Author Topic: Why are donations to EP watered down by 66% to support two non-SF podcasts?  (Read 6997 times)

El Barto

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
I've been wondering this for a while and thought I'd post the question/comment now in case others are wondering it as well.

I donate to support my favorite podcasts such as The Drabblecast and Starship Sofa, and I listen to Escape Pod regularly.  However, I do not donate here because I am not a fan of horror or fantasy and the current (long term) policy here seems to be that if you want to donate $33 to support Escape Pod you are required to also donate $33 to Pseudopod and another $33 to Podcastle because all donations are pooled. 

The narrators here say this as though it is a good thing but for me it is not.  I love great science fiction and want my donations to go to buy more great stories and to support more great production values -- of the stories that I listen to.

Perhaps at some point the management could mention this issue on the air and/or put up a survey to ask whether this bothers anyone else.

It really should not be difficult to separate donations especially since Escape Artists is not set up as a 501(c)(3) to make donations tax-deductible.




eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
So, if you were a big fan of superhero movies, you'd be upset when you go to see the Avengers because the ticket money goes to a company, Disney,  that also produces animated movies aimed at Children? When you buy a Pepsi, do you worry that some of the money spent on the Pepsi will go to produce 7-UP?

Escape Artists is one company, that has three products, each of which a podcast. You're not donating to the products, you're donating to the company. You're asking the company to create a more complicated payment structure, which will mean more overhead and hassle for them, which will hurt all three of its podcasts.

Beyond the basic oddness of your request, I'm wondering why you assume the money is divided equally between the three podcasts. EP pays the most, per story, of the three podcasts. Since paying authors is the primary expense, that means that EP must have the largest operating budget of the three (note - I have no real knowledge of the budgets, I'm just inferring from publicly available information). And also, just like part of every dollar donated to Escape Pod goes to Podcastle and Pseudopod, part of every dollar donated to Podcastle and Pseudopod goes to Escape Pod as well. And since EP gets the largest chunk of each dollar, that means that the EP podcast benefits more from each dollar donated to Podcastle than Podcastle does. So it's not at all clear that if donations were dedicated to individual podcasts that EP would benefit from that.



Fenrix

  • Curmudgeonly Co-Editor of PseudoPod
  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
  • I always lock the door when I creep by daylight.
I know they've looked into forming a 501c3 before, and my understanding is there's a large capital investment to make that happen. Add to that all the legal hoops to jump through, and the determination was that the cost to benefit was not there.

While I think it is laudable to donate to support other podcasts, I think it is worth some soul searching to consider why you support the two you mentioned and consider whether or not it is worthy to apply some of those reasons to donate to EA. Drabblecast is a fantastic product, but seems to me to skew more towards weird fiction than pure SF. One month a year you're supporting their love of Lovecraft. It also supports things like Let Us Praise Awesome Dinosaurs, which awesome, is not SF. SSS does not pay authors, so you're helping to cover server costs and other things rather than supporting the folks who provide the stories. What do you want your donations to go to?

As for PseudoPod, check out the thread "PseudoPod Stories for EscapePod Listeners" and see if there's value in supporting the organization as a whole. In the spec fic genre, there's a decent amount of crossover at the edges of the genres. I should probably get around to making a thread for PodCastle Stories for EscapePod Listeners.

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


El Barto

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Those are interesting and helpful points, thank you.   

There is, of course, a fundamental difference between buying a soda and donating to support and encourage a very specific art form.   The former is a commercial transaction.  If I want the soda I pay the price and I have no say over what the company does with my money.  It gets my money because they offer something for sale at a price that I am willing to pay.

By characterizing my question as odd you are suggesting that I'm likely unique in my perspective.  If you are correct then this should be a non-issue.  However, if there is a good chunk of other listeners who would consider donating, but are put off by the idea of their donations being watered down, then perhaps the issue is worth a closer look. 

The reason I posted my question in the first place was to share my perspective with the good folks who run Escape Pod and signal to them what is keeping me in particular from donating to support Escape Pod.  Regardless of whether they choose to take any action in response, they likely at least appreciate the information.   

If I was involved with the management here, I'd be quite interested to know why various people do and do not donate and whether there are any small changes that could be made to encourage more donations. 

It would be interesting to know what percentage of listeners do donate.

I would guesstimate that 95% of Escape Pod listeners do not donate and that Escape Pod would love to know exactly why.




El Barto

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
I know they've looked into forming a 501c3 before, and my understanding is there's a large capital investment to make that happen. Add to that all the legal hoops to jump through, and the determination was that the cost to benefit was not there.

While I think it is laudable to donate to support other podcasts, I think it is worth some soul searching to consider why you support the two you mentioned and consider whether or not it is worthy to apply some of those reasons to donate to EA. Drabblecast is a fantastic product, but seems to me to skew more towards weird fiction than pure SF. One month a year you're supporting their love of Lovecraft. It also supports things like Let Us Praise Awesome Dinosaurs, which awesome, is not SF. SSS does not pay authors, so you're helping to cover server costs and other things rather than supporting the folks who provide the stories. What do you want your donations to go to?

As for PseudoPod, check out the thread "PseudoPod Stories for EscapePod Listeners" and see if there's value in supporting the organization as a whole. In the spec fic genre, there's a decent amount of crossover at the edges of the genres. I should probably get around to making a thread for PodCastle Stories for EscapePod Listeners.

In addition to loving "pure" science fiction, I also love weird fiction.  The Drabblecast is easily my favorite podcast, and I rather enjoy their once-a-year dip into the dark waters of Lovecraft.  I also love their production values, music and sound effects.  And the Drabbles.  And Norm.

But, your point is well taken, and I will check out the PseudoPod thread as well.

And as for the 501(c)(3) issue, the fact that Escape Artists is not a 501(c)(3) actually makes it much easier for them to segregate funds if they want to.  (If they were already a 501(c)(3) it would be a ton of work to create two additional ones just to keep funds separate between the three podcasts.)

Lastly, I will say that I don't have any idea how much Escape Artists collects per year in donations, but if management thinks that becoming a 501(c)(3) would increase donations substantially (by making them tax deductible), I would be glad to talk about helping with that process.  I run a large 501(c)(3) and previously offered to Steve by email to help get all the legal work done for free.






eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
By characterizing my question as odd you are suggesting that I'm likely unique in my perspective.

No. What I am saying is that it seems strange to me. A lot of things seem strange to me that are accepted by large groups of people.

Quote
If you are correct then this should be a non-issue.  However, if there is a good chunk of other listeners who would consider donating, but are put off by the idea of their donations being watered down, then perhaps the issue is worth a closer look.  

That may be the case, but it's been raised before, and that didn't seem to be the case then. There have been people who have expressed a preference to deciding which podcasts their money would go towards, but very few people (I don't actually remember any before you, but I'm not willing to bet I didn't forget anyone) who actually said it's something that's stopping them from donating.

Quote
The reason I posted my question in the first place was to share my perspective with the good folks who run Escape Pod and signal to them what is keeping me in particular from donating to support Escape Pod.  Regardless of whether they choose to take any action in response, they likely at least appreciate the information.    

I agree with you on this point.

Quote
If I was involved with the management here, I'd be quite interested to know why various people do and do not donate and whether there are any small changes that could be made to encourage more donations.  

True. But note that just as there may be more people like you who find it difficult to accept that their donation would go towards podcasts they don't listen to, there may be others who will wish to donate to all three podcasts and would prefer not to have the hassle of having to think themselves about how to divide their money. I know I'm in that group. I'm not saying that I will stop my monthly donation if it ends up being split, but it would bug me a little. And for that matter, splitting the donation means more money goes to pay Paypal overheads rather than any of the three podcasts.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 05:42:38 PM by eytanz »



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
One more thought:

Except for paying authors, most of the costs of the three podcasts are shared. The server costs, in particular, are probably the next largest (or even the largest) expense and all three podcasts are hosted on the same server. So, coupled with the fact that EP pays its authors more, I do think that your claim that the donations are watered down by 66% is pretty debatable.



El Barto

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
One more thought:

Except for paying authors, most of the costs of the three podcasts are shared. The server costs, in particular, are probably the next largest (or even the largest) expense and all three podcasts are hosted on the same server. So, coupled with the fact that EP pays its authors more, I do think that your claim that the donations are watered down by 66% is pretty debatable.

That's a good point.  Let's call my 66% number a very rough guess and not a claim, because all I know is what they say on air.





matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
It's simple, donations support the company. The company happens to have three productions. If the company gets no donations, it will have no productions. If you want to support the good work done by the company, then donate. If you think having other interests makes EP 2/3 evil, then don't donate.

Personally, there are a staggering number of genres I couldn't care less about, but Escape Artists could start a show about almost anything not overtly evil (like a KKK-Fiction 'Cast or a Child Torture Weekly Feature) and I would still be proud to support a company made up of good people doing good work for next to nothing.



Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
It might help if you thought of it more like a purchase; Escape Artists IS offering you a product that you consume, and a fairly unique one at that.  (Not that there aren't other SF venues, but there aren't any other Escape Pods.)  The difference is that we just go ahead and let you have the product when you want it, and we never force you to pay if you don't want to. 

Purchase isn't even the right frame, either, really.  Perhaps something more like a social obligation.  We do a nice thing for our listeners and trust in their sense of fairness to do something nice back.  If the listeners withhold their funds, well, then we eventually will have to stop doing nice things (just because we run out of money ourselves.)  If you don't like some of the offerings you get from Escape Artists, well, I guess you can donate less if that's the way you want to approach it.

This idea that you, by donating, are somehow shaping the state of art is slightly misguided.  Artists tend to make art regardless of whether they get paid; Escape Pod existed first and foremost as a labor of love, and the fact that its become self-sustaining is borderline miraculous (and many thanks to those who do donate!)  However, most of us would have been doing this or something similar regardless of whether the money was coming in.  It's a situation where, if you like what you got, you give something back, not a situation where you give to request a particular outcome, if that makes sense.



Anarkey

  • Meen Pie
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 703
  • ...depends a good deal on where you want to get to
There's also a way in which spinning off the two other Podcasts actually made room for MORE science fiction on Escape Pod, since Escape Pod used to run stories in all the SF/F/H genres.  So whereas, in the olden days, you might get two SF stories a month, and then maybe one horror and one fantasy (not that it was plotted out like that, or scheduled like that, but just as a rough example), now you get all four (or five if it's a month with five pub dates) as science fiction.  So there's a way in which the other two podcasts have UNwatered down EP's offerings (except during Hugo month, natch).  PC came on board with a backlog of fantasy stories which had been purchased for EP but which people who have no interest in fantasy didn't ever have in their feed because they didn't subscribe to PC. 

On the whole, I think people are happy to have their genres parceled out instead of lumped together, although it's a position that I find a little baffling myself, if only because I enjoy a little bit of everything.

Winner Nash's 1000th member betting pool + Thaurismunths' Free Rice Contest!


Scatcatpdx

  • Guest
Is there a way to  designate donation only to Escape Pod?



matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Is there a way to  designate donation only to Escape Pod?
Escape Artists owns Escape Pod. Hit "donate" and soak in more good Karma for every dollar you put in.



Fenrix

  • Curmudgeonly Co-Editor of PseudoPod
  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
  • I always lock the door when I creep by daylight.
I really enjoy PseudoPod and PodCastle. EscapePod is fun, but I'm not as energetic about it. I donate every year to EA, even though a big chunk goes to support EscapePod. I support the idea of what they're doing, so I have no remorse that some of my donation goes over there.

To look at it another way, my contribution to EscapePod is offsetting your contribution to PseudoPod. A rising tide raises all ships.

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


kibitzer

  • Purveyor of Unsolicited Opinions
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2228
  • Kibitzer: A meddler who offers unwanted advice
THere was talk at one stage of being able to designate to which 'cast you wished to direct your funds. But it's never come off.


abouttime

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Donors to 501c3 charities may restrict their donations for certain uses.  The charities may accept or reject said donations and the obligated uses.  Since EA isn't a charity it is under no legal obligation to use donations made to EP for EP.   My understanding is that it is a LLC or some type of small business.  In that case donations go to the company to use and manage as best they see fit.  If you enjoy the Escape Pod, then by all means donate to EA to support Escape Pod.  They pay authors, they pay servers, they pay administrative fees.  I'm sure some...or maybe even quite a bit of this came out of their own pockets.  If you want to support them, give a donation and trust them.  If you don't trust them, don't donate and hope someone else does so you can keep enjoying the podcasts.



matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
The bottom line is that there is no "Just EP" or "Just PP" or "Just PC". There is EA, and without that, there is none.



Wilson Fowlie

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1475
    • The Maple Leaf Singers
One point that I haven't seen addressed here (so either I missed it, in which case I apologize for the duplicate content, or it was implied rather than explicitly stated, in which case I hereby do so) is this:

By not donating to Escape Artists because you only want to support Escape Pod and not Pseudopod or Podcastle, you aren't supporting Escape Pod at all. I don't see the logic. It's like not accepting a job because you'll pay taxes, even though you still end up with more money than you would have.

Donating to Escape Artists supports Escape Pod, and not donating doesn't support Escape Pod. You don't have to like supporting something you don't listen to, but things aren't likely to change, so by not supporting the other two, you are not supporting Escape Pod.

I would guesstimate that 95% of Escape Pod listeners do not donate and that Escape Pod would love to know exactly why.

I suspect that one reason is why a lot of donations aren't made: it's just not easy enough. This isn't EA's fault - they have to work within the lame, invasive infrastructure that the web provides.

When someone on the web makes it as easy - and private - to make donations as pulling a fiver out of yer pocket and handing it over, more donations will be made. (Maybe as much as 10%!)

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham