Author Topic: EP297: Amaryllis  (Read 27721 times)

eytanz

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on: June 17, 2011, 01:19:12 AM
EP297: Amaryllis

By Carrie Vaughn
Read by Gabrielle De Cuir

Originally appeared in Lightspeed

Nominated for the Hugo Award for Short Story, 2011
---

I never knew my mother, and I never understood why she did what she did. I ought to be grateful that she was crazy enough to cut out her implant so she could get pregnant. But it also meant she was crazy enough to hide the pregnancy until termination wasn’t an option, knowing the whole time that she’d never get to keep the baby. That she’d lose everything. That her household would lose everything because of her.

I never understood how she couldn’t care. I wondered what her family thought when they learned what she’d done, when their committee split up the household, scattered them—broke them, because of her.

Did she think I was worth it?


Rated appropriate for all young teens and up for reproductive concerns.


Listen to this week’s Escape Pod!



statisticus

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Reply #1 on: June 18, 2011, 02:02:51 AM
This got a Hugo nomination?

I'm sorry, but this story left me flat.  The story telling works well enough I suppose, and we get a moderate amount of character development of the main character and her household as they gather up the courage to make a stand for their rights.  But - there is almost nothing that makes this science fiction.  The story certainly isn't.  A woman is being bullied because of a grudge against her mother; her household encourage her to take a stand against the bully.  The setting (people in a post crash world who must live within strict quotas) is technically SF, but this isn't explored in detail doesn't really impact on the story.  The story could just as easily be set in a variety of historical settings - a group of people undergoing wartime rationing, or a living through the great depression, or working a collective farm in the soviet era - and would otherwise be identical.

I am a Statistician.  One false move and you're a Statistic.


ElectricPaladin

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Reply #2 on: June 18, 2011, 05:04:22 AM
This story wasn't what I was in the mood for, but it gradually grew on me until - by the end - I can honestly say that I loved it. It was definitely a slower, more personal kind of sci-fi than the mean, but that doesn't mean it wasn't incredibly powerful and poignant on its own terms. The speculative fiction elements were well-used to create a neat setting, which the characters and their flaws and passions all bounced around in wonderfully.

The reading was more than adequate, but I kind of wish Mur had read it. She would have really knocked this one out of the park and into the park next door (where Wilson Fowlie would have eaten or something).

There I go again, posting while sleep deprived :P.

Anyway, I really loved this story. It was heartwarming and inspiring, with strong speculative elements, and focused on an interesting pack of characters. Five zeppelins out of five.

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Dem

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Reply #3 on: June 19, 2011, 12:56:36 PM
I'm afraid I'm with statisticus on this one. It was essentially a story about a fishing community that had some unreasonable practices associated with rule breaking, and an unscrupulous arbiter who was a bully. I think that, with more attention to internal dialogue and the tensions in the various relationships, this could have been a literary piece. But as it is, there is very little to distinguish it as either SF or a tale about the human condition.  :'(

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


Gamercow

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Reply #4 on: June 19, 2011, 03:41:53 PM
I'm sure this is a good story, but a lot of it was lost on me because I have no drive to be a parent, so there was zero tug on my heart strings for Nina or her desires.  I liked the MC well enough, who was also the only character with any kind of depth, and I liked the setting, but story itself left me flat somewhat.  it was like a commuter train ride.  Comfortable, relaxing, some good scenery on the way, but pretty uneventful.  I knew they were going to defeat the evil scalemaster, and I knew they were going to get their baby license, and they did it in a pretty straightforward manner.  The insight into the MC's mind was interesting, but I expected more from a Hugo nominee. 

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Reply #5 on: June 19, 2011, 10:58:50 PM
"I never knew my mother, and I never understood why she did what she did."

And I never knew I had such a capacity for critical spleen until EP started specialising in female authors angsting over mom.

I must have deleted at least ten comments before I ended up with this happy, fluffy positive one. I mean FFS, would it kill you people to run something with robots or spaceships or genetically engineered soldiers or something (anything) of interest to those of us who aren't emo girls?

This, for example:

http://transmissionsfrombeyond.com/2011/03/transmission37/

I almost find myself missing the old 50's trope of square-chinned heterosexual white men saving the universe for American Civilization. At least those fuckers had fun.



kibitzer

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Reply #6 on: June 20, 2011, 03:16:19 AM
Loved this one. Beautiful. Such a personal look at a well-realised community in a resource-poor world. And Gabrielle's reading fitted perfectly; a very nice performance.

Again I have to ask: what's wrong with a good story, well told, regardless of genre?

Major kudos to Lightspeed Magazine for volunteering such an excellent product.


SanguineV

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Reply #7 on: June 20, 2011, 12:04:38 PM
...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 01:45:49 AM by SanguineV »



eytanz

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Reply #8 on: June 20, 2011, 12:20:38 PM
I haven't heard the story yet, so I can't comment on whether I think it's appropriate for Escape Pod. But please note that the normal genre rules are suspended for Hugo nominees - Escape Pod will run all Hugo Nominees that it can get the rights for, regardless of whether the editors feel they are SF, fantasy, or speculative at all (though also note that Hugo nominees are selected by the public so at least a large amount of voters did think it's speculative).



Rain

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Reply #9 on: June 20, 2011, 12:44:55 PM
I thought the overall world sounded interesting, being static and happy about it goes against everything that is humanity today, so i would have loved to get some more info about that.  As it is i didnt care for the story here, there wasnt anything i found particularly exciting.



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 05:50:37 PM
I kind of wish Mur had read it. She would have really knocked this one out of the park and into the park next door (where Wilson Fowlie would have eaten or something).

 ??

There I go again, posting while sleep deprived :P.

Oh. Okay. :)

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Andy C

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Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 05:56:28 PM
This was an excellent story, real quality. it had rhythm and grace, it had believable characters, intriguing background and the way it was crafted shows what a good story teller Carrie Vaughn is. But it is a story that you either 'get' or you don't. I think the fact that it has received mixed reviews here is more to do with its subject than the quality of the writing. It comes back to this perennial issue of defining the boundaries of Sci fi.

I've got a bit of sympathy for Balu, it does seem like the balance (and it is a question of balance) in the broad definition of sci-fi has tilted against the star ships / galaxy / aliens / future tech strand of sci fi; although I'm guessing the Escape Pod team might answer by saying that they judge the work that comes their way on its merit, if they get some excellent star ship stuff, they'll use it.

Kibitzer makes an interesting point:

"Again I have to ask: what's wrong with a good story, well told, regardless of genre?"

Well, sure but this is a genre based podcast....

So, this is a quality story, but it's not going to be everyone's idea of sci-fi. But I guess if you think it's a bit too much of an emo trip then don't just get angry, get even -  write something that you would like to listen to and send it in (after August 1st)

Andy C




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Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 07:49:52 PM
I read this in Lightspeed, so I skipped the story part of the show this week. It was a while ago, and I remember enjoying the story. I like stories about boats (ahem).

The concept of having to be completely self-sufficient is difficult to write, at least for me. I've got two stories going right now that are in that vein -- one is another boat story; the other is more an "island princess" tale -- and it's difficult to shoehorn in all the details when I also have to have plot. So, kudos for that.

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Gamercow

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Reply #13 on: June 20, 2011, 08:36:38 PM
I mean FFS, would it kill you people to run something with robots or spaceships or genetically engineered soldiers or something (anything) of interest to those of us who aren't emo girls?

You mean, like last week?  The one with the robots, and the spaceships?  The robots on the spaceships?  Or the week before that, with the aliens, and the soldiers, and the revolution?  Or how about 294, with the cyberpunk cranium implants, post-singularity humans, and genetically engineered toad-men? Or the one before that, with the 2 black holes, time manipulation, and mini-wookie aliens?

Yup.  Nothing but "emo girl" stories here.

The cow says "Mooooooooo"


eytanz

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Reply #14 on: June 20, 2011, 09:01:43 PM
Ok, I think I should have made this clearer before, so here goes:

1. This story was on Escape Pod because it is a Hugo nominee. It's genre was not particularly relevant to that decision.
2. More generally, on weeks where Escape Pod is running its regular selection of stories rather than Hugo noms, it is acceptable (though not particularly encouraged) to discuss the genre merits of a particular story in its thread. However, it is *not* appropriate to discuss the overall editorial choices of Escape Pod in an episode's thread. That includes both positive and negative comments.
3. Which isn't to say that the editorial direction cannot be discussed. It can. But only in the "About Escape Pod" section of the forums, not in episode threads.

I'm not going to issue a warning or anything like that, just a polite request. Please, discuss this story on its own merits. If you have an issue or a comment to make about Escape Pod as a whole, start a thread for it (or use an existing one - here's an appropriate one from relatively recently). I'd appreciate it, the rest of the community will appreciate it.



kibitzer

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Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 03:05:24 AM
2. More generally, on weeks where Escape Pod is running its regular selection of stories rather than Hugo noms...

OM NOM NOM NOM.

Sorry.

Couldn't resist. :-)


blueeyeddevil

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Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 11:59:32 AM
Perhaps my opinion of this story suffers for the tale's Hugo nomination, but...that's it?

To steal an old but good line, when it comes to the plot of this story; there's no THERE there.

Spoiler warning:
The main action of this story, what isn't taken up in historical exposition and world detail, is about a big ol' meanie who runs the scales at the docks who keeps being a big ol' meanie to the story's protagonist. When this first happens, I think 'why aren't they calling for an audit of the scales? Apparently there's some reason.'
How is the story resolved? They call for an audit of the scales...Which, as it turns out, is very easy.
How is this protagonist supposed to be a tough-as-nails successful captain on the high seas of the post-apocalypse?

This isn't just a not worthy of a Hugo nom, this is a poorly constructed story. What were people thinking? I honestly don't get it.



Gamercow

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Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 01:25:22 PM
When this first happens, I think 'why aren't they calling for an audit of the scales? Apparently there's some reason.'
How is the story resolved? They call for an audit of the scales...Which, as it turns out, is very easy.
How is this protagonist supposed to be a tough-as-nails successful captain on the high seas of the post-apocalypse?

This does sort of get explained.  The MC has been blamed by many people, including herself, for the breakup of a whole household, scattering them to the wind.  She is not guilty of this, it was her mother that made the decision, but she has been feeling the repercussions of it her whole life.  When you're told you're worthless and/or to blame for everything enough times, you start to believe it. 

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Unblinking

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Reply #18 on: June 21, 2011, 02:17:36 PM
So, this is a quality story, but it's not going to be everyone's idea of sci-fi. But I guess if you think it's a bit too much of an emo trip then don't just get angry, get even -  write something that you would like to listen to and send it in (after August 1st)

I disagree.  Although the SF elements were mostly background, I don't have a big problem with that.  I just wasn't really impressed by the story.  It wasn't bad, fair-to-middlin' I'd say, but it's one of those that for me is nowhere near award-nomination quality--the nomination raises the bar for me.

It was an okay story.  The characters were believable and felt like real people, which is always a plus.  The reasons I didn't really care for it overall:
--It was way too long for its content.  If it had been half the length it might've been about right.  As it was, it seemed like ages between anything important happening.  My mind kept wandering, but when I rewound and relistened I hadn't really missed anything.
--The driving motivation of having a baby isn't one I find particularly compelling.  That's not the author's fault, it just is.  If there'd been other major themes that appealed to me I could've latched onto one of those instead.
--The main conflict of the crooked dockmaster was so easily resolved that the resolution was a major letdown especially after such a long story.  After a couple problems they try the obvious and society-approved solution.  And on that first try, they succeed.  This did not provide me with tension.
--A minor conflict that it seemed to hint at at the end was that the protagonist technically had the right to have a baby with the flag, but gave it to Nina instead.  But, really, that wasn't a conflict either.  Nina had been very vocally desperate to have a baby, while the protagonist was clearly indifferent.  Giving the rights to Nina was a win-win, and also provided no tension.
--The statement at the end about her already being a parent seemed like it was meant to be profound, but that had crossed my mind just a few minutes into the story.  As I was sorting the character relationships, I'd mentally labeled this one as adopted mother/daughter.  So it surprised me that the character seemed to only be discovering this herself at the end and saying it as though it were a profound statement.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 02:19:18 PM by Unblinking »



blueeyeddevil

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Reply #19 on: June 21, 2011, 05:01:53 PM
When this first happens, I think 'why aren't they calling for an audit of the scales? Apparently there's some reason.'
How is the story resolved? They call for an audit of the scales...Which, as it turns out, is very easy.
How is this protagonist supposed to be a tough-as-nails successful captain on the high seas of the post-apocalypse?

This does sort of get explained.  The MC has been blamed by many people, including herself, for the breakup of a whole household, scattering them to the wind.  She is not guilty of this, it was her mother that made the decision, but she has been feeling the repercussions of it her whole life.  When you're told you're worthless and/or to blame for everything enough times, you start to believe it. 

I got that, yet somehow we're supposed to believe this character was simulataneously brave and tough enough to overcome her stigma and become a successful captain, yet fragile and self-doubting enough to fall for this crap?
Furthmore, if she's been a captain for fifteen years, and their household has been in this port, and old man meanie has been working the scales that long, as is implied, how is this becoming a problem only now?



Scatcatpdx

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Reply #20 on: June 21, 2011, 05:39:06 PM
The story did may fit the description of Science fiction but well in the realm of speculative fiction. I not going to split hairs on this one there are plenty other stories I heard on Escape Pod I felt were just plain old fiction. 

The story is well done but I had a problem how totalitarianism was sugarcoated, the state determines if one can have a kid and what household you can be part of.  I see it a picture of the sustainable   future some in the environmentalist movement dream of. In addition the problem of such contacted political power and regulation it can bring, in a small way, as in the case of the weight station master.



Duriyah

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Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 01:09:57 AM
I'm posting before I read the other comments so I'm not influenced.

That was a good story! I thought the world building was well-worked into the story so that I got a good sense of how things worked without being pulled out of the story with exposition. It was really well-written in general. Even though I could tell where it was going, I really got pulled into the characters' struggles and dreams. And yeah, I wiped a tear at the end.

So, overall: certainly not earth-shattering, but a really enjoyable listen. AND the narration was great!



Talia

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Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 01:23:21 AM
Well I quite enjoyed it. I think rather than any given character, it was the world building that caught my interest; interesting setup, with shipmates serving as family not just a team/co-workers. I found the severe repercussions for unauthorized breeding quite chilling. I didn't particularly connect with the characters, but I liked the setup so I didn't mind. I think I would have enjoyed getting to know the other shipmates a little more.


I got that, yet somehow we're supposed to believe this character was simulataneously brave and tough enough to overcome her stigma and become a successful captain, yet fragile and self-doubting enough to fall for this crap?


I believe it because I see those kinds of conflicts in people every day.



CryptoMe

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Reply #23 on: June 22, 2011, 06:48:13 AM
I found this story seriously disappointing, especially because it was a Hugo nomination.

As Blueeyeddevil and Unblinking already said, I found the whole audit resolution completely facile, especially considering how long this had apparently gone on. Really? Could no-one think to ask for an audit, re-weigh, another scale master, whatever?

But most importantly, I found the relationships between the "family members" seriously underdeveloped in the story. How do these strangers come to care for each other as a family? Why aren't they just room-mates/business partners? And ultimately, why should they (or I) care if they get separated? That flaw, broke the story for me.



kibitzer

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Reply #24 on: June 22, 2011, 10:58:14 AM
It's fascinating how polarising this story is. I was completely captivated by the very human elemnts.


Thunderscreech

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Reply #25 on: June 22, 2011, 02:31:35 PM
When I was a kid, science fiction stories were about spaceships, lasers, and aliens.  As time passed, I gradually became more interested in the people and social 'what if's' of SF.  Amaryllis (and 'For Want of a Nail' for that matter) scratch that itch.  It's interesting to live a slice of a life being experienced by people who are operating on a very different set of assumptions and constraints. Whether it's the seemingly heartless (but necessary) way people are recycled in FWoaN when they reach their end of usefulness or the resource-limited society of Amaryllis where having children is a strictly controlled, community driven phenomena, both of these stories briefly immersed me in a different possible culture of the future.



dragonsbreath

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Reply #26 on: June 23, 2011, 01:49:27 PM
The story was good in that it touched on my personal beliefs about personal freedom and liberty. The world described in this story was that of a collective/communal society where resources are distributed by a central committee. Personal decisions such as having a baby, are relegated to the community as a whole. This is antithetical to my opinion that each is entitled to the fruits of his/her labor whether it be money, property or raising and supporting a family. This pursuit of personal fulfillment can only be attenuated when the rights of others are infringed. I can appreciate the need for a more communal society when resources are limited. Unfortunately, even in a communal society someone has to be in charge of deciding allotments of resources. When an entire society comes to depend on a centralized controlling entity for its existence then corruption, favoritism and despotism often occurs.

This story presents a somewhat favorable view of a communal society, but it is only a story. In reality, when someone has the courage to expose corruption of public officials in such collective regimes, they are the ones often punished.



ElectricPaladin

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Reply #27 on: June 23, 2011, 01:52:36 PM
This story presents a somewhat favorable view of a communal society, but it is only a story. In reality, when someone has the courage to expose corruption of public officials in such collective regimes, they are the ones often punished.

Because our individualist culture in America is completely free of corruption, unfairness, and inequity. A veritable bastion of fairness and justice, we are. Yep.

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Devoted135

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Reply #28 on: June 23, 2011, 02:20:02 PM
I keep trying to post in this thread and then getting stuck, mostly because there are a number of perfectly valid (and quite convincing) criticisms and deconstructions of the story that have been posted, thus making it difficult to post my gut reaction to the story. Which is that I loved it. It made me feel good inside, complete with warm fuzzies and hot chocolate (which was weird, because it's about 100 degrees outside). So there! :D

I must admit that even upon first listen I was surprised by how easily the committee agreed to her requests and kept expecting the other shoe to drop. However, I would submit that while the MC isn't exactly an unreliable narrator, she's certainly a biased one. Sure, the ruling body was super harsh in dividing her mother's household up, but resources were a lot more scarce back then. Maybe now, something like 30-40 years later, they've lightened up since resources are obviously starting to be more plentiful. So perhaps the system has changed for the better, but the MC is still operating as if it hasn't. She almost reminds me of the people who lived through the great depression and then became pseudo-hoarders later in life because they couldn't adjust to living in a time of plenty after such a time of lack.



Devoted135

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Reply #29 on: June 23, 2011, 02:24:00 PM
This story presents a somewhat favorable view of a communal society, but it is only a story. In reality, when someone has the courage to expose corruption of public officials in such collective regimes, they are the ones often punished.

Because our individualist culture in America is completely free of corruption, unfairness, and inequity. A veritable bastion of fairness and justice, we are. Yep.

Oh yes, we are a paragon among societies and don't you forget it!



InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #30 on: June 23, 2011, 05:45:15 PM
In a weird bit of synchronicity, I was working on historical pictures of the Fulton Fish Market while listening to this.  Maybe that's why I liked it a bit more than others.

Though I do agree that the resolution was a little too pat. Turns out it all hinged on the main character's lack of confidence. I kept expecting something really nasty to happen, and it didn't (as one might expect in a by-your-fingernails society).

Though perhaps I should be glad there's not too much hopelessness in a post-environmental collapse story....



Calculating...

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Reply #31 on: June 24, 2011, 04:43:16 AM
Stuck on a feminist rant that's spilling over from podcastle, but here goes. This story was about women's uncontrollable need to be mothers and have babies. Obviously all women want to mother something, be it a younger member of the house, an illegally conceived child, or a baby you're allowed to have and keep. Come on, really?
I have to say the author did a wonderful job portraying the difficulties of being a woman in charge who is tough and can handle herself (to an extent) who is also traumatized by her past and things that were out of her control. That takes a lot of strength and courage to accept and love who you are, male or female, and then it takes even more to say a big screw you to the person/people/thing that has been a constant reminder/tormentor for most of your life. This is not an 'emo girl' story, it's a story about strength, courage, and a woman's uncontrollable desire to reproduce and play mommy.

I don't know who you are or where you came from, but from now on you'll do as I tell you, okay?


Calculating...

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Reply #32 on: June 24, 2011, 04:55:08 AM
All that aside, does anyone else have a string hankering to go fishing and eat some tuna?

I don't know who you are or where you came from, but from now on you'll do as I tell you, okay?


grokman

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Reply #33 on: June 24, 2011, 12:25:39 PM
Others may complain about the lack of "REAL" sci-fi elements in this story, but I found the world-building to be so intriguing that I didn't worry that there weren't enough robots and lasers. I especially liked (and was frustrated by) the parts that WEREN'T explained - how did the "house" system come about? What was "The Big Fall" (?? forget the term). Why would one include radishes but not carrots in their garden? (ok, not really - I just don't like radishes). I've got a soft spot for post-apocalyptic stories, and it's refreshing to read one that's centered on civilization that's pretty much totally re-established, albeit markedly different from the pre-apocalyptic times. And nice to see that in that new civilization that people are still very much the same - holding grudges, longing for children, and in general just wanting a nice life for themselves and the ones they love, even those that aren't authorized by a quota committee.



Unblinking

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Reply #34 on: June 24, 2011, 01:24:03 PM
I must admit that even upon first listen I was surprised by how easily the committee agreed to her requests and kept expecting the other shoe to drop. However, I would submit that while the MC isn't exactly an unreliable narrator, she's certainly a biased one. Sure, the ruling body was super harsh in dividing her mother's household up, but resources were a lot more scarce back then. Maybe now, something like 30-40 years later, they've lightened up since resources are obviously starting to be more plentiful. So perhaps the system has changed for the better, but the MC is still operating as if it hasn't. She almost reminds me of the people who lived through the great depression and then became pseudo-hoarders later in life because they couldn't adjust to living in a time of plenty after such a time of lack.

For me it wasn't an issue of believability.  At the end it became clear that the government wasn't as set against her as she'd thought, just some of the government staff, and I think you're right about her being a biased narrator that made me think that.

For me it was an issue of tension.  Throughout most of the story it seems to be person vs. society, big conflict, relatively large stakes.  At the end it turns out it was person vs. person, and that conflict was resolved with the first attempt at a solution. 



Corcoran

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Reply #35 on: June 24, 2011, 01:53:49 PM
I found this story seriously disappointing, especially because it was a Hugo nomination.

The setting was unclear and uninteresting, there was no problem to be solved that was worth mentioning.
People are no free to get as much children as they want, ok, thats SF. But that should be the same way today, most of the problems that mankind
faces comes from this fact.



Talia

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Reply #36 on: June 24, 2011, 02:03:16 PM
there was no problem to be solved that was worth mentioning.

I completely disagree. The issue with the guy who was measuring their catches was a serious one, considering he was actively screwing them over with potentially severe consequences.



bolddeceiver

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Reply #37 on: June 24, 2011, 05:51:19 PM
I've been off the forums a while, but didn't there used to be a general agreement not to argue the "is it SF" question in episode threads?

I personally really dug this story, and actually choked up a bit at the end.  SF doesn't just have to be about rocket ships, speculation on the implications of developing phenomena and the societal changes that might be necessary to confront them has its place as well.  This story did a good job of it, without going down the path I was afraid of with to end with a self-righteous strawman screed about how evil this fictional society is because it doesn't conform to our present norms and values.  Of what I've read/heard so far this would have my Hugo vote, were I a WorldCon attendee.



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Reply #38 on: June 24, 2011, 06:12:44 PM
Good to see you around again, Bolddeceiver!


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Reply #39 on: June 25, 2011, 12:45:38 AM
I've been off the forums a while, but didn't there used to be a general agreement not to argue the "is it SF" question in episode threads?

Yeah, but it still comes up quite frequently. Doesn't usually continue ad nauseum, though.


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Reply #40 on: June 25, 2011, 01:27:57 AM
there was no problem to be solved that was worth mentioning.

I completely disagree. The issue with the guy who was measuring their catches was a serious one, considering he was actively screwing them over with potentially severe consequences.

I disagree as well... The guy is not the problem of the story, he has no arc in the story, and doesn't understand all unhappiness he is causing. I think the "problem" of the story is the protagonist who (although she won't admit it) thinks that she deserves all bad things that happen to her, who doesn't want to improve for this same reason.



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Reply #41 on: June 25, 2011, 01:32:01 AM
there was no problem to be solved that was worth mentioning.

I completely disagree. The issue with the guy who was measuring their catches was a serious one, considering he was actively screwing them over with potentially severe consequences.

I disagree as well... The guy is not the problem of the story, he has no arc in the story, and doesn't understand all unhappiness he is causing. I think the "problem" of the story is the protagonist who (although she won't admit it) thinks that she deserves all bad things that happen to her, who doesn't want to improve for this same reason.

Good point.



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Reply #42 on: July 01, 2011, 02:56:58 AM
I think the story was more or less decently written, hence the characters, or at least the MC and a couple of others, are fleshed out just enough to make them believable, with a bit of biographical depth. The context and world building could have worked better, I thought, but were never really fleshed out or pursued further.

However I was also left wondering about this one being nominated.

Since no one has said so thus far, I wonder if some of those who really enjoyed it or felt emotionally drawn to it weren't reacting in part to the narrator's tone, inflection, etc. She does a good job of putting emotion into it. Having said that, for the first half, as I tried to imagine this tough captain-lady, the narrator's tone just felt too nice - at one point I almost thought it made it sound like YA fiction. But then as the story unfolds and the MC turns out to be rather incapable of taking decisive action that part of the narrating felt perhaps more in line with the story.

One last thought re:
I can appreciate the need for a more communal society when resources are limited. Unfortunately, even in a communal society someone has to be in charge of deciding allotments of resources. When an entire society comes to depend on a centralized controlling entity for its existence then corruption, favoritism and despotism often occurs.

This story presents a somewhat favorable view of a communal society, but it is only a story. In reality, when someone has the courage to expose corruption of public officials in such collective regimes, they are the ones often punished.

Although it is easy to forget, our purportedly globalised planet is currently home to over 4,000 different language communities (yes, that's languages, not "dialects"), comprising thousands of distinct cultural and ethnic groups, not to mention ways of understanding and ordering their particular worlds. In a substantial majority of these groups individualism of the kind you describe is virtually nonexistent; indeed it is antithetical to how people conceive their life-worlds, which is mostly as networks of relations and interdependent institutions. To reduce communalism, as is so often the case in the Cold War and post-Cold War Euroamerican imagination, to a caricature of failed socialist/communist utopias really speaks volumes to our own cultural limitations than to anything else.

Sorry, that all sounds like a rant, and maybe it is, but this touched a raw nerve since I have spent the past 15 years carrying out in-depth ethnographic fieldwork in societies of Oceania and Inner Asia that are profoundly communal, demographically insignificant and in most cases deeply isolated. Communal distribution and ownership in these places makes total sense and is anything but abusive. Moreover, what  these peoples can teach us -in their own peculiar ways- about conflict resolution and survival in the most unlikely environmental and historical circumstances would, I think, leave many of us wondering whether it's out of a SF setting.

Yes, I exaggerate slightly, but much of what I say here is true.

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Reply #43 on: July 01, 2011, 04:40:20 AM
One last thought re:
I can appreciate the need for a more communal society when resources are limited. Unfortunately, even in a communal society someone has to be in charge of deciding allotments of resources. When an entire society comes to depend on a centralized controlling entity for its existence then corruption, favoritism and despotism often occurs.

This story presents a somewhat favorable view of a communal society, but it is only a story. In reality, when someone has the courage to expose corruption of public officials in such collective regimes, they are the ones often punished.

Although it is easy to forget, our purportedly globalised planet is currently home to over 4,000 different language communities (yes, that's languages, not "dialects"), comprising thousands of distinct cultural and ethnic groups, not to mention ways of understanding and ordering their particular worlds. In a substantial majority of these groups individualism of the kind you describe is virtually nonexistent; indeed it is antithetical to how people conceive their life-worlds, which is mostly as networks of relations and interdependent institutions. To reduce communalism, as is so often the case in the Cold War and post-Cold War Euroamerican imagination, to a caricature of failed socialist/communist utopias really speaks volumes to our own cultural limitations than to anything else.

Sorry, that all sounds like a rant, and maybe it is, but this touched a raw nerve since I have spent the past 15 years carrying out in-depth ethnographic fieldwork in societies of Oceania and Inner Asia that are profoundly communal, demographically insignificant and in most cases deeply isolated. Communal distribution and ownership in these places makes total sense and is anything but abusive. Moreover, what  these peoples can teach us -in their own peculiar ways- about conflict resolution and survival in the most unlikely environmental and historical circumstances would, I think, leave many of us wondering whether it's out of a SF setting.

Yes, I exaggerate slightly, but much of what I say here is true.

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Reply #44 on: July 01, 2011, 04:08:51 PM
Since no one has said so thus far, I wonder if some of those who really enjoyed it or felt emotionally drawn to it weren't reacting in part to the narrator's tone, inflection, etc. She does a good job of putting emotion into it. Having said that, for the first half, as I tried to imagine this tough captain-lady, the narrator's tone just felt too nice - at one point I almost thought it made it sound like YA fiction. But then as the story unfolds and the MC turns out to be rather incapable of taking decisive action that part of the narrating felt perhaps more in line with the story.

Good question.  I'd first read it in text on Lightspeed, and had had the same reaction as I did hearing it the 2nd time.  It's possible that if I'd first heard it I would've had a different reaction.  For my part, I don't think my reaction would really have differed. 



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Reply #45 on: July 01, 2011, 08:23:55 PM
Preach, brother/sister/thing!

 :D
It's been a while since a comment on any particular forum actually made me laugh out loud.

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Reply #46 on: July 02, 2011, 01:52:16 PM
I'm just getting around to replying to the points made by 'Unblinking' especially in his replies to my comments. We were broadly on either side of the 'I like this story / I don't like this story' divide'.

It may be that one of the reasons this story divided people is that it has something of a 'slice of life' feel to it, rather than the usual beginning, middle end. For me the interaction of character, and the identification with characters worked, I think of others it didn't. I can see why Unblinking would say (quote):

It was way too long for its content.  If it had been half the length it might've been about right.  As it was, it seemed like ages between anything important happening.  My mind kept wandering, but when I rewound and relistened I hadn't really missed anything.

I think with this story you had to savour the journey, if that worked for you, great, if it didn't and it all seemed like meagre fare, as it did for a number of people, then you are going to end up feeling like there wasn't much to this episode.

The other issue here is that it might not be wise to listen to this story thinking too much about it's award nomination, if anyone did that they might well end up spending more time comparing it to the standard in their head and not just enjoying the tale for what it is.

I think the story works, but it leaving me thinking the author could do even more, even better; whatever the outcome of the awards, my advice to Carrie Vaughn (meant absolutely as encouragement)would be: ' This is very good, but I think there's even more in you as a writer; keep aiming higher, your best work is yet to come.'



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Reply #47 on: July 03, 2011, 02:57:46 PM
I couldn't help while listening to this but think of something a friend wrote: 'The Fish Quota Song'.

Tedious backstory: part of a political fantasy LRP game we play involves the harvesting of resources; fish in particular were being harvested to excess, so we needed to agree some fishing protocols. The discussions were infamously long and boring. Before long, 'the Fish Quota' became a codeword for 'long and boring conversation', and was in fact used as a cover to dissuade people from listening in on much more interesting and important conversations. In celebration of this, my friend was asked to write a song on the subject, and rose to the challenge.




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Reply #48 on: July 04, 2011, 07:17:18 PM
I liked the pacing and world building, but ultimately felt it was a bit too heavy on explaining how the world worked. I wonder if part of that had to do with it being read out loud? Stories read different to me on the page versus out loud.



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Reply #49 on: July 05, 2011, 02:16:00 PM
The other issue here is that it might not be wise to listen to this story thinking too much about it's award nomination, if anyone did that they might well end up spending more time comparing it to the standard in their head and not just enjoying the tale for what it is.

I think that's just a natural response to any kind of award nom.  I often say similar things for the Oscar winners, and etc...  Awards are always a point of contention.  I like to hear what was nominated to get an idea what people are looking for in a winning story.  Unfortunately the answer is usually "Not what I like to read" (and all-too-often "Stories by people who are already famous, regardless of quality"). 

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more from a Hugo-nominated story.  It was chosen by a large portion of the SF fan community as being within the top five of its class for its year.  That's supposed to be significant.



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Reply #50 on: July 05, 2011, 03:52:39 PM
The other issue here is that it might not be wise to listen to this story thinking too much about it's award nomination, if anyone did that they might well end up spending more time comparing it to the standard in their head and not just enjoying the tale for what it is.

I think that's just a natural response to any kind of award nom.  I often say similar things for the Oscar winners, and etc...  Awards are always a point of contention.  I like to hear what was nominated to get an idea what people are looking for in a winning story.  Unfortunately the answer is usually "Not what I like to read" (and all-too-often "Stories by people who are already famous, regardless of quality"). 

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more from a Hugo-nominated story.  It was chosen by a large portion of the SF fan community as being within the top five of its class for its year.  That's supposed to be significant.

I imagine that means 'first past the post' which may not be what most people want to have as the winner. Given the huge range of preferences even on this forum, you can imagine several niche nominations from preference groups constituting the majority of votes, with one general appeal entry getting the rest. One of those will win over a bunch of quality niches every time. Not that all niches are quality and all general appeals are dross. Withdraws to safe distance while numbers geeks take aim ...

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Reply #51 on: July 05, 2011, 04:13:00 PM
I imagine that means 'first past the post' which may not be what most people want to have as the winner. Given the huge range of preferences even on this forum, you can imagine several niche nominations from preference groups constituting the majority of votes, with one general appeal entry getting the rest. One of those will win over a bunch of quality niches every time. Not that all niches are quality and all general appeals are dross. Withdraws to safe distance while numbers geeks take aim ...

Yeah, I think that's generally pretty fair to say.  The winner may not be anyone's absolute favorite, but might be lot's of people's 2nd or 3rd favorite.  A story with wide general appeal that may simply be okay, written by Big Name at Big Magazine is much much more likely to win than one which is of superb quality aimed at a smaller niche, or written by an author or published in a magazine with less exposure.



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Reply #52 on: July 06, 2011, 01:08:45 AM
The other issue here is that it might not be wise to listen to this story thinking too much about it's award nomination, if anyone did that they might well end up spending more time comparing it to the standard in their head and not just enjoying the tale for what it is.

I think that's just a natural response to any kind of award nom.  I often say similar things for the Oscar winners, and etc...  Awards are always a point of contention.  I like to hear what was nominated to get an idea what people are looking for in a winning story.  Unfortunately the answer is usually "Not what I like to read" (and all-too-often "Stories by people who are already famous, regardless of quality"). 

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more from a Hugo-nominated story.  It was chosen by a large portion of the SF fan community as being within the top five of its class for its year.  That's supposed to be significant.


Not sure if this'll get split off, but --

1. I've found over the past few years that the Hugo stories are generally polarizing on the forums. Especially last year and this year. It may be because we're expecting more.

2. Just because it's award-nominated doesn't mean it's (a) good (b) one of the five best stories in its category (c) something you'll like.

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Reply #53 on: July 06, 2011, 01:29:17 PM
Not sure if this'll get split off, but --

1. I've found over the past few years that the Hugo stories are generally polarizing on the forums. Especially last year and this year. It may be because we're expecting more.

2. Just because it's award-nominated doesn't mean it's (a) good (b) one of the five best stories in its category (c) something you'll like.

True, true.  I think any popular awards are generally polarizing no matter where you go, this is but one of those.  :)  I don't really see a problem with that, it encourages some good lively discussion about what makes a story "good".  That kind of discussion is the reason I show up here.  I'd say, though, that the point of having awards is to attempt to reward the "best" stories in each category.  The trouble is that every single person's definition of "best" is different from every other.  The best one can do is a popular vote, which is by no means definitive.

I appreciate that Escape Pod runs the ones they can every year, because I often don't go hunt the stories down otherwise.



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Reply #54 on: July 06, 2011, 04:25:03 PM

1. I've found over the past few years that the Hugo stories are generally polarizing on the forums. Especially last year and this year. It may be because we're expecting more.

2. Just because it's award-nominated doesn't mean it's (a) good (b) one of the five best stories in its category (c) something you'll like.

I've tried not to let this bother me. No one on Escape Artists chooses these, they don't deserve any grief, and if that's what the Hugo voters choose, *shrug*. I'm not a Hugo voter. I don't nominate them.

I'm just glad that Escape Pod podcasts them for me to hear. I genuinely appreciate the opportunity to listen. Thanks.



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Reply #55 on: July 07, 2011, 03:58:29 PM
I wish I listened to this before I read Avries. I think I would've liked it a lot more. Not that I didn't like this one, but I thought it was just okay...as opposed to after hearing Avries, I sat in my chair at work with my mouth dropped open the entire time. Could not work at all, I was that floored by it.

This one was pretty predictable. Okay writing, but not really memorable.

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Reply #56 on: July 09, 2011, 08:06:51 PM

There be islands in the Central Sea, whose waters are bounded by no shore and where no ships come...

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Reply #57 on: July 12, 2011, 04:19:42 PM
Amaryllis: didn't love it, didn't hate it.

I'm going to nit-pic on a particular point that i don't think anyone has mentioned.

Apparently this society is all about "maintaining", not growing.  We are also told that pregnancy is extremely rare, so much so that Nina probably hadn't seen more than one pregnant woman in the last decade or so.

So either:
    1) There is some sort of immortality serum that wasn't mentioned, or
    2) There are massive amounts of immigrants not mentioned (which doesn't mesh with the portrayal of a very stable, hide-bound society, or
    3) The laws of math are different in this story's universe

Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes.


It is surprising how often science fiction flubs this pretty basic understanding of population, obviously their attention was on other things.  But science-fiction writers of the future, please take note!




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Reply #58 on: July 12, 2011, 04:44:13 PM
Amaryllis: didn't love it, didn't hate it.

I'm going to nit-pic on a particular point that i don't think anyone has mentioned.

Apparently this society is all about "maintaining", not growing.  We are also told that pregnancy is extremely rare, so much so that Nina probably hadn't seen more than one pregnant woman in the last decade or so.

So either:
    1) There is some sort of immortality serum that wasn't mentioned, or
    2) There are massive amounts of immigrants not mentioned (which doesn't mesh with the portrayal of a very stable, hide-bound society, or
    3) The laws of math are different in this story's universe

Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes.


It is surprising how often science fiction flubs this pretty basic understanding of population, obviously their attention was on other things.  But science-fiction writers of the future, please take note!



If resources aren't scarce. I think that's the point of this story. This is a society that seems to be living on the sharp edge of possible starvation and resource - food - collapse. Tip the balance with too high a population and everybody starves. If they have a population of, say, 100,000 but only have enough to feed 90,000 in the long term, then the population needs to shrink.





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Reply #59 on: July 12, 2011, 07:24:57 PM
Amaryllis: didn't love it, didn't hate it.

I'm going to nit-pic on a particular point that i don't think anyone has mentioned.

Apparently this society is all about "maintaining", not growing.  We are also told that pregnancy is extremely rare, so much so that Nina probably hadn't seen more than one pregnant woman in the last decade or so.

So either:
    1) There is some sort of immortality serum that wasn't mentioned, or
    2) There are massive amounts of immigrants not mentioned (which doesn't mesh with the portrayal of a very stable, hide-bound society, or
    3) The laws of math are different in this story's universe

Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes.


It is surprising how often science fiction flubs this pretty basic understanding of population, obviously their attention was on other things.  But science-fiction writers of the future, please take note!



If resources aren't scarce. I think that's the point of this story. This is a society that seems to be living on the sharp edge of possible starvation and resource - food - collapse. Tip the balance with too high a population and everybody starves. If they have a population of, say, 100,000 but only have enough to feed 90,000 in the long term, then the population needs to shrink.




Really, we're currently at this situation in our current global situation.  Millions of people starving.  If something happened like most sea life perishing, that number could easily push into the billions.

Society in this story has basically collapsed due to some cataclysm, because you don't go from our current economy to a self-sufficient trade based economy without something massive breaking. 

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Reply #60 on: July 12, 2011, 09:15:19 PM
Amaryllis: didn't love it, didn't hate it.

I'm going to nit-pic on a particular point that i don't think anyone has mentioned.

Apparently this society is all about "maintaining", not growing.  We are also told that pregnancy is extremely rare, so much so that Nina probably hadn't seen more than one pregnant woman in the last decade or so.

So either:
    1) There is some sort of immortality serum that wasn't mentioned, or
    2) There are massive amounts of immigrants not mentioned (which doesn't mesh with the portrayal of a very stable, hide-bound society, or
    3) The laws of math are different in this story's universe

Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes.

It is surprising how often science fiction flubs this pretty basic understanding of population, obviously their attention was on other things.  But science-fiction writers of the future, please take note!

If resources aren't scarce. I think that's the point of this story. This is a society that seems to be living on the sharp edge of possible starvation and resource - food - collapse. Tip the balance with too high a population and everybody starves. If they have a population of, say, 100,000 but only have enough to feed 90,000 in the long term, then the population needs to shrink.

Really, we're currently at this situation in our current global situation.  Millions of people starving.  If something happened like most sea life perishing, that number could easily push into the billions.

Society in this story has basically collapsed due to some cataclysm, because you don't go from our current economy to a self-sufficient trade based economy without something massive breaking.

Just to clarify here, there is currently enough food world wide produced annually to sufficiently end world hunger, is right now over population is not the issue we currently face in regards to adequate food supply. The reason we have people starving in this world is due to so many other reasons and if I wanted to bore everyone with the details, I would make this post ridiculously long. I took this story more as our future as humans bound to a planet with limited resources and the society that came about as a direct result of over population and over use of limited resources. To me, this society arose out of a need to be cautious and careful of how humans live their lives and their lives affect the planet and other people around them. Rather idealistic in my mind, but hey, it's fiction. So really, I did not view this as a society worried about growing, they are actively trying to maintain, even make their society smaller, rather than grow.

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Reply #61 on: July 12, 2011, 10:01:01 PM
.....Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes....

If resources aren't scarce. I think that's the point of this story. This is a society that seems to be living on the sharp edge of possible starvation and resource - food - collapse. Tip the balance with too high a population and everybody starves. If they have a population of, say, 100,000 but only have enough to feed 90,000 in the long term, then the population needs to shrink.
I don't think so.  Nobody was starving or hungry in their town.  If you listen it was easy for the crew of the Amaryllis to catch more than their quota, and Nina had an idea for fish farming that could double their haul.  And the almost legendary tuna was making a comeback.  This isn't a world on the edge of starvation, but one so paranoid about using up their resources, that they cap growth far below what they can support.

But even if your guess is correct, that they wanted (for whatever reason) knock down their population by 10% within 1 human lifespan, each woman would still need to have on average 1.9 children + whatever it takes to make up for child mortality.

The story doesn't (nor should it) give solid demographic info.  But let's assume 1 out of every 20 women have a single child in this story-- that's probably a very high estimate.  In the space of 1 human lifespan their population will be down to 2.5% of it's original size.  To put it another way, for every 40 people there are now, there will only be one in the next generation.
--Societal extinction.



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Reply #62 on: July 12, 2011, 11:28:09 PM
I can't remember how much detail it went into about the birth restrictions, but I don't think it was explicitly an across-the-board limit. It might have been to do with time and place: maybe babies are normally restricted to women above a certain age, who don't work in hazardous jobs like deep-sea fishing. Maybe there's some kind of eugenics thing going on. Maybe it's a caste system where certain women are permitted/expected to bear numerous children.



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Reply #63 on: July 13, 2011, 06:42:05 PM
I can't remember how much detail it went into about the birth restrictions,

It didn't say. But it did say:

   Elsie might have been the first pregnant woman Nina had seen, at least since surviving puberty ...

Since Nina is twenty, that's quite some time never to see a pregnant woman, even if they are "in the household, sheltered and treasured".



(Have I mentioned that I love that EP now carries the text for most stories? It makes checking my recollection so much easier!)

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Reply #64 on: July 14, 2011, 05:46:47 PM
I can't remember how much detail it went into about the birth restrictions, but I don't think it was explicitly an across-the-board limit. It might have been to do with time and place: maybe babies are normally restricted to women above a certain age, who don't work in hazardous jobs like deep-sea fishing. Maybe there's some kind of eugenics thing going on. Maybe it's a caste system where certain women are permitted/expected to bear numerous children.

I don't think this is supported by the story, at least for the seaside community - it made it very clear, at several points, that allowing children was very much about resource quotas, and that you had to get strict approval for the number of children. The whole story hinges on the fact that the captain had to go through a (for her) terrifying application in order to get permission for a baby, but the decision of *who* could have the baby was entirely up to her and made without question.

That said, it could be that just like there are communities whose role it is to provide protein for other communities, it could also be that there are communities whose primary role is breeding, where the quota system is different. Otherwise, I agree with jwbjerk that the math doesn't work.

As for my general opinion of the story, I think it was very well written (and very well narrated), but not very interesting once it's done. I agree with everyone who said that the conflict was resolved too easily - and I think that this applies to both the external conflict with the scalemaster, but also to the captain's internal conflict. It felt like all she needed was to be forced to make a stand and then, misgivings and all, she could do it.



mbrennan

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Reply #65 on: August 20, 2011, 08:10:47 AM
I listened to this right after "For Want of a Nail," and so that colored my reaction.  I enjoyed "Amaryllis" -- it's perfectly pleasant and well-characterized -- but it felt to me like this story was really only grappling with one issue (the protagonist's lack of self-confidence), whereas "Nail" was grappling with several (dementia, engineering, the protagonist's youth and inexperience, etc).  And the resolution, as other people have said, was pretty simple, with no actual hard choices to be made.  I've spent some time considering whether I'm falling prey to the common pattern of valuing certain kinds of stories (war!) over others (love and other squishy things!), and I don't think so; "Nail" was also very personal in a lot of ways, but it was an orchestrated composition, whereas this one is a pleasing-but-simple melody.

So yeah, it ends up looking weaker than it might have if people weren't judging it as a Hugo nominee.



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #66 on: August 20, 2011, 06:40:36 PM
"For Want of a Nail" ... was an orchestrated composition, whereas this one is a pleasing-but-simple melody.

What a lovely metaphor!

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


mbrennan

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Reply #67 on: August 20, 2011, 09:50:16 PM
Thanks!  I was trying to find some way to say that I didn't think this story was the equal of the other (in award terms), without saying that meant "Amaryllis" was a *bad* story.  Because I don't think it is.  I enjoyed it plenty.  I just don't see it as Hugo material.



tekhammer

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Reply #68 on: August 31, 2011, 10:42:58 PM
Hey, the big problem with this story is the "self-pity" complex that manifests itself as
TOO much post-apocalyptic science fiction these days.
Now, Good PA fiction is fine. But we have too much of it.
Some thing a little less...depressing, please.

Thanks.



Talia

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Reply #69 on: September 01, 2011, 02:10:59 AM
Some thing a little less...depressing, please.

Thanks.

Allow me to suggest EP 305, Midnight Blue