Author Topic: PC174: The Parable of the Shower  (Read 32379 times)

NomadicScribe

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Reply #25 on: September 15, 2011, 04:40:41 PM
I love the phrase "with all due respect." It doesn't really mean anything, does it? :P

You're right, it really doesn't. It's a formality I picked up during my military service.

Anyway, I think you're reading a lot into Dave's statements that he didn't actually say.

I'll admit, this was probably a bit of a straw man on my part. Bad form. Maybe it's just 20 years of conditioning (long story) speaking, but when I hear BLASPHEMY it's hard not to immediately think of stuff like the great flood, destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, smashing the tower of Babel, and all the other delightful things that the old testament god liked to do.

Either way, I understand it wasn't meant quite that way, so I'm glad to at least hear that Dave wasn't trying to turn his podcast into some kind of religious hate plateform. I would regret seeing one of my favorite podcasts turn into that, and I'm glad it isn't so.



Captain (none given)

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Activate Ridiculosity Drive
Reply #26 on: September 15, 2011, 05:31:24 PM
Well done! I loved this story and had to restrain myself from laughing so my coworkers wouldn't look at me funny all day. The reading was fantastic and it was well written.

I only have two tiny irks: the second person seemed only there for the constant use of "thou" and "thee," which I guess was the point, but it still kinda annoyed me; the second is how the angels didn't seem to understand how God operates. It really helped build the story and explore ideas of authoritarianism, but it still kinda bugged. Neither of these were actually problems with the story, just things that just kinda stuck with me.


So on to the real discussion... I was born and raised Roman Catholic. Baptized, confirmed, and I'm even a member of a Christ-centered fraternity (yes, they exist). The last religious story that had the word "blasphemy" thrown at it was "Hell is the Absence of God" by Ted Chiang. I went off on a tear about how it was a horrible, blasphemous story etc. I've calmed down since then, so I'm not starting another rant. I actually want to apologize for being so sensitive back then. Living with guys of different religious backgrounds plus a Jesuit education loosened me up about other people's religious ideas. I have to agree with Dave that there is really only one thing Christians need to focus on above all else: love. Love people, love God. Blasphemy is trying to void the core values of any religion which is usually a variant of "Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself." So the only blasphemy is calling for hate.

On that note, Dave... Thank you for calling out OSC like you did. I only ask that we are careful about that, because as soon as we say "OSC is a blasphemer and he sucks!" then that's blasphemy as well because that hates just loops around in a big circle. I know that's not happening now, but I'm just saying we need to be careful. Hypocrisy can find one anywhere.

Written with love,
The Captain
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 08:07:44 PM by Captain (none given) »

"The idea is to write it so that people hear it and it slides through the brain and goes straight to the heart." -- Maya Angelou


aesculapius

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Reply #27 on: September 15, 2011, 07:38:17 PM
Great story, and I think this is definitely one that gained a lot from the excellent reading. One of the best I've heard at Podcastle so far.



slag

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Reply #28 on: September 16, 2011, 08:54:49 PM
I am a Roman Catholic living with an Atheist, and have been for the past three years. Least to say there's been quite
a few discussions here and there about all manner o' existence over a friendly drink.
I really liked this story, mostly because I think it reminds a listener or a reader of their want for freedom of choice
when something they consider greater than themself comes asking for people to just give themself over to a
particular cause.

"Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."


Fenrix

  • Curmudgeonly Co-Editor of PseudoPod
  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
  • I always lock the door when I creep by daylight.
Reply #29 on: September 18, 2011, 04:51:51 AM
Also, just a general note - I'm going to beat Fenrix to this and point out that if you like Laurice White's readings, you should check out the latest Pseudopod - The Eater. I'm really excited to check it out myself :)

Curses! Foiled again!

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


raetsel

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
    • MCL & Me
Reply #30 on: September 18, 2011, 09:13:02 AM
This was a great story that had me chuckling all the way to work. I can't praise the narration by Laurice White highly enough. It took a good story and made it a great one.

As for all the talk about blasphemy, well I have to say I don't believe in blasphemy because I don't believe people's religious beliefs should get special treatment just because they are "religious beliefs" per se and so they shouldn't have special words for offending them.

People can defend their beliefs and take offence or not regardless of whether they are their beliefs about their soccer team, how to raise kids or who sleeps with whom. The fact they are religious beliefs shouldn't give them special pleading, they stand or fall by the strength of their arguments and the evidence they present, regardless.



Rain

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 178
Reply #31 on: September 18, 2011, 09:25:41 AM
I had to stop the story after a few minutes as i found it completely impossible to listen to. I know the reader has a lot of fans, but i dont care for the strong southern accent and together with some writing that was trying to be clever instead of telling a coherent story i just didnt want to spend the time trying to find out if it got better.



mbrennan

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
Reply #32 on: September 18, 2011, 10:10:46 AM
I'm with Spindaddy: at "Motherfu—thou sayest" I cracked up, and knew I was going to love this story.

In fact, I love it enough that I can even forgive it a) the use of second person (I'm another one who rarely likes that approach) and b) the errors in Early Modern English usage.  I once wrote a story in that style myself, and so I know first-hand how difficult it is to maintain for any real length of time; there were places in here where it slipped randomly into "you" instead of "thou," or used the third-person singular ending for second or for plural, etc.  Which is irrelevant to most listeners, I know -- but I noticed.  In a weaker story, they would have kicked me out of the narrative.  Here, it's only a minor quibble.

And yeah, the primary reason for the second-person pov is probably to highlight the tonal distinction between the modern dialogue and the archaic narration.  But I'm okay with that: at least there is a reason, which is more than I generally get from most second-person stories.

The thing I really find myself reflecting on is how many of the things described in the Bible were just as mundane to the Jews and Christians of antiquity as loofahs and showers are to us.  But it's odd to see our familiar mundanity presented in such a light . . . .



Max e^{i pi}

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1038
  • Have towel, will travel.
Reply #33 on: September 18, 2011, 10:41:28 AM
Loved this story, might even be my new favorite.
The biblical thees, thines, thous and wouldsts added that extra little spice that takes a great story and elevates it to epic proportions, particularly when mixed with that inner-city-girl lingo. The contrast was breathtaking. Also, from now on I intend to use the verb "to googlest".
And Dave was right, Laurice White's reading was fantastic. Just hearing that "There's an angel in my shower and he wants to knock me up" in my mind makes me smile.
I particularly loved the surly-telephone-support-staff scene. It made me think of all the wasted hours I've spent on the phone trying to work my way up the fierce gauntlet of incompetents (not a typo, "people who are incompetent" and not "the pervasiveness of incompetence") to someone who can actually solve my problem. Doing it on a cosmic scale? Now that's brilliant.
I also liked the little biblical hints thrown in here and there, that added to the weirdness and just made it that much better.
Lastly, I'd like to point out a further significance in the boy's name, Joseph. See, this boy's job is to prepare the world for the new coming of the lord, and according to some messianic texts that is the role portrayed by the Messiah Son of Joseph.

Cogito ergo surf - I think therefore I network

Registered Linux user #481826 Get Counted!



Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #34 on: September 18, 2011, 11:52:42 AM
Speaking as someone who works in a slightly atypical call center, the mythology around "the manager" is rather irritating.  People firmly believe that I, as the person on the phone, have Secret Powers that I'm not allowed to tell them I have, and the only way to get me to send out the Ninja SWAT Team is to talk to the "manager," who will make it happen if the callers are annoying enough.  Except in our line, the managers actually have even less ability to help than I do (and I don't so much "help" as "write down your crazy ranting in the form of a coherent narrative and forward it to your company, which ignores it.")  Thus, I get to have fun conversations that start with "I want to talk to the manager!" and end up with me listening to the manager on duty repeating the same stuff I just said and then coming and telling me the person hung up.

That crap might work in a customer service call center, bucko, but not on us.  Thus, I resent this story for cogently and convincingly portraying that myth as successful in action.



Max e^{i pi}

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1038
  • Have towel, will travel.
Reply #35 on: September 18, 2011, 12:26:21 PM
At the risk of derailing this thread...
Well, I had my ISP and infrastructure providers in mind when I wrote my post.
I'm fully aware that they deal with people not necessarily adept at this kind of thing all day every day. But when the people who are adept at this call, we would like to skip through the stages that we've already gone through: rebooting the computer, reseting the router, checking that all the cables are properly connected, requesting a new IP from the DNS and often even going through the logs and finding the problem which we can't solve by ourselves which is why we called for support.
Slogging through all that for hours on end with different low-level personnel only to be told what we knew from the beginning, that we need to talk to somebody higher up to fix this issue, goes beyond frustrating. It enters the mystic realm where ordinary peaceful human beings turn into raving lunatics who go on a rampage and write snarky blog posts long into the night discussing the futility of technology, humanity and whether we weren't better off staying in the trees.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 12:29:41 PM by Max e^{i pi} »

Cogito ergo surf - I think therefore I network

Registered Linux user #481826 Get Counted!



Emerald

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Reply #36 on: September 19, 2011, 06:01:33 AM
I have unsubscribed from Podcastle not because of this story. Maybe I will go back and finish it after reading some of the comments. But Dave Thompson has has gone potty mouth too many times. It is a testament to the quality of the podcast that I have held out so far beyond my limit. I'm not a prude (I watched Deadwood, my Rap isn't the radio version) but I don't publicly in front of anybody and everybody use words off the list of the worst ones we can say in this society and I don't have people in my life who put it out there for no good reason (just because I want to hear a story for example). Not to mention that profane is the antonym of religious and Quaker is a form of the Christian religion. Profane is also the near antonym of spiritual.  Whenever people say they are religious or talk about God using such language, I question it. Sorry my first post to the forums is negative. I guess that I have shown my general approval by donating money might make up for that. Thank you.



Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #37 on: September 19, 2011, 07:40:57 AM
Right.  Treating other people as humans is secondary to whether or not you use profanity.  Clearly, anyone who fights for GLBT rights but says b-llsh-t in the process must be evil and not worth hearing.

Profanity is not inherently opposed to religious feeling any more than hysteria is actually caused by having a uterus.  Etymology is not destiny.  Your argument is bunk; there's nothing wrong with being offended by bad language if that's how you feel, but try to at least own it instead of using this weird twisted logic to claim that Dave is somehow violating the laws of the universe by speaking harshly.  Say that you're offended by bad language and leave it at that.

Although at that point, this particular story might cause you a few additional problems...



Anyanwu

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Reply #38 on: September 19, 2011, 08:30:12 AM
I absolutely loved this episode!  This has got to be one of your best.  The reading was awesome!  I know these women and their concerns. "Dealing with the angel of the lord is kinda like dealing with the police who stops you for driving while black"......priceless.  I felt like pod castle finally came to my neighborhood ('bought time, too). Thank you.  Keep up the good work!  



mbrennan

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
Reply #39 on: September 19, 2011, 09:09:30 AM
words off the list of the worst ones we can say in this society

I've come around to the firm opinion that the words we traditionally consider "profanity"?  Don't bother me much.  I honestly feel that nowadays, the worst words we can say in this society are the racial slurs and similar epithets, that seek to put down a group (black people, gays, women, the disabled, etc) just on the basis of who they are.  They're certainly the ones I cringe at the most, anyway, and avoid saying except for the purpose of discussing them.



danooli

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1745
    • Who Doesn't Love Stories?
Reply #40 on: September 19, 2011, 10:57:30 AM
Aw, Emerald, what a shame.  If you get so offended by a simple word, maybe you're right in backing away from a place that celebrates words and how they are used.

I hope your, to my eye narrow, view of the world can expand someday.



Devoted135

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1252
Reply #41 on: September 19, 2011, 04:25:16 PM
.....getting back to the story....

I usually don't like stories that use thee's and thou's because it's simply too difficult to pull off if you haven't studied Middle English. But this story did it was so much sass that I couldn't help but smile throughout. Laurice White was the perfect reader, and she brought the story to life in a way I doubt many other readers could have done.


Fun fact: did you know that "thee" was the informal version of "you" back in the day, used to express familiarity or sometimes disrespect? "You" was the formal/plural version so if it weren't for "thee" falling out of use we wouldn't have all the plural colloquialisms such as y'all. (Yes, I wiki-checked my facts, but I did actually know that before I checked :D).



InfiniteMonkey

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 483
  • Clearly, I need more typewriters....
Reply #42 on: September 19, 2011, 04:43:54 PM
Fun fact: did you know that "thee" was the informal version of "you" back in the day, used to express familiarity or sometimes disrespect?

Why, yes. Yes I did.

 ;)



brlteach

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Reply #43 on: September 19, 2011, 07:29:10 PM
DKT, Thanks for the clarification.  I'll de-ruffle my feathers, now :)

BTW, I didn't find the story blasphemas.  Look forward to next episode.




I mentioned Card's faith not to slam Mormons and LDS in general, or you in particular. I brought it up because his faith and my own share a common text (as you pointed out). When someone claims to follow Jesus's teachings, loving one another seems to be toward the top of the list - no matter how different they are. Hating a group of people because they're different seems to run contrary.

I don't hate Card by any stretch of the imagination. I am disappointed in him, and this novella in particular.



Talia

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2682
  • Muahahahaha
Reply #44 on: September 19, 2011, 08:13:39 PM
Hi everyone.

I've moved all the comments on the intro/the Mormon stuff to this thread.. Any further comments on on that subject can go there (and remember please, please be nice).

Thanks!



olivaw

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
Reply #45 on: September 20, 2011, 01:43:50 AM
The use of the second person makes me think more of the Qu'ran, which contains a great deal in the imperative mode, rather than the Bible (which is presumably what the Jacobean grammar is meant to suggest)
While the protagonist is a Christian, and the Second Coming is a Christian doctrine, most of the story is broad enough that it could be aimed at Islam, or Judaism, or any number of similar religions.
Equal opportunities blasphemy.  :D



Calculating...

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 56
  • Too much knowledge never makes for simple decision
Reply #46 on: September 20, 2011, 09:25:34 PM
So I'm taking time out of my Medieval Christian Thought class to comment on this story ( which I just giggle at the ridiculousness of it) and I have to say I loved this story. It was great watching the angels who were stuck in the "old world" ideas of religion i.e. angel of the lord says jump, subject says how high, regardless of previous religious beliefs, watching them come face to face with modern day thought. Also, LOVE Laurice White, I loved her after Saints and I think I love her even more now. I definitely think she brought something to this story that other readers just could not. I had so much fun with this story, it was just the laugh I needed. Loved it.

I don't know who you are or where you came from, but from now on you'll do as I tell you, okay?


Listener

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • I place things in locations which later elude me.
    • Various and Sundry Items of Interest
Reply #47 on: September 21, 2011, 03:19:26 PM
This was a very funny, enjoyable story. The humor of writing it as a Biblical-style* parable definitely set it apart.

I idly wonder if the story was first written straight, and then thees and thous were added in editing.

* I guess. I've never read the thing.

"Farts are a hug you can smell." -Wil Wheaton

Blog || Quote Blog ||  Written and Audio Work || Twitter: @listener42


Kaa

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 620
  • Trusst in me, jusst in me.
    • WriteWright
Reply #48 on: September 21, 2011, 03:58:34 PM
Dave's rant: HELL yes. A thousand times yes.

Favorite line: Thou cusseth out the Angel of the Lord.

Best. Podcastle. Story. Yet. Catapulted over all the rest to be my favorite. Laurice White's narration really did it for me (again).

It's seldom that I drive on the traffic-laden streets of Atlanta cackling aloud in my car, no doubt causing other drivers to shy away from me if they notice. The Squonk stories did it, a few others did it...and this one.

Thou cusseth out the Angel of the Lord, indeed. :)

I invent imaginary people and make them have conversations in my head. I also write.

About writing || About Atheism and Skepticism (mostly) || About Everything Else


ElectricPaladin

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1005
  • Holy Robot
    • Burning Zeppelin Experience
Reply #49 on: September 21, 2011, 04:00:39 PM
It was great watching the angels who were stuck in the "old world" ideas of religion i.e. angel of the lord says jump, subject says how high...

I'm glad you didn't say "old testament." The characters in the Hebrew bible did a lot of arguing with God and the angels. As a Jew, perhaps that's part of why I loved this story so much. The main character reminded me of early Abraham.

Captain of the Burning Zeppelin Experience.

Help my kids get the educational supplies they need at my Donor's Choose page.