Sarcasm

[Simon Painter]

This is following up on a comment made on another thread some time ago in which someone referenced Douglas Adams as an example of Sarcasm.  This was an idea that completely caught me by surprise at the time, as I'd never thought of him that way.  I'm wondering if definitions of Sarcasm vary between countries.  So how would you folks define sarcasm?  What would you give as an example of it?  Is it a good or bad thing?

A few questions I've been wondering about on and off for a while now.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

[Mr. Tweedy]

Sarcasm is usually when you mean the opposite of what you say.  It's a rhetorical device for mocking people.

For instance, if you have a really bad haircut, I might offer you excessive praise for your new hairstyle, so excessive that my praise cannot possibly be heartfelt, at which point it becomes apparent that I'm just making fun of you.  It's usually considered rude in conversation because it comes across as mockery rather than constructive criticism.  It's also indirect; people have to figure out what you really mean instead of taking your words litterally.  Because of that, you can be mocking someone for a few sentences before they understand what you're saying, which makes them feel stupid and ads to the rudeness of whatever criticism you're making.  By veiling your criticism with sarcasm, you can sneak around someone's guard and sting them before they realize what's going on.

Then there's the quick sarcastic jab, which can be as short as a single word: "Nice."  That isn't usually considered as rude, but it still bugs some people.

[Anarkey]

This is following up on a comment made on another thread some time ago in which someone referenced Douglas Adams as an example of Sarcasm.  This was an idea that completely caught me by surprise at the time, as I'd never thought of him that way.  I'm wondering if definitions of Sarcasm vary between countries. 

Well I am American, and I wouldn't call Douglas Adams' brand of humor sarcastic.  I'd call it absurdist.  What would you call it, madSimonJ?

[ClintMemo]

I think many people confuse sarcasm and satire.  Satire is used to point out the flaws (usually absurdity) of something in the hopes of bringing about change.  Sarcasm is just meant to be hurtful.  The tone of each is different.  A lot of Douglas Adam's stuff strikes me as satire, not sarcasm.

[Bdoomed]

i agree, Adams' humor was more satire/ironic than sarcastic... im sure there was some sarcasm in there but it wasn't the main brand of humor.
i think people would get sarcasm and irony mixed up more than sarcasm and satirism (though those two have similar spellings too)

either way, Adams is f!#@ing hilarious

[Simon Painter]

Hi all,

      Sorry I'm a bit late responding.  Thanks everyone for your replies, it's been interesting reading them.

I'd call it absurdist.  What would you call it, madSimonJ?

I'd probably go with Glib, it's not a perfect fit, but it's the best I can do.

I think many people confuse sarcasm and satire.

i think people would get sarcasm and irony mixed up more than sarcasm and satirism

These are both interesting observations.  I've not seen much of this confusion in the UK, could it be a US thing?  Or are there other countries where this is common?

either way, Adams is f!#@ing hilarious

Agreed! 

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

[ClintMemo]

It's not surprising that we Americans mix up satire and irony, since we apparently don't "get" irony, according to popular lore. 

[Simon Painter]

It's not surprising that we Americans mix up satire and irony, since we apparently don't "get" irony, according to popular lore. 

Is that actually true?  I've heard that particular bit of folk 'wisdom' time and time again, I'm curious to know if it really is the case.  On a similar line, people say that the Germans have no sense of humour, having lived there for a year, I can say with certainty that it's not true 

[SFEley]

It's not surprising that we Americans mix up satire and irony, since we apparently don't "get" irony, according to popular lore. 

Is that actually true?  I've heard that particular bit of folk 'wisdom' time and time again, I'm curious to know if it really is the case.  On a similar line, people say that the Germans have no sense of humour, having lived there for a year, I can say with certainty that it's not true 

Well, any generalization is dangerous.  The greatest ironist in history, Mark Twain, was American.  However, although his work was popular, it's unclear whether he exerted much influence on society.  If he had, his work wouldn't still be funny today. 

With the caveat in place: I have observed that Americans (as a generality) tend to take themselves far too seriously far too much of the time.  There's a sense of superiority built into our culture that really gets on my nerves sometimes.  I personally think that getting knocked out of the "#1 superpower" position (which is inevitable in 10 to 15 years) may actually be good for our culture, assuming we manage to take it with a thread of grace and don't implode over it.

That's what I think of American culture as a fuzzy blob.  Within that culture, there are a great many subcultures who don't take themselves too seriously, and many many many people.  I like those people.  I try to be one.

I do miss irony sometimes, but it tends to be from a particular sort of overfocus.  I have a strange tendency to take things literally when they weren't meant that way.  Might be from reading too much SF.  >8->

[Rachel Swirsky]

I also think it's possible to look at whether Americans take themselves too seriously in multiple contexts. We may be likely to emphasize the seriousness in one, and not so in another.

[Simon Painter]

I personally think that getting knocked out of the "#1 superpower" position (which is inevitable in 10 to 15 years) may actually be good for our culture, assuming we manage to take it with a thread of grace and don't implode over it.

That's an interesting thought.  It occurs to me that a hundred years or so ago, the English were thought of as being a pretty humourless bunch (stiff upper lip, and all that) and Americans were typically portrayed as being extremely layed back.  Back then, though, it was us that were pretty much the #1 Superpower, I wonder if there's something about being considered powerfull that drains the humour from people?    Are we about to witness the death of Chinese stand-up comedy?

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

[Roney]

It's not surprising that we Americans mix up satire and irony, since we apparently don't "get" irony, according to popular lore. 

Is that actually true?  I've heard that particular bit of folk 'wisdom' time and time again, I'm curious to know if it really is the case.

My counterexample to this assertion is always Frasier (the first few seasons at least -- it seemed to rely ever more heavily on ever-broader farce as time went on).  Irony was the lifeblood of that show, written by Americans and popular with them too.  I can't think of a British sitcom that matches it.

[ClintMemo]

I saw an interview with Simon Pegg Shawn of the Dead online somewhere, talking about "Hot Fuzz", debunking the myth that Americans have no sense of irony.

(btw, Hot Fuzz is brilliant.)

Swan!

[Roney]

I saw an interview with Simon Pegg Shawn of the Dead online somewhere, talking about "Hot Fuzz", debunking the myth that Americans have no sense of irony.

Possibly the piece he wrote for the Guardian Weekend magazine.

[SFEley]

Possibly the piece he wrote for the Guardian Weekend magazine.

Heh.  I love this:

A: "If you don't come out tonight, I'm going to have you shot... just kidding."

Of course, being America, this might be true, because they do all own guns and use them on a regular basis (just kidding). Americans can fully appreciate irony. They just don't feel entirely comfortable using it on each other, in case it causes damage. A bit like how we feel about guns.

[ClintMemo]

I saw an interview with Simon Pegg Shawn of the Dead online somewhere, talking about "Hot Fuzz", debunking the myth that Americans have no sense of irony.

Possibly the piece he wrote for the Guardian Weekend magazine.

Yes! That was it. 
(I'd give you the prize, but I think I already gave it to Anarkey, and I don't want to trivialize what she did. )