Author Topic: PC230: Little Better Than A Beast  (Read 22559 times)

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Reply #25 on: October 26, 2012, 04:37:26 PM
This story had the early Laurell K Hamilton vibe, before her books turned into erotica masquerading as horror. Kickass heroine who doesn't take crap from anyone and can solve her own problems and is also smart.


Thank you! I've been trying to figure out why I liked this story despite me agreeing with most of the disenters. I think spending my high school years reading LKH and Anne Rice has made me to sympathetic to the-horribly-flawed-character-who-is-really-really-cool trope.

And maybe that explains part of my dislike, because I often don't think things are cool that everyone expects me to think of as cool (even in a genre-loving audience).  I could like a character who was flawed but cool, but I don't think she's cool at all based on this story.  I don't understand, at all, how Marla Mason is supposed to cool. 

As another example of me not grokking crowd-viewed coolness, consider "All Praise Awesome Dinosaurs".  I can recognize that that story is plumb full of things which I am assumed to consider cool, but I didn't get the coolness at all.

Go figure.



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Reply #26 on: October 26, 2012, 04:46:54 PM
This story had the early Laurell K Hamilton vibe, before her books turned into erotica masquerading as horror. Kickass heroine who doesn't take crap from anyone and can solve her own problems and is also smart.


Thank you! I've been trying to figure out why I liked this story despite me agreeing with most of the disenters. I think spending my high school years reading LKH and Anne Rice has made me to sympathetic to the-horribly-flawed-character-who-is-really-really-cool trope.

I dunno... I read those books in high school, too, and I couldn't stand this one. In fact, I have a serious mad-on for characters who are too cool for ethics.

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Reply #27 on: October 27, 2012, 01:41:08 PM
  I can recognize that that story is plumb full of things which I am assumed to consider cool, but I didn't get the coolness at all.

Go figure.

I feel the same way about "Big Bang Theory."  I'm told all of the time that I should love it, it's all nerdy and sciency, so why wouldn't I like it?  I don't.  I can't sit through an episode of it, I find it that awful.
But, as I wrote earlier in this thread
This is what I love about this place and humanity in general.  Things one person loves, the next person is lukewarm about, and the person after dislikes.





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Reply #28 on: October 28, 2012, 03:04:59 PM
  I can recognize that that story is plumb full of things which I am assumed to consider cool, but I didn't get the coolness at all.

Go figure.

I feel the same way about "Big Bang Theory."  I'm told all of the time that I should love it, it's all nerdy and sciency, so why wouldn't I like it?  I don't.  I can't sit through an episode of it, I find it that awful.
But, as I wrote earlier in this thread

My wife and I tried to watch Big Bang Theory. The problem with that show is that it's humor about geeks, but increasingly written for non-geeks. All the jokes are at the expense of the geeky characters, and in some pretty cruel ways. Thanks, but I don't need to watch a show insisting that geeks are sexless, pointing out that people with Asperger's are funny, and that geek pursuits are silly. I got enough of that BS when I was still in school.

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Reply #29 on: October 28, 2012, 07:24:04 PM
This story had the early Laurell K Hamilton vibe, before her books turned into erotica masquerading as horror. Kickass heroine who doesn't take crap from anyone and can solve her own problems and is also smart.


Thank you! I've been trying to figure out why I liked this story despite me agreeing with most of the disenters. I think spending my high school years reading LKH and Anne Rice has made me to sympathetic to the-horribly-flawed-character-who-is-really-really-cool trope.

I dunno... I read those books in high school, too, and I couldn't stand this one. In fact, I have a serious mad-on for characters who are too cool for ethics.

That's admirable. I have a real problem with loving characters I would loathe IRL; and vice versa hating characters that are admirable people I would want in my life if they existed.



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Reply #30 on: October 29, 2012, 04:54:27 PM
  I can recognize that that story is plumb full of things which I am assumed to consider cool, but I didn't get the coolness at all.

Go figure.

I feel the same way about "Big Bang Theory."  I'm told all of the time that I should love it, it's all nerdy and sciency, so why wouldn't I like it?  I don't.  I can't sit through an episode of it, I find it that awful.
But, as I wrote earlier in this thread

My wife and I tried to watch Big Bang Theory. The problem with that show is that it's humor about geeks, but increasingly written for non-geeks. All the jokes are at the expense of the geeky characters, and in some pretty cruel ways. Thanks, but I don't need to watch a show insisting that geeks are sexless, pointing out that people with Asperger's are funny, and that geek pursuits are silly. I got enough of that BS when I was still in school.

That was my impression too, the first several times I tried to watch it.  There was one episode in particular that bothered me before I knew the characters, where Amy experiences her first crush and is trying to analyze its symptoms, and Walowitz and Raj face off in a wrestling match.  I got the same impression that you did about it seeming to assume that all geeks are sexless, but I realize in retrospect that I was drawing too broad a conclusion from that one episode.


I don't think your characterizations of the show are accurate in the long run though. 
--The show does not at all insist that geeks are sexless.  Only Sheldon seems to be sexless, the other geeks have varying (but some very strong) sex drives.  I don't think it's unreasonable for an asexual person to be drawn to science as an occupation; I don't think the show implies at all that geeks are sexless as a rule, or even commonly.
--I don't find Sheldon funny, but I find the show funny.  Sheldon is certainly a source of tension and a plot-driver, but I don't find him funny. 
--I think the show does draw some comedy from geek pursuits being silly, but I think it spends enough time establishing that other people's pursuits are no less silly.



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Reply #31 on: October 30, 2012, 06:58:13 AM
First of all, when I heard Dave say "T. A. Pratt" I was all Oh, so Tim has an A?. I didn't think it was somebody else.
You can't fool me, Dave!
Second, was it just me or did Dave record the intro and outro for this one in a different sound theater? He sounded a little off.

And now, to the story.
Just like any Tim Pratt story it was amazing. I loved it, and am now scouring my local bookstores for the Marla Manson books.
The reading was little bit off, to my ears. It sounded like she was putting a lot effort on enunciating the words correctly (kudos for that!) but it sometimes sounded slightly robotic. It broke the flow of the narrative sometimes.
Also, it hurts me to say this, but I think the story ran on a little bit too long. I would have ended it with
Quote
"You'll like it there" and he fired the stun gun.
That last scene in the Wacky Wizards Ward was a bit too much, and ended the story on a less upbeat note, in my opinion.
Well... not less upbeat, but more like we actually care what happened to the guy. He made a dick move 400 years ago, kept making dick moves now, so he gets a face full of stun and we never hear from him again. I don't care that the hot doctor in charge of the asylum wants to cure him.
Unless he comes back...

Despite all that, this was a wonderful story, it had me hooked from beginning to end. I was completely swept away in the world and characters, just like Mr. Pratt knows how to do. It left me with a thirst for more from this world.
Thank you.

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Reply #32 on: October 30, 2012, 09:52:46 AM
And now that I read skimmed the thread I have one thing to say:
The fact that Marla is a kickass-no-holds-barred bitch is what appeals to me. I'm tired of the holier-than-thou heroes and heroines. It's time for somebody with a different set of morals to take charge. And that's what Marla is. She's not evil, she just has a slightly skewed (from our perspective) set of morals and priorities.
She doesn't strike me as the power-hungry dictator of the wizards council doing whatever it takes to maintain a stranglehold on the city. She strikes me as someone who has one objective in mind: protect her city. And yes, it is her city. She is as protective of it as a mother is of her children. When something threatens the city, be it a monster from some other dimension or a bigoted bastard from 400 years ago, she will do whatever it takes to protect her city.
She doesn't have to rationalize anything. She may see the issues in black and white rather than shads of gray, but her intentions are honorable and her results can't be argued with.

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Reply #33 on: October 30, 2012, 01:36:40 PM
When something threatens the city, be it a monster from some other dimension or a bigoted bastard from 400 years ago, she will do whatever it takes to protect her city.

But was the bigoted bastard really a danger to her city?  I didn't think he was.  If she'd committed for endangering her city that would be another thing, rather than committed him for disrespecting her.  For an egotist like him, it would've been fitting enough to just let him suffer through discomfort at the state of modern society.



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Reply #34 on: October 30, 2012, 01:36:58 PM
And now that I read skimmed the thread I have one thing to say:
The fact that Marla is a kickass-no-holds-barred bitch is what appeals to me. I'm tired of the holier-than-thou heroes and heroines. It's time for somebody with a different set of morals to take charge. And that's what Marla is. She's not evil, she just has a slightly skewed (from our perspective) set of morals and priorities.
She doesn't strike me as the power-hungry dictator of the wizards council doing whatever it takes to maintain a stranglehold on the city. She strikes me as someone who has one objective in mind: protect her city. And yes, it is her city. She is as protective of it as a mother is of her children. When something threatens the city, be it a monster from some other dimension or a bigoted bastard from 400 years ago, she will do whatever it takes to protect her city.
She doesn't have to rationalize anything. She may see the issues in black and white rather than shads of gray, but her intentions are honorable and her results can't be argued with.

The thing is, I'd totally appreciate your point of view (except for the 'it's time for...' part - actually, I think antiheroes are way more in right now than straight-up genuine heroes) except for one detail. To me, it isn't that Marla has a 'different' set of morals, it's that she has 'no appreciable morals.' It isn't that she grapples with hard choices, makes tough decisions, and is self-reflective about the evil she creates in her desire to do good - or she isn't self-reflective, but at least someone in her vicinity is - it's that she barrels ahead making terrible choices and doing awful things, without comment.

In other words, while my critique manifested as an argument against Marla, what I'm seeing now is that that's never what it really was. It's really an argument against the story Marla lives in. Marla isn't that sympathetic, and that's only kind of a problem. She's amoral, selfish, arrogant, and cruel, but those are just personality traits, and she probably has other traits in there, too. The problem is that the world she's in - at least in this story - doesn't call her on any of it, and that's disturbing and off-putting.

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Reply #35 on: October 30, 2012, 01:54:49 PM
When something threatens the city, be it a monster from some other dimension or a bigoted bastard from 400 years ago, she will do whatever it takes to protect her city.

But was the bigoted bastard really a danger to her city?  I didn't think he was.  If she'd committed for endangering her city that would be another thing, rather than committed him for disrespecting her.  For an egotist like him, it would've been fitting enough to just let him suffer through discomfort at the state of modern society.

I think you could make a case that he is, or at least: that Marla thinks he is. Marla believes Malken sacrificed humans in the past in a (failed) attempt rid Felport of the beast, and that's not something she wants in her city.


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Reply #36 on: October 30, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
When something threatens the city, be it a monster from some other dimension or a bigoted bastard from 400 years ago, she will do whatever it takes to protect her city.

But was the bigoted bastard really a danger to her city?  I didn't think he was.  If she'd committed for endangering her city that would be another thing, rather than committed him for disrespecting her.  For an egotist like him, it would've been fitting enough to just let him suffer through discomfort at the state of modern society.

I think you could make a case that he is, or at least: that Marla thinks he is. Marla believes Malken sacrificed humans in the past in a (failed) attempt rid Felport of the beast, and that's not something she wants in her city.

Also, what would happen if he were to be allowed to roam free? Here is a man with little value to human life (human sacrifices) who is suddenly thrust into a world where "his" city contains millions of people that he sees as "inferior". If he's as powerful as they say, what will stop him from "purging his city of all those who are unfit"?

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Reply #37 on: October 30, 2012, 03:24:42 PM
When something threatens the city, be it a monster from some other dimension or a bigoted bastard from 400 years ago, she will do whatever it takes to protect her city.

But was the bigoted bastard really a danger to her city?  I didn't think he was.  If she'd committed for endangering her city that would be another thing, rather than committed him for disrespecting her.  For an egotist like him, it would've been fitting enough to just let him suffer through discomfort at the state of modern society.

I think you could make a case that he is, or at least: that Marla thinks he is. Marla believes Malken sacrificed humans in the past in a (failed) attempt rid Felport of the beast, and that's not something she wants in her city.

Except of course that Marla is practicing "human sacrifice for the greater good" in her own way by locking Malken up to protect the city. Sure, it's not like she's killing him, but she is preventing him from having a full life.



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Reply #38 on: October 30, 2012, 04:00:27 PM
Oh, don't get me wrong: I think that's an absolutely valid interpretation. I really like it, personally - because it just adds to the comparison Rondeau drew between Marla and Malkin.

But I think in Marla's eyes, if it's a call between her sacrificing Malkin vs. allowing Malkin himself to pick a sacrifice from her city...well, it's an easy call for her to make.


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Reply #39 on: October 31, 2012, 06:51:37 AM
But I think in Marla's eyes, if it's a call between her sacrificing Malkin vs. allowing Malkin himself to pick a sacrifice from her city...well, it's an easy call for her to make.

Exactly. Because the way I see it Marla isn't evil, she just needs to protect her city.
Sort of like Dr. Horrible. Sure he wants to rule the world, but it stems from a desire to fix everything that is broken in our society. I'm not saying he's right. Or that Marla is right. I'm saying that according to their world view and their morals they are right.
And who are we to judge?

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Reply #40 on: October 31, 2012, 02:06:48 PM
When something threatens the city, be it a monster from some other dimension or a bigoted bastard from 400 years ago, she will do whatever it takes to protect her city.

But was the bigoted bastard really a danger to her city?  I didn't think he was.  If she'd committed for endangering her city that would be another thing, rather than committed him for disrespecting her.  For an egotist like him, it would've been fitting enough to just let him suffer through discomfort at the state of modern society.

I think you could make a case that he is, or at least: that Marla thinks he is. Marla believes Malken sacrificed humans in the past in a (failed) attempt rid Felport of the beast, and that's not something she wants in her city.

Also, what would happen if he were to be allowed to roam free? Here is a man with little value to human life (human sacrifices) who is suddenly thrust into a world where "his" city contains millions of people that he sees as "inferior". If he's as powerful as they say, what will stop him from "purging his city of all those who are unfit"?

Okay, fair enough.  Then lock him up in jail, try him for crimes against humanity, and deal with it properly.  She has the power to do it properly, everyone seems eager to kowtow to her every whim.  That combined with her lazily stepping aside to let someone else handle the immediate threat bothers me.  And I think I agree with EP as well, in that it may not be her lack of morals that bothers me, but the fact that no one else calls her on it.  My interpretation is that they are all so terrified of her that no one would dare question her.



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Reply #41 on: October 31, 2012, 02:42:38 PM
While listening to this story the general lack of morals bothered me, for about two seconds. Then I asked myself this:
How do we impose our moral system on people with magical powers?
One could make the argument that with additional power comes additional responsibility. And it would be a valid argument.
But I don't want to go there.
Rather think of this: what is the mindset of a person with magical powers? How different is it from ours? Clearly a different set of rules applies here. And that set of rules is (I should think) imposed by the wizarding community. They must have some set of rules that they lay down to keep themselves in order. And it would surely be vastly different from our own.
I can't fathom what their rules would be, I can only speculate how I would draw up the rules. I wouldn't allow casual terrestrial law breaking (jaywalking, theft, mugging, rape, etc') because there is no conflict of interest. I would only allow murder under the most dire of circumstances. Think of James Bond, he has a license to kill, but doesn't shouldn't abuse that power. And when he does abuse it, it is revoked. The purpose of this license is to allow him to do his job: maintain world peace. (or those parts of the world that Britain has an interest in)
Similarly, wizards might have a license to kill or banish to the Dungeon Dimensions without having to get a court order. Because when you are dealing with this kind of thing there often isn't time for a court order.
They must, of course, employ a system of checks-and-balances to maintain order. When somebody does the wrong thing he or she needs to be corrected. Such a system exists in the world of the story, as evidenced by the institute for deranged and dangerous sorcerers.
Would the wizards choose a pencil-pushing, rule-following bureaucrat to lead them? I should hope not. Such a leader would have let several people die before managing to take care of the Beast. They need somebody who doesn't always play by the rules.
Do I agree with how Marla handled Malkin? I'm still not sure. But if I were there I would allow Marla the occasional, relatively harmless indiscretion. Without it, she couldn't do her job properly: protect the city. If she were constantly hobbled by what-ifs then she would be useless. A weapon in the hands of someone afraid to use it. Her greatest strength is her "Hulk smash" attitude. And it gets results. If we were to make her stop and rethink every decision, or drag her over the coals for actions taken, then she'd be less than useless. She'd be a liability. Because she'd still go ahead and do it anyway, only this time without support.
So, in conclusion, I don't think that we can judge her based on our rules or morals, and based on the conjectured rules of that universe, she was probably OK.

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Reply #42 on: October 31, 2012, 03:38:03 PM
Would the wizards choose a pencil-pushing, rule-following bureaucrat to lead them? I should hope not. Such a leader would have let several people die before managing to take care of the Beast. They need somebody who doesn't always play by the rules.
Do I agree with how Marla handled Malkin? I'm still not sure. But if I were there I would allow Marla the occasional, relatively harmless indiscretion. Without it, she couldn't do her job properly: protect the city. If she were constantly hobbled by what-ifs then she would be useless. A weapon in the hands of someone afraid to use it. Her greatest strength is her "Hulk smash" attitude. And it gets results. If we were to make her stop and rethink every decision, or drag her over the coals for actions taken, then she'd be less than useless. She'd be a liability. Because she'd still go ahead and do it anyway, only this time without support.
So, in conclusion, I don't think that we can judge her based on our rules or morals, and based on the conjectured rules of that universe, she was probably OK.

She didn't break the rules by the way she took care of the beast.  That was a clear and immediate threat and she delegated the work to a techie to handle while she took care of Malkin.

I'm not saying that she shouldn't have taken steps to neutralize Malkin's potential threat, put him in custody for the protection of himself and others for now so that he doesn't kill someone, but having him committed for life should not be the first resort.



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Reply #43 on: October 31, 2012, 05:01:02 PM
I'm not saying that she shouldn't have taken steps to neutralize Malkin's potential threat, put him in custody for the protection of himself and others for now so that he doesn't kill someone, but having him committed for life should not be the first resort.
What sort of custody would contain a wizard? Maybe the jail cell at the 13th precinct? County jail? Alcatraz?
I got the impression that there really is only one place that could contain such people, and that's the facility for dangerous sorcerers.
Maybe that's the only such facility they need. Perhaps the wizard mindset is such that to turn evil and criminal is to be mentally unstable. Maybe they'd like to think that only the mentally deranged wizards can be dangerous. Maybe that's how they define mentally unstable.

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Reply #44 on: November 01, 2012, 01:35:08 PM
I'm not saying that she shouldn't have taken steps to neutralize Malkin's potential threat, put him in custody for the protection of himself and others for now so that he doesn't kill someone, but having him committed for life should not be the first resort.
What sort of custody would contain a wizard? Maybe the jail cell at the 13th precinct? County jail? Alcatraz?
I got the impression that there really is only one place that could contain such people, and that's the facility for dangerous sorcerers.
Maybe that's the only such facility they need. Perhaps the wizard mindset is such that to turn evil and criminal is to be mentally unstable. Maybe they'd like to think that only the mentally deranged wizards can be dangerous. Maybe that's how they define mentally unstable.

It's a magical society, I'm sure they have some means for containing criminal elements.  Even if they locked him up on grounds of being dangerous it would be better than just pretending he's insane.  I'm still not at all sure that he would hurt someone.  Everybody has the potential to become dangerous, so if you're going to imprison somebody for life based on their potential for harm, then we should all be locked up.



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Reply #45 on: November 23, 2012, 01:51:33 AM
Many of the characters I love to read are people that I would never want to know personally.

In that spirit I just read Blood Engines and ordered the other books in the series. Marla is much fun to read about.



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Reply #46 on: December 02, 2012, 05:05:04 AM
Some times i feel the residents here take every story as a serious think piece. sometimes they're just for fun. plot flaws, characterization flaws and all. just for fun.

Did anyone else expect Squonk to show up?

It was a fun tale.

I didn't read all the comments on this one. all the analysus and comparison with "The Dresden Files" upfront got me frustrated. It was a well written fun story. yes it had some social commentary, but that wasn't the focus of the story. to me it was a fun introduction to a character i would like to hear more about.

and it was a PRATT story, 'nuff said

laters taters

Enjoy and be nice to each other, because "WE" is all we got.


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Reply #47 on: December 03, 2012, 02:46:39 PM
Did anyone else expect Squonk to show up?

I expect Marla would've thrown him in the insane asylum too, just for good measure.



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Reply #48 on: December 04, 2012, 04:09:54 PM
nah, she would have just sent him to the park to frolic with Granger.



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Reply #49 on: December 05, 2012, 10:01:27 PM
Some times i feel the residents here take every story as a serious think piece. sometimes they're just for fun. plot flaws, characterization flaws and all. just for fun.

I feel like that sometimes, too.