Author Topic: Foreign Languages  (Read 63082 times)

Simon Painter

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on: April 21, 2007, 04:06:25 PM
Here's a topic for discussing Foreign Languages.  Do you speak any?  Do you want to?  If you do, what's a really good way to learn?  Where are there good places to practice?

Simon Painter
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Bdoomed

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Reply #1 on: April 22, 2007, 12:30:03 AM
well im "learning" spanish... but this is my last year ever dealing with spanish in school ever again... personally i cant stand the language, ive been taking it for... about 8 or 9 years now and i still cannot speak it.  i can speak broken spanish, and understand a good deal of it.

i WANT to learn either german, russian, or japanese.  those seem like cool, interesting languages to learn.

best way to learn i guess is in school... or some kinda class

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Simon Painter

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Reply #2 on: April 22, 2007, 12:24:52 PM
I'm learning German myself, it is a great fun language to learn.  Lessons are always good, I'm taking those myself at a local college, but I actually kicked off with the language by living there for a year.  With French, though, I actually started off with MP3 lessons during my walk to work.  I highly reccomend the Pimsleur language series, I actually managed to use them to skip having to do the Beginners French course and go straight into Intermediate.

Has anyone else ever used Pimsleur?

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Reply #3 on: April 22, 2007, 09:52:32 PM
Has anyone else ever used Pimsleur?

I've used Pimsleur, and was very happy with the results, thought disappointed in the application.
I had to learn Arabic for a job a few years ago and randomly grabbed Pimsleur from the shelf. I loaded the CDs on to my Ipod and listened to them on my way to work. Unfortunately I never really got a chance to interact with any Arab speakers and have promptly forgotten most all of it.

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Reply #4 on: April 23, 2007, 12:56:28 AM
I've learned Ukrainian since I was about three months old. I'm pretty good at it, and it gives a window of opportunity towards learning just about any Slavic language around.



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Reply #5 on: April 23, 2007, 05:12:50 AM
I have been living in Germany for 12 of the last 17 years.  You would think by that time I would be fluent.  Although I have a lot of German friends and understand German very well, I still have a think accent and never will be able to speak it like a German.  I feel it is because we came from a school system that doesn't believe that we need to learn languages, because everybody is learning ours. Most European schools start teaching English when the kids are seven or eight years old, and you can really tell they understand the language and can even speak it with an English or American accent.

Just as an aside, I have used Pimsluer to learn French and it is an excellent system, but you do have to use the language or you will forget it very quickly.


 



sirana

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Reply #6 on: April 23, 2007, 08:01:22 AM
I have been living in Germany for 12 of the last 17 years.  You would think by that time I would be fluent.  Although I have a lot of German friends and understand German very well, I still have a think accent and never will be able to speak it like a German.  I feel it is because we came from a school system that doesn't believe that we need to learn languages, because everybody is learning ours. Most European schools start teaching English when the kids are seven or eight years old, and you can really tell they understand the language and can even speak it with an English or American accent.

I'm not sure this is necessarily the fault of the American school system. In the German school system you start to learn English in 5th grade, so the children are 10 or 11 years old. I think English is much easier to learn as a foreign language compared to other languages. I had French in school and I found it way more difficult (especially difficult to speak) than English and the (non-German) people I know that learned German as a second language say the same thing.
Add that to the fact that nearly every scientific article you read at the university, every movie you download via bittorrent and a big majority of the websites you visit are in English and it is no wonder that Europeans speak normally better English than the other way round.



lowky

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Reply #7 on: April 23, 2007, 03:27:19 PM
I believe there have been studies done that show the younger you start to learn a language the easier it is to learn.  Most schools in my area, don't start teaching foreign languages until high school, with a few starting around 7th or 8th grade.  I took german, starting with Foreign language orientation in 7th grade (3 weeks each of spanish french and german).  I also took german in college, but I haven't used it in ten years or more, and I would have difficulty trying to speak it.  I *think* I would be able to ask someone if they spoke english, or to speak slowly because of being a foreigner if dropped in the middle of Germany. 


Oblio

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Reply #8 on: April 23, 2007, 04:35:41 PM
Quote
I believe there have been studies done that show the younger you start to learn a language the easier it is to learn.

That's the point I was trying to make.  The Europeans start at seven or eight.  The studies show that if one never learns a language before 12 then it is to late to start and expect to sound like a native speaker.  The brain needs to be wired to learn languages early on.



GinaCole

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Reply #9 on: April 24, 2007, 05:42:22 PM
My sister and I both grew up in OH. When I was 17 and she was 16 we moved to the Philippines. Although our parents never really taught us the language (Filipino), we understood enough from eavesdropping on their conversations. Ten years later, she speaks like a native whereas I come off sounding like a jerk. Same background, different results.

P.S. I'm not dumber than my sister. :P

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lowky

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Reply #10 on: April 24, 2007, 08:26:43 PM
My sister and I both grew up in OH. When I was 17 and she was 16 we moved to the Philippines. Although our parents never really taught us the language (Filipino), we understood enough from eavesdropping on their conversations. Ten years later, she speaks like a native whereas I come off sounding like a jerk. Same background, different results.

P.S. I'm not dumber than my sister. :P

isn't their language similar to spanish due to occupation/colonization?


Anarkey

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Reply #11 on: April 24, 2007, 09:20:33 PM
P.S. I'm not dumber than my sister. :P

Just because you're no dumber than she is does not mean you have the same ability to master languages.  It's a really specific ability, relating to (among other things) how good your ear is at parsing words and phrases plus how good your mouth is at making and replicating sounds plus how good your mind is at recall.  She could be far better than you at any of those or any of a number of other linguistic helping abilities.

I think most of what has been said here about sounding like a native boils down to mastering making sounds, and yes, the palate hardens with age and you become physically unable to make certain sounds when supposedly (science suggests, anyway) everyone is born with the ability to make all available sounds and clicks made in all languages. 

Believe me, I teach Spanish to three year olds, and some children are noticeably better than others at various aspects of the language learning skillset.  Some of those kids already struggle to make the hard r, while some of them pick it up effortlessly.  This ability doesn't correlate directly with (school performance) intelligence, as near as I can tell.

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Simon Painter

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Reply #12 on: May 02, 2007, 11:02:33 AM
On a similar note, I just got back from a holiday in Germany and while there I got talking with a lady from Romania.  Not only does she speak her own language but also Germany, English and Latin (and was working for a Croatian restaurant, so presumably Croation as well).

That absolutely staggared me, she was most amused to hear about how bad the teaching of language is in the UK atm.

Simon Painter
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wakela

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Reply #13 on: May 07, 2007, 05:20:59 AM
I live in Japan, and I've been beating my head against the Japanese language for several years.  I could go on for pages about studying Japanese, but I'll just hit you guys with some interesting tidbits. 

We have a Peruvian friend who's been here about as long as I have.  She picked up the language through friends while I took lessons.  My wife, who is Japanese, says that our Peruvian friend's Japanese is more fluent, but she makes more mistakes.  My Japanese is more stilted, but I speak more correctly.   Which is better?

Also, I can at least read a little.  I've only met one person who learned to read and write on his own.  There isn't a neat one to one to one relationship between character and meaning and pronunciation.  The character for inexpensive also means safe.  The character for elephant also means pattern, imitate, and image.  Each character has at least two pronunciations, and all bets are off if it appears in a word.  The words are tricky to spot, since they don'tuseanyspaces.

But the kanji allow for great specificity.  They have one word for "the first leaves of spring", one word for "visiting the graves of your ancestors." 

There is also the social and cultural aspect.  As a gaijin (note: not a derogatory term), they give me a pass on these.  You use different words when talking superiors than to equals.  You don't just throw a "sir" at the end of your sentence or use the "usted" form of the verb, you use entirely different words.   But when talking about superiors to members of another group, like referring to your company president to someone at a different company, you use diminutive words, because everything about you is lower than anything about the other person.  Even if someone is one or two years older you should use respectful language.   




wakela

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Reply #14 on: May 07, 2007, 05:26:29 AM
I read an article in The Economist a while back that suggested that (assuming you live in a different country) hanging around in bars is more effective than taking language lessons.  When you think about it, if you took the time and money you would spend on lessons and apply that to making friends with the locals and buying rounds, it's not a crazy idea.

Whether you go the alcoholic or academic route, there is no substitute for living there.  I studied Japanese in the US for three years, and when I came here I was put in a class with people who had been studying for six months. 



wherethewild

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Reply #15 on: May 07, 2007, 06:19:25 PM
I´ve been in Germany for almost 8 years and I´m fluent - meaning I can happily discuss almost anything with almost anyone without having to search for vocabulary. However my grammar is still far from perfect. Perhaps I should take some lessons.

I second the idea that hanging around in bars is a good idea...although Germans are a notoriously difficult people to get to know in bars, small talk being not exactly their strong suit. I must admit that TV was more my tutor. Watching dubbed reruns of Home Improvement and the Fresh Prince of Bel-air brought me to the level I am today. And may explain why I say Hey, man a lot.

Australia also has a really poor language education system. Here it is taken very seriously and started very young (as already mentioned). In fact, there are at least 3 bilingual kindergartens in my neighbourhood and many well-educated parents consider multiple languages a priority. I know several who have deliberately sought out non-German babysitters for that reason.

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Holden

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Reply #16 on: May 07, 2007, 11:54:15 PM
Anyone here speak Esperanto?



wakela

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Reply #17 on: May 08, 2007, 02:22:04 AM
I would like to defend the US, UK, and Australia's "poor" second language educations.  True, that they are well below most Europe, but it is simply not as necessary for a native English speaker to study Spanish or French as it is for a German to study English.  I'm not discounting the benefits of learning another language, but I would rather my kid spend her precious school time studing more science, math, and English than Spanish or French.



wherethewild

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Reply #18 on: May 08, 2007, 10:42:29 AM
wakela: I´ll certainly agree with you that as a native English speaker you don´t need a second language to survive in the world. I´d also agree that more maths and science is a good thing (seeing as I am a scientist).

However I would say that the English classes (unless it´s changed A LOT since I studied in Oz) teach you very little about the language, and every two-language speaker I know will assure you that you only really start to understand your own language when you learn another. Because then you have to learn the rules instead "I dunno, it just sounds right".

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Simon Painter

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Reply #19 on: May 08, 2007, 12:35:14 PM
I'd just link to second what wherethewild said.  English lessons in England don't teach grammar at all these days.  It actually wasn't until I started learning German that I knew what Verbs and Nouns were!

I'm also gaining an appreciation for just how messed up the rules of English pronunciation are  :P

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oddpod

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Reply #20 on: May 08, 2007, 12:37:19 PM
i am fluent in gibberish and a Friend of mine keeps trying to teach me Polari

card carying dislexic and  gramatical revolushonery


wakela

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Reply #21 on: May 09, 2007, 01:20:09 AM
Good points.  I think you guys just made good cases for studying less foreign language and more English grammar.  I came out of school with a pretty good grasp of grammar, but I went to a private school, so it's not representative of US education.  Though I sure got stumped a few times teaching English to Japanese people.

Are the pronunciation rules for English harder than those of French?  I haven't studied German, but it looks pretty straightforward once you learn those extra funny little characters. 



Simon Painter

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Reply #22 on: May 09, 2007, 11:21:27 AM
There are next to no solid rules for English pronunciation, at least none without dozens of exceptions. 

F'rinstance, the word 'Ghoti'  could be pronounced 'gow-tee' 'fish' or ' '  depending on how you look at it.

French and German are completely phonetic, as indeed is pretty much any language that isn't English!

Simon Painter
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Thaurismunths

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Reply #23 on: May 09, 2007, 11:41:45 AM
French and German are completely phonetic, as indeed is pretty much any language that isn't English!
Or Welsh! (Somebody, buy those people a vowel!)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 11:45:05 AM by Thaurismunths »

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wherethewild

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Reply #24 on: May 09, 2007, 12:47:38 PM
Try explaining the pronunciation difference between trough, though, through, thought! Ha! Gets ´em every time. The other toughie to a German is why vary is pronounced var-ee and not var-eye when the word is variety. Always get that one wrong. Hmmm, maybe I should write a book on common German mispronunciations (video/wideo has to be one of my favourites). Gotta be a winner.

Again I´ll make the point that even being taught your own grammar doesn´t necessarily work that well. It´s so self explanatory to you as a native speaker ("well, duh, that´s ´cause it sounds right" was my normal response in school) that you never really learn it. I´d challenge any native speaker with a basic school English education to explain what an progressive present participle is or pluperfect tense without looking it up.

Do we need our kids to know English that well? Well, probably not. Do we need our kids to understand surds or cosine function in order to get by in the world? Also, probably not. Do we need our kids to understand other languages? I will always argue yes, because with the understanding of another language comes an insight and connection to another culture and that can only help integration and intercultural relationships. Which would hopefully lead to a happier world.

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