First off, Nikki/Jessica is the most underveloped character in the whole show. Her character is changing, but it's a snails pace considering the rest of the cast, male and female. I'll believe claims of her "character development" when I see it on the show.
I disagree. First, "most underdeveloped" is a bit thin when you look at Haitian Guy, Ted the Nuclear Guy, DL, their kid Micah, or even Isaac (the painter with exactly one defining trait -- drug addiction -- and apparently a highly successful comic that he
never actually works on and that doesn't even get mentioned after Hiro shows up. Lots of potential to his character, but what the hell does he
do besides paint the scene coming up after the commercial break?)
Second, I'm not really a fan of considering them one character, but let's grant it here for brevity. Let's look at their arc:
- When we first fade in on Niki, she's got a shit job doing online porn, to pay the bills for Micah's school (which we quickly learn was wasted money). Then she has to run from it. If her character didn't develop, we'd still be thinking of Niki as "the online porn actress," right? Sixteen episodes in, does it even cross your mind that she was doing that?
- She gets interrupted at her work, and things get bloody. We learn that her alter ego is a stone cold killer who likes being in charge, is driven largely by hate, and doesn't let anyone stop her. Especially not Niki. Would you grant that?
- Later we find out where Jessica came from. It's pretty much their dad's fault. Jessica, the stone cold killer, has a pretty good reason to hate her dad. Granted?
- Niki and Jessica meet their dad soon after. Jessica scares the hell out of him, but lets him live. Do you think that signifies any sort of character depth? Something a little more developed than "stone cold killer?" I do.
- Later, Jessica takes completely over from Niki and spends considerable time plotting to kill DL to get Micah back. But when it comes time, just because Micah fell and skinned his knee or somesuch, she suddenly turns mellow and lets Niki take over again. Hell, she lets Niki get them both put in jail. Willingly. Does that show any depth?
- Niki herself shows considerable resolve, and occasional cleverness, in fighting Jessica. Her motives by the end are clearly more than just "Got to protect Micah." Jessica's activities have changed her priorities considerably, and she's had to develop a backbone to match Jessica's. Do you agree or disagree?
There's still more to come with both of them, obviously, but I think they've both shown considerable change since the beginning. Neither of them has had a true reversal, but they aren't simple. I think there's a lot going on there.
I feel it nessary to go back to the numbers for this Nikki/Jessica has killed: 3 of DL's gang members, 5 of Linderman's thugs, and Aron Malskey. 9 total, but only one that we get a name of. It should also be noticed that most of the violence she inflicts is ofscreen.
First, I think you're forgetting about the poker party. The three DL cohorts were dead before the show even started. Of Linderman's thugs, she took two out in Episode 1, she took the diamond merchant out a couple episodes ago (who did have "character moments" if you want to go there), and I'm assuming you're counting the money launderer too. But weren't there more than two people at the poker game?
Second, I suspect that at least a lot of that 'offscreen' factor is because the show comes on in prime time, and she has this tendency to spray the entire room with blood. Would her character be more developed, in your opinion, if we
saw her eviscerating people?
Also, do not tell me that Heidi Petrelli, the WIFE of a main character whose paralysis causes him such guilt that it becomes a driving force in all his decisions--we know this, there's been at least 2 scenes where they talk about it--has never had "character moments." Now, I wish she was more than Nathan's Guilt On Wheels, but she's still a character, dammint!
Yeah, that's fair. She sure doesn't get any time from Nathan, which is probably why I wasn't thinking much about her, but on consideration that's really the
point. It's one of the ways he's an asshole.
Actually, I count the attempted rapist as a character, one of the men who are still alive in HEROES. Granted, he's brainwashed and injured, but he's still alive, which was my point.
What was your point? Women are victims if they're "killed, raped or hurt," but ramming a guy into a wall at high speed in his car (I'd argue that was attempted murder) and then
destroying his psyche only counts if he dies, too?
I'm not saying he didn't deserve it. Heck, I think the attempted rape is probably overshadowing the fact that he
also committed second degree murder -- or would have if Claire hadn't had superpowers. Rape is bad. Impaling women on spikes is pretty much worse. But then the guy suffered very severe punishment, about as severe as you can get
without dying -- and he did it to develop Claire's character.
Agree or disagree?
--so that's why Claire's attempted rape cocks an eyebrow. There are other ways for her to gain strength other than, you know, getting raped or pregnant.
True. And she's had a bunch of those, too. You make a good point about cop shows -- I think the reason it doesn't bug me here in Heroes is because it isn't manifesting as a pattern. It happened to Claire, she kicked the guy's ass (then her father and Haitian Guy kicked his mind), we move on. No one else is getting raped or anything. (Though I do have to speculate on what Eden might have gotten up to in her Bad Girl days. I wouldn't be surprised if she raped a bunch of men.)
Here's the thing, Steve. Fathers in HEROES are often saintly, loving people.
Yeah. Niki's and Jessica's dad, the one who molested and killed Jessica? Saint. Hiro's dad, who doesn't give a shit what Hiro wants as long as Hiro follows orders? Saint. Claire's dad, who cares so much he wipes the brains of his entire family regularly? Saint.
Who exactly were you
thinking of? Hell, the only genuinely good father I can think of would be Simone's. And he died after his "character moment," so let's tally him up in the other column, right?
Even Claire's dad clearly loves her, even if he's a little evil, and DL does the best he can. Mothers, however, are distant at best (both of Clarie's moms, Nikki), or, in the case of Angela, harridans. Is Angela a sexist character by herself? No. Is she within the show proper? Yes. Show me a good mother on the show, and I'll reconsider.
Niki was
not a distant mother. Niki worked her ass off in a degrading job
just to keep Micah in a private school. She spent all of her money on Micah and then tried to come up with more. Virtually everything Niki has done on the show (and a lot of things Jessica has done) has been for Micah's sake. Including trying to get herself a nice long prison sentence. Niki hasn't exactly been a highly
available mother, mostly because Jessica has a very warped sense of "taking care of Micah," and she made bad decisions, but what evidence do you put forward to suggest that she's distant (which I interpret to mean not emotionally involved)?
Likewise, Claire's adopted mom. She took sincere interest in Claire's schooling and social life. She baked for Claire's cheerleading fundraiser. She kept tabs on Claire's school attendance, and yelled at Claire when (she believed) Claire was ditching. Yeah, she was kind of a flake, but before she got brain-fried, what more do you think she
should have done to be a good mother to Claire? What attributes was she missing? What's her motherly weakness?
And Angela? By the time the show opens she's a mother to
two grown men. I don't think she's defined by motherhood here so much as matriarchy -- she's the Joan Collins character from
Dynasty. We have no idea what she was like when she actually had to raise these two kids, though the fact that they're still talking to her -- regularly and with fondness -- indicates that she probably didn't suck at it.
Claire's
biological mom is a bad mom. I'll give you that one for sure. Not as bad as, say, Niki's and Jessica's dad was a bad dad, but she sure didn't put any team spirit into it.
Do you continue to maintain that any of the other mothers are bad mothers? I don't think there's a second bad mother in this show.
I would argue it's the difference between being emotially invested in a character and not being emotionally invested. Or even easier, if they don't even have names, we, like the writers obviously did, can dismiss them.
So we can dismiss the Haitian guy? Or Claire's dad in the first three or four episodes, when he was just Glasses Man? (Actually, we still don't know his
first name. So I guess we can half-dismiss him now.)
Well, let's see. Out of my list of 20 female characters, we've shortened it down to 7 dead, one raped, one beaten, one pregnant (who also cheated), one needing her brother's help, one is a coma, and one emblamic of disturbing dipiction of mothers in general.
I'm not trying to say that women have it easy in this show. I do, however, think that it's possible that you may have come the show with a bias to
believe that it was sexist, and are therefore filtering the show through that perceptual filter. (Of course you could counter that you think I came to the show with a bias to believe it
isn't, and I couldn't disprove that.)
And yeah, there are some definite clichés here, both for the male and female characters. Perhaps there
are more clichés for the women. (I really don't want to discount how much Simone's death annoyed me.) But there's also a lot of complexity here, and the most powerful and interesting characters on the show include both men and women, and so do the victims.
I'm not saying there's none of it, but I don't think the "women in refrigerators" complex you mention is as clear here as you claim it is. I think it's a coed refrigerator. You have at least enough men in there to fill up, say, the freezer.
And let's not forget, there's still a fair distance to go before the city blows up.