Author Topic: On Clarion Workshops  (Read 7268 times)

Gamercow

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on: January 26, 2012, 03:53:36 PM
I'd like to get others' opinions on how they react to authors being a Clarion West graduate.  There are some authors who mention it every chance they can, there are others who mention it only in their bio, and there are still others who do not mention it at all. 

Personally, not being a writer, I don't know how much value to put into the fact that someone's graduated from a writing workshop.  I gather that it is a very exclusive workshop, and only people with a significant amount of money and 6 weeks to devote to the workshop can go to it.  Are there any statistics on application/acceptance ratios?  Acceptance/graduation ratios?  If you are a publisher/editor, do you give extra weight to a work coming from a person who has graduated Clarion West?  As a reader, does it matter to you?  Or is it, for lack of a better phrase, author wank?

The reason I ask is that as an IT professional, we have certifications that have different amounts of cache in the business, most significantly A+ hardware certification, Microsoft certification, and Cisco certification.  During the tech boom in the late 90s, there was a glut of people trying to get into IT, and employers were starting to use certifications as a guideline to hiring, and some employers even started "requiring" certifications to even be considered.   Then there came things called Boot Camps, in which a person can pay several thousand dollars and go to class 8-10 hours a day for 2-8 weeks, and get crammed full of IT information, but specifically, information to pass the certification tests.  This resulted in "Paper MCSEs", people who have the certification, but zero talent.  I despise paper MCSEs, because they constantly proclaim their qualifications, but those qualifications are based on graduating from a program with the only goal of getting people to pass the tests, and for several years, were selected for jobs over many more talented IT professionals who didn't have the time and/or money to get certified. 

I mention IT certification because I roll my eyes whenever anyone in the business mentions their certifications, and I know a lot of my reaction to Clarion West graduates is tainted by this past.  The more someone mentions being a Clarion West graduate, the more likely I will go into their work with a cynical mindest, and the less likely I will enjoy the work itself.  If it is someone who only mentions it in their bio once, I only have a slight twinge of eye rolling, but if it is someone who has either mentioned it several times on the forums, or references it several times in their bio, that eye rolling becomes teenage-level spinning, and may skip their work altogether.

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eytanz

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Reply #1 on: January 26, 2012, 04:08:36 PM
Personally, I don't really have any real cynicism about cerftification, but I also don't see why I'm supposed to care about them when it comes to authors. I've never been able to figure out why I should care if an author is a Clarion West graduate or not, and I don't understand why the podcast hosts inevitably bother pointing it out.

Certainly, when I'm reading slush, it's not something I care about one way or another.



Umbrageofsnow

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Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 07:12:18 PM
Fiction ought to be judged on merit alone.  Technical writing skill, good ideas/dialogue/plot, etc.  We all have some biases in the form of favorite themes or settings or types of characters.  But I don't think the writing workshop stuff is meant to be taken that way.  Some authors certainly brag about it, and this seems silly, but I see it as the same level of information as where an author grew up or where he went to college.

I imagine someone who went to Clarion West gets the same little thrill out of knowing their favorite other author went to the workshop as I got from learning that Jeffrey R. DeRego is from a town I know in my home state, or learning that I could run into Tim Pratt at the grocery store.

I think it is more that level of some readers may identify with the author because of a common experience, in this case a workshop, but I wouldn't think it would be different from which college they went to or what city they are from.  It is a level of potentially interesting bio for some subset of readers/listeners.

I think more writers brag about it because they see it as prestigious.  Like how politicians and lawyers love to brag about whether they went to Yale or whatever.

I just think it is funny no one ever seems to brag about teaching Clarion.  Or brags about any other workshops.  I'm actually a bit more confused now that I think about this, just not as annoyed.



Devoted135

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Reply #3 on: January 27, 2012, 03:23:15 PM
I gather that it is a very exclusive workshop, and only people with a significant amount of money and 6 weeks to devote to the workshop can go to it.

I have no idea about your other questions, but having had an unemployed friend with a very tight budget attend Clarion West summer 2011, this is not the impression that I have at all. Well, at least not the "it's for rich people" vibe that I get from your phrasing. (feel free to correct me if that's not what you meant to convey)

My impression is that it's the adult writer's equivalent of a really intense summer camp that teenagers used to frame their whole lives around. Maybe not everyone has this point of reference but I had friends who would go to the same camp every summer, and when they got too old they would be counselors at that camp every summer... It would get to the point where they felt like their life at camp was the only "real" part of their life and everything else was just time waiting to get to camp... the people at camp were the only ones who truly understood them... stuff like that.

So my reaction when I hear that in a bio is that they must have had a really great time there and feel like they grew as an author while they were there. Much like if I had a bio I would definitely mention how I interned at the NIH for 8 weeks one summer, even though what I'm doing now really has nothing to do with that.



DKT

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Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 05:05:16 PM
Yeah, it's prestige. Clarion, I think, is best viewed as an alma-mater. Summer/Boot Camp works too, but I think it's better compared to an MFA-level course at a well-known university. People who are able to get in and finish are very proud of their accomplishment, as they should be. (Devoted135 is correct that it's not an exclusive club. They do fundraisers/write-a-thons every year for financial aid scholarships, etc. I don't know the acceptance numbers, but they don't just let anybody in. I have friends who have been turned down. You have to have some writing-chops.)

I've never been to Clarion, though I did attend Viable Paradise. Clarion sounds awesome if you can take six weeks off from you life (family, job, etc.) and for me, taking one week off from my life was difficult enough. That said, if a writer can go to Clarion, I highly encourage it. Clarion students are instructed by some of the best writers in the business, and they generally tend to go on to sell stories to the top-paying magazines in the genre, and a pretty good amount go on to publish novels, etc. If you want instruction in writing, I'm not sure you can do much better than Clarion.

We mention it at PodCastle because typically, it's part of the bio the authors send to us, along with where else they've been published, etc.

Additionally, I've heard agents and editors at publishing houses say that doing Clarion is something they want mentioned in cover letters, the same as they'd like to hear about your publication history (pro or semi-pro magazines). I'm not sure how much stock those agents and editors put in VP alumni - not much I'd guess. It's far less prestigious.

FWIW, people are pretty proud to have been instructors at Clarion, too - Gaiman, Scalzi, GRRM, the VanderMeers, Cory Doctorow, just to name a few. If you read their blogs or interviews, you'll see them talk about it. But I suspect when you're at the Jedi Master level, well, you'd rather just point people to what books they can buy from you.

If you want to view a selected list of "distinguished" almuni and instructors, you can peruse that here.


kibitzer

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Reply #5 on: January 28, 2012, 05:50:30 AM
On a tangential note +1 to the value of "paper MCSE" style of IT qualifications (i.e. very little). I come from the Java side of the street and you see a similar thing with Oracle et al. Sometimes the certifications are pretty good but these days people mainly crib an "answer sheet" from somewhere -- they pass the test but know little about the subject. Pointless.


kibitzer

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Reply #6 on: January 28, 2012, 06:01:35 AM
Actually now that I think about it, there's a strange parallel between writing and programming (in my mind at least).

I've always seen programming as part engineering and part craft. To break programming down into purely an engineering discipline is to miss at least half the... hmmm... beauty of coding. Now in a sense, anyone can code as it just takes logical thinking. But those who can code well do so by doing, by learning their craft, by experience. That experience comes from reading about programming, listening to others, debating arts and techniques with them, exploring new avenues all the time. Those kind of things can immeasurably improve your coding and courses can help. The best courses are given by those who know and love the craft.

It seems to me writing is similar in that anyone can put words on a page. But those who do it well are the ones who continually write and strive to be better. They do so by writing, reading other authors, reading about the craft itself, listening to others, etc etc. Clarion seems to have a rep for getting really top authors to teach the craft and is therefore a sought-after workshop. Kind of like the difference between taking a class at your local polytech and somewhere guaranteed to have top teachers. Not that your local polytech class is necessarily rubbish but it depends on who runs the course -- might be good, might not.

Does this make sense? I'd have to mull this over a bit more to be clearer.


hautdesert

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Reply #7 on: February 26, 2012, 12:40:16 AM
I totally understand the thing about paper certifications, but honestly Clarion/Clarion West isn't a paper certification.

You don't get in just because you have the money.  You send in a submission packet with a certain amount of writing (this varies between plain Clarion and CW but they're both very, very similar to apply to) and in CWs case, an "introduce yourself" kind of bio. They've got readers who evaluate all the applications in what is essentially a slush pile, and they choose who to accept based on those submissions. And in the case of CW, there are scholarships available, as DKT mentions. I assume there are some for Clarion. I applied to both, the year I went, and was accepted to both, but chose CW, so I don't really have a lot of information about how they work.  Yeah, it's a hardship to take six weeks off, and even with financial aid not everyone's going to be able to go.  But it was amazing.  There's really nothing quite like having Connie Willis or Michael Swanwick crit your stories.  It was a huge turning point for me, as a writer, and I wrote my first sale there, for my week six story.  That would have been "Hesperia and Glory," in fact.

I'm not sure how Clarion handles it, but I know that Clarion West asks us to say in our bios that we're graduates--only asks.  There isn't any kind of penalty or complaint if we don't.  I do.  Not to brag, but to raise awareness of CW.  A lot of people think Clarion and Clarion West are the same, when they're actually run by two entirely different organizations.  And of course, it's to CW's benefit if more writers know about the workshop and apply, because the bigger the pool of applications, the more likely they are to find a great bunch of people for that year's class.  So it's mostly a visibility thing.

Just so you know what goes on, there are 18 students each year.  I'm not sure of the exact size of a Clarion class, but I think it's pretty close.  Every week you're expected to turn in a story.  Every weekday we had class from nine to noon--though often we went till one.  Class consisted of whatever the week's instructor wanted to talk about, but  mostly it was spent critiquing three or four of the stories turned in that week.  After class, we'd pick up the stories for the next day, eat lunch, and then it was free time!  Although in that free time we had to read and crit all those stories, and find time to write.  We also got an hour one-on-one with that week's instructor.  Even without the awesome writers (and in week five, an editor) who taught each week, critting three or four stories a day while also writing your own story--for six weeks straight--is kind of a mindbending experience.  I'm told some folks come out of it unable to write another word for a couple of years.  Certainly some number of graduates discover they don't really want to be writers as badly as maybe they thought. But IMO, you're hearing over and over that this or that writer went to one of the Clarions because they only accept people with a certain level of promise to begin with, and the very intense workshop experience definitely improves your work.  It's hardly a surprise if a lot of the people who go through that are selling fiction.

That said, of course no one needs to go to Clarion or CW to be awesome or sell.  Still, if you can do it, it's really awesome.



danooli

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Reply #8 on: February 26, 2012, 01:05:12 PM
I've noticed that I typically do tend to really enjoy works from Clarion graduates.

Just sayin'.



Gamercow

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Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 04:58:22 PM
I totally understand the thing about paper certifications, but honestly Clarion/Clarion West isn't a paper certification.
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That said, of course no one needs to go to Clarion or CW to be awesome or sell.  Still, if you can do it, it's really awesome.

Thanks for the very insightful information!  This is really what I wanted to know, and I appreciate it.  I'll work to drop my ingrained initial reaction to hearing someone is a CW graduate, because when it comes down to brass tacks, I've both liked and disliked works from CW graduates so therefore it has no real bearing.

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