Author Topic: English Words for "Foreign" Concepts  (Read 38097 times)

Listener

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on: June 07, 2007, 06:24:24 PM
A few interesting concepts that need to have a single English word that can apply to them:

je ne sais quois - that indefinable something I cannot describe

nichevo - it can't be helped

Am I missing these words?

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ClintMemo

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Reply #1 on: June 07, 2007, 06:31:12 PM
A few interesting concepts that need to have a single English word that can apply to them:

je ne sais quois - that indefinable something I cannot describe

My wife has a bunch of made up words for that - watchamcallit, thingamabob, whatsis, whatchaficky, dohickey...
Somehow they just don't have the same impact. :P


nichevo - it can't be helped


Inevitable?

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Listener

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Reply #2 on: June 07, 2007, 06:33:43 PM


nichevo - it can't be helped


Inevitable?

Yes, technically.  However, when I first heard about nichevo, it wasn't just the phrase "it can't be helped" but also conveyed a sense of helplessness and despair with the fact that no one can help it and no one ever will.

If we communicated with words and pheromones or something we could probably get the meaning out correctly.

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ClintMemo

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Reply #3 on: June 07, 2007, 06:38:04 PM


nichevo - it can't be helped


Inevitable?

Yes, technically.  However, when I first heard about nichevo, it wasn't just the phrase "it can't be helped" but also conveyed a sense of helplessness and despair with the fact that no one can help it and no one ever will.

If we communicated with words and pheromones or something we could probably get the meaning out correctly.

that reminds me of John Malcovich near the end of "Dangerous Liasons" where he kept saying "it's beyond my control"

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eytanz

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Reply #4 on: June 07, 2007, 10:17:27 PM
A few interesting concepts that need to have a single English word that can apply to them:

je ne sais quois - that indefinable something I cannot describe

nichevo - it can't be helped

Am I missing these words?

I think the problem is that these words get their "special" status by being foreign. There's value to using a phrase outside of its own language. There are ways of saying each in English, but they are not the same - because they are in English, they just don't give the same feeling. That's the same reason a lot of legal terminology is in Latin - it's not that no-one thought of translating them to English at any point, but that switching to Latin serves a purpose and lends the concepts a certain impact that they otherwise wouldn't have.

Also, je ne sais quois is four words in French. Why would you expect the English counterpart to be a single word?



slic

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Reply #5 on: June 08, 2007, 12:30:46 AM
Also, je ne sais quois is four words in French. Why would you expect the English counterpart to be a single word?
Unfathomable.

My favourite foreign word is schadenfreude [sp?] - it's German and means the indecent pleasure of someone else's misfortune.  Lisa Simpson taught me that word.



eytanz

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Reply #6 on: June 08, 2007, 01:17:43 AM
Also, je ne sais quois is four words in French. Why would you expect the English counterpart to be a single word?
Unfathomable.

Really?

"Ah, the girl I met last night has that certain unfathomable that I find so attractive" - doesn't quite do it for me.

"unfathomable quality" would be far closer, but it doesn't have the same impact that the French phrase does. And, you know, it's two words.

(Just to be a little less flippant, and a bit more of the linguist that I am, I should point out that je ne sais quois is a noun in English (and I would argue that it is an English word, even though it's origins as a French phrase are transparent), while unfathomable is an adjective.)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 01:23:45 AM by eytanz »



slic

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Reply #7 on: June 08, 2007, 01:24:33 AM
It should have been:
""Ah, the girl I met last night has that certain unfathomableness that I find so attractive" - doesn't quite do it for me.

And in French, "La fille qui j'ai rencontré la nuit passée a cela une certain je ne c'est quoi..." doesn't make much sense either.



eytanz

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Reply #8 on: June 08, 2007, 01:31:30 AM
Ok, I grant that "unfathomableness" works better. But I still insist that it just doesn't feel the same, which is as important for choice of words as their origins.

Also, you might well have missed my edit above since I likely made it while you were responding to me, but it is important to note that the English uses of je ne sais quois has already evolved far past the point where it's a direct lift from French, and it behaves as a noun when used in English sentences, and can well be used for things that its French cognate cannot.



slic

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Reply #9 on: June 08, 2007, 01:37:01 AM
I agree with all your points.  It has far more meaning that the exact words, it sounds better, and imparts a savoir-faire on the speaker ;)



ClintMemo

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Reply #10 on: June 08, 2007, 11:25:34 AM
je ne sais quois also has the wonderfully ironic quality in that most Americans probably don't know what it actually means.  (...and I confess that until I read this thread, I was one of them  :-[)  But, the word still works in context.

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slic

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Reply #11 on: June 08, 2007, 11:29:50 AM
Not trying to sound mean, but I do get a giggle when people will use that phrase or a similar one like plus ca change but they treat it as one word.  It's more because it sounds funny than anything else.



ClintMemo

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Reply #12 on: June 08, 2007, 11:52:11 AM
I don't think I've ever used je ne sais quois because I wouldn't have a clue as to the spelling and given my ability to mangle pronunciations, it might be dangerous for me to try and say it.  (Steve Martin: "Somebody help him. He spoke French!")
I just know I've heard people say things like:
"This movie has many flaws. I don't know why I like it so much. It has that certain je ne sais quois that I find so appealing."   
and then brain says
"Hmmm. There's that word again.  I don't know exactly what it means, but it must be some quality that can only be described by that word.  Even so, I know that he likes this movie, even if he can't tell me why.  I should really go look that word up so I know what it means.  If I don't, I might make myself look like an uneducated idiot in some forum post somewhere.  Oh look, purple spaceships!"

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


Simon Painter

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Reply #13 on: June 08, 2007, 01:50:35 PM
here's another couple of neat ones:

Zeitgeist - It's German, and means 'The spirit of the age'

L'espirit d'escalier - French, and it refers to thinking of something clever to say in an argument you've just left behind.

One more though, and my favorite word of all time :) which is technically an English word but comes from Latin:

Defenestration, the act of throwing someone out of a window.

You have to love any language that has a word like that in it.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

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Listener

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Reply #14 on: June 08, 2007, 03:44:16 PM

Defenestration, the act of throwing someone out of a window.

You have to love any language that has a word like that in it.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

Which begs the question... can we have other forms, like refenestration, or fenestration?

I imagine we're not far from a word like defenestration that means "throwing someone under the bus".

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Simon Painter

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Reply #15 on: June 08, 2007, 03:51:25 PM
Quote
Which begs the question... can we have other forms, like refenestration, or fenestration?

I imagine we're not far from a word like defenestration that means "throwing someone under the bus".

I believe that defenestration was actually coined in order to have a word for a period of Czech history, the Defenestration of Prague, which I think involved the people taking the nobility and throwing them out of windows (and onto spikes, I think).

It's not exactly a proper word, it's just the definition translated into Latin.

Still, you have to love it  ;D

Technically you could have those other forms, but as Defenestration itself isn't exactly a proper word in itself, they probably aren't acceptable English.

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ClintMemo

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Reply #16 on: June 08, 2007, 04:56:32 PM
Hey, it's on dictionary.com, so I say that counts. :P
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defenestration

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bamugo

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Reply #17 on: June 14, 2007, 08:06:24 PM
I don't believe we need proprietary English words for these concepts at all! Part of what makes English such a great language (yeah, I said it) is its amazing ability to assimilate the cool things in other languages.

Let's face it, most of the truly cosmopolitan places in the world (Toronto, New York, London, Sydney) are all English speaking places, so increasingly, English will, borg-like, expand itself by plundering its neighbours! Hooray!

I for one am glad that we're still allowed to be (at least linguistically) colonial. I know that analogy breaks down after 4 seconds' thought, but I don't care, it still sounds cool.



Listener

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Reply #18 on: June 15, 2007, 12:15:06 PM
I don't believe we need proprietary English words for these concepts at all! Part of what makes English such a great language (yeah, I said it) is its amazing ability to assimilate the cool things in other languages.

Let's face it, most of the truly cosmopolitan places in the world (Toronto, New York, London, Sydney) are all English speaking places, so increasingly, English will, borg-like, expand itself by plundering its neighbours! Hooray!

I for one am glad that we're still allowed to be (at least linguistically) colonial. I know that analogy breaks down after 4 seconds' thought, but I don't care, it still sounds cool.

"The English language... not only borrows words from other languages; it has on occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary." -- James Nicoll

Being polyglottal (is that the proper conjugation of "polyglot" anyway?) I believe is one of the most underappreciated and undertaught skills in this country above all other English-speaking countries.  We pay lip service to it, but when it comes right down to it, two years of Spanish class usually gives you a list of rote phrases and little else.  It amuses me that one of the most complicated spoken languages in the world is becoming the language of the intelligensia -- why not one of the East Asian languages?  Japanese has (IMO) a very straightforward form of grammar.  Why can't we use that?

*sigh*  Pardon my running-away-with-the-topic there.

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bamugo

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Reply #19 on: June 15, 2007, 12:23:49 PM
I think you'll find that in the eventual future (perhaps not too far off) the borrowing of other languages' words and phrases will become so common that English may not be recognisable as itself anymore. I predict a future in which the common language of Earth is English-based, but takes 1/4 of its vocabulary from other languages, particularly Asian ones.



ClintMemo

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Reply #20 on: June 15, 2007, 01:40:07 PM
I'm not a linguist, but I think what will happen is that there will be as many languages as there are syntax structures.  We may all end up pulling from the same set of nouns, verbs, etc...

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


bamugo

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Reply #21 on: June 15, 2007, 02:26:54 PM
So the vocabulary will homogenize but the grammar will differ from culture to culture? I don't think I'm understanding you right, could you expand on that? (or maybe a linguist, if we have any, could chime in here!)



eytanz

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Reply #22 on: June 15, 2007, 03:43:33 PM
I'm a linguist. (Edit: Even though that is true, my specialization is in semantics and neurolinguistics and I'm not an expert on either language history or change. I have taken courses on these topics and have discussed them with people who are experts, but I don't want to give the impression that I'm claiming more authority here than I have.)

What ClintMemo is proposing is highly unlikely. Syntax is tied in many ways to the lexicon - they can't change independently. For one, not all languages express the same concepts in the same way. Take the word "hungry". In English, this is an adjective. I can say "I am hungry". In other languages, the same concept would have to be expressed with a noun ("I have hunger", as in French), and I believe there are languages that express this notion with a verb ("I hunger"), though I don't remember which. It would be difficult to borrow these words from one language to another without changing the syntax to match. And this is just one of many, many examples.

More generally, people speak of language borrowings and change as if they are recent things. They are not. Languages have always changed and evolved over time - and it used to be a lot faster. Latin split up and became languages as different as early Italian, French, and Romanian in only several centuries. The Normans invaded England and turned Old English, a pure Germanic language, into the hybrid language that we speak today, with a lexicon that's about half Germanic, half Romance, and a syntax that's unlike any other European language. Then print came, and widespread education, and the process slowed down - once the written word became popular and massively accessible, the changes became more noticable. The 19th century gave rise to nationalism, and that led to a move to homogenize the languages spoke in the newly emerging countries. Languages became codified, but still they changed - read a 19th century novel and compare it to today's speech.

What has changed again, in the last quarter of the 20th century, is that mass media, and the internet, have changed the boundaries of language contact. Once, contact with foreign languages was limited to a relatively small sector of the population. Now, it's becoming easier and easier to be exposed to foreign languages, regardless of financial standing, education, or occupation. The effects of this are just starting to be understood, but they're neither as dramatic or unique as some of the above posts make it sound. Rather, it is the continuation of a process that has been going on throughout the life of the human race - languages have never been static, and never will be, despite the efforts of language codifiers. It is true that the number of languages in the world is on a rapid decline - but this is mostly because the number of societies is decreasing - the languages the world is losing are those spoken by tribes in South America, Africa, and Australia, which are becoming absorbed into larger societies, or wiped out by war and disease. As for the rest, more and more people in the Western world are becoming multi-lingual, speaking several languages, but this can have a lot of outcomes, merger of the languages being a highly unlikely one.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 04:06:31 PM by eytanz »



ClintMemo

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Reply #23 on: June 15, 2007, 05:20:49 PM
What ClintMemo is proposing is highly unlikely. Syntax is tied in many ways to the lexicon - they can't change independently. For one, not all languages express the same concepts in the same way. Take the word "hungry". In English, this is an adjective. I can say "I am hungry". In other languages, the same concept would have to be expressed with a noun ("I have hunger", as in French), and I believe there are languages that express this notion with a verb ("I hunger"), though I don't remember which. It would be difficult to borrow these words from one language to another without changing the syntax to match. And this is just one of many, many examples.

What about Asian languages like Japanese, Chinese (aren't there several varieties of Chinese) or Indian languages like Farsi (sp?) Hindi (sp?)?  I have no idea what the syntax of those languages is like, but how does it compare to Latin languages?  Are there components that exist in some languages that don't exist in others? For example, doesn't some forms of Chinese use the pitch of how you say the word to establish meaning?  There isn't any equivalent to that in English.

I suppose the reason I think the way I do is because I'm a programmer and I compare spoken languages to programming languages.  Trying to learn a programming language with a syntax structure similar to something you already know is not too difficult. Trying to learn programming language in which the syntax structure is alien to anything you've seen before is much more difficult.

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


eytanz

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Reply #24 on: June 15, 2007, 07:10:21 PM
What ClintMemo is proposing is highly unlikely. Syntax is tied in many ways to the lexicon - they can't change independently. For one, not all languages express the same concepts in the same way. Take the word "hungry". In English, this is an adjective. I can say "I am hungry". In other languages, the same concept would have to be expressed with a noun ("I have hunger", as in French), and I believe there are languages that express this notion with a verb ("I hunger"), though I don't remember which. It would be difficult to borrow these words from one language to another without changing the syntax to match. And this is just one of many, many examples.

What about Asian languages like Japanese, Chinese (aren't there several varieties of Chinese) or Indian languages like Farsi (sp?) Hindi (sp?)?  I have no idea what the syntax of those languages is like, but how does it compare to Latin languages?  Are there components that exist in some languages that don't exist in others? For example, doesn't some forms of Chinese use the pitch of how you say the word to establish meaning?  There isn't any equivalent to that in English.

I'm not sure I understand your question - my point wasn't that languages will assimilate in syntax as readily as they do in the lexicon, but rather that the lexicon and the syntax are not fully independent of each other, and that you can't just impose a lexicon from one language on the syntax of another unless they happen to be very similar to begin with. As a general rule, languages don't merge in the way you described - they either influence one another but remain independent, or one is totally supplanted by the other.

So I'm not sure what your point is in the post above - what are those language supposed to be examples of? Certainly, they differ considerably from English - in both lexicon and syntax - but that just makes it less likely that they will acquire a fully English-like lexicon, or vice-versa, and even less likely that some hybrid lexicon will arise that can fit on either syntax.

Anyway, maybe this answers you and maybe it doesn't, I'm not sure.