Author Topic: Should SF be fun? (from: EP390: Cerbo un Vitra ujo)  (Read 22828 times)

matweller

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on: April 10, 2013, 04:36:58 PM
I'm not asking this to be snotty or defensive, I'm really seeking for my personal clarification. Science fiction is supposed to be fun? It's been paired with horror for as long as there have been names for the genres.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 10:45:44 AM by eytanz »



eytanz

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Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 04:59:45 PM
I'm not asking this to be snotty or defensive, I'm really seeking for my personal clarification. Science fiction is supposed to be fun? It's been paired with horror for as long as there have been names for the genres.

I don't think anyone is saying the Science Fiction is supposed to be fun. But Escape Pod's original mission statement was to be a venue of fun speculative fiction, and while the emphasis on fun as the primary criteria for story selection has decreased, I don't know that EP ever really gave it up completely - the submission guidelines still express a preference for fun stories.

So I don't think Kaa (and others) were arguing that this story is not SF because it's not fun, they were saying it's not the SF that EP used to publish.



Kaa

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Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 05:51:22 PM
So I don't think Kaa (and others) were arguing that this story is not SF because it's not fun, they were saying it's not the SF that EP used to publish.

Yes, exactly that. I forget that not everyone has been around since the Days of Yore™. Why, some of you whippersnappers have only been listening since 2006! Back in my day, we had to download the stories using homing pigeons! And we liked it!

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Scumpup

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Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 06:44:00 PM
You had homing pigeons? Luxury!



chemistryguy

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Reply #4 on: April 10, 2013, 06:51:22 PM
Back in my day, we had to download the stories using homing pigeons! And we liked it!

I'm just picturing these huge carrier pigeons, bred for strength and endurance, carting sacks of data punch cards to and fro.

Aren't you glad we finally devised these convenient floppy discs?


matweller

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Reply #5 on: April 10, 2013, 08:59:38 PM
Back in my day, we had to download the stories using homing pigeons! And we liked it!

I'm just picturing these huge carrier pigeons, bred for strength and endurance, carting sacks of data punch cards to and fro.

Aren't you glad we finally devised these convenient floppy discs?

And then AOL sent them to everybody. Eighty times.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 09:21:00 PM by matweller »



matweller

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Reply #6 on: April 10, 2013, 09:20:31 PM
So I don't think Kaa (and others) were arguing that this story is not SF because it's not fun, they were saying it's not the SF that EP used to publish.

Yes, exactly that. I forget that not everyone has been around since the Days of Yore™. Why, some of you whippersnappers have only been listening since 2006! Back in my day, we had to download the stories using homing pigeons! And we liked it!

</oldandcrotchety>

I guess I would argue that there are different degrees and kinds of 'fun.' We do lighthearted a lot, we do cyberpunk and steampunk, we do military and spaceships and pulp -- all of them 'fun', not all of them including pudding monsters and aliens that fart flowers.



eytanz

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Reply #7 on: April 10, 2013, 10:41:18 PM
So I don't think Kaa (and others) were arguing that this story is not SF because it's not fun, they were saying it's not the SF that EP used to publish.

Yes, exactly that. I forget that not everyone has been around since the Days of Yore™. Why, some of you whippersnappers have only been listening since 2006! Back in my day, we had to download the stories using homing pigeons! And we liked it!

</oldandcrotchety>

I guess I would argue that there are different degrees and kinds of 'fun.' We do lighthearted a lot, we do cyberpunk and steampunk, we do military and spaceships and pulp -- all of them 'fun', not all of them including pudding monsters and aliens that fart flowers.

Well yeah, but who said anything like that? People were saying that this story isn't fun, not that there's only a narrow definition of fun that all stories must meet.



Peevester

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Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 12:39:47 AM
I'm not asking this to be snotty or defensive, I'm really seeking for my personal clarification. Science fiction is supposed to be fun? It's been paired with horror for as long as there have been names for the genres.

Ridiculous. The two got sorta-kinda related in the 50s with monster and alien invasion movies, but that's after the first golden age of the genre, which had nothing much to do with horror. And even then, many of those movies weren't SF as much as they were Red Scare paranoia wearing a shiny suit.

Science fiction doesn't have to be fun, but it certainly shouldn't be horror with spaceships, which is all this was. And it wasn't even GOOD horror - it played every cheap card in the deck to make you uncomfortable. After listening to it, I felt dirty and manipulated to feel dirty. I do not appreciate that.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 12:46:28 AM by Peevester »



InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #9 on: April 11, 2013, 12:58:42 AM
I'm not asking this to be snotty or defensive, I'm really seeking for my personal clarification. Science fiction is supposed to be fun? It's been paired with horror for as long as there have been names for the genres.

Ridiculous. The two got sorta-kinda related in the 50s with monster and alien invasion movies, but that's after the first golden age of the genre, which had nothing much to do with horror. And even then, many of those movies weren't SF as much as they were Red Scare paranoia wearing a shiny suit.


I would have to disagree. Alien wasn't exactly Red Scare paranoia wearing a shiny suit. Nor was Leviathan Wakes, or the short-story biological SF horror of Octavia Butler or George R.R. Martin ("Sandkings" scared the hell out of me so effectively that I didn't read anything of his until two years ago when it became nearly impossible to avoid his fantasy).



matweller

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Reply #10 on: April 11, 2013, 02:24:10 AM
I apologize. I've been getting overwhelmed by some common themes I've been seeing in most/all of these story threads for the past year and more, and I need to back off again for a while.

I'm someone who pretty much immerses completely to a story's universe and am willing to accept that there isn't time to explain every detail, and that some things, while distasteful, are also beautiful. So when I walk out of the mental theater into a gathering of my fellow "viewers" and find out nobody had the same experience, it makes me sad.

It's funny, but critiques about the technical aspects that I control don't bother me, but when the validity of the art (for which I am really just another audience member) is called into question on a completely subjective basis, I get itchy.

I'm not asking this to be snotty or defensive, I'm really seeking for my personal clarification. Science fiction is supposed to be fun? It's been paired with horror for as long as there have been names for the genres.

Ridiculous. The two got sorta-kinda related in the 50s with monster and alien invasion movies, but that's after the first golden age of the genre, which had nothing much to do with horror. And even then, many of those movies weren't SF as much as they were Red Scare paranoia wearing a shiny suit.


You think Sci-fi has only been around since the 50s and I'm ridiculous? I didn't mean that sci fi is only ever paired with horror. I meant that the genres have often been overlapped within stories for time immemorial. Arguably, the ancient myths, in their time, were sci-fi stories and almost all of those contain horror on levels ranging from passive to friggin' gruesome.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 02:26:31 AM by matweller »



Peevester

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Reply #11 on: April 11, 2013, 02:29:33 PM
You think Sci-fi has only been around since the 50s and I'm ridiculous?

WHAT?! Maybe that sentence wasn't entirely clear. What I said was that Horror and SF got a bit connected to each other starting in the 50s, but the 50s was already after the first golden age of SF.

Quote
I didn't mean that sci fi is only ever paired with horror. I meant that the genres have often been overlapped within stories for time immemorial. Arguably, the ancient myths, in their time, were sci-fi stories and almost all of those contain horror on levels ranging from passive to friggin' gruesome.

Just cause it's got monsters, doesn't mean it's SF, unless you're lumping fantasy into SF. If that's what you're doing, OK, I can accept that's a difficult distinction, but then I don't think this story belongs on podcastle, either.

I have to say, I don't think there would be anything wrong with having this story on pseudopod, or maybe a better flat-out warning that it's "deadly dark" horror. There's nothing wrong with dark - my favorite fantasy series are the Thomas Covenant books, and rape plays a scene front and center in that series (in fact, that rape is the one thing that Covenant can never get away from, even 9 books later. The whole series springs from that one horrible moment). And that's my major complaint with this story - that the rape doesn't have any consequences, it's just another check box in the "bad guy is bad" column.

--
Note to moderator - I wasn't arguing the difference between horror and SF, just disputing the claim that the two are intimately tied together as a reason why this story flies on Escape Pod. I don't think we have an actual dispute here, just an honest misunderstanding about what the other is saying. Group hug?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 02:47:39 PM by Peevester »



eytanz

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Reply #12 on: April 12, 2013, 10:59:26 AM
Quote
Note to moderator - I wasn't arguing the difference between horror and SF, just disputing the claim that the two are intimately tied together as a reason why this story flies on Escape Pod. I don't think we have an actual dispute here, just an honest misunderstanding about what the other is saying. Group hug?

I understand your aims, but your post still mostly discusses genre and your expectations of it, and responds to a post that I requested not be responded to in that thread. To be honest, the question of "why was this particular episode on Escape Pod?" is one that is never an interesting one - the episode was on Escape Pod because the editors chose it. If you were an editor, you may have chosen differently, but it is not reasonable to expect the editors to always make the decisions you'd agree with. If you don't think a specific episode belonged, well, another one will come for the same low price of free the next week. If you think that the editors are consistently making decisions you dislike, perhaps EP is not the podcast for you. The episode threads are for feedback about the content of the episodes, not about the editorial policies or decisions of Escape Pod - those topics belong in the "about EP" board and you'll find threads to discuss both there. (Note: although this answer started out in response to Peevester, when I say "you" I'm talking to all forum members, not a specific one).

The general discussion about the relationship between SF and horror is an interesting one; the question about where to draw the genre lines as far as the podcasts go is not, and this has been both the forum and the podcast's stance since the early days of both.



Leslianne

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Reply #13 on: April 12, 2013, 12:14:39 PM
I'm curious how much overlap we'd get in responses if we asked members of the forum to list ten things they thought were great science fiction and five things they thought had been labeled science fiction even though they weren't.



Scattercat

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Reply #14 on: April 12, 2013, 01:27:24 PM
I find vicious, cynical, dark stories to be tremendous 'fun', personally.  I remember when my cineaste roommate insisted on showing us "The Godfather."  I kept chuckling, and then at the end, remarked, "Well, that was fun."  He gave me such a look...

Horror is a metagenre in that its primary defining feature is its ability to engender strong negative feelings in a controlled manner.  It's like "draconic."  You can have a lich or a draco-lich, a mage or a draco-mage, etc.  Darn shapeshifting dragons get all up in everything's business.



Scumpup

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Reply #15 on: April 12, 2013, 02:28:50 PM
I find vicious, cynical, dark stories to be tremendous 'fun', personally.  I remember when my cineaste roommate insisted on showing us "The Godfather."  I kept chuckling, and then at the end, remarked, "Well, that was fun."  He gave me such a look...

Are you able to identify what it is, specifically, about such stories that brings you enjoyment?



chemistryguy

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Reply #16 on: April 12, 2013, 06:29:20 PM
I'm curious how much overlap we'd get in responses if we asked members of the forum to list ten things they thought were great science fiction and five things they thought had been labeled science fiction even though they weren't.

Let's do it.  Are you referring to categories (i.e. time travel, robots, etc.) or the names of actual books/movies?



Fenrix

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Reply #17 on: April 12, 2013, 07:29:14 PM
I'm curious how much overlap we'd get in responses if we asked members of the forum to list ten things they thought were great science fiction and five things they thought had been labeled science fiction even though they weren't.

Let's do it.  Are you referring to categories (i.e. time travel, robots, etc.) or the names of actual books/movies?



Should this threadjack get broken off into its own separate thread? I'm gonna have to think about my response...

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


Scattercat

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Reply #18 on: April 12, 2013, 10:44:23 PM
I find vicious, cynical, dark stories to be tremendous 'fun', personally.  I remember when my cineaste roommate insisted on showing us "The Godfather."  I kept chuckling, and then at the end, remarked, "Well, that was fun."  He gave me such a look...

Are you able to identify what it is, specifically, about such stories that brings you enjoyment?

Indeed I am!

For one thing, I am extremely cynical.  I trust people to choose the stupid option unless there is a greedy option, and the greedy option unless there is a stupid AND greedy option.  So dark stories let me go, "Yup, pretty much."

Secondly, I enjoy good thematic architecture.  "The Godfather" has a lovely cyclical structure.  Feel-good stories and whiz-bang adventures tend to not have that quite so much.  (And obviously dark doesn't mean good theme building; look at the hilariously stupid thematic structure of the Saw films, for instance.)



chemistryguy

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Reply #19 on: April 15, 2013, 06:30:04 PM
Horror is a metagenre in that its primary defining feature is its ability to engender strong negative feelings in a controlled manner.

I agree with you here.  Asking if SF should be fun is kind of a silly question.  Horror is perhaps an inappropriate term to signify a darkness vs. lightness continuum inherent within all writing. 

Labeling a story as horror might entail staying on the dark side of the spectrum, but at its core can be fantasy, sf or anything else.  And there is no quantifiable data we can call on to differentiate between the two.  I really don't think its even a linear scale!

Anyway people, feel free to argue otherwise.  I hope to have some intelligent discourse here.  I stopped posting on the thread that spawned this one simply because of people making troll-like comments.  I found it difficult to take many of the outbursts seriously.  Really, if some of you don't want emotional involvement, go read a math book.

[/rant]



Devoted135

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Reply #20 on: April 15, 2013, 06:54:44 PM
I agree that asking if SF should be fun is a silly question. Actually the comment that sparked this was asking "should SF run on Escape Pod be fun."

After all, that was the stated mission that started the whole thing. Of course, we are now several editors later and yet it seems that the "fun factor" is still at least one part of the equation when stories are chosen. Personally, I expect that in any given month we will hear some "fun" SF stories, but that there might also be some thought-provoking, introspective, or even slightly disturbing stories as well. And I wouldn't have it any other way, because only having "fun" stories would be awfully limiting.



Devoted135

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Reply #21 on: April 15, 2013, 06:57:31 PM

Labeling a story as horror might entail staying on the dark side of the spectrum, but at its core can be fantasy, sf or anything else.  And there is no quantifiable data we can call on to differentiate between the two.  I really don't think its even a linear scale!


I absolutely agree. In my book, horror has nothing to do with the setting/scene trappings and everything to do with the response the author is attempting to provoke. As such, the setting might be SF, fantasy, or mundane, or anything in between.



Peevester

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Reply #22 on: April 15, 2013, 08:52:17 PM
decisions you'd agree with. If you don't think a specific episode belonged, well, another one will come for the same low price of free the next week.

Wait, what? I am talking about this story, singular, and in fact I defended the casts for playing it in the other thread (just that I hated it). Also, I am a contributor, so that last line is rather tacky. What's with the attitude?



eytanz

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Reply #23 on: April 15, 2013, 09:29:05 PM
As I stated in the message itself, even though I was using a reply to your post as my starting point, my actual post was aimed at the discussion in general, not at you personally. The sentence you post was part of my general response to things people said in this thread, not to you.

As for whether or not the post was on topic - it started out with a discussion of SF and horror in general, a topic I explicitly said, as moderator, should not be continued in that thread. It then proceeds to mention the episode several times, but in the context of arguing where it belongs relative to other stories - to me it still felt more like a discussion of genre using the particular story as an example, not a discussion of the story. That was a judgment call on my behalf, but when I split a thread I can't split posts in half or duplicate them, so I had to make a decision, and frankly, since the beginning of the post specifically did something I said shouldn't be done in that thread, the rest of the content was not particularly important in making that decision.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 09:48:12 PM by eytanz »



InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #24 on: April 15, 2013, 11:52:03 PM
Labeling a story as horror might entail staying on the dark side of the spectrum, but at its core can be fantasy, sf or anything else. 

For my money the most horrifying horror story I have read was NON-fiction, Preston's The Hot Zone.