Author Topic: Have Stories?  (Read 27921 times)

goatkeeper

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on: May 02, 2007, 02:19:12 AM
Ok, so I thought I would throw this out there and see if any storywriters would be interested  in having their stories featured on Drabblecast, another weekly short fiction podcast of a sci fi/fantasy nature, largely inspired by Escapepod/Psuedopod.

Maybe your tale didn't make Escapepod or Psuedopod or you didn't win a contest- here's a chance to still get it broadcast to a growing amount of listeners.

Check the podcast out at http://web.mac.com/normsherman
or itunes under Drabblecast.

Stories are usually 1-2K words or less, and are best described as "Atypical, fun, wierd, disturbing, sci-fi/fantasy pieces."

No $ yet (one day!)- just a chance to get your stories our to more ears and some publicity for any websites or books you have.

If interested, send your original work to goatkeeper@hotmail.com

Thanks! Norm



goatkeeper

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Reply #1 on: May 25, 2007, 04:03:09 PM
I'm surprised not many folks from Escapepod seem interested in this opportunity.  Can I ask why? (honestly)

With so many writers out there with good ideas, don't writers want to have their pieces exposed to a steady growing audience?




Listener

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Reply #2 on: May 25, 2007, 04:29:54 PM
I'm surprised not many folks from Escapepod seem interested in this opportunity.  Can I ask why? (honestly)

With so many writers out there with good ideas, don't writers want to have their pieces exposed to a steady growing audience?



Maybe the length.  I only have one SF story that would fit but it's not done yet.  My other short stories are all 8,000 - 25,000 words.

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goatkeeper

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Reply #3 on: May 25, 2007, 05:27:32 PM
AH yes, hadn't considered that, thanks!  If you ever get in the mood to crank out a flash fiction piece, send away my friend.



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #4 on: May 26, 2007, 05:40:20 AM
I expect to be paid for my work.



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Reply #5 on: May 27, 2007, 02:07:01 AM
I expect to be paid for my work.

I used to be.  Now I'd just be happy getting published.

That first publishing credit is worth its weight in gold.  It's all well and good to send cover letters talking up a story, but saying "my last short-story, 'Captain Underpants and the Booger Warriors', was published in the January 2007 issue of 'Disgusting Stuff Quarterly'" adds a lot more weight to what you're sending in.

Of course, those who are putting out the stories know which journals are "critically accepted" and which ones aren't.  Getting into the "good" publications is difficult even if you have a publishing credit.

It's not enough to be a great writer with a great story, unfortunately.  There's still a hell of a lot of luck involved.

At least, I think there is.

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #6 on: May 27, 2007, 03:01:50 PM
That's not necessarily true. Editors who are aware of short markets may give less consideration to a writer who lists a publication in a market that has a poor reputation.

Now, by "less consideration," I'm not saying they're going to throw your (or indeed an unpublished person's) story out, and say, "Nay! Thou shalt not be considered!"

I mean what one of my well-published friends calls writer points.

Writer points are the amount of good will that you have with an editor or slush reader going into a story. If an editor picks up a properly formatted manuscript, with nice, dark, easy to read writing, that's professional-looking -- bang. That's writer points.

If you've been to a workshop that the editor has respect for, that's writer points. If your cover letter is pithy and grammatical, writer points. If your first sentence has good grammar, and perhaps even something intriguing about it, writer points.

If you can credit a pro market, writer points. If you can credit a non-pro, but good market, writer points. And so on.

And writer points can happen in reverse. Messy, unformatted manuscript. Negative writer points. Long, rambly cover letter with strange proclamations about the voices in your head that have told you to send out hte story. Negative writer points. First sentence with an unclear subject, no strong voice, and a cliche. Negative writer points.

Market that the editor has had a bad experience with, or knows isn't very discerning, negative writer points.

And this is all automatic and mostly subconscious, in the same way that when you as the reader pick up a magazine, you are more likely to be like "oooh, nice production values" and be more likely to persist through slightly boring content, whereas something printed in red ink on pink paper upside down is likely to have annoyed you before you begin reading.

To be frank, I'm not sure how much previous publicaiton credits matter at all. Others have said it, but I'll say it: I think the idea that you have to have a previous publication credit in order to be taken seriously is bupkiss.

If you can put Realms of Fantasy in your cover letter, you get a boost. If you put down a market that has no reputation or a poor reputation, why would you get a boost? The boost of Realms of Fantasy comes from the fact that the editor reading your manuscript knows you can produce excellent work that can get through a tough slush pile to catch the attention of an editor with a good reputation. Publishing with a market that has no prestige, or a negative reputation, is NOT going to count for the same thing. Putting ROF on your cover letter is, in a way, sort of like putting "was once endorsed by Shawna" on your cover letter (only in a polite fashion). That positive association isn't going to happen if the editor doesn't know and trust the person you were endorsed by.

If you have no credits in your cover letter, you can still look clean and professional. You may excite the idea of discovery in the editor -- that they could be the first to publish you.

Putting the name of a market that has no, or a negative, reputation, on your cover letter, on the other hand, MAY signal the editor  "this writer can't sell their work to bigger markets." (Not all editors are the same, so it won't signal all editors this way.) It may signal "this is a persistent, dedicated writer, who perhaps isn't quite ready for the big leagues." It may signal nothing at all.

I don't mean that you shouldn't submit to low or no prestige markets if you want to. Assess your goals. If you want to reach readers with a story you don't think you can sell elsewhere, do it.

But I think it is fallacious to believe that it will help your career.

--

In this note, I am speaking of markets generally. I am not talking about this particular market, of which I have no experience outside this message board.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 03:03:45 PM by palimpsest »



scottjanssens

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Reply #7 on: May 27, 2007, 05:41:13 PM
Palimpsest is right.  If an author lists any pro or prestigious semi-pro credits in his/her cover letter, I'm likely to read the submission with a bit more tolerance.  Mentioning an unpaying market or one I've never heard of (and I'm well versered in small markets) doesn't hurt an author, but it doesn't gain an author anything either.  I'm speaking of an unpublished story here.  Always mention the market if the story was published.

Maybe one of these days I'll post what not to put in one's cover letter.



Russell Nash

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Reply #8 on: May 29, 2007, 09:22:12 AM
Maybe one of these days I'll post what not to put in one's cover letter.

You could probably save yourself a lot of grief if you put up a form or example cover letter for people submitting to EP.



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #9 on: May 29, 2007, 06:02:16 PM
But I think it is fallacious to believe that it will help your career.

Mentioning an unpaying market or one I've never heard of (and I'm well versered in small markets) doesn't hurt an author, but it doesn't gain an author anything either.

...Which would be true if we sold stories to be published in a vaccum.  However, every story published means that it reaches an audience, and when even top publications have trouble selling more than 30,000--including ASIMOV'S and REALMS OF FANTASY--you can easily publishing on a website and get similiar audience numbers.

So, no, being published on a unpaying market doesn't do a thing for selling that next story.  However, it's very good for building up a fanbase that will buy you work months and years down the line.   



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #10 on: May 29, 2007, 06:08:32 PM
Quote
you can easily publishing on a website and get similiar audience numbers

Which non-paying genre markets with low or no prestige get 30,000 unique downloads?



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #11 on: May 29, 2007, 06:33:10 PM
Quote
you can easily publishing on a website and get similiar audience numbers

Which non-paying genre markets with low or no prestige get 30,000 unique downloads?

365 tomorrows reaches an average unique audience of 900,000, according to the Alexa data.

Topping 30,000 is nothing.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 06:36:56 PM by JaredAxelrod »



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #12 on: May 29, 2007, 06:42:18 PM
Per story?

I've had access to some circulation numbers for webzines because of something I'm doing for SFWA, and I'm skeptical that people are really getting as much exposure as you think they are.

I also think that exposure is not as worthwhile as you seem to think it is. You can't build a fan base simply by having a story out there. It has to be a story that is good and memorable enough to hook into the reader's brain so that they remember it, and you, enough to follow you from sale to sale. You also have to attract people who are willing to follow you out of markets that cost nothing to places where they may have to pay for your work.

You can't just publish. You have to publish GOOD stuff.

And, frankly, most publications with no prestige aren't screening the good stuff from the crap. A good editorial hand is part of what you get along with your pay, which is why I'm willing to take a pay hit and sell work for $5 or $10, if I can work with a great editor -- say John Klima at Electric Velocipede, or Eric Marin at Lone Star Stories. Note that while both markets have low pay, they are also both well-regarded.

And also that they afford authors the respect of a payment, even if that payment is low.



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #13 on: May 29, 2007, 06:59:24 PM
Per story?

Sure.  They have a new story up every day.  So that's a much more acurate guess of how many readers per story than assuming all 31,000 Asimov's readers have read the thing cover to cover.

I've had access to some circulation numbers for webzines because of something I'm doing for SFWA, and I'm skeptical that people are really getting as much exposure as you think they are.

I also think that exposure is not as worthwhile as you seem to think it is. You can't build a fan base simply by having a story out there. It has to be a story that is good and memorable enough to hook into the reader's brain so that they remember it, and you, enough to follow you from sale to sale. You also have to attract people who are willing to follow you out of markets that cost nothing to places where they may have to pay for your work.

You can't just publish. You have to publish GOOD stuff.

And, frankly, most publications with no prestige aren't screening the good stuff from the crap. A good editorial hand is part of what you get along with your pay, which is why I'm willing to take a pay hit and sell work for $5 or $10, if I can work with a great editor -- say John Klima at Electric Velocipede, or Eric Marin at Lone Star Stories. Note that while both markets have low pay, they are also both well-regarded.

And also that they afford authors the respect of a payment, even if that payment is low.

If you're looking for an editor to pat you on the head, then yes, your advice to only submit to places that will provide prestige within their limited pages.  If you are looking for an audience, say, like the 20,000+ readers and listeners of Matt Selznick's self-published novel Brave Men Run, or the impressive audience for Mur Lafterty's Heaven.  These authors, too, have accepted paycuts.  But they get an extensive audience in exchange rather than the paternal guidence you're looking for.

If your work is crap, it's not going to get remembered by any audience whether it gets published or not.  So I fail to see how reaching out for the biggest audience possible is harmful.



raygunray

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Reply #14 on: May 29, 2007, 07:01:28 PM
At a con in Orlando, Jack McDevitt said beginning writers should only target top shelf markets like Asimov's or at least moderate to high circulation markets.  It may take longer, but once your byline appears next to well established writers, your reputation will be built on a solid foundation.  A credit in a major market grabs the attention of editors and publishers, and earns many "writers points" in one drop.

Also, I have heard that targeting certain magazines is a far superior tactic than the scattershot approach of publishing anywhere the editors will have you.  You may earn a pile or rejection slips, but the editor will begin to recognize your name and see the progress of your writing.  If you get a "close-but-no-cigar" rejection letter, as opposed to the boilerplate rejection letter, then that is a sign that your story won't go straight to the slushpile. You have grabbed the editor's attention as a potential sale; a real sale is not far behind if you follow his/her advice.

From personal experience, I have gained nothing by publishing for nada.  Also, I have helped and buried several zines that never go anywhere due to disorganization and lack of dedication.  Around thirty, I told myself that if I ever got back into writing, I will only publish with paying markets.  As a web designer, some people want me to do charity work on a zine which I politely decline. I get paid to do the wild thing.

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #15 on: May 29, 2007, 07:05:08 PM
Ray,

I agree with much of what you're saying. I've got a couple quibbles...

Quote
Also, I have heard that targeting certain magazines is a far superior tactic

I can't think of a pro editor I've talked to who agrees with that. Gordon Van Gelder, for instance, urged our Clarion West class not to edit ourselves, but to let him do it for us. The top-down method is fairly well-respected.

I have a few writer friends who do quite well with targetting, because they have worked with editors long enough that they know who's most likely to pick stuff up. It seems to work best for people who A) have been selling pro for several years at least, and B) are writing stories that fit well within pre-defined boundaries. Admittedly, it's hard to tell whether they sell their stories within one or two tries because they're targetting correctly, or because they write so well that they'd be likely to be accepted by any markets they targetted.

Quote
If you get a "close-but-no-cigar" rejection letter, as opposed to the boilerplate rejection letter, then that is a sign that your story won't go straight to the slushpile.


Close-but-no-cigars are definitely great, but I don't think they mean that you get sifted out of the slush in future. It seems to vary by market.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 07:07:24 PM by palimpsest »



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #16 on: May 29, 2007, 07:53:51 PM
From personal experience, I have gained nothing by publishing for nada

That's weird. I've gotten invitations to speak at conventions, requests for more work for anthologies, a devoted audience that promotes me for free and contacts with some of the smartest people in modern publishing.

Guess it's not that way for everyone...



raygunray

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Reply #17 on: May 29, 2007, 08:13:46 PM
Quote
Guess it's not that way for everyone...

Those experiences were from my early, literary days. There were so many sincere people who wanted to start the next Anitoch Review who never got one issue of the press. 

I have only attempted to publish SF in the last two years and I have found that the SF community is less flaky and more supportive. I think my mistake was that I couldn't tell a dilletante from a serious professional and ended up in abortive enterprises.

Sure, I'm a little jaded, but I've noticed the SF community is serious minded and professional. The seem to appreciate those who work with no expectation of compensation much more than the literary and essay fruits do.

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JaredAxelrod

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Reply #18 on: May 29, 2007, 08:32:45 PM
Sure, I'm a little jaded, but I've noticed the SF community is serious minded and professional. The seem to appreciate those who work with no expectation of compensation much more than the literary and essay fruits do.

"Essay fruits."  I like that.



scottjanssens

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Reply #19 on: May 30, 2007, 01:43:14 AM
You could probably save yourself a lot of grief if you put up a form or example cover letter for people submitting to EP.

Dear Editor,

Here is my 2,500-word story "Androids I Have Loved".  It has previously appeared in [market].  Thank you for your considertion.


Yours,

Jane Q. Writer



J.R. Blackwell

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Reply #20 on: May 30, 2007, 03:35:00 AM
I've been paid for my fiction. I've given my fiction away for free. I've been rewarded for both.

Allow me to share a story with you. I've just graduated from Penn with my Masters degree. While at Penn, I took a class in the philosophy of biology. A large portion of this class was studying evolution and the perception of evolution in popular culture. When the Flying Spaghetti Monster was mentioned in class, I looked it up on the web.

I was very amused by what I found. In the process of procrastinating on writing my final report for the class I wrote a short, humorous essay about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. An online science magazine was offering 100$ dollars worth of Raman to the person who wrote the funniest essay about the flying spaghetti monster. I submitted my essay, knowing that the best I could do was 100$ worth of noodles. Noodles. Not cash.

I had almost forgotten about the contest when I got an e-mail from an editor at Random House. The editor wanted my permission to put my essay in the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. A few months later my words were selling in bookstores. I remember looking at the Amazon bestseller list and seeing that The Gospel was just below a Steven King thriller.

I could have decided that I wouldn't submit because I wasn't going to get paid. If I had never submitted to that non-paying market, I would not have been published in stores in The Gospel. My essay would have just been a private laugh for my friends and family.

Make no mistake; I want to make a living out of my writing someday. I'm not going to give everything away for free. However, a little generosity at this stage in my career has been beneficial. The first time I submitted to a paying market the editor already knew my name because of the fiction I'd been giving away on the web. 

I have more stories in me than I could write in a lifetime. I am wealthy with stories. 
I can afford to give them away.

My Podcast: http://voicesoftomorrow.libsyn.com
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SFEley

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Reply #21 on: May 30, 2007, 04:54:37 AM
365 tomorrows reaches an average unique audience of 900,000, according to the Alexa data.

Topping 30,000 is nothing.

Um.  I hate to correct this, because I actually pretty much agree with your points in spirit (as you know), but I think you've got your numbers a bit backwards.  An Alexa rank of 915,000 does not signify an audience size of nearly a million.  In fact it implies quite the opposite.

The Alexa rank is a relative ranking against other tracked sites.  What this number means is that, of all the people using the Alexa toolbar in their Web browsers, there are 915,000 sites more popular than 365Tomorrows.com.

In contrast, Wikipedia has an Alexa rank of 9.  Yahoo! has rank 1.  Escape Pod's rank is currently 508,000, and Strange Horizons is 261,000.

I personally don't set a lot of store by these numbers.  I don't know who uses the Alexa toolbar, or why, so I don't know who they're tracking.  But you can't use Alexa to communicate the audience size of a site.  You have to look at that site's server stats. 

And yes, 30,000 unique visitors in a month would be a very solid number.  Escape Pod's site receives requests from roughly 50,000 distinct hosts in a month.  900,000 would be stratospheric.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 05:14:04 AM by SFEley »

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #22 on: May 30, 2007, 06:25:34 AM
Payment in noodles is different than payment in exposure. The one is barter. The other is a gift economy.

Give away your stories if that's what you're interested in. I don't prefer to appear in markets that don't think my work is worth money, although, as I indicated previously, I am willing to accept less payment to work with an editor or project I consider especially worthwhile.



Russell Nash

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Reply #23 on: May 30, 2007, 07:32:34 AM
I'm treading on thin ice as a non-writer, but I noticed a point that wasn't coming up.(or wasn't being plainly expressed)

Not all paying markets are equal, and not all non-paying markets are equal.  The Gospel was for a website that was getting massive traffic and recognition.  This thread was started by someone starting a podcast from scratch.  Escape Pod pays something like $50, but so does Readers Digest if you're the first person to send in a funny quote from Leno. 

I think you need to assess more than just what it pays. You need to assess quality and popularity of the market.



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #24 on: May 30, 2007, 01:31:20 PM
Um.  I hate to correct this, because I actually pretty much agree with your points in spirit (as you know), but I think you've got your numbers a bit backwards.  An Alexa rank of 915,000 does not signify an audience size of nearly a million.  In fact it implies quite the opposite.

Correct all you want.  I'm cool. 

What's a good website for comparing the veiwership of other sites?



SFEley

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Reply #25 on: May 30, 2007, 04:18:49 PM
Not all paying markets are equal, and not all non-paying markets are equal.  The Gospel was for a website that was getting massive traffic and recognition.  This thread was started by someone starting a podcast from scratch.  Escape Pod pays something like $50, but so does Readers Digest if you're the first person to send in a funny quote from Leno. 

Actually, Escape Pod pays $100 now.  Pseudopod pays $50.

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


SFEley

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Reply #26 on: May 30, 2007, 04:24:17 PM
What's a good website for comparing the veiwership of other sites?

There is no central source for that information.  If the Web site wants to use a tracking service like SiteMeter and make the results public, you'll usually see a link on the site itself.  If they don't want to, you'll never know what their stats are.

With Escape Pod, you can find the download count for every episode at the bottom of the episode post, and you can see our daily Feedburner circulation count in the sidebar.  I don't mind people knowing this stuff.  I haven't bothered to do much with the Web traffic mostly because I don't think it's as important.  I do use Google Analytics, but I don't check it very often and haven't bothered to figure out if it can be made public.

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


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Reply #27 on: May 30, 2007, 04:32:42 PM
You could probably save yourself a lot of grief if you put up a form or example cover letter for people submitting to EP.

Dear Editor,

Here is my 2,500-word story "Androids I Have Loved".  It has previously appeared in [market].  Thank you for your considertion.


Yours,

Jane Q. Writer


Would it be the same thing, minus the "It has been previously published bit" for an unpublished story?


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #28 on: May 30, 2007, 05:33:32 PM
"Not all paying markets are equal, and not all non-paying markets are equal."

That's why I tried to say prestige instead of pay.

I actually (and most writers I know do this) have a fairly complex heuristic for figuring out where to send, where I adjust for things like pay, prestige, circulation, how much I like the project, whether people I know have had good or bad experiences with the editor, and so on.

For instance, Escape Pod has excellent pay for a reprint market (most markets do not accept reprints), is well-respected among people who know about SF (as far as I can tell), has a lot of listeners, a project I approve of, and I've never spoken to anyone who is disgruntled with Steve, while there are many glowing reports.

With something like Electric Velocipede -- the pay is poor, few people read it, but those that do speak very highly of it and may be people I want to read my work because they share my aesthetic or are editors I want to publish with (it was one of the few zines that Gordon knew when he was teaching at CW05), John Klima has a good reputation as an editor, and I've never heard of anyone who has a bad experience with it.

It's possible I'd sub someplace that didn't pay if some of the other factors were high enough (high prestige, an excellent editor, a project I really respect). For instance, Doug Lain and M. K. Hobson are starting a progressive political magazine out of Portland, and as I support political fiction and Mary's a friend, I might donate them a story or poem if they weren't going to pay. (Although I wouldn't look at such a donation as being "career advancing," except insofar as it reinforces my relationship with the editors. It would be a favor and statement of support, not a career move.)

Prestige is the term that I'm using to encompass all these factors, plus a more generalized sort of reputation.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 05:36:11 PM by palimpsest »



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #29 on: May 30, 2007, 05:47:53 PM
Okay, then.  I went straight to the horses mouth in order to cold, hard facts.  Something I should have done the first time, I know, I know....

I contacted Steve Smith, who's currently running 365tomorrows, and he says it gets about 15,000 unique viewers and 300,000 page views each month.  Certainly less than I said earlier, but I contend it's still impressive. 

And it turns out I was wrong about ASIMOV'S, as well.  The 31,000 I quoted was 2005 numbers.  A recent essay by Warren Ellis says "ANALOG, FSF and ASIMOV'S are said to do between 15K and 20K."   I'm not sure where he gets his numbers, but I imagine he, like myself, has a friend on the inside he can ask.

So, no, 365tomorrows.com does not give you a better audience. But it does give you a comparable audience.  Also, Escape Pod is clearly the best place to submit to, as it gives you semi-pro rates, extensive audience and a Steve Eley intro.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 02:23:07 PM by JaredAxelrod »



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Reply #30 on: May 30, 2007, 06:54:45 PM
Writer points are the amount of good will that you have with an editor or slush reader going into a story. If an editor picks up a properly formatted manuscript, with nice, dark, easy to read writing, that's professional-looking -- bang. That's writer points.

As a former manager who had to do hiring, a simple litmus test for potential employees was to put in the posting "E-mails with attachments will not be read.  Please paste your resume into the body of the e-mail."  I still got hundreds with attachments, and I ignored them all.  I'm willing to bet I lost a few good candidates that way, but if you can't follow that simple instruction, then how can I trust you to follow the big ones?

Quote
If your cover letter is pithy and grammatical, writer points. If your first sentence has good grammar, and perhaps even something intriguing about it, writer points.

That's how I got my current job.  I wasn't as perfectly-qualified as I should have been -- my skills in VB and Flash were lacking -- but I was the exact type of generalist my current boss was looking for.  My cover letter started out with something like:

"Greetings.  I'm writing in response to the Web Project Producer position that you posted on Craigslist.com.

You can stop looking.

No, seriously.  You can."

And then I gave a two-short-paragraph summary of why I would be the right person for the job.

The trick is to be amusing without being arrogant.

As for writing... well... I have to finish something new before I can write a cover letter for it, and right now the well is a little dry for me.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #31 on: May 30, 2007, 07:40:36 PM
Not all paying markets are equal, and not all non-paying markets are equal.  The Gospel was for a website that was getting massive traffic and recognition.  This thread was started by someone starting a podcast from scratch.  Escape Pod pays something like $50, but so does Readers Digest if you're the first person to send in a funny quote from Leno. 

Actually, Escape Pod pays $100 now.  Pseudopod pays $50.


I was going back and forth on that and couldn't remember where it was now. That's why I had the hedging phrase "Something like".



scottjanssens

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Reply #32 on: May 31, 2007, 12:14:41 AM
Also, Escape Pod is clearly the best place to submit to, as it gives you pro rates, extensive audience and a Steve Eley intro.

Escape Pod, unfortunately, isn't in a position to pay pro rates... yet.  Pro rates, as defined by SFWA, is a minimum of 5 cents a word.  For a market to be considered a pro market, all stories published by that market must pay at a 5 cent rate.  Escape Pod pays $20 for stories up to 2000 words.  At 2000 words, that's 1 cent a word.  At our flat rate of $100, a 5000 word story will get you 2 cents a word.

Of course even at pro rates, if one is writing for the money, one is quite foolish.



scottjanssens

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Reply #33 on: May 31, 2007, 12:18:43 AM
Would it be the same thing, minus the "It has been previously published bit" for an unpublished story?

Yes.  I should point out that this is my advise for short stories.  Cover letters for agent or novel queries are a whole 'nother ballgame.



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #34 on: May 31, 2007, 02:22:48 PM
Also, Escape Pod is clearly the best place to submit to, as it gives you pro rates, extensive audience and a Steve Eley intro.

Escape Pod, unfortunately, isn't in a position to pay pro rates... yet.  Pro rates, as defined by SFWA, is a minimum of 5 cents a word.  For a market to be considered a pro market, all stories published by that market must pay at a 5 cent rate.  Escape Pod pays $20 for stories up to 2000 words.  At 2000 words, that's 1 cent a word.  At our flat rate of $100, a 5000 word story will get you 2 cents a word.

Of course even at pro rates, if one is writing for the money, one is quite foolish.

'Scuse me.  I meant to say "semi-pro."  I'll edit the earlier post.

You gotta admit, though: a Steve Eley intro is priceless.



goatkeeper

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Reply #35 on: June 01, 2007, 03:27:35 AM


I have more stories in me than I could write in a lifetime. I am wealthy with stories. 
I can afford to give them away.


Ah well, I have learned a lot from reading these responses about popular attitudes on publishing.

I can't help but see the parallel between my experience as a musician and writers offering work for free.  As a professional classical guitarist I remember graduating from Conservatory with the somewhat naive idea that I would play concerts and be paid for them and that was simply the way it worked.  I did play many concerts and was able to barely support myself but it was easy to see after awhile that the market for classical music just wasn't large enough to support all the amazing performers being trained to work in that markert.  It certainly was not easy to "make it" and "keep it" as a classical musician.  I'm pretty good at marketing myself and had won some competitions and received some recognition but Sony still wasn't beating down my door to record me.
After some time I realized what a waste it was to perform exclusivly with my only goal being to achieve notoriety, or at the very least, to sustain myself on a performing career.  The reason I learned music and worked so hard at making it was to share it with other people, and here I was catering exclusively to that one little niche that all the other musicians were competing for. 
Currerntly 50% of my performances are done in public schools, nursing homes, senior centers and hospitals, for free or for nominal costs.  Not only do paid gigs generally come from these experiences, but I feel like I am nurturing future  new audiences by exposing them to music they wouldn't have heard otherwise.

I have bought books from several authors online that I only knew about because they threw stuff on podiobooks and escapepod.  These authors have inspired me to write more, and that has brought me such happiness!  I donate to escapepod and support authors because I appreciate them reaching out and creating worlds, sparking my imagination. 



raygunray

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Reply #36 on: June 01, 2007, 01:35:31 PM
Quote
I did play many concerts and was able to barely support myself but it was easy to see after awhile that the market for classical music just wasn't large enough to support all the amazing performers being trained to work in that market.

I recall Vonnegut speech called "How to Have a Job Like Mine" which advised would be working writers on how to have a full-time writers career.  "You Can't." He began.  This was in the 90's where paying short fiction and essay markets had dried up and because people weren't  reading consumer literature like they used to. 

Nowadays most writers, musicians and artists realize they may never do what love full-time and will need a day job.  I knew an illustrator whose works appear on New Yorker who wait tables to "get at least 1200 calories a day and a place to live without cockroaches."  It can happen, but the days of "coldwater flats" are gone.  The cost of living is just too high.

I've changed my position on pro bono writing from reading all the posts here.  I meant no disrespect to writers and editors who work for free.  It is, above all, about the quality and reputation of the venue rather than pay scale. 

Also, I prefer the donation system better since readers don't have to lock themselves into a subscription and they can pay what they can afford.  Readers are allowed to come and go as they please.

Diabetic in Candyland -
Stories about Winning at Losing and Failing Successfully.


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #37 on: June 01, 2007, 03:21:22 PM
No one's supporting themselves on short stories. However, pay rate is still one of the signals of a market that has acquired high prestige and reputation.



Heradel

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Reply #38 on: June 01, 2007, 07:42:10 PM
Perhaps the difference is age? As a student you're starving, but that's to be expected. You're more actively learning, you're getting as much personal value from practice as you would if you were paid for it, which makes it easier to give out. If you're a professional, well, part of the definition is that you get paid for it, and though you're still learning, you're not writing to learn like a student.

For example, a friend of mine's an actor. He wants to do a serial comedy (well, webisodes) and post them to youtube/funnyordie. He's been able to rope in a fair number of people to volunteer time for it, including myself (throughly behind the camera, which is where I likes it). No one's expecting to do anything but have some fun, get it done, and practice.

If we were ten years older... well, the equation would be different.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


DKT

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Reply #39 on: June 01, 2007, 08:39:19 PM
Kind of a slight tangent: There's certainly something to be said for feedback.  Probably one of the most satisfying experiences I've ever had as a writer was reading an unpublished short story to two of my best friends (who were definitely a slice of the target audience).  They're reaction to the story right then, right there is something I don't think I'll ever be able to top with that story.  I haven't been paid anything for it yet (I'm still trying to sell it to) but their reaction is the best payment I think I've ever received. 

You can get feedback kind of like that with publishing online.  Although I think it does help if you have an outlet like Escape Pod, Pseudopod, or 365 Tomorrows that's already got a fanbase (which will hopefully help build your own fanbase) as opposed to a newer, untested market. 


goatkeeper

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Reply #40 on: June 02, 2007, 12:43:41 AM
As someone who is new to podcasting and has no intention of ever being a "professional" writer, I'm not trying to make any particular point as much as I am trying to understand other peoples points here.

While I agree that all artists should be paid for the work they do, I wonder if the attitude of "expecting to be paid for all my work" might also be dangerous in some regards.  Offering some good, free work to the public- not for the sake of getting your name out there or even to reap in feedback, but simply to turn people on to science fiction and other genres- seems to be worthwhile.  This seems to be part of what the spirit of escapepod is about.

So, if this is true, will it always be the job of Steve Eley's around the world to be entrepreneurial and start projects that do the work of attracting fans and relying on their donations to support authors.  It works for escapepod (praise be to cthulhu) and who knows how many fans of science fiction escapepod has created by offering work for free.  But will this model always be successful?  I don't understand why a writer would resist offering occasional work to the public simply as an act of outreach.

Perhaps the difference is age? As a student you're starving, but that's to be expected. You're more actively learning, you're getting as much personal value from practice as you would if you were paid for it, which makes it easier to give out. If you're a professional, well, part of the definition is that you get paid for it, and though you're still learning, you're not writing to learn like a student.



If we were ten years older... well, the equation would be different.



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #41 on: June 02, 2007, 02:50:36 AM
Offering work to the public is a different part of the equation, neh? Escape Pod is free to listeners. Strange Horizons is free to the audience. Both markets pay their authors.



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #42 on: June 02, 2007, 03:04:24 AM
"As someone who is new to podcasting and has no intention of ever being a "professional" writer, I'm not trying to make any particular point as much as I am trying to understand other peoples points here."

I have to say -- I find this disingenous. You're specifically asking people to give you their work for free; therefore, you have a dog in the fight. You are expecting people to donate their labor to you.

You asked why people aren't subbing to you. I said "I expect to be paid for my work" as a shorthand. In many of the message boards I frequent, there are common calls such as this for people to submit work to markets that pay in "exposure." Such offers overflow. I could send my work to them all day, and get paid for nothing I do.

I'm a professional, full-time writer. I have to make judgment calls about where to send my work, and why. I submit to markets that pay well because generally they have larger audiences, more dedicated audiences, established reputations, and editors I can rely on to be professional and to select good stories. I submit to other markets that appeal to me for various reasons which I have enumerated here.

I'm not going to sub to you simply because you're around and asking. There are lots of markets. You have to make yourself appealing.

So, you post a request for subs. I, as a writer, consider that request.

Step one: Do you pay? No. Okay, I'm going to write you off. That's my first stage of screening, because it's easy, and because it tends to be a shorthand for prestige. Pay and prestige tend to be correlated, though not identical. So, right off, I'm not going to sub to you. I might later, if you came to my attention for some reason, and I reevaluated the situation.

Step two: Have I heard of you before? Do I know you? Do people I trust know you? Is there buzz about you? Are you supporting some kind of fiction that I can't place elsewhere for some reason? If these answers are yes, then maybe I'd go to step three.

Step three: Is your website beautiful? Are your submission guidelines crisp and professional? If I listen to your podcast, are your stories going to be awesome? Will they have fantastic production values? Are you publishing people I've heard of? Seriously -- are the stories great? When I hear from my friend Y that she sent you a story, is she going to tell me, "The whole experience was fantastic! He sent me his notes, we exchanged emails, he's really perceptive. And I love the person they had reading it!"

There are lots of markets; you're going to have to court writers by being wonderful in some way. Being a new market (so many of them fold), being a venue I've never heard of (and thus have no reason to trust), and not paying is three strikes against you.

I'm sure there are points in your favor. I haven't gone over and looked at your site, because I knew from the posts you'd made here that I wasn't going to sub to you at this time. Still, I'm sure you have great qualities. Do you take reprints? Writers of my acquaintance, myself included, are more likely to place reprints in markets that don't pay, since we've already been renumerated.

If you don't already, I'd suggest that you specifically solicit people whose work you want to feature. It makes people feel nice, and that way you get work that you love, and hopefully that your audience will love too. Sometimes, the whims of the slush pile are sad and grey, and you cannot find beautiful things just by waiting for them to come in over the transom.

Beyond that, if your podcast is kickass, people will buzz. Buzzing will attract writers. Writers will sub to you. Maybe you'll be so awesome and have so many listeners that even curmudgeonly me would sub to you, despite the lack of pay.

But the point is that you're unlikely to get scads of high quality slush just by asking. Just as writers have to give you material that's good enough to publish, you have to give us a reason to trust you with our work.

--

Heradel: By the by, I'm 25. I donated work to lit mags in college, but I didn't sub stories to non-paying external markets. ;-)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 03:32:19 AM by palimpsest »



goatkeeper

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Reply #43 on: June 02, 2007, 12:47:20 PM
Palimpsest, your response more or less answered what my first post in this topic asked (and your one of the only ones, so thanks!)

However, this thread strayed into a different direction about philosophies on pro bono writing, and that's what my last post was regarding.

Regarding my own podcast, I think you have the wrong impression of it.  I think all the points you bring up are valid for many podcasts- Drabblecast is a bit difference.  It's an avenue for the everyday writer to get ideas and stories out.  It's all flashfiction, the longest story is 10-15 minutes) and simply a way to encourage people to write- anyone.  We have had some from this forum send in good stories and a few "professional" writers, as well as lawyers, bass fisherman and school teachers.  The idea is that there are a lot of people out there who have neat ideas and can write a great flash fiction story about them, that don't care about all the things you mentioned.  As for the stories- the Drabblecast has a steady listener base and active forum of 80-100 people since it began in late Feb.  I don't consider that too bad- I'm happy to give a bit of my time to get some of the great stories I get sent out to anyone who is willing to hear them.  There isn't a prob with people subbing or listening to my podcast- I just wanted to understand some writers feelings on pro bono writing.



Heradel

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Reply #44 on: June 02, 2007, 03:43:11 PM
Heradel: By the by, I'm 25. I donated work to lit mags in college, but I didn't sub stories to non-paying external markets. ;-)

Twas not my intent to bestow any accusations of great age upon any person, and by age I meant more a before-deep-down-realizing-they-need-to-make-their-own-money-to-live momentary sort of age. And I'm sure that there are people that really never need to work that never feel that. It also has to do with a person's temperament, their friends, their friends' ability to pressure said person into things. I'm ok with not getting paid for some of my work, if I liked doing the work and would have been compelled to do it anyway. I'd much prefer getting paid, but I'm not focusing on it, yet.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


goatkeeper

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Reply #45 on: June 03, 2007, 12:07:32 AM


I have to say -- I find this disingenous. You're specifically asking people to give you their work for free; therefore, you have a dog in the fight. You are expecting people to donate their labor to you.



Thanks for your reply by the way. Although I think you could have written a flash fiction story to sub for the amount of time you spent writing an explantion of why you wouldn't sub. :-)



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #46 on: June 03, 2007, 04:41:28 AM
Presumably there are numerous more productive things that either of us could do than hanging out on this message board at all.



goatkeeper

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Reply #47 on: June 03, 2007, 11:53:10 AM
well put sir



Russell Nash

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Reply #48 on: June 03, 2007, 12:01:49 PM
well put sir

Make that more gender neutral or you're in for a tirade. (he's a she)



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #49 on: June 04, 2007, 03:17:25 PM
Eh, "Well put, sir" strikes me as close enough to a figure of speech.



goatkeeper

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Reply #50 on: June 04, 2007, 03:43:34 PM
whew



Listener

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Reply #51 on: June 04, 2007, 03:51:21 PM
Kind of a slight tangent: There's certainly something to be said for feedback.  Probably one of the most satisfying experiences I've ever had as a writer was reading an unpublished short story to two of my best friends (who were definitely a slice of the target audience).  They're reaction to the story right then, right there is something I don't think I'll ever be able to top with that story.  I haven't been paid anything for it yet (I'm still trying to sell it to) but their reaction is the best payment I think I've ever received. 

You can get feedback kind of like that with publishing online.  Although I think it does help if you have an outlet like Escape Pod, Pseudopod, or 365 Tomorrows that's already got a fanbase (which will hopefully help build your own fanbase) as opposed to a newer, untested market. 

I think that may be why there are so many dead blogs laying around... no feedback, no comments, just the occasional trackback... it can be disheartening to a blogger.

The same with writers.

However good feedback is, though, it can be problematic when you're only getting it from your circle of friends/family.  They may be unwilling to tell you if something sucks.  That's an important part of the process, too: if something sucks, someone has to tell you how it sucks and what should be changed.  Otherwise, the writing will continue to suck.  IMO.

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DKT

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Reply #52 on: June 04, 2007, 05:12:40 PM
[However good feedback is, though, it can be problematic when you're only getting it from your circle of friends/family.  They may be unwilling to tell you if something sucks.  That's an important part of the process, too: if something sucks, someone has to tell you how it sucks and what should be changed.  Otherwise, the writing will continue to suck.  IMO.

Oh, without a doubt.  I'm not suggesting you just read something to friends and family for a good critique (unless those are the only people you ever plan on showing the story too).  You need to trust people to tell you if something doesn't work.  But I was talking more about feedback after the story is done than a WIP. 


Listener

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Reply #53 on: June 04, 2007, 07:50:13 PM
However good feedback is, though, it can be problematic when you're only getting it from your circle of friends/family.  They may be unwilling to tell you if something sucks.  That's an important part of the process, too: if something sucks, someone has to tell you how it sucks and what should be changed.  Otherwise, the writing will continue to suck.  IMO.

Oh, without a doubt.  I'm not suggesting you just read something to friends and family for a good critique (unless those are the only people you ever plan on showing the story too).  You need to trust people to tell you if something doesn't work.  But I was talking more about feedback after the story is done than a WIP. 

I knew what you meant, fear not.

I was part of a writing group for two months.  Then I moved to Atlanta.  I tried to start a new one here but I didn't have the time and I couldn't know if the people who wanted to join were any good.  That's not to say I'd discriminate against bad writers, but the group I was invited to had a bunch of established aspiring fiction writers who -- most of them -- I'd known from college even if I didn't know their writing.  I'm not so good with starting the group, but if I'm brought in, and then asked to take over, I don't mind that so much.

(They wouldn't have asked me to take over, btw.  Just saying.)

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BlairHippo

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Reply #54 on: June 04, 2007, 10:27:49 PM
I'm surprised not many folks from Escapepod seem interested in this opportunity.  Can I ask why? (honestly)

With so many writers out there with good ideas, don't writers want to have their pieces exposed to a steady growing audience?

The two primary tools I (and a lot of other writers) use for market-hunting are Ralan.com and Duotrope.com.  You're not listed on either one.

But even if you were ... okay, go to Ralan.com.  Click on the "Semi- & Pro Markets" link.  Think of this list as "Markets People Will Submit To Before Submitting Stories To Me."

Next, click on the "Paying Markets" link.  This is "MORE Markets People Will Submit To Before Submitting Stories To Me."

Finally, click on the "4theLuv Markets" link.  These markets would be your contemporaries, save that you're not actually listed there.  So this is "EVEN MORE Markets People Will Submit To Before Submitting Stories To Me."

So that's the first reason I'd say your slushpile is so lonely -- people won't submit to you if they don't know you exist.

But let's set that aside for now -- -I- know you exist, even if the EscapePod forums aren't typically the first place I go looking for new markets.  I've taken a look at your market, and I won't be submitting anything to you.  Here's why:

At first glance, the website (http://web.mac.com/normsherman/iWeb/Site/Podcast/Podcast.html) is all right.  It's no-frills, certainly, but I certainly don't see that as a BAD thing.  It's cleanly-organized and easy to use.  But then I take a closer look, and certain problems start to make themselves evident.

First, your submission guidelines.  If you'd like people to submit anything to you, you're going to need some submission guidelines.  This:

Quote
Welcome!  Here you’ll find flash fiction stories of an unusual nature narrated by Norm Sherman.  Short and fun.  Nuggets of happiness.
 
Nuggets.
 
Enjoy!
 
Send stories and such to
goatkeeper@hotmail.com

... does not represent adequate guidelines.

What's your definition of flash?  How many words?  Could you give us anything clearer than "of an unusual nature?"  What kind of file format do you prefer?  Anything?

If by the time I'm done reading a market's guidelines I'm not 95% sure whether a given story of mine has a fighting chance of being accepted, then the guidelines are inadequate.  By virtue of not existing, I'm afraid I have to file your guidelines under "inadequate."

Next, I note that you have comments set up for each story.  Of the 15 stories you have posted, 5 have a single comment.  The rest have none.  And your site counter indicates that just over 800 people have loaded this page.  The overall impression I take away is that few people are listening, and even fewer care.

Finally, there are the by-lines.  Of the 15 stories you have posted, 4 were written solely by you, and two more have you listed as co-author.  When 40% of a market's stories are by the market's editor, that's a pretty serious danger sign that this whole enterprise is just a vanity project.

So before I've listened to a single story, my opinion of your market is pretty negative, and there's nothing there to counteract it; I recognize none of the non-you authors that you've run so far, I've had no writing buddies tell me what a wonderful up-and-coming market you are, etc.  But just to be fair, I downloaded and listened to your five most recent stories.

#14, "Mouse," was all right but unremarkable.  And I liked the idea behind #11; I've never heard a story about hypno-pandas before.  Otherwise, it was a washout.  #11's execution left me unimpressed, and I flat-out disliked the other three stories, strongly.  (You almost had me with #12; I was so disappointed when I learned that the Killer Super-Animal Reality TV thing was just the intro and not the actual story.)  If you really want I can go into more detail about why they didn't work for me, but the short version is that based on these five episodes, the answer to the question "Are these stories I'd be proud to have one of mine associated with?" is a resounding "No."

If you're serious about improving this market, I advise you to:

1)  Get a real URL.  Is "drabblecast.com" taken?  How about "thedrabblecast.com"?  Or ".org"?  It not only makes you look more professional, it improves your word-of-mouth advertising.  Right now if I wanted to tell anybody about your podcast, I'd either have to email them the URL or tell them to look it up on Google.

2)  Set up some submission guidelines.  Make it clear what you do and do not want.

3)  Get yourself listed in Ralan.com and Duotrope.com.  With Ralan, you'll have to ping him and he'll ask you to link back to his site.  Do it.  I know a lot of other places (Duotrope included) use Ralan as the basis for their own listings, so that's an excellent first step.

4)  Pay your authors.  Yes, it ups the level of complexity to the enterprise and forces you to bring contracts into the mix.  Yes, it costs you more.  Do it anyway.  Even a token payment of $5/story gets you out of the "4theLuv" dregs and in the company of some well-regarded markets.  It will cost you no more than $25/month, and if that's too much to spend, then please reconsider whether you really want to be doing this.

5)  Beat the bushes.  Palimpsest is absolutely right; identify authors whose work you enjoy and hit them up for contributions.  Shoot, if you read something you think would be PERFECT for Drabblecast, ask if they'd be willing to sell you that story!  Writers are an egotistical lot by nature, and having an editor explicitly seek you out is validating as hell; I'll bet you get some good stories this way.

6)  Stop running your own work.  Seriously.  Just stop, right now, cold turkey.  It's indulgent and amateurish; once you've established your market you can run your own stuff every once in a while for special occasions, but 6 of your first 15 ... no.

(Or, ignore me entirely and come up with your own way of improving the quality of the fiction you run; I note that "Air Out My Shorts" suffers from several of the deficiencies above [no guidelines, no pay, not listed anywhere], but they seem to be pretty well-regarded.  Ping the folks behind that operation and ask how they got it done.)

Your market is not without redeeming qualities.  It looks like you've been posting one story a week for fifteen weeks now; that kind of consistency matters, a lot.  Your production quality is a little rough, but acceptable; listening to you on my way in to work, I didn't have to keep monkeying with the volume control to hear what was being said, and I have to think that's only going to get better as you gain more experience.

But I really think you have some work in front of you if you're serious about making it worth listening to.

Or worth submitting stories to.

Same thing, really.



BrandtPileggi

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Reply #55 on: June 05, 2007, 01:28:42 AM
Je-sus that was an awesome post. Thanks for all that quality info!



goatkeeper

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Reply #56 on: June 05, 2007, 04:22:38 AM
Good god blairhippo- thanks for taking the time to check out Drabblecast and for responding so thoroughly.  Seriously.  I will check out the websites you recommended and will definitely put up a submissions guideline on the page.  I did describe the guidelines in the first few episodes but then stopped talking about them.  I'm working on a real URL soon also.

In response to your other comments:

I started the Drabblecast as a way to encourage people to write- myself, friends, other writers.  The guidelines are described as "Anything fun, well written and under 2000 words."  The name "DRABBLEcast" doesn't exactly imply that I'm looking for Hugo nominees here.  Since flash fiction is relatively easy to pump out and the podcast is so open, I don't have too much of a problem getting submissions (notice I started this thread to see if any ESCAPEPODISH  writers specifically might want to sub- and some have.)  I sometimes have a problem with stuff that is too "normal" or poorly written to make it on and keeping it weekly and of quality can be tough.
I'm toying with the idea of not having work featured every week- maybe some time frame that makes it easier to have consistant good stories.  But then again, I got a lot of email and feedback from people saying they loved Black and White animals.  And the podcast is free and only 10-15 minutes long, not much of a commitment for any listener.  For something only a few months old and something I've been doing just for fun, it does have a decent amount of listeners (most don't visit the site much but download via itunes or others-  hence lack of activity- also I just put the comment option up.)  I expect the listener base to grow more as I get great feedback such as yours that lets me know how I can make it better. 

I just believe that there are every day people out there who can pump out a great, entertaining short story of 1-2K words or less (or even send in reprints), who don't care if I give them 5 bucks, who think it would simply be fun to have their story read and exposed to other people.  Those people are who I'm looking for. Those people tell their friends to check out the story they wrote being featured on a podcast this week.  Down the road, this may evolve into something where your suggestions will help me even more. 
For now, these are stories about robotic whales, aliens colonizing prehistoric earth, unicorns with back acne, demons, chupacabres and shitzhus that about around 100 people listen to every week just for fun.  I started this thread simply to see if anyone else wanted to join in the fun.

The Drabblecast also started as a way to market my music and cd -"Everybody's Got Nipples"
myspace.com/normsherman (real URL soon).  If I'm doing this for free I feel it's ok to drop mention of my tunes in the occasional intro. 



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #57 on: June 25, 2007, 11:21:26 AM
Hi Norman,

Congratulations on your Ralan market listing!

If you have started paying a cent a word -- congratulations, I think that was a smart business decision. I clicked over to your website, though, and it still says that you're a non-paying (free) market. Perhaps an update is in order?



goatkeeper

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Reply #58 on: June 27, 2007, 04:38:14 AM
Yep- ralan was good advice and so was negotiating with authors- and yes, will be updating sub guidelines this week- thanks!

now just working on trying to get the word out... we've def got some great stories lined up for awhile.



Golgo13

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Reply #59 on: July 08, 2007, 05:06:54 AM
Oh I should have checked this post ages ago...

I've been clamoring for venues to try and get subs sent to in the hopes that I can get some of my work out there to the masses. For a fledgling writer like me, who has stories, but no avenues to send them to, I had no idea that there were sites like Ralan or Duotrope that can point me in the right direction.

I think part of the other problem is that it was hard to tell what outlets were "reputable" as opposed to ones that we might get burned on. There's nothing more frightening to a writer that's just starting out in the publishing world than getting hosed on the first attempt.

I'll take a look at Drabblecast and get a feel for what you're trying to put together, as I think the challenge of doing flash fiction is a worthwhile one. But in the meantime, I'm going to hold off on subs because 1.) I have no stories that fit your criteria, and 2.) I'm still trying to find some solid editors that might give me my first paid commissions for my stories.

Sorry if that seems selfish, but I don't think that I'm the first writer to skip the "4theluv" postings and try to jump into the deep end of the pool.



hautdesert

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Reply #60 on: July 09, 2007, 09:47:56 PM
2.) I'm still trying to find some solid editors that might give me my first paid commissions for my stories.

Sorry if that seems selfish, but I don't think that I'm the first writer to skip the "4theluv" postings and try to jump into the deep end of the pool.

Me, personally, I don't think it's selfish.  I think it's smart.   But then, I Have Ambitions, and so when I'm sending my stories out I want to know one thing--will lots of people read (or hear) my story?  The ability to pay is a pretty reliable sign that a publication has readers, and so I go to the paying markets first. In fact, I go to the highest paying markets first.  (when there's a tie, I pick the fastest response time.) There might be one or two non-paying markets that have a good reputation, and I would sub to them, but not first off.

I think the idea that writers will work hard on a piece and then not submit to a paying market is...odd.  If I want plain old "exposure" on the level most 4-the-luv markets will give me, I'll post on my blog.  If a friend were to ask me to whip something up, I might.  But a cry into the vast wilderness of the internet asking for stories but no money and some kind of undefined exposure?  Nuh uh.  Now, if I had no Ambitions, that likely wouldn't be a problem, because the writing would just be something fun I did in my spare time, but see, that's not what my writing is.  And if it was just spare time fun, why would I bother submitting it anywhere?  I'd just post it on my blog.

And, oddly, I came across this LJ post this morning, so the topic is already on my mind...



goatkeeper

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Reply #61 on: July 10, 2007, 01:33:18 PM

I'll take a look at Drabblecast and get a feel for what you're trying to put together, as I think the challenge of doing flash fiction is a worthwhile one. But in the meantime, I'm going to hold off on subs because 1.) I have no stories that fit your criteria, and 2.) I'm still trying to find some solid editors that might give me my first paid commissions for my stories.

Sorry if that seems selfish, but I don't think that I'm the first writer to skip the "4theluv" postings and try to jump into the deep end of the pool.

We've actually started paying authors as well.  Check out the new submission guidelines http://web.mac.com/normsherman/iWeb/Site/Submission%20Guidelines.html

I think one of the appeals of subbing to an audio publisher like us is that you can often sell the same work elsewhere- we just hold rights to our narration of the story- not the story itself.

Many other writers feel the same as you concerning the 4theluv on ralan.  Once we moved to the paying market section on ralan we've gotten somewhere between 2-4 subs a day rather than 2-4 a week.



BlairHippo

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Reply #62 on: July 10, 2007, 05:07:18 PM
I think one of the appeals of subbing to an audio publisher like us is that you can often sell the same work elsewhere- we just hold rights to our narration of the story- not the story itself.

Uhm, not sure what you mean by this.  It's rare for a market to purchase all rights to the story in perpetuity -- Cicada does, but I can't think of anybody else.  Most places just want first-publishing rights with an exclusivity window where you can't sell it to anybody else.

It's that "first-publishing" thing that's key.  Most places are going to consider publication in audio format as publication -- thus, if the story's been on Drabblecast (or Escape Pod or Air Out My Shorts or your blog or wherever) they'll only consider it if they consider reprints.

Many other writers feel the same as you concerning the 4theluv on ralan.  Once we moved to the paying market section on ralan we've gotten somewhere between 2-4 subs a day rather than 2-4 a week.

Excellent.  I think you'll be quite pleased with the improvement you see in the quality of those stories as well.  :)



goatkeeper

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Reply #63 on: July 13, 2007, 01:21:54 PM


Really?  I was under the impression that more publishers bought exclusive rights to work than that-
Why would publishers want/allow various print forms of a piece they just bought running around in competetive markets?

Thanks for the advise earlier by the way, we've followed most of it and are getting much better stories and hundreds more hits a week.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 01:27:07 PM by goatkeeper »



hautdesert

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Reply #64 on: July 13, 2007, 01:43:38 PM

Really?  I was under the impression that more publishers bought exclusive rights to work than that-
Why would publishers want/allow various print forms of a piece they just bought running around in competetive markets?

Most editors don't take reprints.  Some do, of course.  But why would you want to rule out, say, a story you bought appearing in a Year's Best?  That would be good for you, as an editor, I'd think.  Why would the author want to rule out the story appearing in a themed anthology a few years down the line?  Or in a collection of that author's short fiction?

And if the first sale was to a paper magazine, once the next issue is out, the story isn't really in front of people anymore, and subsequent sales aren't really competing with it.  Online is slightly different, but I think online fiction is still kind of settling itself out right now.  Certainly the fact that, say, Ben Rosenbaum's "House Beyond Your Sky" is available free online at Strange Horizons didn't prevent its being included in Rich Horton's Year's Best.  Neither did the inclusion of Jack Skillingstead's "Life in the Preservation" in that same anthology prevent its being reprinted in the Hartwell & Cramer year's best, or, I think, the Dozois.  (I'm not certain if it's in the Dozois, my copy hasn't come yet, but I'm pretty sure it is.  There's some overlap between all three, in any event.)

There are a few magazines that do buy all rights, as previously noted, but there aren't many in genre that do.  In fact, if I ran across an SF or F publication that wanted all rights you can bet I wouldn't be subbing there.  Some places it doesn't matter--True Confessions buys all rights (or they did when I made my very first fiction sale ever to them years ago), but that doesn't matter, because you don't get a byline and besides that's a particular sort of market.

If you're really enjoying this podcast thing and intend to keep it up, I really recommend doing some research on things like contracts, standard practices, etc.  I'm not trying to be snarky--it's just that the more you know about how publishing generally works and the reasons for various practices, the better you'll be able to make choices so that your podcast will be as good as it can be.




goatkeeper

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Reply #65 on: July 13, 2007, 08:33:02 PM
Well I have done a good bit of research in order to draft the contract we send to authors and make sure we don't get ourselves into trouble.  I'm fortunate enough to have some mentor/teachers at school who are helping me along.  But if you have any helpful links to pass on I'd be much obliged also.

In my hunting around I have found that there are comparitively far fewer sources of "standard proceedures" for online publishing established and even fewer for audio broadcast of short stories.  I have still not found many editors that address audio narrations as true publishings that affect first serial rights and I haven't noticed a  standard proceedure on this- at least not an easily accessible one (although I'd love to have one pointed out to me).





bigtmac

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Reply #66 on: August 30, 2007, 07:37:18 PM
Im so glad I read this thread.

The first reason is that I think drablecast might be a wonderful thing to help get some of my first publishing creds, even if they dont give me writer points, the give me "encouragement points" and that matters a lot when your strugling to overcome all the diffuculties of improving your work to the level needed to make the big jump to professional writer.

Even more important in a way is the inspiration and information it gives me toward moving forward on a podcast myself. I had been wanting to start an escape pod style podcast for military themed short fiction of all kinds; sci fi, fantasy, contemporary, whatever. I had wondered how to go about getting something like that off the ground and this thread was both a gold mine of information ( thank you BlairHippo) as well as an inspiration ( You go goatkeeper ).

Hopefully you will be hearing something from me on drabblecast sometime soon and then perhaps I will eventually join the illustrious ranks of the podcasting elite.

" It may not be any consolation to you, but you have put a smile on my face."




goatkeeper

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Reply #67 on: September 14, 2007, 04:21:20 AM
BigT,
Thanks for the kind words.  I'd be happy to help, if I can, with any questions on setting up your gig.  There are more experienced sources than I, but just throwing that out there.  Hope to read one of your subs soon!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 02:45:10 PM by goatkeeper »



IT_Spook

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Reply #68 on: October 02, 2007, 03:05:50 AM
I gotta say, this is a pretty thread and I've picked up a lot of good info. I've also been going "yep, I made that mistake" or "I've done that before."

I identify myself as a "hobby writer". I've been honing the craft for close to 20 years and do it more for the love of the fans rather than the money (of course, money is always nice). I've got a good collection built up and should be self-publishing my first novella (long story) soon to the tune of about 50 printings (I have 25 pre orders!). Most of all... I am happy.

About 7 years ago, I started wondering if I could get paid for my writing. Right off the bat, I made some of the "mistakes" that have been posted in this thread. Let me explain a few of them:

If I get published lots of places, it means I rock - Oh boy... when I read that line about submitting things to every nook and cranny without consideration to reputation, I felt like sinking down in my seat. I admit it: I did the same thing. Looking back down, I can see the problem that could pose if I ever wanted to be taken seriously. Listing some of these minor, less reputable places on a cover letter would be like telling someone that I have been published by on the wall in the men's bathroom at the bus station... or that I was an ugly girl desperate to go to the prom.

If I give it away for free, I'll be accepted more often - Again, not a bad idea, but I can see how an experienced editor would wonder why someone had so much published at "for the love sites". I probably would still do it, but I wouldn't list it unless it would help my rep. The "free stuff" could be a good forum to try out new material... much like a comedian working a small comedy club. It could also help build a fan base... if the site/publication has the kind of fans you want.

Why should I even try? That site/publication has authors way better than me! - This one still gets me and is probably one of the main reasons I procrastinate about sending something to the 'Pods. Probably explains why I chose not to be a professional writer. If you're going to be serious about living on your words, you can't aim low because good will and free sites don't pay the rent or feed you. You need faith in your work and if you sell yourself short, you're not doing yourself much good.

So, let's jump in Spook's wayback machine and go back 7 years. I was writing short stories and serials on a regular basis and had a pretty decent fan base. I started reading posts about getting paid for your writing, so I figured I take a shot at it. Right off the bat, I made a lot of the mistakes outlined in the post and got extremely frustrated. It took me a while to realize that I had lost focus of the goals of why I wrote in the first place. So, I sat down one night and forced myself to write out what goals I _seriously_ had for my writing. I came up with 4:

(1) I write for pleasure and relaxation; not for fame or fortune.
(2) I want to entertain people.
(3) I wanted to get a work into the Archives of Canada.
(4) Being paid for a story by a reputable market would be nice, but I could live without it.

Wow... After reading my goals, I could see why I had become frustrated with my "chase for fame and fortune". Once I saw what my goals were, I refocused my attempts and to target the right markets not only for my work, but for my goals as well.

I also looked at what I could do to achieve my goals. Goals 1 and 2 had pretty much been obtained, so I moved on to Goal 3. After a bit of research on how to get something into the Archives, I decided the best way that would suit my needs and style would be to self-publish a novella. I could have just done it under my own name, but I thought it would be fun to see how hard it would be to create a publishing company.

An hour later, "Thunderbird Press" was born, registered and I became a publisher/chief editor :).

Time passed and I began to discover more things about myself. Not only had I found the right pace and control over my writing, but I also found that I really enjoyed being a publisher/editor. I didn't so much as publish other people's work as become their editor and I found that just as rewarding as writing. Best yet, I even got paid a bit for it :). Not a lot of serious cash, but that wasn't my goal, so I really didn't mind.

There were still a lot of issues to overcome, but as the years passed, a lot of ideas and resources began to spring up that would help me achieve Goal #3. Thanks to Lulu.com and Podiobooks.com, I now had a way to deliver cost effective print-on-demand services or I had a reputable service to help market my book in audio form to a large audience. I can't forget to mention Escapepod.org because listening to the 'Pod not only motivated me to write, but gave me a little dream to chase that I might someday get on the Pod.

In the end, I'm a lot happier than I was 7 years ago and I found out a lot about myself along the way.

Bottom Line: If you don't know what your writing goals are, you better think about them. If you're a pro, free markets and goodwill don't put food on the table or pay the rent. If you're doing it just to build a fan base, maybe the free sites are right up your alley. If you're like me, maybe you try to skirt that thin line between the two. :)

Sorry if this post rambles, but I felt I had to chip in something to this really informative thread.

"You write novellas? Isn't that like the red-haried stepchild of novels?"


goatkeeper

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Reply #69 on: October 05, 2007, 05:25:18 AM
Thanks for the great post Spook.

Usually I end up killing threads somehow.  Here, somehow a very off topic yet informative developed.

Maybe I just did this one in :o