Author Topic: Have Stories?  (Read 28560 times)

SFEley

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Reply #25 on: May 30, 2007, 04:18:49 PM
Not all paying markets are equal, and not all non-paying markets are equal.  The Gospel was for a website that was getting massive traffic and recognition.  This thread was started by someone starting a podcast from scratch.  Escape Pod pays something like $50, but so does Readers Digest if you're the first person to send in a funny quote from Leno. 

Actually, Escape Pod pays $100 now.  Pseudopod pays $50.

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SFEley

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Reply #26 on: May 30, 2007, 04:24:17 PM
What's a good website for comparing the veiwership of other sites?

There is no central source for that information.  If the Web site wants to use a tracking service like SiteMeter and make the results public, you'll usually see a link on the site itself.  If they don't want to, you'll never know what their stats are.

With Escape Pod, you can find the download count for every episode at the bottom of the episode post, and you can see our daily Feedburner circulation count in the sidebar.  I don't mind people knowing this stuff.  I haven't bothered to do much with the Web traffic mostly because I don't think it's as important.  I do use Google Analytics, but I don't check it very often and haven't bothered to figure out if it can be made public.

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DKT

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Reply #27 on: May 30, 2007, 04:32:42 PM
You could probably save yourself a lot of grief if you put up a form or example cover letter for people submitting to EP.

Dear Editor,

Here is my 2,500-word story "Androids I Have Loved".  It has previously appeared in [market].  Thank you for your considertion.


Yours,

Jane Q. Writer


Would it be the same thing, minus the "It has been previously published bit" for an unpublished story?


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #28 on: May 30, 2007, 05:33:32 PM
"Not all paying markets are equal, and not all non-paying markets are equal."

That's why I tried to say prestige instead of pay.

I actually (and most writers I know do this) have a fairly complex heuristic for figuring out where to send, where I adjust for things like pay, prestige, circulation, how much I like the project, whether people I know have had good or bad experiences with the editor, and so on.

For instance, Escape Pod has excellent pay for a reprint market (most markets do not accept reprints), is well-respected among people who know about SF (as far as I can tell), has a lot of listeners, a project I approve of, and I've never spoken to anyone who is disgruntled with Steve, while there are many glowing reports.

With something like Electric Velocipede -- the pay is poor, few people read it, but those that do speak very highly of it and may be people I want to read my work because they share my aesthetic or are editors I want to publish with (it was one of the few zines that Gordon knew when he was teaching at CW05), John Klima has a good reputation as an editor, and I've never heard of anyone who has a bad experience with it.

It's possible I'd sub someplace that didn't pay if some of the other factors were high enough (high prestige, an excellent editor, a project I really respect). For instance, Doug Lain and M. K. Hobson are starting a progressive political magazine out of Portland, and as I support political fiction and Mary's a friend, I might donate them a story or poem if they weren't going to pay. (Although I wouldn't look at such a donation as being "career advancing," except insofar as it reinforces my relationship with the editors. It would be a favor and statement of support, not a career move.)

Prestige is the term that I'm using to encompass all these factors, plus a more generalized sort of reputation.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 05:36:11 PM by palimpsest »



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #29 on: May 30, 2007, 05:47:53 PM
Okay, then.  I went straight to the horses mouth in order to cold, hard facts.  Something I should have done the first time, I know, I know....

I contacted Steve Smith, who's currently running 365tomorrows, and he says it gets about 15,000 unique viewers and 300,000 page views each month.  Certainly less than I said earlier, but I contend it's still impressive. 

And it turns out I was wrong about ASIMOV'S, as well.  The 31,000 I quoted was 2005 numbers.  A recent essay by Warren Ellis says "ANALOG, FSF and ASIMOV'S are said to do between 15K and 20K."   I'm not sure where he gets his numbers, but I imagine he, like myself, has a friend on the inside he can ask.

So, no, 365tomorrows.com does not give you a better audience. But it does give you a comparable audience.  Also, Escape Pod is clearly the best place to submit to, as it gives you semi-pro rates, extensive audience and a Steve Eley intro.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 02:23:07 PM by JaredAxelrod »



Listener

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Reply #30 on: May 30, 2007, 06:54:45 PM
Writer points are the amount of good will that you have with an editor or slush reader going into a story. If an editor picks up a properly formatted manuscript, with nice, dark, easy to read writing, that's professional-looking -- bang. That's writer points.

As a former manager who had to do hiring, a simple litmus test for potential employees was to put in the posting "E-mails with attachments will not be read.  Please paste your resume into the body of the e-mail."  I still got hundreds with attachments, and I ignored them all.  I'm willing to bet I lost a few good candidates that way, but if you can't follow that simple instruction, then how can I trust you to follow the big ones?

Quote
If your cover letter is pithy and grammatical, writer points. If your first sentence has good grammar, and perhaps even something intriguing about it, writer points.

That's how I got my current job.  I wasn't as perfectly-qualified as I should have been -- my skills in VB and Flash were lacking -- but I was the exact type of generalist my current boss was looking for.  My cover letter started out with something like:

"Greetings.  I'm writing in response to the Web Project Producer position that you posted on Craigslist.com.

You can stop looking.

No, seriously.  You can."

And then I gave a two-short-paragraph summary of why I would be the right person for the job.

The trick is to be amusing without being arrogant.

As for writing... well... I have to finish something new before I can write a cover letter for it, and right now the well is a little dry for me.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #31 on: May 30, 2007, 07:40:36 PM
Not all paying markets are equal, and not all non-paying markets are equal.  The Gospel was for a website that was getting massive traffic and recognition.  This thread was started by someone starting a podcast from scratch.  Escape Pod pays something like $50, but so does Readers Digest if you're the first person to send in a funny quote from Leno. 

Actually, Escape Pod pays $100 now.  Pseudopod pays $50.


I was going back and forth on that and couldn't remember where it was now. That's why I had the hedging phrase "Something like".



scottjanssens

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Reply #32 on: May 31, 2007, 12:14:41 AM
Also, Escape Pod is clearly the best place to submit to, as it gives you pro rates, extensive audience and a Steve Eley intro.

Escape Pod, unfortunately, isn't in a position to pay pro rates... yet.  Pro rates, as defined by SFWA, is a minimum of 5 cents a word.  For a market to be considered a pro market, all stories published by that market must pay at a 5 cent rate.  Escape Pod pays $20 for stories up to 2000 words.  At 2000 words, that's 1 cent a word.  At our flat rate of $100, a 5000 word story will get you 2 cents a word.

Of course even at pro rates, if one is writing for the money, one is quite foolish.



scottjanssens

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Reply #33 on: May 31, 2007, 12:18:43 AM
Would it be the same thing, minus the "It has been previously published bit" for an unpublished story?

Yes.  I should point out that this is my advise for short stories.  Cover letters for agent or novel queries are a whole 'nother ballgame.



JaredAxelrod

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Reply #34 on: May 31, 2007, 02:22:48 PM
Also, Escape Pod is clearly the best place to submit to, as it gives you pro rates, extensive audience and a Steve Eley intro.

Escape Pod, unfortunately, isn't in a position to pay pro rates... yet.  Pro rates, as defined by SFWA, is a minimum of 5 cents a word.  For a market to be considered a pro market, all stories published by that market must pay at a 5 cent rate.  Escape Pod pays $20 for stories up to 2000 words.  At 2000 words, that's 1 cent a word.  At our flat rate of $100, a 5000 word story will get you 2 cents a word.

Of course even at pro rates, if one is writing for the money, one is quite foolish.

'Scuse me.  I meant to say "semi-pro."  I'll edit the earlier post.

You gotta admit, though: a Steve Eley intro is priceless.



goatkeeper

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Reply #35 on: June 01, 2007, 03:27:35 AM


I have more stories in me than I could write in a lifetime. I am wealthy with stories. 
I can afford to give them away.


Ah well, I have learned a lot from reading these responses about popular attitudes on publishing.

I can't help but see the parallel between my experience as a musician and writers offering work for free.  As a professional classical guitarist I remember graduating from Conservatory with the somewhat naive idea that I would play concerts and be paid for them and that was simply the way it worked.  I did play many concerts and was able to barely support myself but it was easy to see after awhile that the market for classical music just wasn't large enough to support all the amazing performers being trained to work in that markert.  It certainly was not easy to "make it" and "keep it" as a classical musician.  I'm pretty good at marketing myself and had won some competitions and received some recognition but Sony still wasn't beating down my door to record me.
After some time I realized what a waste it was to perform exclusivly with my only goal being to achieve notoriety, or at the very least, to sustain myself on a performing career.  The reason I learned music and worked so hard at making it was to share it with other people, and here I was catering exclusively to that one little niche that all the other musicians were competing for. 
Currerntly 50% of my performances are done in public schools, nursing homes, senior centers and hospitals, for free or for nominal costs.  Not only do paid gigs generally come from these experiences, but I feel like I am nurturing future  new audiences by exposing them to music they wouldn't have heard otherwise.

I have bought books from several authors online that I only knew about because they threw stuff on podiobooks and escapepod.  These authors have inspired me to write more, and that has brought me such happiness!  I donate to escapepod and support authors because I appreciate them reaching out and creating worlds, sparking my imagination. 



raygunray

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Reply #36 on: June 01, 2007, 01:35:31 PM
Quote
I did play many concerts and was able to barely support myself but it was easy to see after awhile that the market for classical music just wasn't large enough to support all the amazing performers being trained to work in that market.

I recall Vonnegut speech called "How to Have a Job Like Mine" which advised would be working writers on how to have a full-time writers career.  "You Can't." He began.  This was in the 90's where paying short fiction and essay markets had dried up and because people weren't  reading consumer literature like they used to. 

Nowadays most writers, musicians and artists realize they may never do what love full-time and will need a day job.  I knew an illustrator whose works appear on New Yorker who wait tables to "get at least 1200 calories a day and a place to live without cockroaches."  It can happen, but the days of "coldwater flats" are gone.  The cost of living is just too high.

I've changed my position on pro bono writing from reading all the posts here.  I meant no disrespect to writers and editors who work for free.  It is, above all, about the quality and reputation of the venue rather than pay scale. 

Also, I prefer the donation system better since readers don't have to lock themselves into a subscription and they can pay what they can afford.  Readers are allowed to come and go as they please.

Diabetic in Candyland -
Stories about Winning at Losing and Failing Successfully.


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #37 on: June 01, 2007, 03:21:22 PM
No one's supporting themselves on short stories. However, pay rate is still one of the signals of a market that has acquired high prestige and reputation.



Heradel

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Reply #38 on: June 01, 2007, 07:42:10 PM
Perhaps the difference is age? As a student you're starving, but that's to be expected. You're more actively learning, you're getting as much personal value from practice as you would if you were paid for it, which makes it easier to give out. If you're a professional, well, part of the definition is that you get paid for it, and though you're still learning, you're not writing to learn like a student.

For example, a friend of mine's an actor. He wants to do a serial comedy (well, webisodes) and post them to youtube/funnyordie. He's been able to rope in a fair number of people to volunteer time for it, including myself (throughly behind the camera, which is where I likes it). No one's expecting to do anything but have some fun, get it done, and practice.

If we were ten years older... well, the equation would be different.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


DKT

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Reply #39 on: June 01, 2007, 08:39:19 PM
Kind of a slight tangent: There's certainly something to be said for feedback.  Probably one of the most satisfying experiences I've ever had as a writer was reading an unpublished short story to two of my best friends (who were definitely a slice of the target audience).  They're reaction to the story right then, right there is something I don't think I'll ever be able to top with that story.  I haven't been paid anything for it yet (I'm still trying to sell it to) but their reaction is the best payment I think I've ever received. 

You can get feedback kind of like that with publishing online.  Although I think it does help if you have an outlet like Escape Pod, Pseudopod, or 365 Tomorrows that's already got a fanbase (which will hopefully help build your own fanbase) as opposed to a newer, untested market. 


goatkeeper

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Reply #40 on: June 02, 2007, 12:43:41 AM
As someone who is new to podcasting and has no intention of ever being a "professional" writer, I'm not trying to make any particular point as much as I am trying to understand other peoples points here.

While I agree that all artists should be paid for the work they do, I wonder if the attitude of "expecting to be paid for all my work" might also be dangerous in some regards.  Offering some good, free work to the public- not for the sake of getting your name out there or even to reap in feedback, but simply to turn people on to science fiction and other genres- seems to be worthwhile.  This seems to be part of what the spirit of escapepod is about.

So, if this is true, will it always be the job of Steve Eley's around the world to be entrepreneurial and start projects that do the work of attracting fans and relying on their donations to support authors.  It works for escapepod (praise be to cthulhu) and who knows how many fans of science fiction escapepod has created by offering work for free.  But will this model always be successful?  I don't understand why a writer would resist offering occasional work to the public simply as an act of outreach.

Perhaps the difference is age? As a student you're starving, but that's to be expected. You're more actively learning, you're getting as much personal value from practice as you would if you were paid for it, which makes it easier to give out. If you're a professional, well, part of the definition is that you get paid for it, and though you're still learning, you're not writing to learn like a student.



If we were ten years older... well, the equation would be different.



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #41 on: June 02, 2007, 02:50:36 AM
Offering work to the public is a different part of the equation, neh? Escape Pod is free to listeners. Strange Horizons is free to the audience. Both markets pay their authors.



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #42 on: June 02, 2007, 03:04:24 AM
"As someone who is new to podcasting and has no intention of ever being a "professional" writer, I'm not trying to make any particular point as much as I am trying to understand other peoples points here."

I have to say -- I find this disingenous. You're specifically asking people to give you their work for free; therefore, you have a dog in the fight. You are expecting people to donate their labor to you.

You asked why people aren't subbing to you. I said "I expect to be paid for my work" as a shorthand. In many of the message boards I frequent, there are common calls such as this for people to submit work to markets that pay in "exposure." Such offers overflow. I could send my work to them all day, and get paid for nothing I do.

I'm a professional, full-time writer. I have to make judgment calls about where to send my work, and why. I submit to markets that pay well because generally they have larger audiences, more dedicated audiences, established reputations, and editors I can rely on to be professional and to select good stories. I submit to other markets that appeal to me for various reasons which I have enumerated here.

I'm not going to sub to you simply because you're around and asking. There are lots of markets. You have to make yourself appealing.

So, you post a request for subs. I, as a writer, consider that request.

Step one: Do you pay? No. Okay, I'm going to write you off. That's my first stage of screening, because it's easy, and because it tends to be a shorthand for prestige. Pay and prestige tend to be correlated, though not identical. So, right off, I'm not going to sub to you. I might later, if you came to my attention for some reason, and I reevaluated the situation.

Step two: Have I heard of you before? Do I know you? Do people I trust know you? Is there buzz about you? Are you supporting some kind of fiction that I can't place elsewhere for some reason? If these answers are yes, then maybe I'd go to step three.

Step three: Is your website beautiful? Are your submission guidelines crisp and professional? If I listen to your podcast, are your stories going to be awesome? Will they have fantastic production values? Are you publishing people I've heard of? Seriously -- are the stories great? When I hear from my friend Y that she sent you a story, is she going to tell me, "The whole experience was fantastic! He sent me his notes, we exchanged emails, he's really perceptive. And I love the person they had reading it!"

There are lots of markets; you're going to have to court writers by being wonderful in some way. Being a new market (so many of them fold), being a venue I've never heard of (and thus have no reason to trust), and not paying is three strikes against you.

I'm sure there are points in your favor. I haven't gone over and looked at your site, because I knew from the posts you'd made here that I wasn't going to sub to you at this time. Still, I'm sure you have great qualities. Do you take reprints? Writers of my acquaintance, myself included, are more likely to place reprints in markets that don't pay, since we've already been renumerated.

If you don't already, I'd suggest that you specifically solicit people whose work you want to feature. It makes people feel nice, and that way you get work that you love, and hopefully that your audience will love too. Sometimes, the whims of the slush pile are sad and grey, and you cannot find beautiful things just by waiting for them to come in over the transom.

Beyond that, if your podcast is kickass, people will buzz. Buzzing will attract writers. Writers will sub to you. Maybe you'll be so awesome and have so many listeners that even curmudgeonly me would sub to you, despite the lack of pay.

But the point is that you're unlikely to get scads of high quality slush just by asking. Just as writers have to give you material that's good enough to publish, you have to give us a reason to trust you with our work.

--

Heradel: By the by, I'm 25. I donated work to lit mags in college, but I didn't sub stories to non-paying external markets. ;-)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 03:32:19 AM by palimpsest »



goatkeeper

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Reply #43 on: June 02, 2007, 12:47:20 PM
Palimpsest, your response more or less answered what my first post in this topic asked (and your one of the only ones, so thanks!)

However, this thread strayed into a different direction about philosophies on pro bono writing, and that's what my last post was regarding.

Regarding my own podcast, I think you have the wrong impression of it.  I think all the points you bring up are valid for many podcasts- Drabblecast is a bit difference.  It's an avenue for the everyday writer to get ideas and stories out.  It's all flashfiction, the longest story is 10-15 minutes) and simply a way to encourage people to write- anyone.  We have had some from this forum send in good stories and a few "professional" writers, as well as lawyers, bass fisherman and school teachers.  The idea is that there are a lot of people out there who have neat ideas and can write a great flash fiction story about them, that don't care about all the things you mentioned.  As for the stories- the Drabblecast has a steady listener base and active forum of 80-100 people since it began in late Feb.  I don't consider that too bad- I'm happy to give a bit of my time to get some of the great stories I get sent out to anyone who is willing to hear them.  There isn't a prob with people subbing or listening to my podcast- I just wanted to understand some writers feelings on pro bono writing.



Heradel

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Reply #44 on: June 02, 2007, 03:43:11 PM
Heradel: By the by, I'm 25. I donated work to lit mags in college, but I didn't sub stories to non-paying external markets. ;-)

Twas not my intent to bestow any accusations of great age upon any person, and by age I meant more a before-deep-down-realizing-they-need-to-make-their-own-money-to-live momentary sort of age. And I'm sure that there are people that really never need to work that never feel that. It also has to do with a person's temperament, their friends, their friends' ability to pressure said person into things. I'm ok with not getting paid for some of my work, if I liked doing the work and would have been compelled to do it anyway. I'd much prefer getting paid, but I'm not focusing on it, yet.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


goatkeeper

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Reply #45 on: June 03, 2007, 12:07:32 AM


I have to say -- I find this disingenous. You're specifically asking people to give you their work for free; therefore, you have a dog in the fight. You are expecting people to donate their labor to you.



Thanks for your reply by the way. Although I think you could have written a flash fiction story to sub for the amount of time you spent writing an explantion of why you wouldn't sub. :-)



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #46 on: June 03, 2007, 04:41:28 AM
Presumably there are numerous more productive things that either of us could do than hanging out on this message board at all.



goatkeeper

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Reply #47 on: June 03, 2007, 11:53:10 AM
well put sir



Russell Nash

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Reply #48 on: June 03, 2007, 12:01:49 PM
well put sir

Make that more gender neutral or you're in for a tirade. (he's a she)



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #49 on: June 04, 2007, 03:17:25 PM
Eh, "Well put, sir" strikes me as close enough to a figure of speech.