Neoconservatism

[ClintMemo]

Eley in 2008, Promises not to derail us further!

Heh.  Thanks, but I'll only be 34 next year, and therefore constitutionally ineligible.  Write in Ze Frank instead.  >8->

Then it's not too early to start planning for 2012.

"Vote Eley in 2012 on the Podcast platform."
Any thoughts on potential cabinet positions?
How about the Word Whore for Press Secretary? 
or Frank Keys for Secretary of State?  (That whole accent thing sure worked for Kissinger.)

[lowky]

Scott Sigler as Secretary of De(off)ense.

[ClintMemo]

"Noecons" have very little to do with conservatism.  Conservatives believe in limited government, responsible fiscal policy and individual rights.  Neocons apparently believe in running huge deficits and taking the rights away from people if it gets in the way of keeping themselves in power.  BTW, W's gov't is the biggest in the history of the US, so what dos that say about limited government.

Here is good, though subjective, article that talks about this in more detail.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/03/29/brooks/index.html

[Russell Nash]

That said democracy is about subjugating the minority's to majority opinion so I have no problems with religious groups or non religious groups enacting their democratic rights.

Does that mean it's OK to try to get there religious beliefs turned into law even when the majority do not belong to that religion?

Yes.  Thats democratic process.  In terms of democracy it's no differn't to any other "group" trying to get thier wants and desires into law.

Republicans always have a problem understanding the Bill of Rights

Amendment I

Freedoms, Petitions, Assembly

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

First part means. Practice what you want, but you can't use the law to force it on me. Unfortunately, it says nothing about televangelists.

[ClintMemo]

First part means. Practice what you want, but you can't use the law to force it on me. Unfortunately, it says nothing about televangelists.

Televangelists are to religion what Professional Wrestlers are to sports.  The big difference being that with professional wrestling, the audience knows it's all just a show.

[Swamp]

Republicans always have a problem understanding the Bill of Rights

Russell, you seem to enjoy using sweeping generalizations and condescension.

Unfortunately, it says nothing about televangelists.

I certainly hope you do not base your opinion of people with religious beliefs on the insanity of televangelism.

Amendment I

Freedoms, Petitions, Assembly

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I believe FHN was referring to people’s right to vote their moral conscience based on their religious beliefs, not making religious beliefs the law.  (and so you don’t think I am talking about Intelligent Design, I do not believe this should be taught in public schools either).

I know of no law that makes it illegal not to follow a certain religion, or any religion for that matter.  However, I do see an increasing number of lawsuits trying to prohibit religious expression.

[ClintMemo]

Republicans always have a problem understanding the Bill of Rights

Ironically, that really only applies to this current group for neocons, who have identified themselves as Republicans and just happened to be in power.   During the last century or so, it's the left that has been mostly accused of trampling on people's rights. (Ex: How many anti-gun advocates do you see that are Republicans?)

One of Reagan's positions was that we needed a government that was smaller and less involved in people's lives.  Much of the power transfer that has happened from the legislative branch to the executive branch started with FDR.  Note that no president since then has willingly given any of it back. 

W has done something I never thought possible. He has made me think of Reagan as a good president.  I HATED Reagan when he was in office. Now I wish I had him back instead of W.

[ClintMemo]

And just to clarify, the US is not and never has been a democracy.  It is a constitutional republic.  In a democracy, people would vote for law directly.  Some of the ancient Greek city states (Athens?) actually did things this way, though not everyone was allowed to vote.  In a republic, people elect other people to make decisions for them.  The constitution is supposed to outline what powers each of the branches of government have.  Originally, most of the power sat with the legislative branch.  The president was supposed to be an administrator that executed the will of congress. His power to veto was a check to ensure that congress did not get out of control.  What has happened over time is that congress has decided to solve problems be passing laws to create agencies to address issues and assigning the president the responsibility of managing those agencies.  It's not hard to see where this has led.

[RichGarner]

Amendment I

Freedoms, Petitions, Assembly

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The way I read this is that we cannot make a law that forces you to go to church or to pray or accept Christian holiday material at your place of work or so on.

But this also tells me that we cannot make a law that prevents you from going to church, or praying, or accepting Christian holiday material or so on.

If I read that correctly, can someone please explain to me why my children are prevented from praying in school but are forced to learn about homosexuality in class??? And please don't mention the church/state thing. The Bill of Rights applies to all Americans... state-runners and church-goers alike.

[Swamp]

can someone please explain to me why my children are prevented from praying in school...

Maybe you can educate me here.  Are there actually any laws that prevent your child from saying a personal prayer while at school?  Prayers do not have to be heard by all or publically expressed.  Prayer is a very personal thing.  If your child said an unobtrusive silent prayer before a test or before eating lunch, would anyone really object?  Is he/she prevented from sharing their personal religious beliefs with their friends?

[RichGarner]

My youngest boys only pray outloud. They do this because we have taught they how to pray and they usually follow our examples. But they have also grown up in a family and among a very large church group that teaches we always pray before meals.

I'm not expecting the schools to force all kids to pray, but I think it is within their ability to allow a brief time for optional prayer. Kids are reminded to put their coats on the hook, bring their books to their desk, do their work silently, bring their money to the lunch room, and clean up when they make a mess... is it really such a huge stretch to remind the kids that, if they wish, now is the time for a silent prayer.

And yes. Sometimes, when my kids pray to themselves, either the teacher interrupts them with something or the kids tease them.

I agree that there is no "expressed" prevention of prayer... but there seems to be an assumed prevention shared by most of the teachers I know.

[Swamp]

I see where you are coming from.  Of our four kids, my oldest daughter is the only one going to school right now (1st grade).  We pray as a family in the morning before she goes to school; and we have taught her that if she is having a hard time with something she is learning, she can always say a prayer for help.  She hasn't reported any teasing or interference from the teacher.  That doesn't mean it didn't happen to your kids.

Still, I think it would be hard, and inappropriate, to mandate that teachers of every class in every public school set aside a time for optional prayer.  Of course, an individual teacher also should not be prevented from doing so at their discretion, as long as they are not proselyting.  This would not violate "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

[Heradel]

From the one-year-out-of-public-school perspective:

Virginia requires a minute of silence at the beginning of the school day, right before the Pledge of Allegiance. Having gone from K-12 in Northern Virginia public schools, I cannot recall any incidents of actually seeing anyone trying to pray during that minute. Granted, my memories of the k-6 years are hazy, but honestly most of us were just trying to talk for a bit before class started.

That said, in high school I did see some students pray (pretty uniformly silently) before lunch (those few times I was eating in the cafeteria), but they were by far in the minority (out of about 1600 students, maybe 30). This was in a highly diverse (~43% white, 15% black, 25% hispanic, rest asian/misc) school. Incidentally the school's usually around 17-30 in Newsweek's top 50 High Schools, so~.

I'm an Atheist and it never really bothered me, except for the waste that was the minute of silence. It might not seem like much out of a day, but in a 45-minute class... well, it's time that's usually just wasted. And honestly Kmmrlatham, good teachers need that time to teach. The point of school is to teach and learn, not pray.

[lowky]

W has done something I never thought possible. He has made me think of Reagan as a good president.  I HATED Reagan when he was in office. Now I wish I had him back instead of W.

Zombie Reagan with Alzheimers in 08, he's better than Dubya!

[Swamp]

And honestly Kmmrlatham, good teachers need that time to teach. The point of school is to teach and learn, not pray.

That's cool.  I was just trying to see where Rich was coming from with his experience.  I'm glad to hear yours.

[SFEley]

Republicans always have a problem understanding the Bill of Rights

Folks: let's not verge into insult here. 

I'm going to be gone for a week.  Please play nice.

[SFEley]

If I read that correctly, can someone please explain to me why my children are prevented from praying in school but are forced to learn about homosexuality in class???

Homosexuality is not a religious subject.  It's a human behavior that verifiably exists and is a fit subject for study in a psychology, sociology, biology, or health class.

The goal of education is to teach about the world.  I don't believe it's ever appropriate to suppress knowledge.  You don't get healthy, thinking human beings that way.  If you wish to guide your children in how to interpret the knowledge they gain from education, that's your purview.  But to maintain ignorance about the world and about the people in it for religious reasons...  Well, not only is that an inappropriate foundation for public education, but I also believe it ultimately hurts the religion involved. 

The way to get good spiritual leaders and good human beings is for them to know, understand, and empathize as much as possible.  With everyone.

[torchape]

More recently if you look at the dates Jan 1999-Jan 2001, you see the debt in the last two years of the Clinton administration went up 46 Billion dollars. Sounds like a lot, but from Jan.2005-Jan 2007 the debt went up 1.89 Trillion dollars. Last two years of Bush I (Sept 1990-Sept 1992) the debt went up 831 Billion dollars. Last two years of Reagan (sept 1986-Sept 1988) the debt went up 477 Billion. That was more than a 20% increase in two years. These numbers don't even take into account inflation(these are all unadjusted numbers) or the fact that each subsequent administration had to deal with the debt left behind by the previous one.

When you look at debt, income, and spending as a dollar amount, the numbers are staggering. But when these numbers are compared to other factors like Gross Domestic Product, they take on a much less ominous appearance. Reagan and Bush I did increase the percentage of debt/GDP from about 35% to near 70%during his administration. Clinton began to reduce that and got it all the way down to around 63%. It wasn't until Bush II's fourth year that his debt/GDP reached the level of Clinton's. I have the percentages at work but here I couldn't find the website that has all the percentages by year. The GDP has been growing at around 3% per quarter so the debt/GDP has remained around 66%. That is still too high, but at least it hasn't significantly increased since Reagan-Bush. Other nations are far worse off than we are. The average Euro level is about 80%. Japan's is 170%. Italy's is 107%. Our highest was in 1945 and was 121%. Looking at dollar amounts is meaningless unless it is compared to something else. My house here in Colorado is worth about $190,000 but, in Los Angeles, it would be worth $600,000.

[RichGarner]

If I read that correctly, can someone please explain to me why my children are prevented from praying in school but are forced to learn about homosexuality in class???

Homosexuality is not a religious subject.  It's a human behavior that verifiably exists and is a fit subject for study in a psychology, sociology, biology, or health class.

The goal of education is to teach about the world.  I don't believe it's ever appropriate to suppress knowledge.  You don't get healthy, thinking human beings that way.  If you wish to guide your children in how to interpret the knowledge they gain from education, that's your purview.  But to maintain ignorance about the world and about the people in it for religious reasons...  Well, not only is that an inappropriate foundation for public education, but I also believe it ultimately hurts the religion involved. 

The way to get good spiritual leaders and good human beings is for them to know, understand, and empathize as much as possible.  With everyone.

I completely agree. However there is a difference between teaching the concept of homosexuality and training children to regard it as universally accepted behavior. I have nothing against teaching my kids about the truths of life. But when schools teach against our religious beliefs by glorifying (for lack of a better word) homosexual practices as perfectly normal behavior, I take issue.

Don't misread me. I'm not saying that it should be removed from schools or that it should be suppressed in any way. But when it is taught as acceptable and normal but prayer is looked down on... there's something wrong there.

I'm waiting for a day when it's P.C. to be a Christian. I'm sure I'm in for a long wait.

[Heradel]

I completely agree. However there is a difference between teaching the concept of homosexuality and training children to regard it as universally accepted behavior. I have nothing against teaching my kids about the truths of life. But when schools teach against our religious beliefs by glorifying (for lack of a better word) homosexual practices as perfectly normal behavior, I take issue.

What do you mean by accepted? I think any public school has to teach that it's wrong to vilify any of it's students for who they are, be it along gender, race, orientation, etc. It would be as wrong to encourage the behavior, but acceptance of gay students (and gay teachers) is a Constitutional requirement, setting aside the obvious moral need.

No school I've been to has 'glorified' homosexuality. They also don't glorify heterosexuality. They teach that both happen, and it's wrong to exclude/tease/hurt/bully students because of that orientation. Glorifying would be them saying that it's better, but they don't. They just put them on an equal standing (which, I know, can be objectionable). I'd like it to the same way that they don't teach that blond hair is better than brown hair, or blue eyes better than brown eyes. Students don't have control over those (well, hair...), so schools need to make it so that it's not treated as something that matters. Same for skin color, gender, what side of the tracks you grew up on. 

I'm sure your children will have gay classmates. I did. I have gay friends, have had gay teachers, and a gay roommate for a bit at college. Your value system says that their romantic relationships are on a lower level than that of heterosexual relationships, but the school can't teach that. They can teach acceptance, and they have to. Otherwise those gay students will end up getting picked on. They probably will anyway. But the school has to do what it can.

Don't misread me. I'm not saying that it should be removed from schools or that it should be suppressed in any way. But when it is taught as acceptable and normal but prayer is looked down on... there's something wrong there.

It's not looked down upon, it's just not the function of school to be a place for prayer. Schools are a place for learning, not prayer.

I'm waiting for a day when it's P.C. to be a Christian. I'm sure I'm in for a long wait.

Just as I wait for a day when it's fine to run for the presidency openly as an Atheist.

[ClintMemo]

I'm waiting for a day when it's P.C. to be a Christian. I'm sure I'm in for a long wait.

Move here.  I live in Louisville, Ky. Where I live, it's socially acceptable to be a Christian.  It's not socially acceptable to be anything else.  I was born Catholic (but I'm in recovery now - hehe).  I'm about two baby steps away from declaring myself an atheist.  I'm not sure if it's due to a loss of faith or just an emotional reaction to my universally negative experiences with religion over the last several years.  I've taken a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with religion in my day to day life.

[RichGarner]

I'm waiting for a day when it's P.C. to be a Christian. I'm sure I'm in for a long wait.

Move here.  I live in Louisville, Ky. Where I live, it's socially acceptable to be a Christian.  It's not socially acceptable to be anything else.  I was born Catholic (but I'm in recovery now - hehe).  I'm about two baby steps away from declaring myself an atheist.  I'm not sure if it's due to a loss of faith or just an emotional reaction to my universally negative experiences with religion over the last several years.  I've taken a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with religion in my day to day life.

Cool.

About the KY thing... not the atheist thing.
I'll reserve my comments on that for a religious topic and return this topic to the neoconservative issue.

[ClintMemo]

About the KY thing... not the atheist thing.
I'll reserve my comments on that for a religious topic and return this topic to the neoconservative issue.

Unfortunately, those two topics are so intermangled that you can't talk about Neoconservatism without talking about religion.

[FNH]

Homosexuality is not a religious subject.  It's a human behavior that verifiably exists and is a fit subject for study in a psychology, sociology, biology, or health class.

What on Earth is there to study on that particular subject?  I wouldn't want children having any sexual education from any Institution.  My experience is that schools teach sex, without any thoughts of love, responsibility or consequence.  Way too cold. 

The way to get good spiritual leaders and good human beings is for them to know, understand, and empathize as much as possible.  With everyone.

Almost with you there. Rather than "empathize" I would say, "understand".  Your version suggests some agreement.  If you agree with everyone your in a world of confusion.

[ClintMemo]

What on Earth is there to study on that particular subject?  I wouldn't want children having any sexual education from any Institution.  My experience is that schools teach sex, without any thoughts of love, responsibility or consequence.  Way too cold. 

It's much better for kids to learn the practical issues of sex (like STD and birth control) BEFORE their hormones convince them to find out for themselves.

I always find it amusing when people are both anti-abortion and anti-sex education, but, in retrospect, I guess it's no different than wanting both fewer taxes and more government spending.