Author Topic: EP297: Amaryllis  (Read 27718 times)

Dem

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Reply #50 on: July 05, 2011, 03:52:39 PM
The other issue here is that it might not be wise to listen to this story thinking too much about it's award nomination, if anyone did that they might well end up spending more time comparing it to the standard in their head and not just enjoying the tale for what it is.

I think that's just a natural response to any kind of award nom.  I often say similar things for the Oscar winners, and etc...  Awards are always a point of contention.  I like to hear what was nominated to get an idea what people are looking for in a winning story.  Unfortunately the answer is usually "Not what I like to read" (and all-too-often "Stories by people who are already famous, regardless of quality"). 

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more from a Hugo-nominated story.  It was chosen by a large portion of the SF fan community as being within the top five of its class for its year.  That's supposed to be significant.

I imagine that means 'first past the post' which may not be what most people want to have as the winner. Given the huge range of preferences even on this forum, you can imagine several niche nominations from preference groups constituting the majority of votes, with one general appeal entry getting the rest. One of those will win over a bunch of quality niches every time. Not that all niches are quality and all general appeals are dross. Withdraws to safe distance while numbers geeks take aim ...

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Reply #51 on: July 05, 2011, 04:13:00 PM
I imagine that means 'first past the post' which may not be what most people want to have as the winner. Given the huge range of preferences even on this forum, you can imagine several niche nominations from preference groups constituting the majority of votes, with one general appeal entry getting the rest. One of those will win over a bunch of quality niches every time. Not that all niches are quality and all general appeals are dross. Withdraws to safe distance while numbers geeks take aim ...

Yeah, I think that's generally pretty fair to say.  The winner may not be anyone's absolute favorite, but might be lot's of people's 2nd or 3rd favorite.  A story with wide general appeal that may simply be okay, written by Big Name at Big Magazine is much much more likely to win than one which is of superb quality aimed at a smaller niche, or written by an author or published in a magazine with less exposure.



Listener

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Reply #52 on: July 06, 2011, 01:08:45 AM
The other issue here is that it might not be wise to listen to this story thinking too much about it's award nomination, if anyone did that they might well end up spending more time comparing it to the standard in their head and not just enjoying the tale for what it is.

I think that's just a natural response to any kind of award nom.  I often say similar things for the Oscar winners, and etc...  Awards are always a point of contention.  I like to hear what was nominated to get an idea what people are looking for in a winning story.  Unfortunately the answer is usually "Not what I like to read" (and all-too-often "Stories by people who are already famous, regardless of quality"). 

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more from a Hugo-nominated story.  It was chosen by a large portion of the SF fan community as being within the top five of its class for its year.  That's supposed to be significant.


Not sure if this'll get split off, but --

1. I've found over the past few years that the Hugo stories are generally polarizing on the forums. Especially last year and this year. It may be because we're expecting more.

2. Just because it's award-nominated doesn't mean it's (a) good (b) one of the five best stories in its category (c) something you'll like.

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Reply #53 on: July 06, 2011, 01:29:17 PM
Not sure if this'll get split off, but --

1. I've found over the past few years that the Hugo stories are generally polarizing on the forums. Especially last year and this year. It may be because we're expecting more.

2. Just because it's award-nominated doesn't mean it's (a) good (b) one of the five best stories in its category (c) something you'll like.

True, true.  I think any popular awards are generally polarizing no matter where you go, this is but one of those.  :)  I don't really see a problem with that, it encourages some good lively discussion about what makes a story "good".  That kind of discussion is the reason I show up here.  I'd say, though, that the point of having awards is to attempt to reward the "best" stories in each category.  The trouble is that every single person's definition of "best" is different from every other.  The best one can do is a popular vote, which is by no means definitive.

I appreciate that Escape Pod runs the ones they can every year, because I often don't go hunt the stories down otherwise.



InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #54 on: July 06, 2011, 04:25:03 PM

1. I've found over the past few years that the Hugo stories are generally polarizing on the forums. Especially last year and this year. It may be because we're expecting more.

2. Just because it's award-nominated doesn't mean it's (a) good (b) one of the five best stories in its category (c) something you'll like.

I've tried not to let this bother me. No one on Escape Artists chooses these, they don't deserve any grief, and if that's what the Hugo voters choose, *shrug*. I'm not a Hugo voter. I don't nominate them.

I'm just glad that Escape Pod podcasts them for me to hear. I genuinely appreciate the opportunity to listen. Thanks.



LaShawn

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Reply #55 on: July 07, 2011, 03:58:29 PM
I wish I listened to this before I read Avries. I think I would've liked it a lot more. Not that I didn't like this one, but I thought it was just okay...as opposed to after hearing Avries, I sat in my chair at work with my mouth dropped open the entire time. Could not work at all, I was that floored by it.

This one was pretty predictable. Okay writing, but not really memorable.

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Reply #56 on: July 09, 2011, 08:06:51 PM

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jwbjerk

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Reply #57 on: July 12, 2011, 04:19:42 PM
Amaryllis: didn't love it, didn't hate it.

I'm going to nit-pic on a particular point that i don't think anyone has mentioned.

Apparently this society is all about "maintaining", not growing.  We are also told that pregnancy is extremely rare, so much so that Nina probably hadn't seen more than one pregnant woman in the last decade or so.

So either:
    1) There is some sort of immortality serum that wasn't mentioned, or
    2) There are massive amounts of immigrants not mentioned (which doesn't mesh with the portrayal of a very stable, hide-bound society, or
    3) The laws of math are different in this story's universe

Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes.


It is surprising how often science fiction flubs this pretty basic understanding of population, obviously their attention was on other things.  But science-fiction writers of the future, please take note!




InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #58 on: July 12, 2011, 04:44:13 PM
Amaryllis: didn't love it, didn't hate it.

I'm going to nit-pic on a particular point that i don't think anyone has mentioned.

Apparently this society is all about "maintaining", not growing.  We are also told that pregnancy is extremely rare, so much so that Nina probably hadn't seen more than one pregnant woman in the last decade or so.

So either:
    1) There is some sort of immortality serum that wasn't mentioned, or
    2) There are massive amounts of immigrants not mentioned (which doesn't mesh with the portrayal of a very stable, hide-bound society, or
    3) The laws of math are different in this story's universe

Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes.


It is surprising how often science fiction flubs this pretty basic understanding of population, obviously their attention was on other things.  But science-fiction writers of the future, please take note!



If resources aren't scarce. I think that's the point of this story. This is a society that seems to be living on the sharp edge of possible starvation and resource - food - collapse. Tip the balance with too high a population and everybody starves. If they have a population of, say, 100,000 but only have enough to feed 90,000 in the long term, then the population needs to shrink.





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Reply #59 on: July 12, 2011, 07:24:57 PM
Amaryllis: didn't love it, didn't hate it.

I'm going to nit-pic on a particular point that i don't think anyone has mentioned.

Apparently this society is all about "maintaining", not growing.  We are also told that pregnancy is extremely rare, so much so that Nina probably hadn't seen more than one pregnant woman in the last decade or so.

So either:
    1) There is some sort of immortality serum that wasn't mentioned, or
    2) There are massive amounts of immigrants not mentioned (which doesn't mesh with the portrayal of a very stable, hide-bound society, or
    3) The laws of math are different in this story's universe

Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes.


It is surprising how often science fiction flubs this pretty basic understanding of population, obviously their attention was on other things.  But science-fiction writers of the future, please take note!



If resources aren't scarce. I think that's the point of this story. This is a society that seems to be living on the sharp edge of possible starvation and resource - food - collapse. Tip the balance with too high a population and everybody starves. If they have a population of, say, 100,000 but only have enough to feed 90,000 in the long term, then the population needs to shrink.




Really, we're currently at this situation in our current global situation.  Millions of people starving.  If something happened like most sea life perishing, that number could easily push into the billions.

Society in this story has basically collapsed due to some cataclysm, because you don't go from our current economy to a self-sufficient trade based economy without something massive breaking. 

The cow says "Mooooooooo"


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Reply #60 on: July 12, 2011, 09:15:19 PM
Amaryllis: didn't love it, didn't hate it.

I'm going to nit-pic on a particular point that i don't think anyone has mentioned.

Apparently this society is all about "maintaining", not growing.  We are also told that pregnancy is extremely rare, so much so that Nina probably hadn't seen more than one pregnant woman in the last decade or so.

So either:
    1) There is some sort of immortality serum that wasn't mentioned, or
    2) There are massive amounts of immigrants not mentioned (which doesn't mesh with the portrayal of a very stable, hide-bound society, or
    3) The laws of math are different in this story's universe

Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes.

It is surprising how often science fiction flubs this pretty basic understanding of population, obviously their attention was on other things.  But science-fiction writers of the future, please take note!

If resources aren't scarce. I think that's the point of this story. This is a society that seems to be living on the sharp edge of possible starvation and resource - food - collapse. Tip the balance with too high a population and everybody starves. If they have a population of, say, 100,000 but only have enough to feed 90,000 in the long term, then the population needs to shrink.

Really, we're currently at this situation in our current global situation.  Millions of people starving.  If something happened like most sea life perishing, that number could easily push into the billions.

Society in this story has basically collapsed due to some cataclysm, because you don't go from our current economy to a self-sufficient trade based economy without something massive breaking.

Just to clarify here, there is currently enough food world wide produced annually to sufficiently end world hunger, is right now over population is not the issue we currently face in regards to adequate food supply. The reason we have people starving in this world is due to so many other reasons and if I wanted to bore everyone with the details, I would make this post ridiculously long. I took this story more as our future as humans bound to a planet with limited resources and the society that came about as a direct result of over population and over use of limited resources. To me, this society arose out of a need to be cautious and careful of how humans live their lives and their lives affect the planet and other people around them. Rather idealistic in my mind, but hey, it's fiction. So really, I did not view this as a society worried about growing, they are actively trying to maintain, even make their society smaller, rather than grow.

I don't know who you are or where you came from, but from now on you'll do as I tell you, okay?


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Reply #61 on: July 12, 2011, 10:01:01 PM
.....Because in this universe you need each woman to have (on average) 2 children to maintain a population, plus whatever it takes to cover accidental death and disease.  The society described in this story would be basically extinct in the space of a human life-span, unless it changes....

If resources aren't scarce. I think that's the point of this story. This is a society that seems to be living on the sharp edge of possible starvation and resource - food - collapse. Tip the balance with too high a population and everybody starves. If they have a population of, say, 100,000 but only have enough to feed 90,000 in the long term, then the population needs to shrink.
I don't think so.  Nobody was starving or hungry in their town.  If you listen it was easy for the crew of the Amaryllis to catch more than their quota, and Nina had an idea for fish farming that could double their haul.  And the almost legendary tuna was making a comeback.  This isn't a world on the edge of starvation, but one so paranoid about using up their resources, that they cap growth far below what they can support.

But even if your guess is correct, that they wanted (for whatever reason) knock down their population by 10% within 1 human lifespan, each woman would still need to have on average 1.9 children + whatever it takes to make up for child mortality.

The story doesn't (nor should it) give solid demographic info.  But let's assume 1 out of every 20 women have a single child in this story-- that's probably a very high estimate.  In the space of 1 human lifespan their population will be down to 2.5% of it's original size.  To put it another way, for every 40 people there are now, there will only be one in the next generation.
--Societal extinction.



olivaw

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Reply #62 on: July 12, 2011, 11:28:09 PM
I can't remember how much detail it went into about the birth restrictions, but I don't think it was explicitly an across-the-board limit. It might have been to do with time and place: maybe babies are normally restricted to women above a certain age, who don't work in hazardous jobs like deep-sea fishing. Maybe there's some kind of eugenics thing going on. Maybe it's a caste system where certain women are permitted/expected to bear numerous children.



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #63 on: July 13, 2011, 06:42:05 PM
I can't remember how much detail it went into about the birth restrictions,

It didn't say. But it did say:

   Elsie might have been the first pregnant woman Nina had seen, at least since surviving puberty ...

Since Nina is twenty, that's quite some time never to see a pregnant woman, even if they are "in the household, sheltered and treasured".



(Have I mentioned that I love that EP now carries the text for most stories? It makes checking my recollection so much easier!)

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Reply #64 on: July 14, 2011, 05:46:47 PM
I can't remember how much detail it went into about the birth restrictions, but I don't think it was explicitly an across-the-board limit. It might have been to do with time and place: maybe babies are normally restricted to women above a certain age, who don't work in hazardous jobs like deep-sea fishing. Maybe there's some kind of eugenics thing going on. Maybe it's a caste system where certain women are permitted/expected to bear numerous children.

I don't think this is supported by the story, at least for the seaside community - it made it very clear, at several points, that allowing children was very much about resource quotas, and that you had to get strict approval for the number of children. The whole story hinges on the fact that the captain had to go through a (for her) terrifying application in order to get permission for a baby, but the decision of *who* could have the baby was entirely up to her and made without question.

That said, it could be that just like there are communities whose role it is to provide protein for other communities, it could also be that there are communities whose primary role is breeding, where the quota system is different. Otherwise, I agree with jwbjerk that the math doesn't work.

As for my general opinion of the story, I think it was very well written (and very well narrated), but not very interesting once it's done. I agree with everyone who said that the conflict was resolved too easily - and I think that this applies to both the external conflict with the scalemaster, but also to the captain's internal conflict. It felt like all she needed was to be forced to make a stand and then, misgivings and all, she could do it.



mbrennan

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Reply #65 on: August 20, 2011, 08:10:47 AM
I listened to this right after "For Want of a Nail," and so that colored my reaction.  I enjoyed "Amaryllis" -- it's perfectly pleasant and well-characterized -- but it felt to me like this story was really only grappling with one issue (the protagonist's lack of self-confidence), whereas "Nail" was grappling with several (dementia, engineering, the protagonist's youth and inexperience, etc).  And the resolution, as other people have said, was pretty simple, with no actual hard choices to be made.  I've spent some time considering whether I'm falling prey to the common pattern of valuing certain kinds of stories (war!) over others (love and other squishy things!), and I don't think so; "Nail" was also very personal in a lot of ways, but it was an orchestrated composition, whereas this one is a pleasing-but-simple melody.

So yeah, it ends up looking weaker than it might have if people weren't judging it as a Hugo nominee.



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #66 on: August 20, 2011, 06:40:36 PM
"For Want of a Nail" ... was an orchestrated composition, whereas this one is a pleasing-but-simple melody.

What a lovely metaphor!

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


mbrennan

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Reply #67 on: August 20, 2011, 09:50:16 PM
Thanks!  I was trying to find some way to say that I didn't think this story was the equal of the other (in award terms), without saying that meant "Amaryllis" was a *bad* story.  Because I don't think it is.  I enjoyed it plenty.  I just don't see it as Hugo material.



tekhammer

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Reply #68 on: August 31, 2011, 10:42:58 PM
Hey, the big problem with this story is the "self-pity" complex that manifests itself as
TOO much post-apocalyptic science fiction these days.
Now, Good PA fiction is fine. But we have too much of it.
Some thing a little less...depressing, please.

Thanks.



Talia

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Reply #69 on: September 01, 2011, 02:10:59 AM
Some thing a little less...depressing, please.

Thanks.

Allow me to suggest EP 305, Midnight Blue