Author Topic: The Second Rule  (Read 17084 times)

SFEley

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on: May 17, 2007, 10:58:39 PM
See this topic, and tell me what you think should be the right policy.

Serious and thoughtful replies only, please.  Flames will get deleted.  I have zero patience for them right now.

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Bdoomed

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Reply #1 on: May 17, 2007, 11:40:29 PM
Hmm, while I do agree that what he did was out of line, I think you overexaggerated your retort.  Just a bit too harsh there.  I don't think Tweedy meant as much malice behind his post as you made it out to be. (but then again I am not perfect in interpreting actions)

Anyways, I also do agree that there should be a second rule.  It can be as simple as the first rule... "Don't instigate/provocate" or if you want to be more specific, "Don't instigate/provocate without due context (ie. theme raised by story)"
Short, sweet, and to the point.  It might get a bit dicy tho, the line between provocation within and without context might be hazy.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


FNH

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Reply #2 on: May 18, 2007, 07:51:59 AM
Seemed a bit harsh.

Perhaps he was angry.  Perhaps he wanted debate. Perhaps Trolling.

Reads like your trying to punish him with community scorn. 

Opinion : Rules fine, punishment no.

That said, I dont know anymore about your intentions than I do his.  Maybe I should be quite.


Heradel

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Reply #3 on: May 18, 2007, 09:31:12 AM
I've thought about it, and it does... well, it's got the ring of trolling for an argument. He dissociated the argument from himself, he knew that the line of argument had almost gotten another thread locked/posts deleted. He'll need to speak for himself, but it does seem tinted.

As to what should be banned/warned against, I'm not sure where a line can be drawn. Any talk about religion can lead down that path. But banning all talk about it doesn't seem... just.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Thaurismunths

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Reply #4 on: May 18, 2007, 12:28:19 PM
I apologize if this embarrasses or upsets anyone. I prefer to do something like this privately, but this is about a public matter and public figures. Likewise, I apologize if this is overly broad for the topic presented.

-Steve: In your reply to Mr. Tweedy you have done disservice to your position as host on these forums. Unfortunately you are Steve Eley (sorry, I couldn't get it to blink too), host of Escape Pod and founding father of these forums. As much as you like being down in the fray with all us groundlings, you're still top dog, which means 'something more' is always expected of you. I don't mean to say that you can't participate in the discussions, your presence and input are always encouraged and appreciated, but you will automatically be held to a slightly higher standard. I've not seen you do anything untoward in a thread, so please don't stop posting. I'm only referring to this one rebuke. Like a father needs to be patient with an unruly child, so to do you need to exhibit restraint and patience on the forums. No matter how much the little SOB deserves it.

-Moderators: Where were you in Tolerant / Intolerant? You in the collective sense. Steve handed his objectivity over to Michael back on page 4 (May 14), and for that I give him credit, but that was before the thread got really messy. Bdoomed and Michael, you were both active on the thread and got caught in the mire. Russell and Jim both seemed to avoid it and may not have been following. Mur, well, she can't do anything wrong (she hasn't got time!) and Ryuujin hasn't been on in a month. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm kind of gesturing in your direction. I wasn't there, I can't see behind the scenes, and I don't know what kind of private communications were going on, but I suspect not enough.
It's an unpleasant job, but you're here for a reason, and although no one out-right called names things were getting pretty offensive (or at least promising to be). I know that you're all volunteers with other things going on in your lives. You can't be everywhere, you can't read everything, and you all have your own opinions of right, wrong, offensive, and "Oh no, you did NOT just say that!" I don't fault any of you for not stopping this, because this thread ran in to some really gray areas. Free speech is of vital importance to this site and shouldn't be inhibited, but perhaps more could be done to encouraging some of the contributors to tone how they speeched freely? I don't know how much communication happens behind the scenes, but you as a collective, are there to potentially step on toes and possibly offend people by cramping their style. It sucks, but that's what moderators do. They moderate.

-Mr. Tweedy. WTF? No, really. You just jumped in to this with both feet, didn't you?
Well, in my experience we're all a pretty open-minded and forgiving lot. You have strong views, and aren't afraid to defend them: That's welcomed, appreciated, and encouraged here. You have, however, riled up a lot of people and stepped on a lot of toes. I doubt there's anyone here who will hold a grudge, but I don't think anyone here is going to forget in the next couple days. Please stay and continue adding to our community, but do be mindful that your opinions may be controversial. There are others here who have said some controversial things, and they are still welcome and active participants. We appreciate your viewpoint, and the addition of your voice enriches this community. I really, honestly mean that.
But kicking others in the shin to make your voice sound louder is not appreciated.

-Free Speech: You should feel free to express ANY viewpoint here. You should not feel free to express it anyway you want. There's a big difference between "I think women have biological advantages over men." and "BOW DOWN ALL YOU SCROTUM-TOTING SCUM!"

-New Rule: "Don't be dumb. You know when you're doing it, so just stop."

(edit: added)
-My Part: I was part of Tolerant / Intolerant too, and read all the posts. I bowed out when I thought I didn't have anything new to say, and realized that every post I thought to right was just abusive and bashing. I think I did ok on that. On the other hand, I didn't do anything to sooth tempers, express a calm and non-inflammatory view, or tag the moderators asking them to review the goings ons of that thread. Watching someone get mugged doesn't make you guilty, but it doesn't mean you're innocent either.

(edit: pa. 2, "dishonor" to "disservice". Dishonor was far too overstated.)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 01:52:00 PM by Thaurismunths »

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


JaredAxelrod

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Reply #5 on: May 18, 2007, 01:23:40 PM
Personally, I think you were right on this one, Steve. Not harsh at all. The guy just wanted to start an argument.  Not a discussion, an argument.  He wanted a fight.  I believe Mr. Tweedy when he said he wasn't going to join in; why would he have to?  We'd tear each other to bits all on our own, he'd just have to sit back an watch.

I feel a second rule is definatly needed, along the lines of Warren Ellis's The Engine's first rule: " Act like a arse or treat the place like your personal Electronic Arguing Machine, and you'll be made to leave the table."

Screw being polite.  If you want to instigate fights, you have no place here.



Anarkey

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Reply #6 on: May 18, 2007, 03:20:42 PM
See this topic, and tell me what you think should be the right policy.

Serious and thoughtful replies only, please.  Flames will get deleted.  I have zero patience for them right now.

I'm with Heradel and Axelrod (and I guess you too, Steve).  Mr. Tweedy was trolling, and being NOT nice.  I really don't appreciate him doing the dissociating thing, either, as Heradel pointed out. " This person doesn't care enough about this board to post her opinion, but I'll feel totally free to represent her here" is very wtf in my book, and troubles me on all sorts of agency and power axis levels (which don't apply to moderating but bug me anyway).  I really got the poking the bear feel from "oh hey, I'm going to throw this out there and then walk away!" announcement.

Again, that's not dialog, not a discussion, not even an argument.  That's just turning over rocks to see what crawls out.

I love the Making Light school of moderation...is there a way to disemvowel here?  Their discourse almost never fails to be interesting, literate and respectful.

Steve, I think you were within your rights to shut him down, and even within your rights to show that the post had irritated you.  It's perfectly alright to call someone on being an ass (as Jared noted).  I'm not with the school of PC which says you have to allow your worthwhile board to be trampled by jackasses.  You want that crap?  Go do it in the something awful forums (to pick a random example of what's far more usual in web forums), where it's a virtue to be a jerk.  As for showing he had crossed the line with you, personally, I encourage that.  Palimpsest noted that most of us here aren't thinking up ways to distress you and will stop doing whatever we're doing if you make it known we're making you angry.  It's still your house and you have every right to not have stupid crap going on inside it.

As for the phrasing of the rule, I disagree that it should be topical.  I also have no concerns if it's vague, by which I mean something phrased like: "posts that lower the level of discourse," is ok with me. Most of us are adults, we can handle grey area directives. 

As to Thaurismunths' "where were the moderator in the Tolerance/Intolerance thread", the community itself could be well within its rights to say, "oh hey, you know what?  We don't do that here.  Maybe you can take a breather, or go do that elsewhere, or talk about something else."  That's another lesson from Making Light.  If community policing doesn't work, the moderators step in and freeze the account for 24 hours, or disemvowel or whatever is called for.

I'm not sure from your post, Thauris, whether you thought I was piling on or not...but I have a great respect for a number of posters here, yourself included, and if you had said, either in the thread or in a PM,"Yo, Anarkey, maybe chill, no need to beat anyone to a pulp," I would have considered it.  Judging from palimpsest's post about readjusting her debate mode for the kinder Escape Pod forums, she would have done the same if someone had gently noted her tone was a bit on the abrasive side.

Let me also add, Thauris, that I love your cooking posts, but I am so lazy I wish you would just bake the bread and bring it to my house.  Secondly, I really respect that you know yourself well enough that you know when to step out of an inflammatory thread.  Again, I respect that, and would have respected you telling me I might be carrying things a tad too far.

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ClintMemo

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Reply #7 on: May 18, 2007, 03:58:17 PM
My quick 2 cents:

If he was fishing for an emotional reaction, he caught the Kraken. :P

I think a "no trolling" rule would be good. Trolling isn't about discussing a topic, it's about manipulating other posters into reacting.

I don't have a problem with people wanting to discuss a controversial topic as long as it is about the topic and not flaming each other.

This is Steve's sandbox so he is fully entitled to make the rules be whatever he wants them to be.

Steve is very cool for soliciting for opinions before making new rules.

Mr Tweedy: congratulations on becoming a dad! (Beware: it is likely to change your perspectives on everything.)

(This is all according to my own subjective morality, of course.  :P  )

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


Thaurismunths

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Reply #8 on: May 18, 2007, 04:10:30 PM
As to Thaurismunths' "where were the moderator in the Tolerance/Intolerance thread", the community itself could be well within its rights to say, "oh hey, you know what?  We don't do that here.  Maybe you can take a breather, or go do that elsewhere, or talk about something else."  That's another lesson from Making Light.  If community policing doesn't work, the moderators step in and freeze the account for 24 hours, or disemvowel or whatever is called for.
You are absolutely right, and I'm sorry if I did a poor job of expressing that in my post.
It is as much my and the community's responsibility to monitor and moderate these things as it is the Moderators. They just have editing power. I have on other occasions sent PMs to people suggesting the tone down their comments, apologizing for offences, and just to make sure people know that I'm not dumping on them. This all happens off of the forum because, like I said in my header, that I prefer to handle these things privately.

Quote
I'm not sure from your post, Thauris, whether you thought I was piling on or not...but I have a great respect for a number of posters here, yourself included, and if you had said, either in the thread or in a PM,"Yo, Anarkey, maybe chill, no need to beat anyone to a pulp," I would have considered it.  Judging from palimpsest's post about readjusting her debate mode for the kinder Escape Pod forums, she would have done the same if someone had gently noted her tone was a bit on the abrasive side.
I do not think you were "piling," but thank you for being concerned. It shows that you are conscious about your thoughts and actions. I won't say we are in perfect agreement with each other, but that's not a bad thing in my book. A couple of things you posted I outright disagree with, but I like discussion, and I like having my perspective widened. So, thank you for participating.

Quote
Let me also add, Thauris, that I love your cooking posts, but I am so lazy I wish you would just bake the bread and bring it to my house.  Secondly, I really respect that you know yourself well enough that you know when to step out of an inflammatory thread.  Again, I respect that, and would have respected you telling me I might be carrying things a tad too far.
Thank you. That's very cool that you respect me, and I respect you. I think things start to fall apart when we stop respecting each other.
As for the bread thing: For as often as I actually get to bake anything, I think my girlfriend would stop respecting my right to live if I gave even a slice away. ;)

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


DKT

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Reply #9 on: May 18, 2007, 05:50:29 PM
First, I find myself pretty much in total agreement with Axelrod.  We seem to have a great community here largely because people obey the first rule.  So my vote for a second rule actually is actually just a continuation of the first: Respectful discussions are cool.  Fishing for fights isn't. 

Second, I have to confess I might be one of the more, um, sensitive posters on this board.  Like when Steve said something about that particular thread only 3 words away from being deleted, it was right after a lame joke I made about shellfish and I PMed him to apologize because I actually thought it was a reaction to my post.  So I just want to reiterate here that I've got nothing but respect for the posters and moderators on this board.  I have a soft spot for topics about religion (especially Christianity) so if you ever think I get out of line, please shoot me a PM. 


BlairHippo

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Reply #10 on: May 18, 2007, 06:15:14 PM
I would like to suggest the following:  don't worry about a second rule, and simply expand the first to:

Don't be an asshole.

Insulting somebody?  Then you're breaking The Rule.  Knock it off.  Trolling?  That would be in violation of The Rule, too.  Quit it.

Disagreeing with somebody?  Posting about how much you disliked a story?  Well, that depends.  Are you being an asshole about it?  No?  Then all is well.



Anarkey

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Reply #11 on: May 18, 2007, 06:24:08 PM
Like when Steve said something about that particular thread only 3 words away from being deleted, it was right after a lame joke I made about shellfish and I PMed him to apologize because I actually thought it was a reaction to my post.

FWIW, I thought your joke was laugh out loud funny, but there didn't seem to be a place in the conversation to say so, and I let my amusement pass without comment.

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DKT

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Reply #12 on: May 18, 2007, 10:35:44 PM
It's good to know I've still got it sometimes, Anarkey  ;)

I also want to say after reading the apology in the thread that spawned this one I do appreciate Mr. Tweedy's apology.  I still think the thread was nothing but fishing and I'm glad it's locked.


Michael

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Reply #13 on: May 18, 2007, 11:34:00 PM
"Mr. Tweedy's" post was ridiculous and I am surprised you did not delete it on the spot, Steve.

(I advocate moving such things out of public view while cooling off).

This is flame baiting, pure and simple "I am going to post this incendiary topic and say nothing more about it"

One of the things I did not post before when he was hitting the fundamentalist key on the "tolerance" thread was that this is an overwhelmingly male forum, and experience has taught me that it is very easy for MEN to make rules about how WOMEN must behave.  The old saying that if men had babies abortion rights would be guaranteed in  both the Bible and Constitution seems very true--it isn't ever going to be their problem, so legislating their sperm "rights" seems a revealed truth.   This is therefore totally the wrong place to be chest beating about this.

My only surprise is that you didn't disappear both his post and user account--your self restraint is remarkable.



Bdoomed

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Reply #14 on: May 18, 2007, 11:57:14 PM
Okay, ive read most of these responses.

Where were the moderators (ie. me heh): well the tolerance/intolerance thread i read the first 3 pages or so of, and i chose to just sit back and watch, instead of input.  I came home one day to see a large spike in the pages, and i frankly did not have any time to sort through it all.  I had seen Sir Eley and Michael post there and felt that the topic was sufficiently monitored, plus there were very active and good members of the forums in that thread.
And backing up what Anarkey said about the community involvement, there is a "report to moderator" link on the bottom right hand corner of every post.  If ANYONE feels that there is anything wrong with a post, that person is encouraged to report it.  We will not reveal (or at least I wont, but i do believe I am speaking for all of the moderators here) who reported the post, but we will review that post and do what is necessary for said post/coment.
But, by saying this, I am not saying that it was not my fault for not moderating that topic.  It was part of my job and i should have helped out.  In the future I will try to cover more topics, especially the multiple paged topics.  I am sorry for being negligent.

That said, I believe, in light of Mr. Tweedy's recent apology, that we should forgive but not forget.  By not forget I mean keep that topic as a prime example of the second rule.  But let us not hold Mr. Tweedy in a bad light, everyone makes mistakes, AND he has already been thoroughly repremanded (and publicly humiliated) for his actions.  More repremand and humiliation is not going to make things better, in fact it will most likely spark a division among the forums, and I would hate to see anyone openly hating anyone else.  We are a great group of respectful, intelligent people.  Even those of us who are deeply rooted in their beliefs are still generally respectful to the beliefs of others (mostly, generally)
I believe Mr. Tweedy actually put what I am saying/trying to say very well in the Tolerant/Intolerant thread:
Quote
There has been a lot of disagreement, and lot of opposing viewpoints, but everyone has been allowed to speak and everyone has been listened to.  We have not agreed.  We have not acknowledged that our viewpoints are all equal.  Far from it: SFEley thinks my viewpoints are “naive” and he “disagrees with [my] basic premise.”  He thinks I’m totally wrong, but he has allowed my to continue posting.  He hasn’t tried to get me kicked off or used mockery to shut me up.
now this was before he went out of line, but he got repremand when he deserved it.

anyways, again, I would hate to have this forum broken up or even just polarized because of an incident like this.  Mr. Tweedy is still very much welcome to this forum and I hope he does not feel ostracized or hated. (and by the same token I hope that no one hates him or wants to ostracize him)

there's my *counts- 2,4,6,8* 10 cents
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 11:59:46 PM by Bdoomed »

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Michael

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Reply #15 on: May 19, 2007, 09:13:47 AM
I just want to say that was a rapidly moving topic which added 3 pages after I went to bed one night.  It was hard to moderate because it was complex and no individual post was ever quite over the line--though as a gestalt it was distressing.  I don't feel I can delete a post just because I disagree with the message contained in it--it has to actually be abusive.  I retrospect I might have locked it to cool it off at one point, but that is all I can think of.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2007, 05:14:35 PM by Michael »



Michael

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Reply #16 on: May 19, 2007, 05:18:42 PM
Here is the best Forum Code I have ever seen, maybe it could be adapted (2-General Principles):

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Basic Philosophy of the Message Board. While the majority of users of this message board are likely to classify themselves as liberals or Democrats, and the message board is used as a message board for fans of Al Franken, it is important to note that the board is an open discussion of Al Franken, news, politics, and all facets of the world. However, this board welcomes members of all political parties, ideologies, and views. As with anything in life, in order to facilitate pleasant and productive discussions, it is important that board members abide by certain general principles discussed in #2.

1) ADMINISTRATION OF THE BOARD

The main person responsible for this post is:

Administrator (FrankenWeb). The webmaster of AlFrankenWeb.com. Responsible for the technical aspects of the board, such as backing up data, paying for bills, promotion of the board, and others. The administrator also has moderator powers: the ability to move/edit/delete posters when necessary.

2) GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF THE BOARD

In truth, it is impossible to give line by line legal-type guidelines to how you have to post, and what you can or cannot post because, simply, there are so many variables in conversing in a message board such as this. However, there are two general principles that this website goes by. People should be respectful of these principles. Those who are not may no longer be able to post.

A) Do not be an ass.
While it is perfectly fine to engage in rigorous and intense debate, there are times and instances when posters can get out of hand. Further, there are posters who deliberately attempt to sabotage or wreck the posts of people on this board. If you are going to be an ass on this board, the community does not want you around.

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"Flame wars with other boards. We do not encourage posters to use this site to start or maintain conflicts with other boards. This is a discussion board and should be treated as such. If you have a problem or issue elsewhere, take it there: elsewhere.

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If someone is consistent in behavior becoming of an ass, the community has a right to take action.

2) Do not make a mess.

Mistakes are fine. However, intentionally making a mess of the community is not. If you do this, we may clean it up and, possibly, take action against posters.

Types of Messes.

1) Hijacking Threads. Intentionally disrupting posters for malicious purposes or selfish gains, or baiting and annoying posters or the community is indicative of someone trying to create a mess.

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Swearing is allowed on the board. There are several reasons for this: 1) the board assumes that the audience is of a swearing-cognizant age, given they have come to the site because of their interest in a) Al Franken and b) politics. However, take care in the use of your swear words, as they may fall under the category of quote unquote being an ass.

SUMMARY

In the history of the board, it is not often that the board has had to take action against posters. However, there are cases in which quote unquote ass posters come to the message board with the intent to disrupt the community created. The administration is here to ensure that when such posters come, there are proper warnings for those posters, and a clear indication that such actions will not be tolerated and there is a system to deal with it.

Ultimately, this forum has been created for discussion. We are all part of this world, and we all presumably want the best for the United States. While we may disagree on how best to achieve this, we can at least discuss among ourselves in a thoughtful and civil manner. Please keep this in mind, and have fun.

--Eric, Administrator.


Simon

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Reply #17 on: May 19, 2007, 06:52:52 PM

- The previous content of this piece has been removed by the author -

Earlier today I posted a moderately emotional tirade against what has happened on these discussion boards over the last few weeks, because something about them really got to me.  I felt (and still feel) that Escape Pod had descended into a discussion that was extremely America-centric, and that the way the community (and most of all, sadly, Steve) had responded to it was damaging to the place.

This place is the best damn Audio - SF community on the web.  There is a place for this, it's important, and I'm damn damn damn glad it exists. 

When EP moved into the forums game I was apprehensive, because there is a tendency for forums to descend into me-too-ism discussion, gaining "community" at the expense of theme and focus.  This particular America-centric series of fistfights has really re-inforced that view...

EP is too valuable to lose to this community driven dross, there is no-one who does what this place does and can be...  I therefor suggest killing the Gallimaufry section completely, and forming a firmer "Only SF/horror/Escape Artists Related material" line, because the current direction is harmful, because I could smell this coming from the start.

7000+ Science Fiction fans listen to this place, and a significant number of those trickle over into these forums where stories can be dissected, the minutae of SF can be discussed, and an educated audience guaranteed...  Please can we not lose this place to being just another bloody "community" forum.

Science Fiction is global... Please don't make me feel like a Stranger In A Strange Land.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2007, 07:34:15 PM by Simon »



FNH

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Reply #18 on: May 19, 2007, 07:21:47 PM
I don't know if it is small minded of me but these debates (the classic rep-dem arguments of the last ten years, about American Christian morality) are definitely flagging on my repulsive buttons... You only need to start talking about Gun Control and the Death Penalty to hit any more of these parochial issues that Only Americans Talk About (capitals definitely needed).

Its not just Americans!


sirana

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Reply #19 on: May 19, 2007, 07:46:01 PM
Ok, I am also someone who missed the beginning of this completely.
The first thing I saw of this was Steve's reply to the "What my wife thinks about abortion" thread and I thought it was way over the top.
Then I read through the tolerant/intolerant thread and I think I understand a bit better why Steve reacted the way he did... but I still think it was over the top.
Maybe I am not sensitive enough to this because I wasn't involved in the thread, but I didn't see the tolerant/intolerant thread as "a large bonfire that was constantly threatening to break out of control".
Abortion and Homosexuality are issues that many people have very strong opinions about and that makes them dangerous topics, but what I read in the thread looked like a civil exchange of (very different) opinions to me.

The "What my wife thinks about abortion"-thread was definitely over the line, but I honestly don't see it as flaming or trolling.
I also don't see it as an so important event that it should change the way discussions on the forum develope. I also don't think any rule that we as a community adopt would help in a situation like this. This is something that happens and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference if you can say "this is unacceptable because the rule says so" or if you simply say "this is unacceptable".
I think Mr. Tweedys apology is sincere and heartfelt and that can/should be the end of it.
If something like that occurs again (and knowing this to be the Intertubes it will) it has to be dealt with on its own and I don't think any rule will

a)prevent it from happening
b) help with dealing with it.




sirana

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Reply #20 on: May 19, 2007, 07:59:19 PM
I therefor suggest killing the Gallimaufry section completely, and forming a firmer "Only SF/horror/Escape Artists Related material" line

and not have threads like this one? http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=20.0



Kurt Faler

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Reply #21 on: May 19, 2007, 09:02:29 PM

- The previous content of this piece has been removed by the author -

...  I therefor suggest killing the Gallimaufry section completely, and forming a firmer "Only SF/horror/Escape Artists Related material" line, because the current direction is harmful, because I could smell this coming from the start.


OK this is gonna sound harsh but think puppies when you read it because its not meant to be. Could you maybe just not read the Gallimaufry section? If you only come here to talk about the stories then those forums should be all that you would want to read. If anything from the Gallimaufry were to spill over into them then yes, that would be a problem for the mods to deal with. But maybe this could be as easy as self censoring instead of community censoring?




Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #22 on: May 21, 2007, 07:52:53 PM
Hey, it's me, the instigator!

For the record, I don't think Steve's reaction was too extreme: My post was all the bad things everyone has been saying about it, and I think his anger was justified.  Escape Pod thing is very important to him (and everyone else) and when someone seems to be trying to screw up something you've worked hard to make, it makes you mad.  Add that to the fact that I was a prime participant in the controversial tellerant/intollerant thread and it might look like "Mr. Tweedy" is some thug looking to start fights.  I don't think anyone would be nuts to come to that conclusion.

That said, there is a point I want to make that I don't think anyone's considering: There actually are some people on this "internet" thing who are newbies.  I've never been a member of any forum before, and this is all very new to me.  ("Trolling"?  What's that?)

While it seems transparently obvious to me now, I really didn't realize I was doing something rude or stupid at the time I made that post.  I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I was just very ignorant.  I've already been shown mercy, personally, but if you all are going to make new rules, you should account for the fact that Escape Pod might attract people like me who are forum-challenged and may need a little time to figure out where the boundaries are.

That said, it seems to me that Steve's response was appropriate: He loudly and clearly said "This crosses the line," and he held the line-crosser up to a little public scorn to teach everyone a lesson.  I actually think it might a good idea to retain such violations and put them on a board somewhere that says "These are example of bad behavior.  Don't do stuff like this."  A wall-of-shame, if you will*.  That would help dumbies like me figure out the rules very quickly and save us from making fools of ourselves and pissing everyone else off while we're at it.  It would also provide a more flexible and amendable standard than simply making a "thou-shalt-not" style rule.

Those are my two cents, as a newbie and a self-confessed ignoramus.

*Although you'd probably want to remove the poster's names on this wall, so as to not permanently stagmatize anybody.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 09:44:14 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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lowky

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Reply #23 on: June 26, 2007, 11:35:14 PM
along these lines, another board for WoW (I know I am a World of Warcrack Junkie[ not an addict, not ready to quit or go to meetings] ;)) that I participate in has an administrative thread http://ledmirage.net/forums/ (only posting link to main page, as there is not necessarily the same level of work/child safety self censorship that we have here).  Basically when a thread is devolving into idiocy/trolling type behavior it gets moved here, and is essentially a locked thread with an explanation of why usually given.  Just a suggestion. 


Planish

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Reply #24 on: August 29, 2007, 09:10:10 PM
Some threads are like people...
Quote from: Oscar Wilde
It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.

Steve: Your house, your rules. Works for me.

I feed The Pod.
("planish" rhymes with "vanish")


robertmarkbram

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Reply #25 on: September 06, 2007, 11:37:25 AM
There is a need for rules, a code, something to let us know what boundaries the care-takers have in place. Simple rules are the easiest to understand. Too much text and it easy to stop paying attention or someone decides to argue rule 413, paragraph 3, sub-clause 5.8. Perhaps a summary or preamble can be kept in the foreground and a more detailed version can lie a click away.

"Be nice" is about as simple as it can get. It is subjective, but the idea is plain. Moderators must be willing to set examples and clearly state when and why the line has been crossed. An even handed approach is important to provide room for new-comers who are just learning, and room for those who get carried away to apologise and keep contributing to the group.

Steve, as the Ultimate Care Taker, you are always going to have the "final word", so the rules must represent what you think to be right and fair. You are doing a good job. You have a healthy online community here.


Russell Nash

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Reply #26 on: September 06, 2007, 11:48:35 AM
There is a need for rules, a code, something to let us know what boundaries the care-takers have in place. Simple rules are the easiest to understand. Too much text and it easy to stop paying attention or someone decides to argue rule 413, paragraph 3, sub-clause 5.8. Perhaps a summary or preamble can be kept in the foreground and a more detailed version can lie a click away.

"Be nice" is about as simple as it can get. It is subjective, but the idea is plain. Moderators must be willing to set examples and clearly state when and why the line has been crossed. An even handed approach is important to provide room for new-comers who are just learning, and room for those who get carried away to apologise and keep contributing to the group.

Steve, as the Ultimate Care Taker, you are always going to have the "final word", so the rules must represent what you think to be right and fair. You are doing a good job. You have a healthy online community here.

Normally if we think you're pushing the limits, a moderator dressed all in black visits you at night in your PM box and tells you to lighten up or else… 

Given we're closing in a 1000 members and 15,000 posts, I think we have had very few problems.  Maybe it's the literary angle of the podcast, but our asshole factor is extremely low.