Foreign Languages

[qwints]

I have to say I find you Europeans takes on Americans refreshing. One thing I'm always paranoid about when traveling is being "the ugly American." Someone who is convinced they can make themselves understood if they only speak their English slower and louder. Someone who refuses to adapt to other countries customs. To be honest, I'm also  a little paranoid about looking like a tourist even when traveling in the US given us Texans' reputation.

As for for my personal experience, I don't know anyone in Texas who can't speak at least a little Spanish. Last I saw we're like 45% Hispanic, many of whom speak Spanish as a first language. Even so, there are people who act offended when they have to use Spanish.

I don't think European accents have the same negative reaction in the US as Asian or Hispanic (yes, I realize they speak Spanish in Spain and it's in Europe, but most Americans don't know that and don't care...the call Spanish "Mexican").  I think it comes from the whole illegal immigration BS going on right now in the US.  It's not an absolute by any means, but I think Europeans would have an easier go of things while visiting the US than non-Europeans. 

This is certainly true for Spanish speakers in Texas, though I'd say it takes pretty broken English to provoke a negative reaction. Work any service-sector job in Austin and you'll run into several non-English speakers a day. In my personal experience, people are more likely to look down on people speaking AAE (ake ebonics) than people without any English.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

Speaking of France...

When we visited, we had no problems with language barriers; my wife tried to be our spokesperson, and she usually got the "Aw, aren't you cute..." reaction (maybe they thought we were Canadian).

The only foreigner to be rude to Americans on that trip was... well, a Brit.

I went to the dining car to get something for the baby, and there were 3 or 4 U.S. cheerleaders from a tour group.  They were typically loud, excited, and unintentionally rude in the way that teen girls away from home tend to be, and the line wasn't moving while they tried to figure out what to order.  Lot's of "Oh-muh-GAWD" and "Like, what's THAT word supposed to be?"  And giggling.

The guy in front of me turned around and said something in French that I actually kinda understood... basically, "Why do we suffer because their country didn't want them?"  I was so pleased I understood him, I laughed and made a remark (in English) about the irony of traveling all this way to get away from this sort  of thing.  He blanched, realizing immediately where I hailed from, and left the car... which was cool because I was next in line, then.

[zZzacha]

Sorry to hear your experience with us Germans is such a negative one, but I have to say I am surprised that Germans would expect you to speak German to them and I don't think it has anything to do with the size of the country. Germans would probably always speak English if they don't actually speak the language of the country in question. Maybe they are just making the (false) assumption you would understand German better than English, given that Dutch SOUNDS very similar to German (no offense, and don't get me wrong I am not trying to defend their behavior, even if it sounds like I am).

Nice! I was hoping some Europeans would react
Really, I have nothing against Germans, I think it's just a complex we have. Holland knows it's a small country (maybe we're aware of it too much) and thus we falsely asume that people from that BIG country Germany want to force the language on us. I'll call it a inferiority complex.

German does sound a bit like Dutch, I think we could understand each other somewhat if we spoke in our native language. But it would be like the marble thing: some dialects are just too darn difficult to understand. Yeah, even here in Holland we have some incomprehensible ones, we use subtitles on tv when they speak (I always think that's an insult to them... When your being subtitled in your own language)
And me too, I'm not defending Dutch behavior, I'm merely trying to find an explanation without talking about soccer and such. I hate sports. (and don't get me started about that. The whole country is starting to be orange, cars with flags, hats... Well, you Europeans get my drift)

[zZzacha]

I have to say I find you Europeans takes on Americans refreshing. One thing I'm always paranoid about when traveling is being "the ugly American."

I must admit... There are Americans who present themselves that way and then I think "You see, typical American". And even though those are not the majority of Americans I've met, I still have that idea of 'typical American', that's true. Kinda funny when I think of it. But that may also be another inferiority complex. Or my mind may be way too stuck on that term today... LOL, I think it's just me that has the inferiority complex and I'll put it on ANYTHING today.

To be honest, I'm also  a little paranoid about looking like a tourist even when traveling in the US given us Texans' reputation.

We may have the same complex... Wanna talk about it? 

[wherethewild]

I know I should be quoting bits but there are too many to reference now.

Re: France
Hated Paris the first time I was there because it was stinky and dirty and I got followed down the street by a guy wanking. Really. Had it right out there for all to admire. Every time since that I've visited France I've really enjoyed it and I find the people no ruder than northern Germany. Plus the food IS to die for.

Re: being a tourist
Same here. There are places where you do not want to be known as Australian (London for one, anywhere along a Contiki tour route for another). Then I usually speak more German than English.

Re: Dutch/German
I actually never know which language I should speak to a Dutch colleague in, because he's fluent in all three. It usually ends up being Dinglish and he puts up with it.
I find I can get the gist of newspapers in Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Afrikaans and Pennsylvania Dutch. Don't ask me to comprehend it spoken though.

Re: Difficult accents
In German, swiss and Plat and anything from around Dresden - forget it. Heavy Bayerisch and Swäbisch is also tough.
In English, I find the new zealand accent also takes me a moment to switch on. It's okay once I've got it.

Funny Aside re: difficult accents
My father was at a conference in the US a few years ago and the host could not for the life of him understand my father's question (dad's Aussie but with a mild accent, deep voice and slow and excellent enunciation). The host gave up on understanding and turned to the next question which was asked in a heavy Indian accent. And was immediately answered. Goes to show it's just what you're used to hearing, whether it's a foreign/non-native accent or not.

[Chodon]

Funny Aside re: difficult accents
My father was at a conference in the US a few years ago and the host could not for the life of him understand my father's question (dad's Aussie but with a mild accent, deep voice and slow and excellent enunciation). The host gave up on understanding and turned to the next question which was asked in a heavy Indian accent. And was immediately answered. Goes to show it's just what you're used to hearing, whether it's a foreign/non-native accent or not.

I went to Scotland back in the day and felt like I stepped into the movie Trainspotting.  It didn't even seem like English at first.  The Scots had a hard time understanding our midwest accents.  After about 3 days I found myself totally understanding what people were saying though, even though they still had no idea what my family was trying to say.

It doesn't help that some places in Michigan have their own strange dialiect including "malk" instead of "milk" and "bagel" (spoken like bag-el instead of bay-gul).  Don't get me started on the whole "soda vs. pop" debate!  There are more, but since I hear them everyday I don't pay attention to them.

[Russell Nash]

I'll branch off of Wherethewild was.

France v. Paris:
I find Parisians to be far ruder than other french folk.  Caveat: I was only in Paris and met the non-Parisians outside of France.  The Parisians I met outside of France were worse than the ones I met in Paris.

Accents and acceptibility:
A big part of the acceptibility of accents comes from how they're being used.  A cute, sweet, young woman trying very hard to be polite and who knows it's difficult for the other is treated far better than a big, ugly guy who just expects the other one to deal with it.  Smiles help a lot and so does a sense of humor.  Sometimes the person being talked to is just an asshole and then it doesn't matter what you do.

[Troo]

I have a fondness for linguistic studies. Language fascinates me (albeit not enough for me to quit the day job and pile a few thousand pounds and gain a huge student debt to head off to university and study it in depth).

Alas I did a fair amount of travelling around Europe as a wee nipper, so I have a smattering of French, German and Italian at my beck and call. Worse, so do most Europeans, so many conversations took place in a combination of four languages rather than in a single one, which prevented improvement.

Italy was particularly fun for this, when Dad and I got chatting to the lady who ran an ice-cream shop, and we were having to switch languages mid-sentence when we hit a word we didn't know but had available to us in another language.

French is by far my best, although I'm hardly fluent in it.

I'm certainly making a concerted effort to learn Japanese, though. Study keeps the ole grey matter going, and because Japanese shares absolutely no linguistic roots with Latinate or Germanic languages, it should provide an actual challenge.

It's certainly not helped, though, when you go to Japan and everyone switches to English to be helpful, and you're trying to practice your Japanese 

"Sumimasen. Ichiban chikai toire wa doku desu ka?"
"Just down there, on the left."
"... Thanks."

I concur with most prior statements about the French. They're fiercely posessive of their language, and although many French people have a good grasp of English, they'll simply refuse to speak it. I don't mind, since my French comprehension is good enough to get by in most situations, but I did get irritated once when I was attempting to buy a train ticket and I had a bad cold, so the butthole at the desk was pretending he couldn't understand me.

Strangely, that was in Brussells. But I figured him for French

[Russell Nash]

I forgot one observation.  (as if you couldn't tell by many of my posts that I just love to sit and watch people.)  Many non-English-mother-tongue tourists speak English.  Many of them believe that since they have learned English everyone everywhere should speak English.  This leads to them leaving wakes of people behind them saying, "f***ing Americans", when these tourists were Bulgarian or something. 

I was eating at a Chinese place (German with a Chinese accent is rough).  While I was still waiting for my food, some North American (US, Canada, not sure) tried to place an order.  There was some pointing and smiling, but the order was placed.

About ten customers later two (possibly Russian) women walked by me.  When it was there turn, they ordered in quick, but heavily accented, English.  The man didn't understand them, so they said it louder.  After a minute or so they were almost shouting, and then finally started pointing. 

When the women went to get there seat, the man said a German phrase that always pops up whenever the US military messes up here (one of the soldiers raping a girl or something like that).  It translates as: Americans go home. 

I think the majority of the Americans who travel to Europe try not to be the "Ugly American".  The problem is, that now that a lot of other people can travel and English has become the international language, a lot of other nationalities can fill the vacuum and we get blamed.

[zZzacha]

I think the majority of the Americans who travel to Europe try not to be the "Ugly American".  The problem is, that now that a lot of other people can travel and English has become the international language, a lot of other nationalities can fill the vacuum and we get blamed.

I think it's very funny everybody here has about the same story: we try our very best to be a nice guy/girl in foreign countries and we keep being perceived as being rude, no matter how hard we try. Maybe it's just all in our heads. Different countries, slightly different approach to communication, and of course the different typifications we have of a typical American, German, Frenchman, you name it. It's hard to change someone's mental picture, especially if you talk to people for just a short time.

But then again, if we all start updating the mental pictures we have, this thread wouldn't be so interesting. So please keep those observations coming, because I'm having as much fun with them as Russell does

@Troo: I used to be so embarrassed by my parents when we were on holiday in Europe. They kept messing with the language: French, German, English, Dutch, Hands&Feet, anything to get the message across. But hey, when you want to say something, you take whatever word you can find to say it. And most of the time it works Also, most of the time it's easier to let the natives know you're NOT trying to be fluent in their language, because if they get a hint of that, they really start talking and there's no stopping them (as said before, French have that art really covered).

[stePH]

@Troo: I used to be so embarrassed by my parents when we were on holiday in Europe. They kept messing with the language: French, German, English, Dutch, Hands&Feet, anything to get the message across. But hey, when you want to say something, you take whatever word you can find to say it. And most of the time it works Also, most of the time it's easier to let the natives know you're NOT trying to be fluent in their language, because if they get a hint of that, they really start talking and there's no stopping them (as said before, French have that art really covered).

My mother-in-law is Mexican.  She speaks heavily-accented English but frequently slips into Spanish without warning.

Her oldest son speaks to her entirely in Spanish for clarity of communication.  My wife, on the other hand, speaks to her in English with the occasional Spanish word dropped in.  For example: "Steph just finished building your closet organizer, so you can put all your ropa in now."  Or "Where did you put the white cosas that were by the door?"

[tpi]

As an aside: If you want to learn a "western" language with western writing style (opposed to e.q. japanese and chinese) which has totally different structure than indo-european languages, you should try learning finnish. Short simpified introduction can be found here: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish-intro.html.

[Darwinist]

@Troo: I used to be so embarrassed by my parents when we were on holiday in Europe. They kept messing with the language: French, German, English, Dutch, Hands&Feet, anything to get the message across. But hey, when you want to say something, you take whatever word you can find to say it. And most of the time it works Also, most of the time it's easier to let the natives know you're NOT trying to be fluent in their language, because if they get a hint of that, they really start talking and there's no stopping them (as said before, French have that art really covered).

My mother-in-law is Mexican.  She speaks heavily-accented English but frequently slips into Spanish without warning.

Her oldest son speaks to her entirely in Spanish for clarity of communication.  My wife, on the other hand, speaks to her in English with the occasional Spanish word dropped in.  For example: "Steph just finished building your closet organizer, so you can put all your ropa in now."  Or "Where did you put the white cosas that were by the door?"

Funny.  When my family visits Mexico we stay with my sister-in-law's family there.  Her mother will occaisonally take us out on the town and translate for me (I need to learn the language, my wife and son know Spanish).   She speaks very good English and a lot of the merchants think she's American and compliment her on her Spanish. 

Hasta la bye bye!

[qwints]

To be honest, I'm also  a little paranoid about looking like a tourist even when traveling in the US given us Texans' reputation.

We may have the same complex... Wanna talk about it? 

Texas has something like the opposite situation of Holland. Texas:US::US:World (or at least a lot of Texans would say so.) For a number of historical reasons, Texas has one of the most distinctive identities in the United States. That said, Texas is widely perceived as a little backwards (e.g. "You're from Texas? Do you have a horse?")

[Troo]

As an aside: If you want to learn a "western" language with western writing style (opposed to e.q. japanese and chinese) which has totally different structure than indo-european languages, you should try learning finnish. Short simpified introduction can be found here: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish-intro.html.

Hmm. *Adds Finnish to the list*. Cheers

Speaking of embarrassing family in foreign countries, I had a devil of a time trying to get mumsy dearest to stop blowing her nose at the dinner table in Japan. Still, at least she didn't resort to leaving her chopsticks sticking up out of her rice at any point.

[wakela]

To be honest, I'm also  a little paranoid about looking like a tourist even when traveling in the US given us Texans' reputation.

We may have the same complex... Wanna talk about it? 

Texas has something like the opposite situation of Holland. Texas:US::US:World (or at least a lot of Texans would say so.) For a number of historical reasons, Texas has one of the most distinctive identities in the United States. That said, Texas is widely perceived as a little backwards (e.g. "You're from Texas? Do you have a horse?")

which is odd because every time humans have gone to another planet and they have a problem who do they call?  Houston. 

Admittedly small sample size. 

[wakela]

The discussion on Americans getting blamed for the sins of others is interesting.  I also wonder if something like this is happening:  Americans who quietly go about their business can pass for Europeans.  But the ones who are all rude and loud and pointy are "typical" Americans, even though many of the actual typical Americans are not even noticed.  If TAD hadn't said anything, the guy on the train would have assumed he was French, and people came up to me speaking German when I was in Germany.   

Not all white people in Japan are Americans, but most of them probably are (English teachers and military) So the Japanese see both the cool Americans and the goof balls.  They base their judgment accordingly, and they don't end up with the "ugly American" stereotype.  The Europeans on the other hand, get a disproportionally strong impression of the goof balls.

Though I am aware that the US Japan relationship is very deep and complex, and there are other forces at work here. 

[Tango Alpha Delta]

The discussion on Americans getting blamed for the sins of others is interesting.  I also wonder if something like this is happening:  Americans who quietly go about their business can pass for Europeans.  But the ones who are all rude and loud and pointy are "typical" Americans, even though many of the actual typical Americans are not even noticed.  If TAD hadn't said anything, the guy on the train would have assumed he was French, and people came up to me speaking German when I was in Germany.   

Not all white people in Japan are Americans, but most of them probably are (English teachers and military) So the Japanese see both the cool Americans and the goof balls.  They base their judgment accordingly, and they don't end up with the "ugly American" stereotype.  The Europeans on the other hand, get a disproportionally strong impression of the goof balls.

Though I am aware that the US Japan relationship is very deep and complex, and there are other forces at work here. 

Yes, now that you mention it... that is a frustrating aspect of it.  I read a lot of Russian press, and they constantly misrepresent us as a Giant Boogie Man nation, trying to take them over.  Depending on the situation, they will use the terms "American", "the West", "NATO", and "the UN" interchangeably to refer to us, when those terms are clearly referring to completely unrelated entities. 

(This kind of leads to another issue I find annoying, where everyone in the U.S. despises and mistrusts the UN as a sinister threat to our sovereignty while the rest of the world thinks of it as a sinister puppet of the U.S. bent on threatening their sovereignty!)

I once saw an interview done with a Russian recording artist who had a hit in the early post-Yeltsin years with a track called "Kill the Yankee"; in the interview, he reviled capitalism and talked about the need to "kill the Yankee within each of us, because it is that selfishness and greed that we need to kill."  He was, of course, wearing a NY Yankee ballcap, Chicago Bulls jacket, Levi jeans, Nikes, and smoking Marlboros.

[Russell Nash]

I once saw an interview done with a Russian recording artist who had a hit in the early post-Yeltsin years with a track called "Kill the Yankee"; in the interview, he reviled capitalism and talked about the need to "kill the Yankee within each of us, because it is that selfishness and greed that we need to kill."  He was, of course, wearing a NY Yankee ballcap, Chicago Bulls jacket, Levi jeans, Nikes, and smoking Marlboros.

We'll get our revenge when the Marlboros kill him.

[birdless]

(This kind of leads to another issue I find annoying, where everyone in the U.S. despises and mistrusts the UN as a sinister threat to our sovereignty while the rest of the world thinks of it as a sinister puppet of the U.S. bent on threatening their sovereignty!)

Wow! Really?? That's tragically funny! So, I'm fairly UN ignorant... have they actually done anything constructive, then, since no one trusts them?

[wintermute]

Bear in mind, these opinions are only held by people who don't know what an ambassador actually does. At the level at which it actually operates, the UN is generally seen as a good clearinghouse for ideas, and a forum for negotiation. Their peacekeeping forces haven't actually stopped any wars (because they can't do anything that might be seen as "taking sides"), but the UN has been fairly effective in diffusing tensions, and thus preventing wars. They make it easy for ideas to travel across national borders, and have been very significant in pushing democracy and general human rights.

UNESCO, UNICEF and UNHRC do some excellent work. The WTO is somewhat more controversial. As is the WHO (but not The Who - Everyone loves Won't Get Fooled Again), believed by some... ummm... less mainstream commentators to be putting mind control drugs in the water so that everyone swears fealty to Ban-Ki Moon. And they probably turn you gay, too.

[stePH]

(This kind of leads to another issue I find annoying, where everyone in the U.S. despises and mistrusts the UN as a sinister threat to our sovereignty while the rest of the world thinks of it as a sinister puppet of the U.S. bent on threatening their sovereignty!)

Furthermore, many evangelical Xtians in the USA believe that the UN will be the "one-world government" referred to in The Revelation of Saint John.  Oh, and the Mark of the Beast will be a bar-code tattoo.

[birdless]

(This kind of leads to another issue I find annoying, where everyone in the U.S. despises and mistrusts the UN as a sinister threat to our sovereignty while the rest of the world thinks of it as a sinister puppet of the U.S. bent on threatening their sovereignty!)

Furthermore, many evangelical Xtians in the USA believe that the UN will be the "one-world government" referred to in The Revelation of Saint John.  Oh, and the Mark of the Beast will be a bar-code tattoo.

Yes, I can attest to this, as, regrettably, it's about the only thing I've "learned" about the UN. Though, to split hairs, it's not necessarily believed that the mark will be a "tatoo"... there's probably more on the side that it will be a chip, like the ones used in pets... just saying.

[Russell Nash]

The best thing about the UN is, that no matter what two countries are saying officially about not talking to each other, their ambassadors can just "bump" into each other and get messages across.  When the UN had all the leaders of the represented countries there (was it 1999 or 2000), Clinton had an "accidental" meet-up with Castro.

[Anarkey]

Yes, I can attest to this, as, regrettably, it's about the only thing I've "learned" about the UN. Though, to split hairs, it's not necessarily believed that the mark will be a "tatoo"... there's probably more on the side that it will be a chip, like the ones used in pets... just saying.

Those chips are currently called RFIDs.  They're in a lot more than pets.