Author Topic: Christianity in Fiction  (Read 16028 times)

DKT

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on: May 09, 2007, 08:13:17 PM
Look at me, trying to be proactive.  I really should be writing :)

I got off on a little tangent in the latest Resnick episode thread because of some comments about Christianity being stereotyped in fiction (specifically SF/F). 

Here's Thaurismunths's post that inspired it (Thaurismunths -- one day I'll be able to spell that from memory!):

Quote
This probably doesn't apply to EP listeners, because I think we're all a little too hip to fall for it, but it's out there. I admit it's pretty sneaky, but anti-religious sentiment is common and becoming more so, but I wasn't aware of it until recently.
It doesn't take the form of "God Loving = Bad Person" as it does in SF, or anything that obvious. It likes to come dressed up like "equal rights for all religions," which usually means "equal rights for my religion." In misguided attempts to accept all religions it's becoming more and more important that you disavow all religions. Especially anything Christ-based.
For example, and from my perspective: I don't know if it's because of Christianity's popularity (making them a big target), their evangelical streak, political correctness has gone too far, or there's a grudge over that wacky Crusade thing 800 hundred years ago, but often just standing up and saying "Because I'm Christian, I think this is good/bad." is about enough to get oneself burned in effigy. Saying a prayer before dinner can get you branded as Very Christian. And don't even think of mentioning god, the bible, or church. On the other hand, a Muslim stopping to pray 5 times a day, participating in Ramadan, and making the Hajj is cool. A Jew keeping Kosher, celebrating Chanukah, and wearing a kippah makes them 'devote.'

Here are some of *my* original thoughts:

Quote
I agree with Thaurismunths 100%.  There is a huge irony in embracing other religions but *not* Christianity.  That's probably partly do to Christianity being the majority religion in the US for so long.  Some of it -- like prayer at dinner -- is just looked at as weird, I suppose, and that's about it. But a lot of it is a backlash against Christians (and I do lump myself into that camp, although I don't consider myself conservative) because of angry/hateful things that are said in politics.  To be honest, that's the one thing that bums me out about my religion -- that when people are asked what they think of Christians,the good stuff like grace and love don't come to mind.  Instead, they remember the chants and picket signs and some of the really awful things Christians have said. 

I realize I'm completely off topic at this point (apologies to Steve and Mr. Resnick) but these comments really got me thinking and made me want to discuss this a bit more.

and

Quote
I don't believe that Christians scream mean-spirited things in general but I've heard an unbelievable amount from the pulpit that is exactly that.  I live in an LA suburb, and I've attended 3 churches seriously in the last 6 years and have been frustrated with all of them because of things I've heard coming out of the pulpit or the congregation (we're currently looking for another church).  I heard one pastor literally say that AIDS was God's way of punishing homosexuals only a few years ago.  Like I said before, I'm not a conservative, although I was brought up that way.  But being a liberal in an evangelical church makes me feel like a leper sometimes.  Three years ago when people found out I didn't vote for Bush and didn't support the war in Iraq, I half expected someone to come up and tell me to move to France  

And as far as tolerance goes, I took apologetic-type classes at my private junior-high that made fun of other people's relgions.  As if believing a virgin gave birth to the messiah is a completely logical thing to accept  

So I don't think I agree that more tolerance creates a different religion.  The idea of tolerance is so that people will be educated and understand the different kinds of religion and have respect for them.  I can be a Christian and respect people who have different faiths than I do without accepting what they believe as my own faith.  The important thing about tolerance is listening to what others believe and realizing, whether we believe it or not, that there's some value to it (and we don't need to go crazy invading anyone's holy land).

I'd love to see Christianity portrayed as more than just a stereotype.  But at the same time, I love seeing it poked and prodded, too.  I'm actually a big fan of "Burning Bush" and I enjoyed "the Capo of Darkness," too (see me trying to stay on topic?).  I don't even know that I'd consider those stories blasphemous, even though I think Steve Ely might.  In the end, if I can't laugh at myself, then I'm taking myself way too seriously and I'm really screwed.  

This discussion is really interesting to me.  When I was younger, I read some of the "Christian" SF/F that's out there and I hated it.  It was too preachy and, to be honest, poorly written.  Now, I write SF/F and horror.  Often (but not always) the themes of Christianity or characters who practice this particular faith appear in my stories.  Sometimes it's portrayed positively and sometimes it's not (and other times I'm pleasantly pleased and surprised by the way it's taken).  That's just what interests me, I guess, so I like to write about both the good and the bad.  Sometimes in a story, my frustration with my faith/religion might be more apparent.  Other times (hopefully) the wonder of it is.

So how do you feel about the way Christianity in stories?  (Or any religion in general, I suppose, I'm only saying Christianity because that's the only faith I feel like I have any firm grasp on.)  What bugs you about it when you see it now?  Does it feel too preachy?  Too stereotypical?  Not scientific enough? 

Hopefully I haven't scared anybody off.  I'm just very curious about what everyone else thinks, regardless of what your faith is. 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 09:00:00 PM by DKT »



slic

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Reply #1 on: May 09, 2007, 08:41:22 PM
I do agree with the comments about the anti-religios slant within sci-fi, though I would admend it to say I've never seen a hero in sci-fi that is very religious.  Lots of the sci-fi baddies are non-religious, as well, though.

I will add my voice to the idea that where you live in the States affects the prevalence of  "Western culture's anti-Christian leaning".  Having recently returned to Canada after living in the Indianapolis for nearly 4 years.  Many people who I thought should have minded their own business were happy to mutter under their breath that I was essentially going to Hell. 

I think the issue is that Christianity is so prevelant in North America - only it's holidays are considered statutory holidays, you have Easter and Christmas decorations in stores, on streets - songs on the radio etc..  I think the other part is that NA christians are alot more open in the faith - the only way I know you are kosher is if pay attention to what you eat.  Muslims don't pray at there desk - they find a quiet, out of the way room.  I've been in restaurants where the whole family with clasp hands, bow their heads and speak a prayer - personally, I'm unoffended by it, but my point is that it is very obvious, and how many other religions do that (in NA)?

Look at the backlash against headscarves. Here is a very obvious form of religious belief and it is banned in public schools in France.

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I don't think that defining marriage as male-female has anything to do with either intollerance or blind belief.  There's a lot more to the argument than that and homophobia need not enter into it.
How is denying same sex marriage about anything but homophobia? I would really like to know your arguements.



slic

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Reply #2 on: May 09, 2007, 08:44:59 PM
Hey DKT - could you indicate the original author's of the above quotes - either by wirting just above or by editing the [*quote*] code to include author=whoever - no spaces is important. E.g [*quote author=me]I didn't say that[*/quote]
Quote from: me
I didn't say that



DKT

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Reply #3 on: May 09, 2007, 09:01:22 PM
Sorry, I tried to make that clear.  The first quote is from Thaurismunths and the other two are completely mine.


DKT

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Reply #4 on: May 09, 2007, 09:15:39 PM
I'm trying to think of heroes who are religious in SF.  I guess I can't think of any who are explicitly Christian, although I think there's plenty who are messianic.  And then there's your Luke Skywalker's, too.  But Christian heroes...not so much.  Horror is another story, I suppose.


Mfitz

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Reply #5 on: May 09, 2007, 09:16:24 PM
Well, although I would never consider myself a "Christian" writer, I'm an Irish-American Catholic and that colors my world view, and my writing.  I've written Irish-American Catholic characters in some of my stuff, but their religion isn't the turning point of the piece, it's just part of the texture of the piece.

I'm not saying that I want to see Christian SF any more than I would want to see Jewish SF or Islamic SF.  I just think the almost complete lack of even the mention of religion in most SF, unless fighting stupid religious people is part of the plot line, is something I see as a weakness in the field.



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Reply #6 on: May 09, 2007, 09:33:11 PM
Just throwing a very random thought out so please don´t flame me.

With a genre of SCIENCE fiction, just how much religon do you think there should be?

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Reply #7 on: May 09, 2007, 09:52:44 PM
You certainly won't get a flame from me.  :)  Honestly, I don't see why there can't be religion in any kind of fiction, including SF.  I don't think science and God are in conflict (this is just my own personal belief).  A large part of Christianity is in conflict with parts of science...but still.  Any story worth its salt has conflict in it. 

I feel like I should clarify: I don't think any of my stories would necessarily sell to a "Christian" market and I'm certainly not trying to write religious SF per se.  It's just that a decent amount of the things I have written just hit on my own experiences and beliefs and struggles.  In the end, I'm trying to write a good story, not evangelize or preach.  To me, it's all about the characters, the texture, and the overall tale itself.  I'm writing what I want to read.  I don't know if that makes sense or not.

And I really do like what mfitz said about texture and worldviews coloring the story.


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Reply #8 on: May 09, 2007, 10:10:58 PM
Anybody read the "Space Trilogy" by C.S. Lewis?  Great sci-fi (Arthur C. Clarke even said so) and explicitly Christian.

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Reply #9 on: May 09, 2007, 10:23:29 PM
Ok,  How are you guys missing this one, I thought everyone had read this guy:

Orson, Scott, Card.

I'll say it again.

Orson, Scott, Card.

While he has somewhat gone of the rails over recent years, his early work was extremely, extremely religious (although he tried to walk the line, and I understand you Christians may view his Mormonism as a bit heretical).  Lets give some examples here:

The Worthing Saga - An extremely interesting justification for the existence of pain in a religious world.
Speaker For The Dead - A story about a directly religious leader and his justification for the divinity of aliens.
The Homecoming Saga - A clear re-telling of the story of Joseph Smith in a SF setting.

He's pretty much defined the religious slant in SF for the past 30 years..  Its a pity I disagree with everything the guy says nowadays.

To continue the tone:

I don't, honestly, think there is much place for the directly religious in SF, but I think there is a very very strong place for the humane.  I can think of many, many works of SF that have been tailored by the author's religious position (Arthur C Clarke's classic wet spiritualist work - Childhood's End, Robert Zelazney's Lord Of Light, or most blatantly, Walter Miller's A Canticle For Leibowitz..  The heroes are all monks, how much more christian do you want?), but few that have any evangelism in them with any success...

Unless the religion forms only the morality or backdrop, I think you will alienate readers who expect SF to use the logic game structure.



wherethewild

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Reply #10 on: May 09, 2007, 10:35:51 PM
Maybe the lack of religon (Christian, Islamic, Martian) in scifi (sf, whatever), or it´s primarily negative portrayal, has to do with the conception that a dogmatic culture can´t make huge steps forward in science. Had Newton, Darwin, Copernicus etc etc not been hindered by religous dogma maybe we would be further in science than we are. I get the feeling that most scifi writers subscribe to that idea.

My husband just pointed out that medieval Spain, under Islam, was a great center of learning and science. We´re not sure just how fundamentalist the religon was at the time (Mohammed´s wife was a scientist and a leader, wasn´t she?), so that may or may not negate the above point.

Simon posted while I was writing this. I had forgotten OSC. The highly Mormon-inspired storylines I have no time for (because I do find it preachy) but your point about reading scifi and expecting it to follow logic and not belief is extremely true.

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DKT

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Reply #11 on: May 09, 2007, 10:50:56 PM
Crap, I'm not sure how I missed Orson Scott Card.  I loved Speaker for the Dead and the Worthing Saga.  

And I haven't read Childhood's End or A Canticle for Leibowitz yet, so thanks for the suggestions.  

Again, I'm not advocating evangelism -- Lord of Light rocked my world but I didn't come away thinking I needed to become Buddhist.  It was an amazing story.  

wherethewild, I think that's an interesting theory and it could be that a lot of SF writers subscribe to it.  I'm just not one of them :)  I think it *can* be done, it just usually isn't for whatever reason.


slic

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Reply #12 on: May 09, 2007, 11:21:11 PM
Simon - to clarify, I meant clearly Earth religions (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc).  Speaker of the Dead was about a new religion being spread by Ender, and Worthing Saga could almost be argued as blasphemous - the people on the "primitive" planet worship their "Watchers" not God. 

The closet I can think of is his future apocolypse stories where the Mormons survive, well written, but up there with the Left Behind series for me.



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Reply #13 on: May 09, 2007, 11:45:36 PM
How about The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell? In it Jesuits back an interplanetary mission after the world receives radio signals from another planet. The main character is a Jesuit priest. IIRC, the author was a Catholic who turned to Judism. Oh, and the story is really interesting. That's high praise coming from an atheist.


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Reply #14 on: May 10, 2007, 07:00:33 AM
The main problem with OSC's work of late is that it's bad, at least compared to the early stuff. I posted a review of Empire a bit back around here somewhere, so you can find that.

I've not be hiding the fact I'm a (if not very strictly) Catholic-raised Atheist. I don't mind religion in a piece, so long as it's good and not, well, not trying to convert me blatantly. Especially because so often that conversion speech/story seems to think that the non-believers haven't heard of Christ. Or what he did. Or what he said.

I like what Christ had to say. Certainly more than the Old Testament. I agree with a lot of what he had to say. I think his philosophy is a good one, even if it gets twisted a fair bit in this day and age. Christ's teachings do not have any impact on my Atheism.

Yes, Christians get hit more when they put it into their work. But how much of the population is a Christian denomination? Versus Jews, Atheists, Muslims? And to be fair, I've seen all those groups get pretty hard by some pretty non-catholic Christians who think that just because something's not a majority opinion (or at least what they think to be the majority's opinion) that it loses some of it's right to exist.

And as the majority religion, it would be improper for it not to be speared. It's what everyone knows. It's easy. Take Little Mosque on the Prairie (it's a CBC show, so I'm not sure how many of you will have seen it) — half the show is them having to explain what Islam is in it's extreme and liberal interpretations, and then make jokes about it. It's a good show, but it's also somewhat of a comedic documentary about modern Islam out of the Middle East.

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Mfitz

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Reply #15 on: May 10, 2007, 02:21:53 PM
How about The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell? In it Jesuits back an interplanetary mission after the world receives radio signals from another planet. The main character is a Jesuit priest. IIRC, the author was a Catholic who turned to Judism. Oh, and the story is really interesting. That's high praise coming from an atheist.

I was going to mention Sparrow.  It has religious characters. Their religious belief influences the action in the story.  It's great SF, and one of the most true to my experience representations of modern American Catholics I've seen in any genre.  But it's not a religious book, or a book trying to push any one religion. It does have a lot to say about faith, but it's faith in a big picture way not faith in any one belief system. Someone brought up Canticle for Lebowitz, and it's another good example, and so are the data mining monks on B5.

Fools War by Sarah Zettle has an Islamic female starship captain as it's main character.  It's much more traditional space opera than Sparrow, but the main character's religion influences how she sees the world and the solutions she looks for to the conflict in the book.  Again it's not a religious book in any way but a story that has characters who follow a belief system.

Sparrow sets the bar high on many levels and I wouldn't want all SF to tell that sort of intense internal story, but I don't see why there couldn't be more books that have characters who belong to a particular religion and have their beliefs be part of their motivation and not have them be the gun toting Yahoos shooting up Museum displays like in Robert Sawyer's Calculating God.

Just an aside I do think there is a strong tradition in SF to have stories that deal with the creation of religions for any number of reasons.  You see in in Card's work, and in all the Dunes, and even to an extent in works like Stranger in a Strange Land.  What I was originally talking about was the small number of SF stories where traditional established religions are mentioned in a positive way if they are mentioned at all.



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Reply #16 on: May 29, 2007, 11:16:51 AM
How much of a book should be about Christianity?

In your normal life how many of your daily actions are overtly obvious to all veiwers as "Christian" as opposed to "non-Christian"? 

Let me explain that question a bit.  If our book was being written each day (kind of like in Death's library), would it say, "because of his faith he didn't take sugar in his coffee"?  "As a good Christian he didn't abuse his wife, molest his children, or kick the dog."  "The non-believer scratched our hero's car door and didn't leave a note."

We do things everyday, that are influenced by whatever it is we believe, even if that belief is just "Be Nice".  My book would say that I always smile at the cashier and ask how they are.  Is this book slamming my belief if it doesn't say, "Because of BeNiceism, he smiled at the cashier"?  Also if one of us says grace, is that really important enough to be mentioned everytime or would that just be filler?

Also, religion changes as history progresses.  If you don't believe me, have a sit down with your grandmother about it.  How does a writer handle thousands of years of changing belief if that isn't the main topic of the story?  Twenty or thirty years from now people will laugh at the religious traditions in his book the way many laugh at the "advanced" technology of ST:TOS.



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Reply #17 on: May 29, 2007, 01:27:37 PM
I've followed this discussion for a while now, and wanted to reflect on a character I recently authored for a story that will more than likely never see the light of day, because I wrote it for a very specific anthology and it wasn't accepted. I never thought I'd write a sympathetic character who was specifically Christian, moreso specifically protestant. However, when I set the story Lady of Mercy aboard a slave ship in the early 1800's I ended up doing just that. The character of Reverent Tipton provides an example of how european colonialism and the zeal of european missionaries negatively impacted Africa during the slave trade years and later during the "grab for Africa" as colonial powers stripped the natural resources from the continent. The main character, Mister Fredricksen, doesn't like Reverend Tipton and suggests his ministering to the slave cargo aboard Lady of Mercy is akin to abandoning his european/civilized heritage.

Here is the introduction of Reverend Tipton -

I dropped into the main hold where a hundreds of wide eyes blinked at me from the stultifying moist heat and overpowering smell of feces. Not a single negro spoke as I threaded through their cramped ranks, tugged at ankle chains and poked at thick cast iron locks. Reverend Tipton, a missionary on his way from deep in Bantu country to Haiti, knelt at the far end of the hold. He'd draped a white handkerchief over the bare breasts of a silent negro woman and balanced an open bible on his squat knees.
   
"You're wasting your time Reverend." I shuffled past him, past the rows of pink bottomed black feet interlocked in the narrow passage. "Those Bantu don't speak English."
   
"The word of God transcends language. Tell me, isn't there something you can do about the heat and smell, a hatch to open or something? This is unbearable for even the strongest men."
   
I shrugged. The heat and stink was the same on every slaver. Reverend Tipton should have waited for a proper passenger ship if he was concerned, but as is the case with virtually all of Europe's Christian Soldiers, they can't get off the continent fast enough. If Malaria doesn't grind them down, if the constant tribal warring doesn't get them killed, if the culture of uncivilized beasts doesn't sap their faith, then the relentless oppression of the colonials shatters their humanity, then they flee.
   
His booming voice echoed back towards the forecastle. "It's inhuman. It's un-Christian!"
   
"Then go above decks like a civilized man."
   
Sweat soaked through his white linen suit and showed his pink flesh beneath the cloth. "I am pleased to suffer with the cargo." His voice dripped with derision.
   
"I'm sure Captain Machado will be pleased to hear that." I shoved back into the corridor and threaded back through the dank towards the steps to the main deck.


Later, when a mysterious illness begins killing cargo aboard Lady of Mercy, it is only Reverend Tipton that inisists upon staying with the sick and dying. Fredricksen begins to understand Tipton more as the sickness gets worse.

Tipton offered to perform any more services as needed and took to asking each healthy negro to accept Jesus before they too were stricken. But the Bantu mostly ignored his increasingly anxious ranting, and we could see how Africa would strip a man, missionary, or otherwise, of his senses. Tipton seemed no longer to be on safe passage away from the continent, but still embroiled in the soul saving he'd abandoned only two weeks ago when his mission was sacked and burned.

Sanders, one of the regular crew, is bitten and infected by a zombie. As he lay dying, Tipton ministers to him as the wound festers and the infection spreads.

Tipton and fed him crumbs of hardtack, water and soothing passages from The Bible.
   
I realized now that the Reverend was in his element. He was as much a minister of the Lord's word, as a minister of goodwill and comfort. Conversions be damned, it was sick and the dying that stirred the evangelism in his soul. And in this I found great respect for him.
   
One day I should ask why he would abandon a continent so rife with need for such sympathetic men, more so, how me managed to keep his wits on a vessel crewed with the very agents of destruction to all of Africa?


Fredricksen's understanding of Tipton's personality and conviction is important as it illustrates the compassion and humanity that the main character lacks, and through that realization, Fredricksen begins to see his job aboard the slaver, and the position of the European colonials, in a much more negative light. This is his turning point in the story.

The point of this post, and these excerpts is that I never intended to write Tipton in what could be described as a "stereotypical" manner, but I ended up doing so for the very reason that his character has a spiritual grounding in contrast to all of the other characters aboard Lady of Mercy. Could I have made him an atheist member of the regular crew? Sure. Would that have made the story any better? Probably not. I chose the archetype for Tipton because I wanted that mirror for the main character. But that was the only agenda I had for the character.

I am releasing these excerpts on purpose. Lady of Mercy will more than likely be broken down and rewritten into something more contemporary as the market for historical zombie fiction is so small as to be atomic and this tale didn't make the cut.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 05:00:14 PM by jrderego »

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DKT

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Reply #18 on: May 29, 2007, 05:37:52 PM
Thanks for posting that.  The excerpts were a good read :)  What anthology were you sending it too?  There's an anthology coming out in the not too distant future (recently closed for submissions) that might be interested in this if they do a second volumue.  I can PM it to you or post it here, if you want.


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Reply #19 on: May 29, 2007, 05:41:54 PM
Thanks for posting that.  The excerpts were a good read :)  What anthology were you sending it too?  There's an anthology coming out in the not too distant future (recently closed for submissions) that might be interested in this if they do a second volumue.  I can PM it to you or post it here, if you want.

I sent it to, and was rejected by, History is Dead edited by Kim Paffenroth. I just sent it off to "Dead Will Dance" and see if they take it.

Not much out there for zombie-themed stories. Both of the ones I've written have, pun intended, been shot in the head.

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Reply #20 on: May 30, 2007, 02:25:25 AM
I'm currently reading and enjoying Hugo nominated Eifelheim by Michael Flynn.  So far more than half the book is set in the middle ages, and the main character is a monk.  He is the scientific, thinking type of monk.  I'm finding his spiritual struggles and his religious debates with other characters over the Strange Thing in the Woods fascinating.

Christianity was such a pervasive force back then that I'm not sure you could write a historical story set in the middle ages or the period of European colonialism without it. 



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Reply #21 on: May 30, 2007, 04:16:40 AM
Also check out Calculating God by Robert Sawyer.

The two main characters are a typical atheist scientist from Earth and an alien true believer scientist comparing notes on shared mass extinction events across their worlds and others.  Great stuff.



Mfitz

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Reply #22 on: May 30, 2007, 04:57:18 PM
Also check out Calculating God by Robert Sawyer.

The two main characters are a typical atheist scientist from Earth and an alien true believer scientist comparing notes on shared mass extinction events across their worlds and others.  Great stuff.

And some of the most intelligent discussion of Intelligent design you will ever come across.

Although at per typical with Sawyer the bad guys are yahoo Americans.



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Reply #23 on: May 30, 2007, 05:00:04 PM
I'm currently reading and enjoying Hugo nominated Eifelheim by Michael Flynn.  So far more than half the book is set in the middle ages, and the main character is a monk.  He is the scientific, thinking type of monk.  I'm finding his spiritual struggles and his religious debates with other characters over the Strange Thing in the Woods fascinating.

Christianity was such a pervasive force back then that I'm not sure you could write a historical story set in the middle ages or the period of European colonialism without it. 


I just started Eifelheim but I have been thinking the pastor is just the sort of character I was talking about in one of my earlier posts.  He's someone comfortable with both God and science, infact he might even be insulted if someone told him science was anti-religion.



wakela

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Reply #24 on: May 31, 2007, 08:08:11 AM
Quote
I just started Eifelheim but I have been thinking the pastor is just the sort of character I was talking about in one of my earlier posts.  He's someone comfortable with both God and science, infact he might even be insulted if someone told him science was anti-religion.
You're in for a treat, IMHO. 

I think the statement wouldn't make any sense to him.  For him science is a means by which to know God better.   At that time God was the explanation for why things worked.  I read somewhere that people of the middle ages believed that dew on the grass in the morning was a miracle that happened nearly every day, a pretty little gift from God.  Since it hadn't rained the night before, the dew could not have come from anyplace else.  These days even the very religious use science to explain most things.  God is used more for moral guidance.