Author Topic: How Professional Are We? (Read 18241 times)

Cutter McKay · **on:** October 21, 2012, 05:24:00 PM

Am I alone in my surprise at how many stories in this contest were full of typos, grammatical errors, misplaced commas, etc? I mean, I understand that this contest is open to anyone and everyone, so there will be a certain number of amateur entries. But the number of raw stories in this contest has surprised me.

Escape Pod is a professional publication. And as such, a certain level of professionalism should be both expected and enforced. You don't go to a job interview in jeans and a t-shirt, why would you submit an un-finished manuscript for publication? I know that, since this is a forums contest, it's a little more casual in its structure. But to me that doesn't excuse authors not bothering to polish their stories.

Personally, despite the number of good ideas in this contest, I found that I couldn't vote for any story where the author didn't submit a finished manuscript.

The bottom line here is, of you want to get published, act like a professional. Every time.

Am I alone in my opinion here?

P.S. I wrote this on my phone. I really hope there are no typos, grammatical errors, or misplaced commas or I'll never live out down.

eytanz · **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2012, 05:42:56 PM

I think there are several aspects you should consider - first, the reason professional publications look professional is because they have editors whose job it is to make sure the entries are professional. Occasional typos are found even at the submission stage even in work by well established authors - the submission stage is not equivalent to the final publication. The entries in this contest have not yet been edited by anyone except their author.

Second, the prize for this contest is an audio publication, so some authors may feel that there's less need to worry about typos - as long as the narrator knows what to say at the end.

As one of Escape Pod's slush readers I can say that the amount of unpolished work that appeared in this contest is certainly not greater than the amount of unpolished work that is submitted to Escape Pod in general. To be truthful, even the least polished story in this contest is nowhere nearly as bad as some of the stuff that people see fit to submit.

That said, you're absolutely right in that this is a contest, not a regular submission. The stories *are* being read in their current form and judged by a general public, not just a slush reader or two and an editor. Anyone who submits an entry with many typos - or worse, grammatical errors that won't go away by simply being read aloud - runs the risk of losing the votes of those readers, like yourself, who care about these things.

Unblinking · **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2012, 06:22:36 PM

I agree that the authors who submit should consider how their work is being viewed. If you aren't good at spotting typos in your own stories, find a friend who is better at it and have them help.

I'm not sure if the contest is more forgiving or less forgiving than a typical editorial staff on typos. When I'm reading slush, a typo here and there don't bother me to any great degree, it's mostly when it gets to a point that I'm having trouble deciphering the meaning. In a 750 word story, one or two doesn't matter too much, but if I see a half dozen errors, especially of the sort that Spellcheck would've found, it makes me grumpy and it means that I'm not paying attention to the story itself like I want to be.

Scattercat · **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2012, 06:39:52 PM

*points to what Eytanz said*

I've been at EP for less than two years, and I've still seen typos from some surprising locations. "Professional" doesn't mean "no typos," but rather that someone has clearly made the effort to present their story as best they can. Sure, some of the stories in this contest probably needed another round or two of proofing, but you would probably be astounded at some of the things people put in actual submissions. (It starts with misspelling the names of the editors and/or the publication in question and works its way down.)

Anyway, I came in here thinking it was going to be speculation on how many professional authors are in the contest. Let's talk about that instead. I noticed we already lost one Cat Rambo story (and I don't know if she submitted another one.) I'm technically a professional and my lone entry is still in the running. (Since my preferences don't apply and The People get to pick the stories this time around, and Eytanz is running the forum side of things so I can't see who else is doing what, I figure I'm as entitled as anyone. :-D) There are a handful of stories still in that look to have been written by pros, to my eye, or at least by folks who know what they're doing. Defining "professional" loosely, I'm going to guesstimate... thirty percent of the contest entries by someone who's sold at least one story to at least one semi-pro paying market?

Umbrageofsnow · **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2012, 07:05:34 PM

Nathan, I realize you've got several million more important things to do, but I'm sure those of us with a story still in the running are curious which 30% you think are professional.

I was surprised to see Cat Rambo in this contest, but on second thought, reading this thread, I realize there are quite a few stories that read like they are written by people who know what they are doing.

As to the number of errors in these stories, yeah some were appalling, but really not that bad, considering. I think because of the short time between the announcement of the contest and the submission deadline, a lot of people started and finished their stories in that window and so didn't have anything that had seen much polish or proofreading.

Cutter McKay · **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2012, 10:38:52 PM

I suppose I should clarify. I didn't mean that the submissions should have no typos at all. Typos happen. But, as Unblinking said, when there are enough typos to pull me out of the story, then it's too many to forgive. And sadly, there were several stories in this contest that fit that category.

More than typos, though, there was just some bad grammar in many of these tales. Now, I admit, I'm a stickler for grammar and punctuation, so maybe I'm being overly critical. But I have been surprised at how forgiving most of the voters have been. I've almost yelled at my computer several times when, after I read a story that was like slogging through a molasses swamp of bad grammar, it's followed by several forumers' comments about how well it was written. "No, it wasn't!" I'm screaming.

Quote from: eytanz on October 21, 2012, 05:42:56 PM

Second, the prize for this contest is an audio publication, so some authors may feel that there's less need to worry about typos - as long as the narrator knows what to say at the end.

This is my point, though. Any author who felt like their grammar, punctuation, and spell-check was less important because of the audio nature of this contest is wrong. Escape Pod counts as a professional publication, correct? Therefore, submissions should be as polished and professional as possible.

I guess my real beef isn't with the authors. Yes, people can submit a story in any condition they choose, and the worse it is, the less likely it is to get published. So I guess my complaint is about the voters, (and now I'm going offend everyone and alienate myself on the forums, $:-\$ ) But I think that people might be a little too lenient in this contest. Yes, there are some great ideas in this contest that are very poorly presented. But praising these stories for the idea, while not offering criticism on the grammar or other issues that hurt the story, and advancing those stories in the contest, don't help the author. (And no, this rant is not because some badly written stories advanced over mine. My story failed itself and I thank everyone for helping me to see the many errors in it,

)

You know, in the end, the three stories that win will be the best written, there's no doubt in my mind. So this rant really means nothing because I don't honestly believe that any story will win that doesn't deserve to. My apologies if I've offended any of you. I think perhaps contest fatigue has caught up with me.

As for professional authors in this contest, sadly, I am not among Nathan's thirty percent. My greatest publishing feat thus far is two Honorable Mentions in Writers of the Future. Some day...

eytanz · **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2012, 11:00:16 PM

I don't think most voters here are particularly concerned about whether or not their votes "help the author". They vote for the stories they like best.

eytanz · **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2012, 12:20:49 AM

Ok, ok - time to settle down. No-one has to agree with Cutter's original rant or follow-up post. But he didn't name any specific stories, commenters, or authors, or made personal remarks about anyone. He's making a general comment about the contest and expressing exasperation that not everyone agrees with his priorities, which is perhaps a bit immature, but it's perfectly within his rights to express. It's also perfectly fine that he chooses to separate his comments about particular stories from his more general rants, even if those stories triggered that rant.

And it's perfectly fine to attempt to sway other people's votes by posting one's opinions, as long as it's done within the general rules.

So as a reminder - you may not like what he has to say, but a general rant about the contest is acceptable, while a specific rant directed at a fellow forumite, even one that angered you, is not. If you want to express disagreement, there are better ways to do so, as practically everyone else on this thread did.

Bill · **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2012, 12:34:30 AM

I apologize, I didn't mean to come off that harsh or uncivil. I retracted my post. Thanks for your moderation eytanz.

Let me say this differently. I personally value story and a good voice.

Cutter McKay · **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2012, 01:35:17 AM

Quote from: Bill on October 22, 2012, 12:34:30 AM

I apologize, I didn't mean to come off that harsh or uncivil. I retracted my post. Thanks for your moderation eytanz.

Let me say this differently. I personally value story and a good voice.

Uh oh. I was afraid I may have pushed that a little too far. Bill, and anyone else, I apologize. I didn't see Bill's post before he pulled it, but it sounds like it was pretty harsh... and probably accurate. Thank you, eytanz, for the immaturity jab. Oh, the irony of my unprofessional rant about professionalism, hehe.

I honestly meant no offense. The purpose of this post was to open a conversation about the role proper grammar does, or should, play in this contest, and I pushed my own agenda more than intended. I really was simply trying to ask if anyone else thought grammar/punctuation/typos are as important as I think they are.

Anyone care to discuss? (If I promise to show a little maturity?

)

FireTurtle · **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2012, 02:23:19 AM

Well, this is at least a slightly more comfortable arena for discussion of the importance of grammar and proofreading than the slightly personal lambasting I got during the contest.

I would like to respond to this merely because I do believe that- much like we all tend to have different definitions of what constitutes science fiction, there is definitely a disparity over what makes a story acceptable in different eyes. (I would not use the term "professional". This is a contest that is being judged by one's writing and listening peers, not particularly by editor-gods, and as such, I would hope that people of all ability and stages would feel free to submit their work. Peers are different than editors. I learned that last contest, when several "professional" writers fell by the wayside as we of the hoi poloi rose through the ranks.)

When I examine a story, I read through it once just for pure enjoyment. I then ask myself several questions: (for example) Did it make sense? Did I care?
I then read again and examine closely the structural elements that lead to those feelings in order to lay flesh on the bones of my opinion, as it were.
Eggregious abuse of the English language will crop up on my naughty list, but its way down there. Linguistic errata are easily corrected. A story without arc or compelling characters or other somesuch important detail is dead on the page. If the story draws breath, if its heart beats, and its feet move (and yes I AM aware that I am likely missing an apostrophe

) then and only then, I worry about the small stuff.

Perhaps this is because I am so far divorced from any education in Elnglish as a written language. Perhaps this is because when I read, I rarely see the words on the page (this would involve far to long an explanation, just trust me). Perhaps this is because I fell in love with literature as a world of ideas and of artistry and I just don't give a flying monkey's butt if someone can't remember where the bloody apostrophe goes.

I'm different, you're different. Thank god for that, or life would be abysmally boring and no one would ever think of anything new. You read a story and get all twisted up on dangling past present participles or what not and I read a story and get all bent out of shape if the plot arc doesn't exist or the characters are poorly written. Tada. Everyone wins.

Sincerely,
FireTurtle.

Please do not smite me for any grammatical or spelling or punctuation errors that may have occured above. I am not about to spell-check and grammar-check what I write in a forum. Life is far to precious and far to short. Pthbtt.

Scattercat · **Reply #11 on:** October 22, 2012, 03:03:56 AM

For the contest, I suspect a fair number of entries were written in a sort of last-minute panic, so I'm a lot more forgiving of grammar flubs and just kind of skim past them as much as I can.

On the other hand, if you're planning on submitting anything for realsies to me in any of my official editorial capacities, well, if you're not good at grammar then find someone who is, 'cause Homey don't play that game. Grammar and formatting are your appearance online; if you can't be arsed to make yourself look presentable when you come to my office, why should I bother to interview you as closely as my other candidates? There are many, many times more authors than can possibly be published by all of the paying markets put together; you have to be prepared to make it over some hurdles if you want to pull ahead of the crowd, and "writing and formatting your story correctly" is a pretty gosh-darned low hurdle.

Quote from: Umbrageofsnow on October 21, 2012, 07:05:34 PM

Nathan, I realize you've got several million more important things to do, but I'm sure those of us with a story still in the running are curious which 30% you think are professional.

Ain't sayin'.

FireTurtle · **Reply #12 on:** October 22, 2012, 03:57:22 AM

Quote from: Scattercat on October 22, 2012, 03:03:56 AM

Grammar and formatting are your appearance online; if you can't be arsed to make yourself look presentable when you come to my office, why should I bother to interview you as closely as my other candidates? There are many, many times more authors than can possibly be published by all of the paying markets put together; you have to be prepared to make it over some hurdles if you want to pull ahead of the crowd, and "writing and formatting your story correctly" is a pretty gosh-darned low hurdle.

Here in the forum, I am not a professional. I am a passer-by and a voice in the crowd. In my job, small errors kill people. So, in the fora I attend, small errors are....perhaps a rebellion of sorts.

To be sure, if ever I am luckily enough to be in your "office" as myself, I will be wearing gloves, skirt, blouse, and hat and be using proper English, and be holding my teacup with my pinky finger curled in.
When I submit things "professionally", I don't expect forgiveness for any errors, large or small.

Cutter was sort of angsting over what makes a story work from a grammatical angle. As a fellow voter and submitter I was merely replying to those issues- NOT suggesting that professionalism (in this context, spell-checking, grammar, proof reading, etc.) isn't important in a professional setting. Because kids, it is.

Now shutting up because piling more words on my grave really isn't digging me out.

Fenrix · **Reply #13 on:** October 22, 2012, 04:16:17 AM

As an assistant editor, a grammatical or spelling error in the first sentence will almost certainly doom a story to rejection. One in the first paragraph is certain peril. If the writer can hook me enough past that point I may let it pass for a good enough story.

The forums I treat a bit differently, but I'm not sure about the stories in this contest. I can't think of anything grammatical/spelling so far that's really pressed my negative editorial buttons.

The translation to an audio medium button has been pressed several times. The volunteer army has enough to do, I don't like to create more work by passing something forward that will require rewrites or major production touches to be effective.

DoWhileNot · **Reply #14 on:** October 22, 2012, 04:25:20 AM

Quote from: Scattercat on October 22, 2012, 03:03:56 AM

For the contest, I suspect a fair number of entries were written in a sort of last-minute panic, so I'm a lot more forgiving of grammar flubs and just kind of skim past them as much as I can.

Quote from: Umbrageofsnow on October 21, 2012, 07:05:34 PM
Nathan, I realize you've got several million more important things to do, but I'm sure those of us with a story still in the running are curious which 30% you think are professional.

Ain't sayin'.

So, as one of the amateurs who sat down the day before the due date, wrote the story on my phone, read it outloud once to my family and then submitted it as the first thing I've ever submitted anywhere, this discussion is making me feel really pretty good because the story is still in the running. I had one glaring spelling mistake, but considering I'm dyslexic I'm feeling pretty good about that. I know the quality of stories I'm up against and I guess all I can say is that I'm honored to be included in with the group - I don't expect to win, but to have run alongside, keeping pace with you guys has been a very big confidence booster.

This may have been the first thing I submitted, but it's not going to be the last.

eytanz · **Reply #15 on:** October 22, 2012, 03:30:38 PM

Quote from: Cutter McKay on October 22, 2012, 01:35:17 AM

Thank you, eytanz, for the immaturity jab.

Sorry about that. I really shouldn't moderate at 1.30am.

-----------

On topic:

I think I approach the issue of typos in submissions based both on the fact that I'm a slush reader, and that in my day job I have to read and mark student essays. You very quickly get a sense of what errors are a result of the writer not caring about spelling and grammar, versus errors that just slip in. Normally, the former is closely correlated to deeper issues as well. It's very rare to find a story (or student paper) that's really executed on every level *except* the spelling and grammar (excluding some cases where people have serious dyslexia or other learning disabilities).

In this contest, I think there were only very few entries where I would attribute the errors to a dismissive attitude on behalf of the writer as opposed to rushing to meet the deadline and not having time for a proper proofread. And I don't believe any of those entries survived to the semi-finals. Though because I'm not voting, I haven't read the stories quite as closely as some of you have, so I may be wrong.

Max e^{i pi} · **Reply #16 on:** October 22, 2012, 04:02:10 PM

I'd like to blame the Age of Information for this.
It is entirely too easy to adjust a relaxed attitude to spelling and grammar when we are so busy writing little snippets all the time. B it those damned txt msgs or the 140 chrctr limit, we as a species have become lazy at expressing our thoughts in the written (typed) media.
I caught myself doing just that, spelling badly, ignoring grammar and such on IRC. When I noticed that it had begun to degrade my "real" writing and was making me look immature and callous, I stopped. I am the only person I know who capitalizes every single line in IRC, properly uses punctuation and (almost) always uses properly formed sentences.
I'm not saying this to show off, but I'm saying it because of a direct consequence: when I gave my manuscript to my mother to proof (she's an English teacher) she had much to say about the content (she is not a scifi fan) but not a single grammatical or typo correction.

Oh, and nobody is perfect. Least of all me

I just read my story again, really looking for mistakes this time, and I found one. I won't say what it is, because my story is still in the competition.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that good habits pay off. If you regularly make the effort to write properly and "professionally" then you'll have fewer mistakes.

Unblinking · **Reply #17 on:** October 22, 2012, 04:34:15 PM

Quote from: Max e^{i pi} on October 22, 2012, 04:02:10 PM

Anyway, what I'm saying is that good habits pay off. If you regularly make the effort to write properly and "professionally" then you'll have fewer mistakes.

True true! I capitalize and punctuate text messages on my phone, as well as emails.

DoWhileNot · **Reply #18 on:** October 22, 2012, 04:43:03 PM

I agree - I think that one of the benefits of dyslexia for me is that I can't just whip something out and trust that it will be readable - I have 'slow down and double check everything' built into me, and like you, I write all my text messages as correctly as possible. It helps that most of the people I text do the same.

MCWagner · **Reply #19 on:** October 22, 2012, 04:55:44 PM

Quote from: Unblinking on October 22, 2012, 04:34:15 PM

True true! I capitalize and punctuate text messages on my phone, as well as emails.

Same here: I consider it a point of honor to (at least briefly) review and revise texts I send out, as well as properly punctuate and spell them. You'd be surprised how quickly people consider you intelligent just because you text in complete sentences.

Chuk · **Reply #20 on:** October 22, 2012, 05:06:43 PM

I think everything should always have proper spelling, punctuation, and grammar. (And I also have kids who text a lot...the two things do not go together well.) In a less formal forum contest like this, I would try to overlook typo-class errors, but anything that makes me have to struggle to figure out what the author is trying to say is a mark against a story.
I may also be subconsciously biased against stories with grammar/spelling/punctuation problems, and I know if I thought two stories were equal but one looked like it had been proofread and the other didn't, I'd pick the one that did.

Scattercat · **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2012, 09:42:11 PM

I take care in things like forum posts, though I freely indulge in the colloquial and what one might call idiosyncratic grammar where I feel it necessary to make my point.

In chat, I usually but don't always punctuate, and initial capitals depend largely on whim and whether I have a baby in my lap. Half the time the next "message" I send is just an extension of the previous sentence that just occurred to me, so an initial capital wouldn't even be grammatically appropriate.

DoWhileNot · **Reply #22 on:** October 22, 2012, 10:05:30 PM

I think what it is, is that coloquial language in fiction usually belongs inbetween quotes, and when we're texting, we're writing what would be dialog in fiction, so in an effort to have a text message that has your voice, it would be fine to take shortcuts. At least that's what I think.

Cutter McKay · **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2012, 01:42:07 PM

I've actually gone so far as to tell certain friends that I would no longer respond to their text messages unless they employed the use of proper grammar and punctuation because I got tired of having to decipher their run-on sentences and thought fragments.

Maybe this is a bit extreme, but personally I see text shorthand as the slow and inevitable death of the English language. How many kids these days can't spell or write even a basic complete sentence because all they know is text shorthand?

Bill · **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2012, 01:46:41 PM

For work I'm forced to spend more time on Twitter than I would prefer. I find it is eroding my communication skills.