However, even though palimpsest's point may not have been directed staight at my point, it's unfair to tell Tad that he miscontrued your motivation - the context was there. Yes, palimpsest, you definitely outlined your point clearly later on, but three pages of posting is alot to go through.
The context was there for a lot of things. If you thought it was mean-spirited, maybe you should think about why that is.
I also want to point out that I haven't seen comments about the impact of androgenous handle. I have no problem with them, but does anyone else think are they, in part, a contributer to this mental image creation/assumption we are talking about?
No.
Not unless your androgynous handle is equally problematic. And in fact, it is more transgressive for me to refuse to mark my gender, when my gender is non-default, than it is for you to mark yours.
Someone mentioned the lack of response from the general public about mixed-race couples on TV now - would this be happened as quickly if shows like Star Trek (in general, Kirk kissing Uhura, specifically) or the Jeffersons hid it away - had it off camera?
You're assuming that I am hiding my identity off camera.
Are you hiding your identity off camera by not putting a male identifier in your name?
you're holding me to a different standard than you hold yourself to, Slic. You're buying into the idea that woman is other, and indeed asking me to specifically other myself at every turn. I ask you to remember that people online can be male or female; you reply that I should make my gender obvious so you don't have to think about it?
Not buying.
As for the "white man" not suffering, well, I will agree with palimpsest's points as to what I don't suffer from, but I will also raise the point that ours is a different burden. We are excluded, blamed, harrassed when we don't follow the "path" society lays out for us.
I'm not excluded, blamed, or harrassed when I don't follow the path society lays out for me? If I am, and I believe I am, than I don't see how your burden is "different."
I would also like to say that from what I've read of the other posters, it seems we are preaching to the converted for the most part - that Tad also made a good point in that the Sci-Fi crowd is much more open to the different than other people (is that sterotype or statistical liklihood )
No, I think the SF community likes to pat itself on the back for being open-minded. The rate of publciations for women and minorities don't back it up. SF is not more signficantly open to the voices of women and minorities than literary communities. When Fantasy magazine makes a move to be more open to women's voices, it gets slammed for doing so. Black writers have also discussed at length their marginalization within "progressive" communities. Many writers, including Tom Disch, have made blatant comments about women's role -- or lack thereof -- in SF. He believes women like Ursula LeGuin and Vonda McIntyre "soften the field."
In fact, there are a lot of discussions about ways in which sexism is tolerated within science fiction communities where it isn't tolerated elsewhere. Sexual harrassment is a common problem at cons. I'm not going to reconstruct the wheel for you, but start with Kameron Hurley's Brutal Women and read through the Feminist Science Fiction and Fantasy Blog.
Actually, I could have this conversation with my friends in my MFA program, and they would say "Oh, but this is preaching to the choir. Our community is liberal. It's communities like SF, bastions of masculinity, where the prejudice lies."
You're both wrong.
I also fail to see, where if you are "converted," you are accepting that I, as a woman, have as much right to be treated as a woman and a person simultaneously without adhering to special and separate rules, as you have to be treated as a man and a person simultaneously without adhering ot special and separate rules.
Updated for Clarity:I do think we're talking to the choir in some ways, like I bet we'd all agree that women should have the right to vote, and that women aren't dumber than men, and that women should be allowed to work. That's definitely something. There are communities that don't believe in these things.
I bet we might even be able to push it further -- most of us probably support abortion, and think that raping an unconscious woman is wrong, and support women veterans, and think it's unfortunate there isn't more representation of women in local and national government.
Those positions make us allies on some extremely important issues. I appreciate you standing by me, and I hope to stand by you on others. I know there are a lot of veterans and men in service here, and I stand by your need for better medical services when you get home, faster diagnosis of problems, and payment for your sacrifices and handicaps. I stand by your need to be well-equipped in the field. From there, our politics may separate.
But just as veterans rights don't end with "support our troops," women's rights don't end with acceptance into Harvard Law school. There are a lot of other issues that face women, as an othered class, in this country. I appreciate you standing by me in a belief that women can be as talented and able as men, but I will still call you out on finer points, points where we disagree. You are an ally of mine in some ways, but we do not hold the same positions in others.
This is where I disagree that I am speaking to the converted; in many ways, I feel that I -- and, I would note, the other women who have joined the conversation, that I know of, Ana, Haut, and Cat -- are arguing about the way we feel percieved and treated, and that we are having those perceptions written off as "mean-spirited" as "manufactured offense" -- although the term was withdrawn -- as our fault or as untrue.
Women often find that men will tell them what is true about their experience and what isn't, just as minorities often find that whites will tell them the same -- including, for instance, what it's okay to comment on, or be annoyed by, or even offended at. When I run into this problem with a black friend, I try to step back and remember that I am not living their experience, but I am taught by the media that it's okay for me to mediate it, because white is "objective" and black is "other." A lot of my reactions often come from a guilty place, a place that says "don't be mad at me, it's not my fault!" and I listen to that place, rather than listening to how I have affected them. I step back and try to listen to what they're saying. Only on very, very few occasions have I found I disagree at root, once I sweep away my urge to judge their reality and my guilt beneath it.
