EP359: Chasers

[tpi]

I am not one to nit pick on the science; I just want a good story not a physics lesson. This was not a good story. 

The story can never be good, if the physics in it are as bad as in this tale.

[Max e^{i pi}]

I am not one to nit pick on the science; I just want a good story not a physics lesson. This was not a good story.  

The story can never be good, if the physics in it are as bad as in this tale.

At the risk of derailing the thread...
Once I started taking college courses in physics, my enjoyment of Scifi (and to some extent, fantasy) has changed. Suddenly it became so much harder to suspend my sense of disbelief. While I used to enjoy Star Trek for the cool tech, now I watch it when I need something campy.
Also, I got kicked out of a movie theater for having an understanding of physics. I got dragged by my friend to watch the last Harry Potter movie, and in that one scene SPOILER ALERT where they are breaking into Gringots and fall down really far and Hermione does a spell and they don't hit the ground but stop an inch above it SPOILER ALERT I cringed and yelled out loud "PHYSICS!". Because stopping just above the ground is no better than being stopped by the ground. Your inertia is still there, and all that potential energy needs to go somewhere. Usually towards turning a human body into Jell-O.
Anyway, science fiction isn't about bad science, it's about good writing. And in my opinion, good writing comes from good research, so that you can get the science right.

[Dem]

I'm kinda with you there, Max, although I'm spared the agonies of enduring bad physics because I don't know that much (the Potter incident passed me by, but I had that in the fantasy category, so it wouldn't have mattered). For me, as a psychologist, it's integrity of behaviour I need, which is why this story had me twitching. So you're right - having too much knowledge can scupper your enjoyment of fiction unless the author either knows as much or can convince you of that. And Star Trek? Well, the classic Roddenberry response to the question 'How do the inertial dampers work?' applies in spades - 'Very well, thank you!'

[chemistryguy]

At the risk of derailing the thread...

The train has left the tracks.

I haven't established how many posters here are writers yet, but there seem to be quite a few.  I'm going to speculate a bit and say that a writer's experience of this story probably differs from those who don't write for a living (or at least those who write regularly).

I can understand and appreciate the level of research that must go into writing a story, but I can also appreciate a complete departure of these ideals.  The job of Chasers is to be completely camp, and it does it very well.  It was an easy listen, so the doubting parts of my mind shut down without my asking them to do so.

On the other hand, I did question the physics behind Episode 357 - Connoisseurs of the Eccentric.  I was unsatisfied with the explanations, most likely because the story did take itself seriously.

[Unblinking]

I am not one to nit pick on the science; I just want a good story not a physics lesson. This was not a good story. 

The story can never be good, if the physics in it are as bad as in this tale.

It really depends on what kind of story you're looking for.  I don't think this could ever be an Analog story, because Analog has cultivated an audience that wants the scientific details right.  For me, I recognized that the details of the speed especially didn't make scientific sense, but I didn't particularly care about that, while the behavior of the ship's captain blabbing I found hard to believe.

[Unblinking]

Usually towards turning a human body into Jell-O.

Although I'm aware of the physics problems in that moment of the Harry Potter movie, I didn't consider them problematic because it's magic.  If I were crafting a spell that would stop me from falling, then I would find a way to apply inertia dampening as well, so why not build it in?

For a discussion of this kind of thing, I highly recommend The Physics of Superheroes by James Kakalios.  He uses superheroes to discuss a variety of physics concepts.  For each hero he gives them one free implausibility pass (i.e. Cyclops can project force beams from his eyes), and then discusses further implications of it (i.e. that if Cyclops has an ordinary spine he would snap his own neck the first time he used his force beams).  Among other things, he does discuss the inertia problem of rescuing falling people, an oft botched detail in superhero stories--and at least one example of when it was done right (Spider-Man, surprisingly, though the dialog doesn't match the scene).  Really great stuff:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Physics-Superheroes-James-Kakalios/dp/1592402429/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1347371140&sr=8-2&keywords=physics+of+superheroes

[Max e^{i pi}]

Usually towards turning a human body into Jell-O.

Although I'm aware of the physics problems in that moment of the Harry Potter movie, I didn't consider them problematic because it's magic.  If I were crafting a spell that would stop me from falling, then I would find a way to apply inertia dampening as well, so why not build it in?

Because magic has its own rules as well.
I also allow a certain amount of implausibility clauses (Like in Battlestar Galactica they can jump faster than the speed of light and have artificial gravity, but everything else works fine with modern physics).
However, when crafting a magic spell to save oneself from falling one cannot simply ignore the laws of physics. The potential energy must go somewhere. One cannot simply "magic" it way. Just like traffic laws don't interfere with physics laws, so too magic laws shouldn't.

[chemistryguy]

Usually towards turning a human body into Jell-O.

Although I'm aware of the physics problems in that moment of the Harry Potter movie, I didn't consider them problematic because it's magic.  If I were crafting a spell that would stop me from falling, then I would find a way to apply inertia dampening as well, so why not build it in?

Because magic has its own rules as well.
I also allow a certain amount of implausibility clauses (Like in Battlestar Galactica they can jump faster than the speed of light and have artificial gravity, but everything else works fine with modern physics).
However, when crafting a magic spell to save oneself from falling one cannot simply ignore the laws of physics. The potential energy must go somewhere. One cannot simply "magic" it way. Just like traffic laws don't interfere with physics laws, so too magic laws shouldn't.

If they can make use of 4th dimensional space (as with their small on the outside, enormous on the inside tents), adjust the flow of time and make changes to the continuum, and create living things out of inanimate objects, I can't question a simple problem like inertia.

[Dem]

I LOVE this forum! 

[Special Ed]

However, when crafting a magic spell to save oneself from falling one cannot simply ignore the laws of physics. The potential energy must go somewhere. One cannot simply "magic" it way. Just like traffic laws don't interfere with physics laws, so too magic laws shouldn't.

I think it depends entirely on the magic "system" involved.  Terry Pratchett deals with this nicely in one way (see the seventh quotehttp://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Colour_of_Magic_by_Terry_Pratchett).  Even the ancient Dungeons and Dragons cartoon touched on this (http://www.dungeonsdragonscartoon.com/2009/08/day-of-dungeon-master.html)  Other systems take other approaches. 

Suddenly I'm picturing a world that is the "sink" for the various forces that are magically ignored in another world.

[Unblinking]

Because magic has its own rules as well.
I also allow a certain amount of implausibility clauses (Like in Battlestar Galactica they can jump faster than the speed of light and have artificial gravity, but everything else works fine with modern physics).
However, when crafting a magic spell to save oneself from falling one cannot simply ignore the laws of physics. The potential energy must go somewhere. One cannot simply "magic" it way. Just like traffic laws don't interfere with physics laws, so too magic laws shouldn't.

Sez you.    I'm not saying that to be rude, but you can't dictate what people can and can't do with magic in stories.  It's magic, it can do whatever the author decides it can do.  If you don't like that kind of magic, that's your prerogative.  But it's not objectively wrong to use magic that way in a story (and keep in mind that the movies add lots of stupid stuff like that that weren't in the books)

If you have a problem with the conservation of energy in that scene, there's such a problem inherent in the very magic system of that fictional universe.  The energy for magic doesn't come from anywhere, except for saying Latin-esque words and waving a wand.  Where does the energy come from?  Give me some good old fashioned blood sacrifices and I can do some handwaving about the potential vital and causal energy that might be harvested by cutting a lifeform's existence short.

[chemistryguy]

Suddenly I'm picturing a world that is the "sink" for the various forces that are magically ignored in another world.

Is this sort of like a conservation of magic?  You can do magic, but there's always a price.  And in this case, one world gets all the good stuff while another gets stuck with the bill?  Or am I interpreting this all wrong?

[Max e^{i pi}]

Suddenly I'm picturing a world that is the "sink" for the various forces that are magically ignored in another world.

Is this sort of like a conservation of magic?  You can do magic, but there's always a price.  And in this case, one world gets all the good stuff while another gets stuck with the bill?  Or am I interpreting this all wrong?

That's somewhat the way I see it.
We are so deeply ingrained into the causality of reality, that it is difficult to imagine a system that does not adhere to this "simple" rule.
Lifting an object up a gravity well requires energy, an object falling down a gravity well releases energy. Cause and effect. The pencil fell off the table, the energy of the fall was expended in breaking the pencil (and also a bounce or two). That energy must go somewhere, maybe to another universe. In fact, there was an Isaac Asimov book about this, the transferal of matter and energy from one universe to another to provide "free" energy. (The Gods Themselves).

Yes, (Unblinking, pay attention), a magical system can be imagined that will be able to completely disregard the laws of physics as we understand them. And I did not imagine such a magical system, but one based on more "mundane" rules. But that's sort of the point I'm making: the more I understand the laws of physics, the harder it is for me to see them completely disregarded.

[El Barto]

This concept could be part of a wonderful story that explains how magic is real and is actually pure science in the form of energy being shuttled back and forth between dimensions.   I can already picture another world where the heat and momentum from our "magic" is released or stored until we need it back.

[SF.Fangirl]

I'd have got mad at all those things too, if I hadn't been boiling at the stupidity of the Drifter captain. What kind of clueless numpty tells people she doesn't know about a development that will put them out of business AND that the designers are on board AND that it will all get going as soon as they reach their destination?

I think this is the most valid non-physics related criticism so far. I chalked it up to someone on a generation ship not having the same social interactions in a lifetime as the average kid does in 2 weeks of high school, but it does seem that there would be HEAVY warnings from earth that the scientists should not be discussed before they are thawed. I guess also that someone with a limited social circle would be tempted to chat up anybody new. But I mean really, the guys were going to refuel the ship whether they knew what was on it or not. She could have just signed the contract and walked away and all was done
[/quote]

I agree that the Captain was stupid but she did grow up among people who were trained to build and maintain this great accomplishment so she's understandably proud in addition to being clueless about social interactions.  Still it was such an obviously a stupid mistake from the moment she started talking about it that it did hurt the story.

[SF.Fangirl]

I enjoyed this story.  I absolutely hated what Wild did, but it happened with only a minute or two left so it didn't ruin my enjoyment of the story.

It's very odd for a sci fi story though.  Wild is sort of the hero and Sebastian seemed to idolize him and agree with his actions, but in the end he delays scientific advancement for completely selfish and illogical reasons.  Wild and Sebastian go from being characters the readers' envy because they're enjoying the fruits of scientific advancement we won't live to see to being the asshole jocks who beat up the smart kids in school.  It's just weird to read a sci fi story where the hero opposes progress for purely selfish reasons.  And despite my vehement disagreement with Wild's actions there's no hint that the author wants us to think what Wild did is wrong.

[scpasson]

I see the story of evil people trying to convince themselves or us that they are not evil.  The characters felt to goody goody for their actions at the end.  If there were incidents where ships were not caught earlier in the story (either because of interference between groups of chasers or that it was a ship that was unlikely to be able to pay), then the justification of personal financial against trapping unknown thousands in space could be appreciated as chasers not really caring about the lives of the passengers and acting as modern day smugglers do. I thought the justification was supposed to sound flimsy and the actions deplorable.  That said the transition from seemingly good guy to murder did not feel natural.  I want to see the descent to villainy or corruption of a character and the switch was to sudden for me to buy into it.  I liked Wyld, then I found out he was a scumbag and dead.  I would have preferred  to hate him for a while then see him get his due later, or seen his descent to villany slower so that I could wish he made better decisions earlier. 

Also since information can travel at the speed of light, I would have expected plans to be sent out by the company and local producers to generate the catching mechanism for either a stake in the company or large fees.  The new technology must have some advantage either in cost or time so the locations where a receiving stations are in place may be favored by emigrants which might also destroy the chaser business  for that system.   The chasing companies would probably favor the new tech as cost saving measures and still cut the chasers loose.  Since ships would always travel slower than information I would expect colonists always arriving out of date, not on the leading edge of tech.  Then we could have the story of someone who left earth to be a Chaser, and arrived finding out the job didn't exist anymore. 

[Unblinking]

Yes, (Unblinking, pay attention), a magical system can be imagined that will be able to completely disregard the laws of physics as we understand them. And I did not imagine such a magical system, but one based on more "mundane" rules. But that's sort of the point I'm making: the more I understand the laws of physics, the harder it is for me to see them completely disregarded.

I am paying attention now, and I was before--my disagreement with you wasn't because of lack of attention.   Actually, I find the idea of a magic system that maintains conservation of energy very appealing.  I tend to prefer magic systems that have a cost associated with every gain--not because I feel that magic has to follow basic laws of physics but because that means that the characters' choices are, by necessity, harder.

When you say "the more I understand the laws of physics, the harder it is for me to see them completely disregarded".  I can't argue with that.  I don't tend to agree--I can often just laugh these plausibility holes off if it's an entertaining story, but you are expressing your personal tastes and your personal tastes can't be wrong.

What I CAN argue with is when you said "However, when crafting a magic spell to save oneself from falling one cannot simply ignore the laws of physics", that's just not true.  Harry Potter does this in general, as I pointed out, and this has not hurt Rowling's popularity.  It might be true for a fictional world that you create, or for a particular fictional world that someone else has created, but it's just not true if you're talking about all fictional worlds, let alone all potential fictional worlds.  You could make a handwaving explanation about that extra energy being diverted to other worlds, and this is entertaining and interesting but I don't think there's any indication that that was intended by the text.  If someone says "this cannot be done" to disprove, all one has to do is name one example of it being done. 

Now if you said "one SHOULD not simply ignore the laws of physics" then that would be an opinion based on taste that I couldn't say is incorrect.

[CryptoMe]

The story didn't work for me either. As has already been pointed out, too many detail flaws.

Another thing that stuck out for me was the concept that, after Wild guy exploded, none of the other chasers would be able to catch the generational ship because they had already turned back. Really? Hadn't they just done that a few minutes ago (the time it took for the MC to meet and talk with the generational ship captain)? If the refueling ships can get from their base to the generation ship in relatively short time (not sure how long it was, but the story implied it was much less than a day), why would a few minutes make any difference? Not consistent within the world the author created.

[Unblinking]

The story didn't work for me either. As has already been pointed out, too many detail flaws.

Another thing that stuck out for me was the concept that, after Wild guy exploded, none of the other chasers would be able to catch the generational ship because they had already turned back. Really? Hadn't they just done that a few minutes ago (the time it took for the MC to meet and talk with the generational ship captain)? If the refueling ships can get from their base to the generation ship in relatively short time (not sure how long it was, but the story implied it was much less than a day), why would a few minutes make any difference? Not consistent within the world the author created.

Not only that, but the generation ship now has 2/3 of the fuel payload they need to slow down for their destination, so they can make themselves easier to catch by burning what they have.

[Scattercat]

I've heard that you can replace the caption of every cartoon in the New Yorker with the phrase "Christ, what an asshole," and it will fit perfectly.

For some reason, that factoid popped into my head after hearing this story.  Weird.  I wonder why.

[LaShawn]

To me, most of the this story was "Blabbity blah blah ship, blah blah MOOOOOOOVE ONNNNNNN, blabbity blabbity blah blah blah..." Until the MC finally made his catch. I finally started tuning into the story just in time to hear the captain (I too was turned off by her "description") spill the beans about her special passengers and their mission and I was all but yelling at the narrator OMIGOSH SHUT UP SHUT UP WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU WOMAN?! and it all turned into a terrible train wreck of stupid people doing stupid things...

The bad thing though is that, sadly, I can see it being plausible. A cautionary tale, if you will.

This is a tale of complete stupidity. There are no good characters in this story at all. If there was, I think it would have detracted from the story. It puts me in mind of all the slasher movies where you're yelling at the screen for the characters to NOT OPEN THE DAMN DOOR THE KILLER IS BEHIND IT CAN'T YOU SEE THE BLOOD STUPID?, but they do it anyway. I hate to say this, but I enjoyed it far more than I ought to.

[Listener]

The bad thing though is that, sadly, I can see it being plausible. A cautionary tale, if you will.

I get the feeling the author was trying to draw a parallel to the oil industry with the story, and fears that it will do something similar to what the chasers did in this story.

Bit of a heavy-handed point that detracted from a decent action piece, IMO.

[Unblinking]

The bad thing though is that, sadly, I can see it being plausible. A cautionary tale, if you will.

I get the feeling the author was trying to draw a parallel to the oil industry with the story, and fears that it will do something similar to what the chasers did in this story.

Bit of a heavy-handed point that detracted from a decent action piece, IMO.

I didn't get that impression at all.  So if it was heavy-handed, it was still too light for me to note.

[hardware]

I liked this one, it was a decent twist on the deep space travel problem which made for a fun set of conflicts and adventure. Like many here, I found the end a bit disappointing, not because of the stupidity or egoism of the people involved (yes, Wild takes the prize for mindnumbing shortsightedness, but hey, you don't need to be Einstein to drive a fuel truck, and fear of change is a strong force), but because once the captain started talking, it was so obvious where we were heading. And one thing I don't like is predictability.

Interesting discussion here, by the way. Unfortunately it seems that the author walked into some kind of uncanny valley in between hard and soft SF. If you throw in time travel and/or faster than light travel, no one will say anything, but once you start making things just a little more realistic, people will start looking for the cracks. And once you start using numbers with decimals - there is just no way you can win, specially when you deal with general relativity, which is one field of science where the average geek knows the basics. I have my fair share of physics training, and I can honestly say that those aspects didn't bother me at all.

Now, about the actions of the captain. I just assumed that she thought that this project was known to everyone, after all it was probably known on earth for many many years, and all her life was basically this project (I assume she was born on board), so I didn't find it strange that she didn't think twice about discussing it with some fuel truckers. A bit naive and arrogant, yeah, but not so unbelievable.