view and stand tall!  If not, then please.. PLEASE.. hear my plea.  Get off the broken lesbian record before you drive long-time listeners like me away.  I HAVE your t-shirt, I am a faithful listener - I have introduced at least 50 people to your show, and I've spoken good words, and sent good energies your way.  I want you to do well - and I want to enjoy your works.

I am just so tired.  I’m holding on for the other stories – really 10% shouldn’t be anything that drives me away… should it?  Every time I listen now, I am awaiting for that old lesbian shoe to drop - and for the disappointment to begin.


 



Bdoomed

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Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 04:22:08 PM
Disclaimer: not speaking as a moderator here, don't take this as such, I am simply speaking as a fellow listener :)

I don't see anything wrong with 1 in 10 stories having gay/lesbian themes.  I feel like you find fault in this simply because you keep noticing it.  I would bet that there are many more themes that surface 1 in 10 times, themes that you haven't noticed and thus do not care about.  What are these themes?  I don't know, but I'm sure they are there.  It is quite possible that 1 in 10 stories have gratuitous space battles, or gratuitous heterosexual sex scenes, or gratuitous SF references, any number of things that don't matter simply because you haven't noticed them.

Or I could be completely wrong.  I honestly do not know, however I think the argument that 10% is a large number of stories to contain a small theme is ridiculous.  It is even more ridiculous to insinuate that this podcast is 'lesbian centered' by airing stories that contain that theme 10% of the time.  I don't believe 10% can ever constitute centrality.  I think this podcast might be better branded an SF centered podcast because... hmm well every story has an SF element in it!  That's 100%!

EP does not claim to cater to everyone's tastes all the time.  They sample from many different stories based on the editor's choice of what would be great and fun in audio.  If authors are writing good fiction with lesbian themes in them, then those stories are going to be picked just as frequently as well written stories without lesbian themes.  How is 10% "constant repetition of material"?  If there were 2 out of 10 stories with characters eating cheese in a scene or two, would that bother you?  "Does it REALLY matter that the character is a cheese lover and enjoying some cheese?"  No, not really, but it wouldn't bother me to read about cheese loving characters enjoying their cheese.  That just lets me know more about those characters.  (this is a dumb argument I know)

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Kanasta

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Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 04:22:55 PM
I've no particular interest in hearing lesbian stories either but on the other hand, lesbians are hardly like T Rexes or Zombies, are they (as in, they are real, and some of them probably listen to this podcast too)? As it is estimated that 10% of the population is gay, I suppose 10% of the stories matching that ratio means the podcast is merely representative of the human population?

I also got a bit bored with the endless ladytree sex in this though; I kind of felt like "Yeah, got the message.. tree people get you hot.. moving on". Although I did like the bit about her tweaking her own durian. I'm just puerile I guess.



ElectricPaladin

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Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 04:32:19 PM
I wasn't going to say anything... but after Tang's post I have to. Sorry, Tang, I don't want to beat up on you... but I think I will.

Look, I don't want to accuse anyone of being homophobic, but it seems to me that almost every time there's a gay-themed episode - or even an episode with gay characters - the feedback is overwhelmingly negative. Especially if they dare to get it on gayly or - God help them - if they are lesbians. I don't know why lesbians are on this community's shit list, but they are.

Seriously, how many other stories get responses like "*YAWN*" or "Forty minutes of my life I can't have back" or rants about how terrible it is to liste to what turns someone else on. We aren't this rude to or dismissive of stories about straight sex.

What the hell? I didn't even like this story.

Anyway, I'm not going to dig into Tang's post and rip out all the homophobic and heteronormative stuff, because that probably would get the mods mad at me. What I am going to say is this: probably roughly one in ten people in the world are gay and about half of them are lesbians. That means that probably a little more than one in ten of Escape Pod's listenership is gay (I say more because of speculative fiction's long history of attracting members of other culturally marginalized and stigmatized groups). If one in ten Escape Pod listeners are gay and one in ten Escape Pod stories feature gay themes, well, that's about fair.

By the way, I'm pretty sure that one in ten Escape Pod stories are not gay-themed. I'm pretty sure the number is a lot lower.

I don't like stories that demonize religion, but I listen to them, comment on their merits and flaws as best I can, and don't demand that Escape Pod stop running them. I don't like flowery fantasies with weak plots, but when Podcastle runs one, I comment on it, look to itemize the good and the bad, and appreciate it as best I can. I don't like gross-out horror with gratuitously depressing endings, but I don't threaten to stop listening whenever one of those hits the feed.

I challenge the members of this community to examine their prejudices and preferences. Why can't we be as civil to gay-themed stories as we are to others? Why do we react to them dismissively and caustically? Why do we act as though the occasional gay story somehow ruins the rest of our fun? Why do we exaggerate their frequency so much?

I now return you to your regularly scheduled commentary.

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Tang!

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Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 05:25:30 PM
Guys-  the one in ten didn't come from me-  I didn't do the count.  The editors did.  I asked THEM to do the work - and they DID.  This IS their baby and they want the best for it.  I want the best for it too. 

My opinion is that we see the lesbian thing too much.  Stephen King wrote that when he was doing a story - "When in Doubt, go for the Gross-out" and he admitted to falling back on it time and time again.  Again, I have nothing against a good mutilation now and again in a story - but do it too often, and the effects get blunted, and then it just gets routine.  Which- a on in ten constant occurrence  IS routine.  Lesbianism is DULL now.  There isn't any value in it for me.  If one in every ten was a classic "Bodice Ripper" variety  I would write the same. 

I come for escape and fantasy - not for lesbian eroticism.  There ARE podcasts for that out there.  Yes- it may very well be part of things sometimes - and that's fine.  I would just feel less bored if it was more of a one in twenty.  Maybe they could try some other sexually explicit thing for a while...masturbation, man-on-man, man-on-machine, Hell get farmyard animals and robots involved... What happened to sexual creativity?!?

Please re-read my previous post a time or two. 

Again - it's more a matter of repetition than it is content.  So I will put it back into your court.  Do the looking and find another theme that is 1 and 10 in the 'casts.  I have not noticed one.  I didn't have a issue with the gay bears - it was REFRESHING DIFFERENT.

No, one in ten stories by themselves do not make it a "centric" theme - but when put in relation with all other variety of themes that do not appear to come close to that 10%  - it DOES make one raise an eyebrow.  And it's boring me to death.





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Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 05:36:46 PM
Again - it's more a matter of repetition than it is content.  So I will put it back into your court.  Do the looking and find another theme that is 1 and 10 in the 'casts.  I have not noticed one.  I didn't have a issue with the gay bears - it was REFRESHING DIFFERENT.

No, one in ten stories by themselves do not make it a "centric" theme - but when put in relation with all other variety of themes that do not appear to come close to that 10%  - it DOES make one raise an eyebrow.  And it's boring me to death.

See, here's what bugs me. Here's what I find homophobic about your comments: what the heck was lesbian themed about The Notebook of my Favorite Skin-Trees? There was a lesbian character, and she sometimes had lesbian sex. Ok. Does that mean that every story that features a straight character who has straight sex is a "straight-themed" story? Absolutely not. We take straightness for granted, we allow it to exist in the backdrop, and we don't obsess over it.

Christmas Wedding was lesbian themed. The Bear in the Cable-Knit Sweater was gay-themed. Both stories focused on gay issues - on the challenges of being homosexual in the modern (future) world (uh... faerie).

The Notebook of my Favorite Skin-Trees contained a variety of themes: posthumanism, advertising, globalism, economics, subcultures... and all it took was some gay sex and a double-headed dildo and commenters are running for the hills and talking about how boring the preponderance of lesbianism is. That's what bugs me.

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Tang!

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Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 05:44:07 PM
The theme is not within THIS singular story - I am talking OVERALL stuff here. 

And - of course you are entitled to your own opinion- as I am entitled to mine.

Let me put it THIS way - if you did notice that eat cheese sandwiches was in 1 out of every 10 podcasts... wouldn't you at least raise an eyebrow?

When the next story came.. and the characters were going to eat.. would you eventually think, "Here come the cheese sandwiches AGAIN...  What is wrong with PB and J's?"

THAT is where I am at.

More Variety PLEASE



Tang!

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Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 06:00:27 PM

Eroticism is is just one form of graphic theme that is commonly used to grab a readers attention.  Gay, Lesbian, straight - whatever.. but at LEAST if we are going to have eroticism - lets not have most of it focus on lesbians.  Split up up more- like they did with the Bears - I was HAPPY that they did that because it did show a difference.  True - it was still gay - but at least it was gay men this time out. 

Again- I have nothing against the erotic - but most of us don't tune in for all the "juicy bits" we tune in for the rest.  They have relied on lesbian "Juicy Bits" in 10 percent of their stories.  It's not become tiring for you - but it has for me.  We gotta have some eroticism, I think is realistic in anything human - I just want a wider and more creative variety. 



Bdoomed

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Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 06:49:22 PM
And what if there are no authors submitting to Escape Pod writing creative juicy bits?  Stories are chosen for their merit not for the fact that they have creatively crafted lesbian sex.  There was a very small amount of lesbian sex in this story.  It was more just description of why she was infatuated with each woman.  And I would say that this story's lesbianism was pretty damn creative.  How many stories feature lesbian plant sex?  But, as ElectricPaladin said, this story had a great variety of other themes.

And first of all, you wouldn't notice the frequency of cheese as easily as you would homosexuality, it's not as big of a deal, but even so it would not be "wow why all the cheese sandwiches", rather "hmm authors sure are loving these cheese sandwiches these days."  (at least for me it would be).

Homosexual issues are a hot topic these days, it's only natural for our contemporary literature to reflect that to some degree.  This story didn't really feature any 'issues' per se, however it did allow for that type of relationship to exist, and tied it into how relationships are constructed within this new development in human cohabitation with plants.  Sure it could have been straight plant sex, but this was a story about women.  There are plenty of straight relationships in many of the episodes in this podcast, yet the odd homosexual one has you riled up enough to post about it and yet posting about how bored you are with it?  That doesn't make sense to me.  1 in 10 is not a lot at all.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


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Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 07:01:11 PM
I find it odd to compare lesbians to speculative elements like robots and t-rexes, because one is an actual aspect of humanity regardless of time period, setting, or events, while the other is future or past speculation that depends entirely on setting and events.  Any story that has people can have lesbians and still make sense.  But plopping a t-rex or a robot down changes everything.  It's not an apples-apples comparison.  More like comparing the color of an apple to the feeling of grief, or the density of the atmosphere to IGN's rating of Halo 3.

It doesn't compare particularly well to cheese sandwiches either, because the existence of cheese and the existence of sandwiches does depend on setting.  And I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a story where a cheese sandwich was an important detail to character or plot, while sexual preference is certainly an important part of a character, and may often be an important part of the plot--in many stories a character's sexual orientation is not spelled out in the story, but it is no less important because of that.

Anyway, regarding this story, I didn't have a problem with the lesbian sex.  It was the lack of anything else happening that got under my skin.  The scenes describing her sexual exploits were not divergent because they were lesbian sexual exploits, they were divergent because they slowed down the plot movement of finding the cure for the disease, what was presumably the central tension of the piece.  And not only that, but all of those scenes were based heavily on finding tree roots digging into flesh sexy instead of creepy and masochistic.  So I wouldn't say that this story didn't work because it had lesbian sex.  I'd say the story didn't work because it didn't use sex well, lesbian or otherwise.  

Regarding ElectricPaladin's concerns about large apparent amounts of dislike towards a story with lesbian sex:
1.  I think that might be more of an aspect of what moves people to comment.  I don't necessarily think that any larger a percentage dislike stories with a lesbian than other ones.  It's just that those who dislike it are more likely to feel moved to comment because of religious, cultural, or literary discussions about it.
2.  On the flip side of the perceived dislike of stories that involve lesbians, I don't think that people should be discouraged to voice dislike if they disliked it.  You know I'm not bashful about stating my dislike of any given story, but I try to be specific in my response, as I was with this one.  Just so that we don't push over to the opposite side, where anyone who voices dislike of a story with homosexuality is accused of homophobia.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 07:11:42 PM by Unblinking »



stePH

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Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 07:41:01 PM
Let me put it THIS way - if you did notice that eat cheese sandwiches was in 1 out of every 10 podcasts... wouldn't you at least raise an eyebrow?

When the next story came.. and the characters were going to eat.. would you eventually think, "Here come the cheese sandwiches AGAIN...  What is wrong with PB and J's?"

No.

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ElectricPaladin

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Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 08:05:40 PM
Regarding ElectricPaladin's concerns about large apparent amounts of dislike towards a story with lesbian sex:
1.  I think that might be more of an aspect of what moves people to comment.  I don't necessarily think that any larger a percentage dislike stories with a lesbian than other ones.  It's just that those who dislike it are more likely to feel moved to comment because of religious, cultural, or literary discussions about it.

Well, we may have to just agree to disagree here. The trend is one that I am very confident saying that I've noticed, but I'm comfortable conceding that this is pretty subjective. Different people have different thresholds for pattern recognition in different arenas. I see a pattern and you may not. If we both keep our eyes open, we may both find our opinions changing over time.

2.  On the flip side of the perceived dislike of stories that involve lesbians, I don't think that people should be discouraged to voice dislike if they disliked it.  You know I'm not bashful about stating my dislike of any given story, but I try to be specific in my response, as I was with this one.  Just so that we don't push over to the opposite side, where anyone who voices dislike of a story with homosexuality is accused of homophobia.

I agree 100%. The last thing I want is an environment where people can't voice dislike for a story because of its content.

That said, as I asserted above, it is a pattern I see, and as a member of this community it concerns me.

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ElectricPaladin

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Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 08:07:32 PM
Seriously, how many other stories get responses like "*YAWN*" or "Forty minutes of my life I can't have back" or rants about how terrible it is to liste to what turns someone else on. We aren't this rude to or dismissive of stories about straight sex.

Interested parties may take note that I also called Pseudopod's "Set Down This" a waste of my time, and there was like NO sex in it, lesbian or otherwise. So don't be lumping me in with Tang there... I can't recall offhand any other gay-theme stories I came down hard on.

...perhaps I need to rephrase that last sentence... nah, fuckit.  :P

I gotta admit, I've never been a fan of your commenting style. Nothing personal, it takes all kinds, etc etc etc. But I also totally agree that you are quite consistent in your taciturn and sharp dismissal of stories you don't like. You're not among the individuals I'm talking about.

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Reply #13 on: February 28, 2011, 09:09:35 PM
My opinion is that we see the lesbian thing too much.  Stephen King wrote that when he was doing a story - "When in Doubt, go for the Gross-out" and he admitted to falling back on it time and time again.  Again, I have nothing against a good mutilation now and again in a story - but do it too often, and the effects get blunted, and then it just gets routine.  Which- a on in ten constant occurrence  IS routine.  Lesbianism is DULL now.  There isn't any value in it for me.  If one in every ten was a classic "Bodice Ripper" variety  I would write the same. 

I'm surprised to see no one addressing this. The sexual themes in any given episode do nothing for me - lesbian, gay, straight, dendrophiliac - and I have never seen them as being put there specifically to 'push the envelope.' I don't think that the editors of any of Escape Artists' podcasts go out of their way to choose stories that DO push the envelope in terms of sexual escapism or exoticism. It seems to me more like you're projecting your own opinion of lesbianism onto these stories.

To my mind, what SHOULD BE the relevant part of a character being a lesbian (or a gay man, or a straight person, or a dendrophiliac, or a sado-masochist, or... you get the point) is how it influences their relationships with other people around them, the way it influences situations in their every-day lives, and the way it influences their relationship with society at large. It's not about pushing the envelope - it's not about X sexual preference or fantasy being boring or new and exciting. It's just who that character IS.

If you're listening to these stories and expecting that every detail about the protagonists is going to be some sort of scintillating, titillating look at some hidden element of society, I think you're missing something.

Formerly Ignoranus - now too big for my britches, literally and figuratively.


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Reply #14 on: February 28, 2011, 09:25:24 PM
So lesbian sex scenes in 10% of Escape Pod episdoes is reasonable since 1 out of 10 Americans might have had a sexual encounter with someone of the same gender? But shouldn't the count be what percentage of lesbian sex scenes appear out of the total number of sex scenes in Escape Pod episodes? Most Escape Pod episodes don't have sex scenes but I guesstimate that probably half of the episodes with sex scenes, especially explicit scenes, are lesbian sex scenes. Such scenes are getting to be very common on Escape Pod and I wonder if a lesbian loving heterosexual guy is responsible for the product placement.

It does seem to me that there are lots of lesbian characters in Escape Pod episodes of late. Way more than homosexual characters. Maybe more than heterosexual characters, at least heterosexual characters whose sexuality is identified and repeatedly referred to in the story.

I think you're overdoing the "put a lesbian in every story you can" thing.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 12:35:53 AM by alllie »



Talia

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Reply #15 on: February 28, 2011, 09:36:28 PM
This seems like a good time to remind everyone of The Rules regarding forum postings. Thanks.



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Reply #16 on: March 01, 2011, 01:09:53 AM
I wrote a note weeks ago about how the last time I was in the car and playing a podcast, and the writer threw in some superfluous lesbian scene - and my passenger piped up immediately how this podcast was lesbian themed and just, "in the closet" (she even made up her own name which was pretty catchy and stuck in my head).

Now- *I* had been getting more and more tired of the lesbians as time had gone on, but until I had heard somebody else GO OFF on a rant.. I thought it was just me...

Later I wrote a note to the editors voicing just how tired I was of hearing about lesbian lovers seemingly constantly.   And I asked if they would count up just how many stories HAD to have some of this girl-on-girl action in it.  Now - don't get me wrong- I am not opposed to some hot lez action on its own.. but when it's coming to me in 1 out of every 10 podcasts... .. it really starts to taint the actual stories involved.  Yup-  the editors stepped up to the plate and did the work of counting.  And they came back saying that it was about 1 in ten of the past year or so had some good womanly loving in it.  And they saw nothing wrong with it.

Now - I just must not have articulated myself well enough (not a crazy thought there) but my point was that if one out of every ten stories had a T-Rex in it, I would feel the same.  It would be the same if one in ten had a touch of Zombie, or a touch of Robot.  It reminds me of those shameless product placements in some of the old movies like "Cannonball Run". They'd pretty much stop the scene, look into the camera and hold up the product, and then go back to the scene.   

Those Product Placements had their own comedic value at least, and the movie WAS A COMEDY.  But holding up a hot lesbian couple in every 10 episodes has a cumulative effect.  And this wasn't branded as a lesbian-centric podcast.

 
"God-  not ANOTHER damned T-Rex.... Do ALL of these stories HAVE to have a T-Rex in it to get into an episode?"

Like anyone I can and do brush off parts in any story that I really don't have much interest in, but this constant theme of superfluous lesbianism has gotten to the point with me that I just shut the podcast down.  The Product Placements come just too often for me these days.  It wasn't even noticeable at first, but maybe since I am a long time listener than it really IS the cumulative effect hitting me hard.

-SNIP-

Tang!, the letter you mentioned was actually to the editors of PodCastle, which is me (or, at least, half me, and half Anarkey). Just to be clear, EP and PC are under the same banner of EA, and Mur's my friend, but all the EA podcasts are different ships, and don't consult each other regarding story selection.

Yes, I counted the stories when you wrote into us. It was actually less than 1 of 10 - coming in at eight percent. What I didn't explicity state (because I thought it was rather obvious) that while 8% of our stories featured lesbians (note: not necesarilly lesbians having sex), it meant that the rest of our stories - 92% - featured either straight or gay characters. (Unfortunately - at PodCastle, we only ran two stories that feature gay characters in the past year.)

So my question is: at what point would you feel comfortable listening to stories featuring lesbian characters? 5%? 3%? 1%? Less than 1%?

Additionally, I'm also disturbed that you compare stories featuring lesbians to stories featuring zombies, or stories that feature T-rexes. I don't think that you mean to equate lesbians to monsters (or dinosaurs), but regardless: it's very, very bad taste. Lesbians, like you, are people, not a genre.

I do appreciate that you like the 92% of the stories, and that you even dug the gay bears, and I do hope you continue to listen to our podcasts. But while I haven't yet had the oppurtunity to listen to this particular story yet, I can tell you that at PodCastle we'll continue to run stories with lesbian protagonists - especially when they're as strong as the one you initially complained about. And I have no doubt Mur will continue to do the same at EP.

I'm on my way out the door, otherwise I'd split this off. Hopefully, eytanz or another mod will be around soon to take care of it, and we can get back to talking about the story in question, and continue this discussion elsewhere if necessary.


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Reply #17 on: March 01, 2011, 01:48:21 AM
Yes, I counted the stories when you wrote into us. It was actually less than 1 of 10 - coming in at eight percent. What I didn't explicity state (because I thought it was rather obvious) that while 8% of our stories featured lesbians (note: not necesarilly lesbians having sex), it meant that the rest of our stories - 92% - featured either straight or gay characters. (Unfortunately - at PodCastle, we only ran two stories that feature gay characters in the past year.)

During the same time period, 6% of our stories were by some guy named Tim Pratt, 8% of our stories were chosen by Ann Leckie,  8% of our stories were narrated by Wilson Fowlie, 14% of our stories prominently featured dreams, and 6% of our stories were about goats (though not all the goats were literal goats, some were of people with goat parts).

I eagerly await complaint letters about our goat-centric podcast.

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Reply #18 on: March 01, 2011, 03:03:38 AM
I eagerly await complaint letters about our goat-centric podcast.

Yes but can't they be more creatively placed goats?

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


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Reply #19 on: March 01, 2011, 03:30:34 AM
I'm busy putting the finishing touches on Soundproof so I don't really have time to fully respond on behalf of Escape Pod, but if I did, it would look very much like DKT's response. We buy stories because they're good, not because of the sexual orientation of the characters. I don't have time to run the stats on how many GLBT characters we've had in the last few dozen episodes, but I'm sure that whatever number it is is a fine number, and not one I would look to change, no matter how high it is. The deciding factor is the quality of the story, not if the main character is trying to get into pants or skirts.

We should probably run more goat stories though.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 03:32:21 AM by Heradel »

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Reply #20 on: March 01, 2011, 04:11:55 AM
Remember, everyone: Lesbians are a spec-fic element equivalent to tyrannosauruses or robots, and their mere existence is weird and unusual and worthy of reacting with shock.  It's also very suspicious when they make up a tiny visible percentage of the characters in a body of work, since in nature all lesbians are invisible, and if you catch a lesbian with a silver lasso, she will whisper to you the secret location of her pot of lesbian gold.

Do not attempt to catch a gay man with a silver lasso. 

If you spot a lesbian in a story, be sure to ring the Lesbian Alarm to alert everyone to this development.  Lesbians bear close watching, as they are wont to evaporate and turn into raspberry asbestos at the slightest mention of the classic 2005 movie, Stealth.



NoraReed

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Reply #21 on: March 01, 2011, 04:34:08 AM
Just another heterosexual story.

Last time I was driving in a car and listening to Escape Pod my passenger noted that Escape Pod is heterosexual and just "in the closet" about it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm totally okay with having some hot straight action on it's own, but it seems absurd how many podcasts have boy-on-girl action in them. I can't believe the editors think that there's nothing wrong with the fact that so many Escape Pod stories are straight.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not heterophobic, but if one in ten stories had a family, food or clothes in them, I'd feel the same. I feel like Escape Pod is actually putting in "product placement" for heterosexuality because it is impossible for me to see a story with heterosexual characters without their heterosexuality overriding every other element of their characterization and the rest of the story. For example, I found the relationship between Marie and her husband in "Advertising At The End of the World" so overwhelming that I was unable to pay attention to the themes of consumerism, loss, loneliness and obsolete technology.

Having heterosexuality so common in a podcast that ISN'T STRAIGHT-THEMED really bothers me. Do all these stories HAVE to have straight people in them?

Of course I can ignore pieces of the story that I don't care about, but I feel like the constant addition of heterosexual elements bother me so much that I might have to stop listening. I know I'll miss good stories by doing this, but I just can't stand listening to more mindless heterosexual drivel.



Mur Lafferty

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Reply #22 on: March 01, 2011, 04:40:07 AM
1) I will check slush for goat stories.  

2) Also, what DKT said was right. We are sister podcasts, Escape Pod, Pseudopod, and Podcastle, but we are individually run and if you have issues, please address the editor of each podcast and do not blame (or praise) one of us for the others' actions.  

3) I recently listened to book 4 of the Dexter series. I enjoy the Dexter books like I like corn chips. They do me no good but they make passing the time while traveling easier. But one thing that really hit me about book 4 was the antagonist was gay.

Why did it hit me? It was not because he was gay. It was because the story made no big deal out of it other than the character was "mad because [Dexter] killed his boyfriend." The cops hunting this guy did not say "that sick fag" or "that homo killer." He was a gay man. In a story. He wasn't walking around getting GAY all over the walls and floors, like the GAYS tend to do. He had a role to play. His sexuality was not an issue, just who he was. They were more concerned with the fact that he was, you know, killing people, than who he slept with.

When we're writing the Other (a common term for someone differently -abled -gendered -sexuality -racial than the author,) we tend to write people who are Gay or Black or A Woman In A Man's World. And that is their character. When you actually have someone who is a carpenter, and a libertarian, and a sardonic asshole, and homosexual, people wonder when the GAY will get all over everything, because suddenly it is a GAY story. Not a carpenter's story, or a political story, or a satire.

So if 10% gay is bad, is 10% female protagonist bad? 10% Jewish? 10% Asian? 10% non-American? If you're counting the straight vs. gay, are you also counting the white vs non-white? The WASP vs non-Christian? The male protag vs female? Is the default protag white, male, straight, Christian, American?

If we have stories about someone who is not like you, it's going to stand out as NOT LIKE YOU. Of course I notice when a protag is not a white, female, straight, American. And believe it or not, that's OK, because the story is likely to focus on someone who IS like someone else who has been desperate to find SF that concerns people JUST LIKE THEM. For what it's worth, many SF stories are about aliens...who by definition are not like any of us. And yet no one complains about that.

Yes, I will continue to buy stories with gays and lesbians in them. If the stories are well-written SF, I don't care of the protag is gay, a gay T-rex, a gay T-rex who's fucking a goat, or a gay T-rex Jewish republican Eskimo who is fucking a goat. I want good SF. I don't actually go through the percentages and think, "oh, no, sorry, we already hit our listener-approved 8% TEH GAY stories this month. I must reject your story about singularities and soup cans, even though it's brilliant and worthy of the Hugo and Nebula and whatever awards TEH GAY community gives out. This story simply has too many of TEH GAY in it."

If you do not enjoy the free story, turn it off. Delete it. No one will think any less of you.

And if you still feel as if you are not getting your money's worth from this free podcast, please email me, tell me exactly how much you donated to support the podcast, and I will refund all of your money.



Mur Lafferty

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Reply #23 on: March 01, 2011, 04:47:07 AM
I wonder if Charlie Stross or Cory Doctorow has any stories about gay characters, singularities, and soup cans.



NoraReed

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Reply #24 on: March 01, 2011, 04:56:56 AM
I wonder if Charlie Stross or Cory Doctorow has any stories about gay characters, singularities, and soup cans.

I want this story. I want it to be co-written by Benjamin Rosenbaum and Joey Comeau and I want Norm to narrate it.



Bdoomed

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Reply #25 on: March 01, 2011, 05:40:22 AM
hijacked:

Just another story with the number 23.

Last time I was driving in a car and listening to Escape Pod my passenger noted that Escape Pod had the number 23 in another story.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm totally okay with the occasional number 23, but it seems absurd how many podcasts have twenty plus three action in them. I can't believe the editors think that there's nothing wrong with the fact that so many Escape Pod stories contain the number 23.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not numerophobic, but if one in twenty-three stories had 2, 3 or 32 in them, I'd feel the same. I feel like Escape Pod is actually putting in "product placement" for the number 23 because it is impossible for me to see a story with 23 characters without their count overriding every other element of their characterization and the rest of the story. For example, I found the numbers in "N+1, N-1" so overwhelming that I was unable to pay attention to the themes of time travel and such.

Having the number 23 so common in a podcast that ISN'T MATHEMATICAL really bothers me. Do all these stories HAVE to have the number 23 in them?

Of course I can ignore pieces of the story that I don't care about, but I feel like the constant addition of the number 23 bothers me so much that I might have to stop listening. I know I'll miss good stories by doing this, but I just can't stand listening to more mindless mathematical drivel.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


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Reply #26 on: March 01, 2011, 05:57:49 AM
I wonder if Charlie Stross or Cory Doctorow has any stories about gay characters, singularities, and soup cans.

This post brought to mind the phrase 'gay singularity' and I'm sort of frightened to pursue that idea any further, to be honest...

hijacked:

Just another story with the number 23.

Last time I was driving in a car and listening to Escape Pod my passenger noted that Escape Pod had the number 23 in another story.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm totally okay with the occasional number 23, but it seems absurd how many podcasts have twenty plus three action in them. I can't believe the editors think that there's nothing wrong with the fact that so many Escape Pod stories contain the number 23.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not numerophobic, but if one in twenty-three stories had 2, 3 or 32 in them, I'd feel the same. I feel like Escape Pod is actually putting in "product placement" for the number 23 because it is impossible for me to see a story with 23 characters without their count overriding every other element of their characterization and the rest of the story. For example, I found the numbers in "N+1, N-1" so overwhelming that I was unable to pay attention to the themes of time travel and such.

Having the number 23 so common in a podcast that ISN'T MATHEMATICAL really bothers me. Do all these stories HAVE to have the number 23 in them?

Of course I can ignore pieces of the story that I don't care about, but I feel like the constant addition of the number 23 bothers me so much that I might have to stop listening. I know I'll miss good stories by doing this, but I just can't stand listening to more mindless mathematical drivel.

All I can say about this post is "Hail Eris."

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DKT

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Reply #27 on: March 01, 2011, 06:14:00 AM
2.  On the flip side of the perceived dislike of stories that involve lesbians, I don't think that people should be discouraged to voice dislike if they disliked it.  You know I'm not bashful about stating my dislike of any given story, but I try to be specific in my response, as I was with this one.  Just so that we don't push over to the opposite side, where anyone who voices dislike of a story with homosexuality is accused of homophobia.


Unblinking, I appreciate your post, but I'm going to disagree with you on #2.

We have a rule on this forum: Be Civil and Respectful. The original post in this topic wasn't civil or respectful, especially to anyone in our forum who is not straight.

If people want to complain about their being too many gay or lesbian characters in EA, I strongly suggest they email the appropriate editor/podcast, because I do not want to see it here. It's rude, and whether or not the Tang! meant it to be, it's also hateful. See norareed's Too Much Heterosexuality post for a different perspective, or substitute pretty much any minority for "lesbian". IMO, posts like this are not welcome. If you want to email me about it, or Mur, or PP, I encourage people to do so.

It's fine to dislike a story and explain why you disliked it. As you (Unblinking) know, we encourage people to let us know what they thought of the story, regardless of whether they liked it or not.

It's not okay to be rude/hateful to a group of people.


iamafish

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Reply #28 on: March 01, 2011, 06:19:26 AM
This isn't a criticism, just as observation. I actually find it quite interesting that escape artists products in general (so across all the podcasts), and actually pretty much all media, that contains homosexuality in some way, often feels the need to draw attention to the fact that one of the characters is a homosexual.  I'd like more fiction to take the approach, outlined by Mur above, that sexuality just is. We don't need to draw attention to it and say 'oh by the way guy, this person is GAY!'. Short story anthologies about lesbian steampunk* or other such explicitly 'different' topics regarding humanity (sexuality, gender, race etc) always fill me with slight unease. It's not that i object to homosexuality or anything like that; i don't really care whether someone is gay or straight, black or white, male or female, I just find it odd that we feel the need to draw attention to is. Why does it matter that your steampunk is lesbian or straight or gay or anything else? Why do we need to make the distinction. When we stop treating people who are different from us as different from us, these differences will stop being an issue.

Of course, this is not to say that stories in which people wrestle with their sexuality, race, gender, etc are not relevant. But unless it's a theme which is deal with explicitly, I don't see why we need to draw attention to it. We certainly don't need to set stories which contain minority groups in their own separate anthology.

*Disclaimer: this is not an attack on that specific anthology, it's just an example i pulled from the top of my head.


Bdoomed

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Reply #29 on: March 01, 2011, 06:23:45 AM
The attention is drawn to it because it is something that demands attention these days.  Literature like that puts it up and invites us to accept it, and invites us to question why it had to be noticed.  It has to be noticed because it shouldn't have to be noticed, if you get what I mean.  You are totally right in wanting something where sexuality just is, but that mindset does not yet exist fully in our society.  Attention had to be brought to women working as equals to men before it just was so.  Same thing with civil rights.  Attention has to be brought to it because it shouldn't have to demand attention.  It SHOULD just be, but it isn't and that is what works like that try to do.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


ElectricPaladin

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Reply #30 on: March 01, 2011, 06:35:58 AM
The attention is drawn to it because it is something that demands attention these days.  Literature like that puts it up and invites us to accept it, and invites us to question why it had to be noticed.  It has to be noticed because it shouldn't have to be noticed, if you get what I mean.  You are totally right in wanting something where sexuality just is, but that mindset does not yet exist fully in our society.  Attention had to be brought to women working as equals to men before it just was so.  Same thing with civil rights.  Attention has to be brought to it because it shouldn't have to demand attention.  It SHOULD just be, but it isn't and that is what works like that try to do.

I'd add that there is a lot of work that mentions sexuality without focusing on it. I was just having a conversation with my wife about how in one of Tamora Pierce's recent fantasy series, a character discovers that she is a lesbian as part of her general storyline of growth and self-discovery, but very little fanfare is made of the development. The variety is there, if you look for it.

That said, we do live in a society where homosexuals put up with, frankly, a lot of shit. Until that changes, we're going to see a lot of art that challenges the status quo.

And, also frankly, we will always see art that focuses on all parts of life. There's art that focuses on the joys and challenges of parenthood, growing older, dealing with death, the wonder and terror of childhood, travel, food, being a lost twentysomething, artistic awakenings, increased social consciousness, class issues, grappling with history, and, for that matter, entirely straight sexual awakening. Even in a perfect world where homosexuals are offered all the civil rights heterosexuals take for granted, there will be room for art that embodies the experience of homosexual sexuality. Just like there's room for art that embodies the experience of heterosexual sexuality in the world we live in now.

As far as separate anthologies go... I agree and I disagree. On the one hand, you're right. It'll be nice when stories about homosexuality appear without comment all over the place. On the other hand, it's also really convenient to be able to seek out anthologies about what you find interesting. When I was a straight adolescent growing up in Brooklyn, I wouldn't have sneezed at an anthology of fantastic fiction role models for young boys, full of people like me doing heroic things. I mean, I didn't have a hard time finding that sort of thing as it was, but there wouldn't have been anything wrong with such a thing existing. Isn't it even better for such things to exist for people who would have a harder time finding heroes like themselves in fiction?

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NoraReed

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Reply #31 on: March 01, 2011, 07:05:41 AM
I actually find it quite interesting that escape artists products in general (so across all the podcasts), and actually pretty much all media, that contains homosexuality in some way, often feels the need to draw attention to the fact that one of the characters is a homosexual.

They frequently don't. You're just noticing it more because we live in a heteronormative society and homosexuality stands out as a result. Skin Trees, for example, didn't really draw attention to the lesbian-ness at all. It drew attention to sensuality that happened to be queer, the queerness is incidental to the sensuality.

I'm constantly hearing this about gayness and it's really a short step from "I wish these stories would just have gay characters without FOCUSING SO MUCH on how they're gay" to "I'm fine with gays as long as they don't SHOVE IT IN MY FACE."

Quote
Why does it matter that your steampunk is lesbian or straight or gay or anything else?

LGBT/Queer people live in a heteronormative society-- that is, one in which heterosexuality is implied as default. This can get really stressful. There's the constant battle about who you come out to, because even if you're "out" you are still coming out of the closet to new people as a constant process and you have to deal with those reactions on a daily basis. Harassment is a constant issue, especially if you aren't gender-conforming in your appearance. Getting hate crimed is a genuine worry.

So sometimes LGBT/Queer people seek out homonormative spaces-- that is, spaces where homosexuality is expected and normal. You go there and you're not a minority anymore, you don't have to worry about coming out, and the other people have gone through the some of same shit as you. There's a shared culture that forms around that and it feels safer to be there.

I know people who grew up in the desert with a wide open sky who moved to places where they're walled in by buildings and trees all the time. They say when they come back to the desert, where the sky is huge and the horizon is low, they feel like they can breathe more easily. It's like a weight is lifted off their shoulders and they didn't even know it was there. I'm sure you've felt like this sometime-- coming to your hometown after being away at school, or settling into your house after a difficult trip, or finding a group of people to talk to who get you in a way most people don't. A part of you has come home, and you relax parts of you that you didn't even know were tense.

For a lot of people, it's the same thing with these homonormative spaces. You're safe in a Pride parade, in a gay club, in a Gay/Straight alliance in a way that you aren't in the mainstream community. When you get into those places it's like a weight was lifted from your shoulders, because you're among people who get it.

LGBT/Queer anthologies are just another homonormative space like that. You spend all of your time reading books about straight people, stories about straight people, participating in communities run by straight people. The communities that get created around stuff like LGBT/Queer sci-fi anthologies are ones that are often easier to deal with because there's a shared cultural experience that people understand.

Plus, the LGBT/Queer communities that the lesbian steampunk anthology ends up being part of never have straight people who start threads complaining about how they got some queer in their prose every time the topic of non-hetero sexuality or romance comes up.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 07:15:59 AM by NoraReed »



iamafish

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Reply #32 on: March 01, 2011, 07:44:30 AM
The attention is drawn to it because it is something that demands attention these days.  Literature like that puts it up and invites us to accept it, and invites us to question why it had to be noticed.  It has to be noticed because it shouldn't have to be noticed, if you get what I mean.  You are totally right in wanting something where sexuality just is, but that mindset does not yet exist fully in our society.  Attention had to be brought to women working as equals to men before it just was so.  Same thing with civil rights.  Attention has to be brought to it because it shouldn't have to demand attention.  It SHOULD just be, but it isn't and that is what works like that try to do.

I guess I wish we were at that point already. Shame people are still stupid, ignorant and prejudice.

But, as i said, I've nothing wrong with stories that explore sexuality, I just get annoyed when stories/anthologies/posts on furms make a big deal out of sexuality without exploring it or really saying anything new or interesting


blueeyeddevil

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Reply #33 on: March 01, 2011, 01:25:29 PM
I look at this long set of posts full of passionate and long-written posts and think "you know what this needs? My opinion!"

Hmm, well.

I think that, were all of humanity to forget its prejudices and enter the age of aquarius, we still would be just a little woogy about sex. There are reasons for this which are not merely normative and cultural, but physiological and neurochemical.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is how things should be, nor that this idea precludes us from endeavoring to create a better understanding and acceptance of sexuality.
I think what we are really discussing here is an equally large, and probably nearly as old question: what is acceptable for Art to depict?
Or, to be slightly less pretentious, what really works in writing?
I've commented on stories involving sex before, saying a variation on what's already been said here; i.e. I'm not offended, but the actual description is neither titillating to me, nor particularly useful for the furtherance of the plot.
Does sexual (specific, graphic) content really work in stories that are not themselves specifically at their core about sex?
I'd like to simply let the question lie, yet I suppose I should be fair and risk my own neck:
Yes and no. (after thinking a little bit I came up with Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series, Tad Williams' Green Angel Tower series, the last scene of "Leaving Las Vegas," "Tipping the Velvet", and "Romeo and Juliet," as the only stories I could think of where specific sexual acts were important, and to be honest some of these are really only where sexual acts are strongly implied .)
By and large, in my opinion, the presence of graphic sexuality usually ends up being wasted space in the story. I’ve rarely encountered a story where the choice to explicitly demonstrate the intimate parts of a relationship forged a greater verisimilitude than other more commonplace description.

Edit:added a missing line in paranthetical story list
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:02:29 PM by blueeyeddevil »



Unblinking

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Reply #34 on: March 01, 2011, 02:45:13 PM
2.  On the flip side of the perceived dislike of stories that involve lesbians, I don't think that people should be discouraged to voice dislike if they disliked it.  You know I'm not bashful about stating my dislike of any given story, but I try to be specific in my response, as I was with this one.  Just so that we don't push over to the opposite side, where anyone who voices dislike of a story with homosexuality is accused of homophobia.


Unblinking, I appreciate your post, but I'm going to disagree with you on #2.

We have a rule on this forum: Be Civil and Respectful. The original post in this topic wasn't civil or respectful, especially to anyone in our forum who is not straight.

If people want to complain about their being too many gay or lesbian characters in EA, I strongly suggest they email the appropriate editor/podcast, because I do not want to see it here. It's rude, and whether or not the Tang! meant it to be, it's also hateful. See norareed's Too Much Heterosexuality post for a different perspective, or substitute pretty much any minority for "lesbian". IMO, posts like this are not welcome. If you want to email me about it, or Mur, or PP, I encourage people to do so.

It's fine to dislike a story and explain why you disliked it. As you (Unblinking) know, we encourage people to let us know what they thought of the story, regardless of whether they liked it or not.

It's not okay to be rude/hateful to a group of people.

I tried to choose my words carefully, but apparently I wasn't careful enough.  I am not saying that we should be rude or hateful to any group of people.  I wasn't supporting the argument that EP has too many stories with lesbians in them.  

What I was responding to was that it seemed that ElectricPaladin might be overgeneralizing in his response to Tang! when he said that stories with lesbians got apparent lower approval ratings in the forums than stories without lesbians.  That certainly might be true, but interpreted one way that might imply that "if a story has a lesbian in it, then we should not give negative comments about it" which, to me, would merely be another permutation of prejudice.  As I said before I just don't want us to swing in the OTHER direction where someone feels uncomfortable criticizing the plot for being slow or the journal entries for being digressive simply BECAUSE there happened to be a lesbian.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:48:08 PM by Unblinking »



Unblinking

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Reply #35 on: March 01, 2011, 02:54:45 PM
Yes, I counted the stories when you wrote into us. It was actually less than 1 of 10 - coming in at eight percent. What I didn't explicity state (because I thought it was rather obvious) that while 8% of our stories featured lesbians (note: not necesarilly lesbians having sex), it meant that the rest of our stories - 92% - featured either straight or gay characters. (Unfortunately - at PodCastle, we only ran two stories that feature gay characters in the past year.)

During the same time period, 6% of our stories were by some guy named Tim Pratt, 8% of our stories were chosen by Ann Leckie,  8% of our stories were narrated by Wilson Fowlie, 14% of our stories prominently featured dreams, and 6% of our stories were about goats (though not all the goats were literal goats, some were of people with goat parts).

I eagerly await complaint letters about our goat-centric podcast.

So, it's inevitable for Ann Leckie to choose a story about goats having lesbian sex dreams, written by Tim Pratt, narrated by Wilson Fowlie?  I, for one, look forward to hearing it.



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Reply #36 on: March 01, 2011, 03:02:21 PM
Yes, I counted the stories when you wrote into us. It was actually less than 1 of 10 - coming in at eight percent. What I didn't explicity state (because I thought it was rather obvious) that while 8% of our stories featured lesbians (note: not necesarilly lesbians having sex), it meant that the rest of our stories - 92% - featured either straight or gay characters. (Unfortunately - at PodCastle, we only ran two stories that feature gay characters in the past year.)

During the same time period, 6% of our stories were by some guy named Tim Pratt, 8% of our stories were chosen by Ann Leckie,  8% of our stories were narrated by Wilson Fowlie, 14% of our stories prominently featured dreams, and 6% of our stories were about goats (though not all the goats were literal goats, some were of people with goat parts).

I eagerly await complaint letters about our goat-centric podcast.

So, it's inevitable for Ann Leckie to choose a story about goats having lesbian sex dreams, written by Tim Pratt, narrated by Wilson Fowlie?  I, for one, look forward to hearing it.

That does sound pretty awesome.

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Swamp

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Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 04:27:34 PM
What I was responding to was that it seemed that ElectricPaladin might be overgeneralizing in his response to Tang! when he said that stories with lesbians got apparent lower approval ratings in the forums than stories without lesbians.  That certainly might be true, but interpreted one way that might imply that "if a story has a lesbian in it, then we should not give negative comments about it" which, to me, would merely be another permutation of prejudice.  As I said before I just don't want us to swing in the OTHER direction where someone feels uncomfortable criticizing the plot for being slow or the journal entries for being digressive simply BECAUSE there happened to be a lesbian.

I agree with this.  Feeling that you can't say something bad about a story just because it has a lesbian in it and you might offend lesbians if you don't like the story is not where this should be headed.  Now I typically, as a rule, don't comment on stories that I don't like, but I wouldn't want anyone to feel like they couldn't, just because there was a lesbian in it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 04:30:29 PM by Swamp »

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DKT

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Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 05:23:47 PM
I tried to choose my words carefully, but apparently I wasn't careful enough.  I am not saying that we should be rude or hateful to any group of people.  I wasn't supporting the argument that EP has too many stories with lesbians in them.  

What I was responding to was that it seemed that ElectricPaladin might be overgeneralizing in his response to Tang! when he said that stories with lesbians got apparent lower approval ratings in the forums than stories without lesbians.  That certainly might be true, but interpreted one way that might imply that "if a story has a lesbian in it, then we should not give negative comments about it" which, to me, would merely be another permutation of prejudice.  As I said before I just don't want us to swing in the OTHER direction where someone feels uncomfortable criticizing the plot for being slow or the journal entries for being digressive simply BECAUSE there happened to be a lesbian.


Thank you for the clarification, Unblinking. Perhaps I didn't read carefully enough, or choose my own words carefully enough. FWIW, I didn't read it as you encouraging rude or hateful behavior.

I want to make sure I'm being clear as well:

We appreciate feedback on all the stories.

We do not appreciate people commenting in story threads to complain specifically about there being lesbians in a story. In some story threads in the past, I've seen people complain that there wasn't a reason for a character to be lesbian/gay - and honestly, I don't appreciate that either (People don't complain about there being no good reason for a character to be straight in a story), but there hasn't been a full-on rant like Tang!s for a long time.

So story discussion? Yes, please  :D

Complaints about a people group being icky? No. Just don't.

Instead, I'd urge anyone considering ranting to examine why they think this is a valid complaint, and after that - if they really need to - send the appropriate editor an email, as Tang! initially did.


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Reply #39 on: March 01, 2011, 06:36:16 PM
As the EP forum moderator, I'd like to thank the rest of the moderators and the editors who stepped, as this whole discussion began while I was away.

At this point, I think what was worth saying on the topic of lesbians and EP's editorial policy has been said (plus quite a few things not worth saying have been said as well). I am going to lock this topic, not because I want to shut up any individual but mostly because I know from my own experience how difficult it is sometimes to resist the urge to post on a topic even when there's nothing to add to it (which I myself have been fighting with for a lot of this afternoon - this post saw about fifteen revisions). If anyone feels like they have something of value to add here, please PM me and I will consider re-opening the thread.