Author Topic: Tolerant / Intolerant  (Read 100773 times)

Anarkey

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Reply #150 on: May 17, 2007, 09:14:18 PM
Yet you used swear words to describe my religious belief.  You were nasty to me.  "Thems the dice".  On top of that you just suggested that my opinion of my own feelings dont count.  I consider that a "Nasty" hurtful statement.  Seriously I'm not sitting here crying over it, but I feel the "nasty" bit applies.

Ahem.

Any "I feel" or "I consider" statement != objective.  Earlier, you said her statement was objectively nasty.  You can't defend the objectiveness of the presumed nastiness with the paragraph above.  You'll need to either accede to the fact that it's not objectively nasty, only nasty in your perception, or frame a better argument.

She used a (single) swearword to describe her assesment of religious belief.  'Fraid it wasn't just yours, it was any and all of them (unless there are religions that don't work on revealed truths?  IANAnAnthropologist).

I'm sorry you feel hurt, but from my perspective, you took a general statement and made it personal in order to cry injury.  It's not like you're anywhere near the only religious person on the thread.

I believe, for instance, that Christians are admonished in Leviticus never to wear mixed fabrics. No one follows this prohibition any longer. It has both lost relevance, and also been interpreted to no longer be important.

The referring scripture is Leviticus 19:19 (it's always Leviticus, isn't it?)  Linked to KJV for the full ominous effect, yo.  Also has some interesting things to say about hybrid crops and...maybe GMOs depending on how you stretch "mingled" seed.

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DKT

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Reply #151 on: May 17, 2007, 09:17:24 PM
The shellfish restriction is from Leviticus also:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev.%2011:9-12&version=9;


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #152 on: May 17, 2007, 09:20:26 PM
Leviticus is also the basis for the it is an abomination for man to lie with man as he would with woman thingy. So no Christian who uses that statement to justify bigotry against homosexuals, and yet who also wears polyester or eats pork or shellfish, can avoid the label 'hipocryte.'



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #153 on: May 17, 2007, 09:22:42 PM
Oh, however -- an example of changes in how biblical verses are used:

Southern preachers used to pass out biblical verses that supported master/slave relationships to slaves, specifically to use religion to endorse the goodness of slavery. Anyone who used the verses in that way now would be (near) universally condemned. The moral meaning of biblical verses, and their implications for the world, has changed drastically over the centuries.



FNH

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Reply #154 on: May 17, 2007, 09:23:55 PM
Any "I feel" or "I consider" statement != objective.  Earlier, you said her statement was objectively nasty.  You can't defend the objectiveness of the presumed nastiness with the paragraph above.  You'll need to either accede to the fact that it's not objectively nasty, only nasty in your perception, or frame a better argument.

I was presumptious enough to assume that anyone of faith would be offended by a statement that calls the core of thier being "bovine excrement".

She used a (single) swearword to describe her assesment of religious belief.  'Fraid it wasn't just yours, it was any and all of them

Thanks for backing me up on that.

I believe, for instance, that Christians are admonished in Leviticus never to wear mixed fabrics. No one follows this prohibition any longer. It has both lost relevance, and also been interpreted to no longer be important.

Leviticus 19:19 (it's always Leviticus, isn't it?)  Linked to KJV for the full ominous effect, yo.  Also has some interesting things to say about hybrid crops and...maybe GMOs depending on how you stretch "mingled" seed.

Yes, yes it is.  That book is very "clear".


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #155 on: May 17, 2007, 09:28:20 PM
I said revealed truths are bullshit, within a particular context: that is, they can not be logically proven. If we're presuming that argument is going to be something that rests on the trade of facts and persuasion, then revealed truth is a 'get out of argument free' card, because it automatically wins. I can call it bullshit, I can reason against it, I can stand on my head and recite the entire encyclopedia backwards and in Latin -- none of it will ever be useful in an argument against a revealed truth, because one of the facets of revealed truth is that one is supposed to believe it over one's own lying eyes.

It seems to me that you're working hard to remove that context from the statement.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #156 on: May 17, 2007, 09:34:39 PM
If God really did reveal something, then the revelation would have to be in line with objective reality.  If God is God, then sees everything and would know better than to screw up His facts.  Therefore, if a given word does not match up with reality, then that word cannot be from God.  Therefore, observation and revelation should always match up.  If not, someone isn't being honest.

(Are we setting a record for the longest thread here?  How about the most eclectic?)

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #157 on: May 17, 2007, 09:36:08 PM
But plenty of biblical words don't match up with reality, and then the fun starts.



FNH

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Reply #158 on: May 17, 2007, 09:40:47 PM
I said revealed truths are bullshit, within a particular context: that is, they can not be logically proven. If we're presuming that argument is going to be something that rests on the trade of facts and persuasion, then revealed truth is a 'get out of argument free' card, because it automatically wins. I can call it bullshit, I can reason against it, I can stand on my head and recite the entire encyclopedia backwards and in Latin -- none of it will ever be useful in an argument against a revealed truth, because one of the facets of revealed truth is that one is supposed to believe it over one's own lying eyes.

It seems to me that you're working hard to remove that context from the statement.

Your saying quite clearly that because Revealed Truths can not be proven by logic they are Bovine Excrement.  Indeed you are fully within your rights to stand on your head recite encyclopedias and learn Latin.  You are absolutely right that Revealed truth is a "get out of argument free" card, because it does not rest on the basis of Logic.

The problem of logic is that its as faulty as human minds.  For instance. The sun comes out, it melts the snow.  Look up, the mountain top is above the clouds where it's always sunny.  Its covered in snow, therefore the sun cant be hot.  Obviously this is a silly example with obvious facts left out of the logical equation.  The point is that Logic reaches the wrong answer if you dont have all of the facts.  You cant have all of the facts because your not omnipotent therefore your logic will be fallible.

Which now I reread this post, is amusing because I just proved human logic is fallible with logic.  I've been a programmer too long.


FNH

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Reply #159 on: May 17, 2007, 09:42:32 PM
(Are we setting a record for the longest thread here?  How about the most eclectic?)

If we can string this out to page 9, I think we'll have the record.


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #160 on: May 17, 2007, 09:45:14 PM
You're still generalising from the statement as it existed in the original context. I said I was uninterested in arguing with people about morality that was derived from revealed truth. From that point on, I used the word revealed truth as a stand-in, much as bullshit and logic are stand-ins for actual argument. You could reword it, without changing the content, thus:

"I believe X because of revealed truth."

"X is demonstrably untrue because of Y and Z evidence."

"Y and Z evidence don't matter, because I'm talking about revealed truth, and revealed truth is right because it's revealed truth."

"Well, okay then."

To substitute "bullshit" for "Y and Z evidence" is flip, but it's no more dismissive -- and to generalize it toward all revealed truth is to assume that there's a basis for argument in the first place. I'm unlikely to argue with a Universal Unitarian because we probably agree, and so the argument wouldn't happen at all.

Second, who cares if I say that revealed truth is bullshit? Revealed truth is a bullshit way of learning about the world (note: even now that I'm saying this, I still haven't said that they are blanket bullshit -- they are valuable for personal reasons, for maintaining community, for other things. But for logical tests? For learning about the world? I don't think they are.). I think your beliefs are untrue, and based on wishful thinking -- which, if I'm being flip, I could also call horse hockey. If you belong to one of many Christian denominations that holds such beliefs, you believe I'm going to burn in eternal damnation for not paying lip service to your God. Which one of us is being more disrespectful?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 09:48:17 PM by palimpsest »



Anarkey

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Reply #161 on: May 17, 2007, 09:46:37 PM
I was presumptious enough to assume that anyone of faith would be offended by a statement that calls the core of thier being "bovine excrement".

Yeah, please don't presume or assume on my behalf.  I think she was pretty clear: religion does not stand up to the test of logic.  Were I in your shoes, I would say it's not supposed to, instead of complaining about how terrible it is that she doesn't believe what you believe.  You can still have a leg to stand on asserting  mystical/spiritual/enlightenment matters have value to individuals and societies without having to prove anything logically.  (asserting that these should also be the basis for laws to govern is a little shakier of course, but I'm not going to do that work for you, because frankly, I don't buy it, and I don't want to go there).

Were I in her shoes, I wouldn't use "mixed fabrics" or DKT's shellfish.   That's small potatoes.  You want to see real hipocrisy?  Try usury.  That's got numerous prohibitions all over the place (an incomplete list:Exodus 22:25, Leviticus 25:35-37, Deuteronomy 23:19,  Psalms 15:5,  Proverbs 28:8 ) and talk about a loaded topic.  Telling most modern-day American Christians that interest bearing accounts are eeeeevil according to their very own sacred book is really lighting a fuse.

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #162 on: May 17, 2007, 09:50:42 PM
" Were I in your shoes, I would say it's not supposed to"

Totally.

Which is more or less why I don't like arguing about morality when I'm coming from my position, and my interlocutor isn't. It's like arguing about the meaning of the universe with one of us using only colors and the other using only high-pitched rodent squeaks. We're not speaking the same language.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #163 on: May 17, 2007, 09:52:21 PM
But plenty of biblical words don't match up with reality, and then the fun starts.

I disagree.  ;D

But if there is discrepency, we should honestly analyze to determine where the flaw is: The supposed revelation, our perception of reality, or our interpretations of either.  Sadly, honesty is usually at a premium.  :(

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FNH

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Reply #164 on: May 17, 2007, 09:52:39 PM
Yeah, please don't presume or assume on my behalf.  I think she was pretty clear: religion does not stand up to the test of logic.  Were I in your shoes, I would say it's not supposed to, instead of complaining about how terrible it is that she doesn't believe what you believe. 

I didn't complain about that.  Did I ask anyone to believe what I believe?.  Am I making presumtions on your behalf? I think your getting a little tense and upset about this. 


FNH

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Reply #165 on: May 17, 2007, 09:55:13 PM
Try usury.  That's got numerous prohibitions all over the place (an incomplete list:Exodus 22:25, Leviticus 25:35-37, Deuteronomy 23:19,  Psalms 15:5,  Proverbs 28:8 ) and talk about a loaded topic.  Telling most modern-day American Christians that interest bearing accounts are eeeeevil according to their very own sacred book is really lighting a fuse.

Yes.



FNH

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Reply #166 on: May 17, 2007, 09:57:32 PM
Which is more or less why I don't like arguing about morality when I'm coming from my position, and my interlocutor isn't. It's like arguing about the meaning of the universe with one of us using only colors and the other using only high-pitched rodent squeaks. We're not speaking the same language.

:-)  I like that.  Can I be the squeaker?


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #167 on: May 17, 2007, 09:59:58 PM
"Sadly, honesty is usually at a premium. "

Well, miracles are another place where the magic of the religious position can get out of argument. We know it's physically impossible for the flood to have happened as biblical descriptions suggest, but miracles get one out of that pretty deftly.

I suppose the major problem isn't with the bible so much -- although, yanno, the sun doesn't revolve around the earth and suchlike -- but with attempts at creation science. "It was a miracle" is a much better argument (because it is free of the bounds of logical argumentation) than "see, the thing is, spring water is hydrogen preoxide," which a qualified scientist can slice, dice, and serve for lunch: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/05/a_new_creationist_argument.php#more

There is no evidence of a personal God, or efficacy of prayer, in the way that one would expect there to be if such things existed, but people (see: Marilynne Robinson's critique of the God Delusion) can argue their way theologically out of that, although it usually involves the invocation of a sort of diffuse God entitty which doesn't share much in common with the God worshipped by the majority of American Christians.



Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #168 on: May 17, 2007, 10:01:14 PM
Quote
:-)  I like that.  Can I be the squeaker?

Sure. I'll start: yellow, with a hint of orange. ;)



DKT

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Reply #169 on: May 17, 2007, 10:12:31 PM
Were I in her shoes, I wouldn't use "mixed fabrics" or DKT's shellfish.   That's small potatoes. 

*cough*  Clearly you don't understand how much I enjoy shrimp fajitas at the local Mexican dive ;) Small potatoes indeed.


SFEley

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Reply #170 on: May 17, 2007, 10:20:33 PM
(Are we setting a record for the longest thread here?  How about the most eclectic?)
If we can string this out to page 9, I think we'll have the record.

Astoundingly, this is about to catch up to the zombie thread.  I didn't think anything could compete with zombies.

However, now that I'm out of the discussion, I WILL resume the moderator hammer, and I'm watching this new tennis match very carefully.  The thread is about three words from being locked; but I won't say which three, and my intrinsic faith in humankind keeps me from doing anything just yet.

(Okay, intrinsic faith in humankind and the squeaky color thing.  That was pretty funny.)

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #171 on: May 17, 2007, 10:31:45 PM
"I disagree.  ;D"

Tweedy:

You disagree that the Christian bible doesn't match up with reality, but I presume that you agree that other people's religions don't? You, as a Christian, can't argue about revealed truth on the basis of objective reality with -- say -- a Buddhist or Zoroastrian or animist, any more than I can argue with either of you.

If revealed truth is objectively provable, then why does it enter conversations? Why talk about "God said so" at all? If God would only say that which can be externally confirmed, then why don't we confine ourselves to talking about those things? Certainly it's the only way that you, me, the Zoroastrian, a quintet of Jainists, and the living embodiment of the sacred goddess (insert name here) can have a discussion in which we'll all agree on the terms.

It's also the only way that we can come up with laws that are fair for all of us to live under. Otherwise, we run the risk of the Jainists forbidding us from crushing mosquitos, or our justice system helpless before Palestinian honor killings, or Christian churches forbidding miscegenation (which, I realize most don't do anymore, but many did, and it was a bad basis for law).



Anarkey

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Reply #172 on: May 17, 2007, 11:23:46 PM
I didn't complain about that.  Did I ask anyone to believe what I believe?.  Am I making presumtions on your behalf? I think your getting a little tense and upset about this. 

Well I am a person of faith, and you did say :
Quote from: FNH
I was presumptious enough to assume that anyone of faith would be offended by a statement that calls the core of thier being "bovine excrement".

So yeah, you presumed and assumed.  I asked you to refrain.  If my tone came across as insulted or upset, I was less careful than I'd like with my tone, because it was a simple request.  What I really meant was,"Please stop acting like you speak for me because you don't.  Thanks." 

As to complaining because palimpsest doesn't believe as you do, yes, that was a leap from what you were saying directly, but if you believed that it was inappropriate for her to call your religion bs (which I still maintain isn't exactly what she did), then you were asking her to hold your religion with the same reverence you do...something which would be nice, but which is not required of her, since she doesn't believe in it.

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #173 on: May 17, 2007, 11:28:22 PM
" The thread is about three words from being locked; but I won't say which three, and my intrinsic faith in humankind keeps me from doing anything just yet."

I just flipped back through the part of the thread I got too pissed off to read (which is the part after I made the remark about gay marriage not being anyone's business but gay people's, and then couldn't deal with reading anymore), and I also read Steve's comment on the other post, and I have this to say:

A) I refuse to let assertions about abortion lie, I'm afraid. If someone's there with the kindling, I'm there with the match. As it is no longer up for discussion here, I'm quite happy not to take up the torch again, but I didn't throw down the initial dry sticks.

B) I did throw down the initial dry sticks about the bible. I didn't intend to; I was going for informal speech, rather than "incredibly upsetting speech." I was mostly trying to make a jokey post about why I don't like arguing with people about revealed truths, which I eventually did with the color/squeaky thing, but I should have started with that tone in the first place. I write in a lot of political forums, and most of them operate on the assumption that people will vigorously disagree, and I didn't code switch right when I came here. So while I stand by what I said, I apologize for the language I said it in, and I'd like to gather up the sticks at this time.

C) I see that it distresses Steve to have this kind of conflagration on his board. It doesn't particularly bother me; like I said, I post in plenty of political fora (and am even moderating one these days), so I have a relatively high tolerance for debate at this point (as long as I can cut out when I've had enough, as happened earlier in this thread). He's right, of course; we're not going to change each other's minds, although I hope that some of the edges of what I'm saying are clearer now than they were initially (color/squeak + objective reality as common ground between people of various belief systems).

D) I don't like distressing Steve. My original point was trying to clarify my opinions on the concept of subjective/objective moral systems, which is a distinction I find unuseful for various reasons. We've now gone pretty far afield from that. So, unless people are really into where we've ended up -- which I suppose is still related (is revealed truth a proper basis for law) -- I'd like to suggest that people veer back toward the subjective/objective thing, which I'll probably stay out of, on account of me finding the distinction to be, as I said, unuseful, and on account of me having had my fill of this kind of argument in philosophy class. At some point, someone pulled out an argument that sounded like Hume's On Moral Philosophy and I kind of wanted to moan and crawl under my desk.

E) I'd like to apologize to those who are offended, including Steve, FNH, and Tweedy. Although I still stand by my statements and perspectives, and I think the argument we've had is probably based on real differences that can't and shouldn't be eased away with happy shinyness, I would currently like to offer you all some cute animal pictures in apology.

http://mfrost.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/08/i_need_a_juicebox.jpg
http://mfrost.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/08/thebrowntowelgang.jpg
http://mfrost.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/03/26/att08751.jpg


Cute animal pictures. The internet equivalent of a group hug. :)



slic

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Reply #174 on: May 18, 2007, 12:13:36 AM
No, because, frankly, the specific guidances of religion often lose their relevance over time.  Have any roosters crow into a glass and break it, lately?  How to deal with that specific case is covered in the Quran.  Worried about eating shellfish - check out Leviticus.  Pork bother you - try the Talmud.

I don't "get" any of that.  Your terms of reference didn't come across to me I'm afraid.  I'm assuming your backing up the "guidances of religion" assertion.  I would disagree with that.
Sheesh, post right before a big meeting, check the thread after dinner, and wham.
I think most of my points were made by the other posters, but I'll take a crack anyway.  In each of the books of the three biggest religion there are rules/guidelines that are somewhat specific.  I tried to pick out a rough example form one of each, but there are many.  There is an actual passage in the Quran that lays out what the compensation is for when someone's rooster breaks a glass by crowing - is that relevent today?  Why Leviticus wrote that people shouldn't eat shellfish, pork or tolerate homosexual men is irrelevant to my point that these are rules that have changed over time, that good people, honest people, believers have decided that they are not relevant - so don't make laws out of them. 

And one pointed remark - to say you as a Christian only follow the New Testament is exactly my earlier point about selective belief - if there are a few lines of the New Testament you don't like, why not just skip those?  I don't recall Moses telling us that we could follow 8 commandments if we found two of them annoying?