Author Topic: How to end a story?  (Read 12146 times)

slic

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on: April 21, 2007, 01:51:32 PM
The lastest escapepod story "The Angle of My Dreams" ( http://escapepod.org/2007/04/19/ep102-the-angle-of-my-dreams ) clearly leaves the ending up to the reader - I won't spoil it here.  However, it got me to wondering about endings and I'd like to try a wholly unscientific poll (does this make it a science fiction poll ;)) -

Do people prefer that type of open-ended ending to a story (especially a short story) or something with a little more closure?  And teh hard part - why?



Simon Painter

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Reply #1 on: April 21, 2007, 03:36:52 PM
A very interesting question.  I don't actually have a preference as such, I just think that it depends on the individual story.  Most stories work best with an ending that resolves anything, but there are a few where it's best left ambiguous, mostly to maintain an air of mystery or to leave the reader/listener with something to think about.

There aren't many cases where an uncertain ending does work, but certainly in the case of The Angle of my Dreams, I think it worked far better this way.

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mummifiedstalin

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Reply #2 on: April 26, 2007, 04:54:45 PM
No general preference. But an unclear ending has to be thematically appropriate. In this case, it was, since what mattered most was that the boy and his grandfather were back together. Some kind of familial bond had been reestablished by the simple attempt.

What I don't like are what I call "New Yorker Stories" where you feel you're dropped into the middle of something and pulled out before it's even clear what the conflict might have been. Or stories that simply seem to end. These are the kind of stories that usually get defended as "character pieces," and that is certainly fine. But it can often seem to be simply unfinished ideas rather than an unfinished story.

On the other hand, there are plenty of other stories where, once the idea has been established, it's clear how the story's going to end. I'd much rather a story simply cut off before a final "climactic" conflict which can of course only go one way than have to go through the motions. If a story ends with things that simply feel like "wrap up," I get frustrated. I expect that in novels where the investment in character often needs resolution (or a "cool down" period), but not in short stories where the expectations are different.



Chodon

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Reply #3 on: April 27, 2007, 05:33:01 PM
I really prefer my stories with a solid ending leaving nothing to the imagination.  Maybe it's because I'm not creative to come up with a real ending in my mind.  Maybe it's because there are so many possibilities. 

With that having been said, I would rather have a story with no ending than a story with a bad ending. 

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BlairHippo

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Reply #4 on: April 27, 2007, 06:27:34 PM
Depends on the story, but if there are central plot points that are left unresolved, I typically feel cheated.  (Though I'm prepared to give an author some leeway -- for instance, we don't know the exact fates of all the characters or that society at the end of "Nightfall," but we have enough to know that whatever happens next is Not Good.)



FNH

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Reply #5 on: April 28, 2007, 06:10:11 PM
With that having been said, I would rather have a story with no ending than a story with a bad ending. 

NO way.  I've seen movies like that and they just drive me mad!  If there is no real ending then I just feel like I've wasted my time reading/watching.


slic

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Reply #6 on: April 28, 2007, 10:18:23 PM
Since I asked I should give my answer.

I prefer enough of an ending to make sure I understand where the characters will likely end up, or at least have a resolution/decision made.  I agree with the ending to Angle of my Dreams - it was pretty clear that the boy and GrandDad would get along fine and have a "good" time of it.  The GrandDad has accepted his Grandson without any reservations.

I really dislike when a story stops in what feels mid-resolution - The Watching People is about the only story I can think of from EscapePod where I really felt cheated.  The characters are left hanging in that case - you can feel the transformation coming and then it just stops



Mfitz

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Reply #7 on: May 16, 2007, 08:42:11 PM
I'm coming late to this but the topic just caught my eye.  Like most people so far I think the answer depends on the story.  I think it might also depend on the format, say sort story -vs- novel.  I think I would find a ambiguous ending more emotionally acceptable in a short story with and  than a novel, but it would really depend on what the ambiguity is.

I completely agree with the comment about the "New Yorker Stories"  I just don't get the whole slice of life as fiction.  When I read something that just starts runs on a while then stops, unless there is something really extraordinary about the writing I feel cheated. like time has been stolen out of my life.

Personally, I like happy endings/  I don't mean everything tied up with a big pink bow, but endings were everyone gets what they deserve.  The emotional tone of a story  is often a point of contention in my critique group. There is a rather strong bias away from definite endings as somehow being Craft instead of Art.  That seems like nonsense to me.



Listener

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Reply #8 on: May 16, 2007, 08:43:58 PM
My story "The Last Worthless Evening" originally had a lady-or-the-tiger ending -- does she go in or doesn't she?  (If she chose not to, she wouldn't find out the truth.)  I went back and added a more definitive ending and feel much better about it.

As long as there IS an ending, I'm not unhappy.  I rarely like to be left with dangling plot threads.

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #9 on: May 17, 2007, 07:21:55 PM
"When I read something that just starts runs on a while then stops"

FTR, New Yorker stories don't do this. There are a set of conventions about how to end literary stories. They're sort of like ... uploading as a genre trope. Say "upload" to an SF reader and they know what you mean. Say it in a lit story and get blank stares. There's logic behind New Yorker endings; it's just a different set of reader conventions.



Mfitz

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Reply #10 on: May 17, 2007, 08:30:10 PM
So, maybe I shouldn't have picked on the New Yorker, but I know I've read plenty of literary stories and genre stories with literary pretensions that had no begining-middle-end structure.  Heck there are ever plenty of SF stories that are really travelogues with no real plot progression or character development.  They can be interesting to read, they can be beautifully written, but nothing happens there is no conflict and resolution. I always feel cheated at the end of that sort of story.  When I want a slice of life I'll eavesdrop on the people next to me at a restaurant or ahead of me in line at Krogers.  You hear the most fascinating things that way, but it's not the same thing as fiction which is perfected and streamlined reality with a conflict and resolution.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 02:24:30 PM by Mfitz »



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #11 on: May 17, 2007, 09:01:20 PM
I might have been unclear. ;-) I was making the argument that nothing -- except bad, and usually unpublishable, writing -- actually has no beginning, middle and end. However, the ways in which beginning, middle and end are constructed in literary circles (culminating in the "New Yorker Stories"-type, which is a totally legitimate thing to refer to) is different enough that it takes some training to see, in the same way that it takes training to read the conceits of genre fiction.



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #12 on: May 18, 2007, 03:45:24 PM
Your ending is when the point of your story--note, not the plot, the point--is resolved.  Sometimes this means the plot is unresolved, as in a "Lady or the Tiger" ending or many "literary" type stories that appear to end ambigously.  Sometimes it means you continue long after the plot is finished, continuing to follow Frodo even after the One Ring is melted down.

Basically, you're finished when whatever you wanted to say about the human condition is said. After that, you're just fooling around.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 03:48:46 PM by JaredAxelrod »



Listener

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Reply #13 on: May 24, 2007, 06:01:09 PM
(coming back to this thread because I'm bored at work)

I think there are some examples when long, protracted endings work.  Return of the King was not one of them.  But in "Its Hour Come Round At Last", there was the climax, then a long conclusion/talky scene, and then the very end, when the two main characters are talking, that just felt right.  It was worth going through the long conclusion and the talkyness.

And yes, I'm referring to fan fiction.  Don't laugh.

I always fear that when I end something I haven't sufficiently wrapped up all the plot threads.  When I revise, endings are always where I make the most changes -- not changing HOW I end the story, because I'm usually pretty happy with the ending, but adding onto the denouement.

Maybe that's why so many current fantasy novels are doorstops... the authors never quite know where to end or how much to leave open for the inevitable sequel.

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Golgo13

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Reply #14 on: July 08, 2007, 05:15:21 AM
I remember when I got started reading the "Wheel of Time" books in high school, and how by around book four, I got the feeling that Jordan was never going to finish the story to my satisfaction. Why? Because he had created SO many characters, and done SO many things that made little overall impact on the original premise that he had, that even if the final book (or so he says) is 4K in length, all the loose ends won't be tied up.

Endings are sometimes the hardest part of a story that I write, because it's a matter of timing. Do you a.) draw out every little detail and then call it good, or b.) leave some things unresolved to make the reader ponder what might happen to characters that they've grown attached to.

More often than not, I consider revamping the ending from scratch with every first draft I edit. I don't know if that makes me a bad writer or shows a lack of confidence in my work, but I generally feel more often than not, that I can tweak it enough to make it sharper and more enjoyable.



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Reply #15 on: July 08, 2007, 04:54:25 PM
For me it depends mostly on the story length. If it's a novel or series of novels, I've invested a lot of time and I want a satisfying payoff. For that reason, I liked Return of the King (book and movie). If I've enjoyed it and there is no more to read, I want at least to be able to extrapolate what the sequel might be. "They lived happily ever after" suggests the monsters stopped coming around and they enjoyed the remainder of their lives in the little cottage. Maybe LoTR is not such a good example, because I gather Tolkien wanted to present it as part of a much bigger alternate history sort of thing, and real-world historical events rarely have a cut-and-dried resolution.

For short stories, it's not so important to me to know exactly what went on before and after. It's more of a mood thing. There may be no time for such luxuries. In many of Bradbury's short stories, it's the setting and mood that I remember years later, long after I've forgotten the characters, plot, and ending.
This is not to say that there are not short stories that need to tie up all loose ends, such as Sherlock Holmes stories ending with the revelation of the solution; or most of O'Henry's, where typically the last paragraph has the punch line. In such cases though, I suspect that the ending was often the first thing that the authors came up with, and they built the rest of the story around it, so "how to end it" was not an issue.

I'm still not sure how I feel about Stephen King's final installment in his Dark Tower series. Roland's part in it made me think "Oh crap, King's not going to ... yup, he's gone an done it. d'Oh!", and that King bailed out of writing a "proper" ending, but really I suppose it was resolved in a way that pretty much nails down "what happens next".

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Listener

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Reply #16 on: July 11, 2007, 05:46:23 PM
A story should end when you feel you have nothing more you can say and no major plot threads are left dangling.  A long denouement often turns readers off when they think back on the book -- like in Harry Potter 5, when almost 80 pages are spent with just Dumbledore explaining things to Harry.  Blarg.

You should leave yourself open to a sequel, even if you have no current plans to write one, mostly by not killing every one of your pro- and antagonists.

The one project I really want to finish -- the steampunkish magic novel -- ends with the climactic fight scene, and then a short piece where the characters who are still alive say goodbye to each other.  I already have the idea for the sequel in mind.

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raygunray

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Reply #17 on: July 12, 2007, 12:14:15 AM
Still figuring out this question. Yet I tend to end the story when:

1. The consequences of the protagonists actions can only lead to one resoution.
2. At some point in the story the character has changed, for better or worse.
3. They found what they're looking for and will now get what they deserve.

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Planish

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Reply #18 on: September 30, 2007, 05:37:06 AM
Still figuring out this question. Yet I tend to end the story when:

1. The consequences of the protagonists actions can only lead to one resoution.
2. At some point in the story the character has changed, for better or worse.
3. They found what they're looking for and will now get what they deserve.
That reminds me of what Joseph Campbell says about "the hero's journey":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth
Quote
Campbell's insight was that important myths from around the world which have survived for thousands of years, all share a fundamental structure. This fundamental structure contains a number of stages, which includes
  • A call to adventure, which the hero has to accept or decline
  • A road of trials, regarding which the hero succeeds or fails
  • Achieving the goal or "boon," which often results in important self-knowledge
  • A return to the ordinary world, again as to which the hero can succeed or fail
  • Applying the boon, in which what the hero has gained can be used to improve the world
In a well-known quote from the introduction to The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell wrote:
"A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man."
For the last step especially, I always think about "The Scouring of the Shire" in LoTR, which was the real boon, not the destruction of the One Ring.

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bolddeceiver

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Reply #19 on: October 02, 2007, 08:39:38 AM
The last story I actually ended to my own satisfaction (I have far too many unfinished or unsatisfactorily finished stories sitting around) had an ending that was simultaneously very open-ended and painfully final.  In general I like that sort of ending, the ending you couldn't continue from, but which also leaves a lot unanswered.  I guess I'm a sadist.



DDog

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Reply #20 on: October 14, 2007, 11:20:37 PM
What I don't like are what I call "New Yorker Stories" where you feel you're dropped into the middle of something and pulled out before it's even clear what the conflict might have been. Or stories that simply seem to end. These are the kind of stories that usually get defended as "character pieces," and that is certainly fine. But it can often seem to be simply unfinished ideas rather than an unfinished story.
"New Yorker stories," I like that. Do you mean the short fiction pieces as opposed to "Shouts & Murmurs"? Several stories I read in The New Yorker years ago I later discovered turned into novels; I'm thinking of Middlesex and The Namesake specifically at the moment. So perhaps some of them are simply starting points, or the chapter of a not-yet-published novel that works the best individually.

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